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Old 09-16-2018, 01:01 PM
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Trump is not the end of the world. Trump gone is not the dawn of a new age of wonderfulness.

Trump is awful. We've had (varying degrees of) awful before. We'll get over it and move on.

This country/world has a hell of a lot more problems than Trump. When Trump is gone, there will still be a lot of other problems. There is plenty that can be done about those other problems with or without Trump. We might as well focus on those other problems and not just wait for Trump to be gone so we can feel better again.

This is a very freeing point of view. I kind of wish more people would try it.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:36 PM
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Yep, we've had worse Presidents. They served before the 24 hour news cycle hyped every story. Think about Grant and the other Presidents in the late 19th century.

Imagine Teddy Roosevelt dealing with CNN. He'd use the Big Stick on those talking heads that jabber endlessly all day long.

I have studied Teddy's Presidency and admire him. But he would have found the modern media very difficult. He had enough headaches with yellow journalism.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-16-2018 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:41 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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He isn't the end of the world. But the fact that 63 million Americans voted for him makes a lot of us think that the US will face very serious threats to democracy and competence in the coming decades. America may not have the human capital to maintain competent western civilization when so many of us abandon all morals and principles to support tribalism.

The fact that much of the world isn't as deranged as America isn't much comfort for those of us who live here.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:44 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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Remember Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed in NY?

It's influenced Presidential elections since Jefferson.
https://library.cqpress.com/cqresear...re19270507_200

The country still thrived and certainly survived.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-16-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:16 PM
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I'm not sure what happened with my link. I saw the full Tammany Hall report that covered all the Presidential elections. It was a very interesting read.

Now it's only giving a outline and asking for a login. I can't imagine why. The link may work if you paste it directly into Chrome.

That's a pretty worthless library link.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-16-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:37 PM
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He is not the end of the world. But, by setting the bar at that level, neither was Hitler.

The world may not end, but the suffering in it may increase. Individuals may die due to lack of access to healthcare that he has cut, due to a lack of response to storms and other natural disasters, due to a lack of protection of vulnerable populations.

Parents may never see their children again, after the were ripped from their arms by agents that prevented them from claiming asylum, and lied to them to tell them that if they gave up their claims, they would be reunited.

Minorities are suffering from an uptick in hate crimes, as the president has normalized racism and bigotry, allowing those who thrive on hate to come out of the shadows.

People will suffer from economic devastation if the economy cracks under the strain of his poorly thought out trade wars.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:13 PM
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Trump is awful. We've had (varying degrees of) awful before. We'll get over it and move on.
Yes. Like a turd, Trump will soon pass.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:15 PM
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Trumps voters will still be here. That is the problem. They will just vote for the next dangerously incompetent, treasonous white nationalist who hoves into their field of vision.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:22 PM
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Trump is simply part of the process of America's collapse into a theocratic/plutocratic white nationalist dictatorship; when he's gone that process will still be as ongoing and unstoppable as it has been for decades. America is over the cliff and headed down the abyss, and it's far too late to stop it.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:19 PM
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The fact that much of the world isn't as deranged as America isn't much comfort for those of us who live here.
Nothing's stopping you from immigrating to somewhere that is more to your liking.

I mean, except for the fact that other countries actually do enforce immigration laws and expect you to prove you will be a productive member of their society before they will let you in. Somehow the idea of America enforcing standards for immigration causes much butthurt, but it is not like other countries have indiscriminate open borders either.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:21 PM
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Nothing's stopping you from immigrating to somewhere that is more to your liking.

I mean, except for the fact that other countries actually do enforce immigration laws and expect you to prove you will be a productive member of their society before they will let you in. Somehow the idea of America enforcing standards for immigration causes much butthurt, but it is not like other countries have indiscriminate open borders either.
The ongoing persecution is agaisnt non-whites in general, not immigrants. Being a citizen won't protect you from ICE brownshirts.
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:09 PM
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Trump doesn’t make me angry. Trump is the symptom, not the cause. THAT makes me angry.
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:24 PM
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Yes. Like a turd, Trump will soon pass.
More like a kidney stone.
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:42 PM
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I cannot imagine any of the presidents in my memory* who I feared would launch a nuclear strike in a fit of pique. Reagan may have been belligerent toward the USSR, but I very much doubt he would have acted rashly. Trump, I'm not so sure.

Pence is diametrically opposed to everything I believe in, but I don't think he'd push the button in a narcissistic rage. A competent president and White House might be better at enacting policies I don't agree with, but I think the threat of a nuclear exchange with North Korea would be miniscule.

Then again, Trump seems to love him some Kim Jong Un, so maybe he'd nuke, I don't know, Canada.

*My memory of presidents goes back to Ford. It's possible Nixon might have gotten that crazy; there are recordings of him talking about using nukes in Vietnam, though in context he might have been pulling Kissinger's leg.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:12 PM
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Yep, we've had worse Presidents. They served before the 24 hour news cycle hyped every story. Think about Grant and the other Presidents in the late 19th century.

Imagine Teddy Roosevelt dealing with CNN. He'd use the Big Stick on those talking heads that jabber endlessly all day long.

I have studied Teddy's Presidency and admire him. But he would have found the modern media very difficult. He had enough headaches with yellow journalism.
The level of corruption in this administration isn't that far from Grant and Harding. But if that was the only problem, Trump certainly be only normally corrupt and vile. He hasn't even had a crisis yet to screw up. Wait until he does, then the bottom will fall out.
Shrub wasn't the end of the world either, but he was to those who died in his needless war in Iraq.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:21 PM
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There is a second paragraph to my original post. In case anyone hadn't noticed.

Yes, Trump voters will still be here. That is one of the many problems that could and should be addressed even now while Trump is still in office.

I am trying to draw attention to the fact that many people are so focused on Trump that they can't seem to see anything beyond that. What comes after resistance?
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:09 PM
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I am trying to draw attention to the fact that many people are so focused on Trump that they can't seem to see anything beyond that. What comes after resistance?
Death. America is in the end stages of sliding into fascism, and we know how that ends up.
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:15 PM
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Nothing's stopping you from immigrating to somewhere that is more to your liking.

I mean, except for the fact that other countries actually do enforce immigration laws and expect you to prove you will be a productive member of their society before they will let you in. Somehow the idea of America enforcing standards for immigration causes much butthurt, but it is not like other countries have indiscriminate open borders either.
Believe me I've thought of it.

Affordable health care that can't be taken away. Sane politics. Stupidity is a bad thing. Mandated employee benefits. Lots of other western nations sound fairly nice.

Also the gop uses immigration as a dog whistle for nativism the same way they use words like thug or inner city as dog whistles for racism. But yes a working immigration policy is good.
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:41 PM
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I am trying to draw attention to the fact that many people are so focused on Trump that they can't seem to see anything beyond that. What comes after resistance?
...of course people can see "beyond the resistance." Are you not listening? Universal healthcare. Better gun control. There has been plenty of talk about what to do next.

But here's the problem.

Quote:
We might as well focus on those other problems and not just wait for Trump to be gone so we can feel better again.
You can't "just wait" for Trump to not be a problem.

Because you can't afford to just wait it out.

The conservatives control the legislature, the executive, and are doing everything in their power to take control of the judiciary. Getting rid of Trump won't bring about the dawn of "a new age of wonderfulness." But it will stop the "rubber stamping" of policy that is devastating communities and will take years to repeal. It will stop the systematic destruction of the United States Federal Government as we knew it. It would hasten the removal of unelected-policy makers like Stephen Miller and Jared Kushner from power. These things are important.

People are more than capable of doing more than one-thing-at-a-time you know.
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:52 PM
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Trump isn't the end of the world (probably - there's still a non-zero chance he might start a nuclear war and literally be the end of the world). But Trump is a major problem. So we should be addressing the problem of Trump being President and doing all we can to fix it. At the very least, let's try to make sure he's only a four year problem rather than an eight year problem.

At best, Trump is doing nothing on problems that we should be addressing. In some cases, Trump is moving us further away from the solution. And Trump is poisoning the well; he's lowering the standards for what's acceptable which will make it easier for future incompetents to become President.
  #21  
Old 09-16-2018, 10:35 PM
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People are more than capable of doing more than one-thing-at-a-time you know.
Some are, indeed.

The problems I am hoping people will start to address, primarily in themselves. are not, however, the ones that you mention. I am more concerned with underlying attitudes towards other people, the (apparently) ineluctable separation of humanity into Us and Them. If there is to be enlightenment, let it be there. The rest will follow; and without this enlightenment no other improvements will last for very long or do very much good.
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Old 09-16-2018, 10:42 PM
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Some are, indeed.

The problems I am hoping people will start to address, primarily in themselves. are not, however, the ones that you mention. I am more concerned with underlying attitudes towards other people, the (apparently) ineluctable separation of humanity into Us and Them.
...what the fuck has this got to do with Trump?

I'm not going to stop fighting people that want to take away the rights of the marginalised. If that means I'm perpetuating the ongoing battle between "us and them" then so be it. I'm not concerned about that at all. Do you want me to stop the fight?

Quote:
If there is to be enlightenment, let it be there.
What the fuck does this sentence even mean?

Quote:
The rest will follow; and without this enlightenment no other improvements will last for very long or do very much good.
The rest will follow what? What is "enlightenment?" What are you talking about?
  #23  
Old 09-17-2018, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
Some are, indeed.

The problems I am hoping people will start to address, primarily in themselves. are not, however, the ones that you mention. I am more concerned with underlying attitudes towards other people, the (apparently) ineluctable separation of humanity into Us and Them. If there is to be enlightenment, let it be there. The rest will follow; and without this enlightenment no other improvements will last for very long or do very much good.
Before the ultra-right took control of the Republican Party, people from both parties worked together in Washington. The sides disagreed, but we had nothing like what that scumbag McConnell has instituted in trying to block Democrats from having any part in making laws.
Back then any Republican marching around near a Johnson or Kennedy speech with a rifle would have been considered a wacko, not the mainstream. And probably would have been arrested.
Let's not pretend that both sides are responsible for this.

And there is no enlightenment when one side keeps the shades drawn and watches only the darkness of the ultra-right.

Last edited by Voyager; 09-17-2018 at 12:01 AM.
  #24  
Old 09-17-2018, 12:07 AM
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Trump isn't the end of the world (probably - there's still a non-zero chance he might start a nuclear war and literally be the end of the world). But Trump is a major problem. So we should be addressing the problem of Trump being President and doing all we can to fix it. At the very least, let's try to make sure he's only a four year problem rather than an eight year problem.

At best, Trump is doing nothing on problems that we should be addressing. In some cases, Trump is moving us further away from the solution. And Trump is poisoning the well; he's lowering the standards for what's acceptable which will make it easier for future incompetents to become President.
I wish he were only doing nothing. He is making things worse. So are his climate-change denying friends.
North Carolina Republicans passed a law forbidding predictions of sea level rise inconsistent with "historical data." In other words, you had to ignore climate change. Unfortunately, not from the Onion.
This despite that research centers in North Carolina did excellent work on this subject.
If there were any justice, the morons who voted for this bill will get drowned in the rising waters.
And Trump and his EPA minions are trying the same thing nationally.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:08 AM
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He is not the end of the world. But, by setting the bar at that level, neither was Hitler.
That sort of statement only helps Trump.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:09 AM
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Trump is a symptom that the US is broken, corrupt and irredeemably ignorant.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:27 AM
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Trumps voters will still be here. That is the problem. They will just vote for the next dangerously incompetent, treasonous white nationalist who hoves into their field of vision.
+1
If Mueller finds there is a verifiable link between it will be a get out of jail free card for his supporters.

Yes it's as murky as hell and the stink starts from the head, but the Russian interference in 2016 is a bit about Cosy Bear and Fancy Bear getting their jollies and a lot about oligarchs wanting their accounts and assets unfrozen.

But the domestic touchstones aren't affectedand if it brings down Trump the supporter base will probably think "We are on the right direction, just he wasn't the right guy" and they'll wait on the arrival of the next plain spoken, populist, nationalist, non-swamp dwelling christian white male to MAGA,A.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:36 AM
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Its taken Trump to make George W Bush look good.

Who is Trump's Trump? Anyone you guys can think off who will take over in 2033 and make us miss the Donald?
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:02 AM
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Yes, Trump will be gone relatively soon, but Trump voters we will have with us for many decades to come. The problem isn't 1 person but 60 million and more.
  #30  
Old 09-17-2018, 10:43 AM
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Trump is a symptom that the US is broken, corrupt and irredeemably ignorant.
Donald Trump is a symptom that Donald Trump shouldn't be President.

Saying everything is broken is an idea conservatives want to sell. If they convince people that everyone is guilty, it takes the focus off their guilt.

It's a lie. There's not a general problem in American politics. We have a specific problem; the modern conservative movement. Get them out of power and you'd see ninety-nine percent of our political problems disappear.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:49 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Donald Trump is a symptom that Donald Trump shouldn't be President.

Saying everything is broken is an idea conservatives want to sell. If they convince people that everyone is guilty, it takes the focus off their guilt.

It's a lie. There's not a general problem in American politics. We have a specific problem; the modern conservative movement. Get them out of power and you'd see ninety-nine percent of our political problems disappear.
Donald Trump won a primary against several more experienced candidates because republican voters liked his naked racism and how emotionally unhinged he is. Nothing is stopping them from voting for another candidate who is just as bad.

The problem is gop voters. In between all the white authoritarians moving to the gop, fifty years of the southern strategy, lead poisoning among older generations and a propaganda echo chamber we now have a huge conservative movement that is morally and intellectually bankrupt, and a major threat to western civilization. All the criticisms the right has against Muslims, moderate and liberal Americans have those same fears and criticisms against the modern right. They are religious extremists. They don't value democracy. They make excuses for crime and terrorism. They threaten western values. They don't respect women and minorities, Etc.

I predict they will pick someone worse than Trump in 2028. Really a lot of us are just hoping as the silent generation and baby boomers die off, so will the radicalism in American politics. Something like three quarters of the tea party are over 50 years old. So every decade, about 1/3 of the gop base dies off which like it or not is good (it was also good when the Segregation forever generation in the south died off too, just as it was good when the slave holding generation in the south died off). But who knows. Generation X and the millennials may sadly turn out to be just as radicalized.
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  #32  
Old 09-17-2018, 11:53 AM
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I think my biggest worry is whether Trump voters will accept him not being there anymore? Is there any doubt that if Trump loses in 2020 that he won't cry 'rigged?' Is there any chance that if he loses, he'll go off quietly into that good night to ponder imponderables? Is it far more likely that he will use his platform to delegitimize whomever comes next? How will his loyal followers respond? I'm not sure that it will be in a good, positive way that will benefit American institutions. He is the leader of a mob and mobs don't just disappear when their leader loses. Mobs tend to do nasty horrible things instead. I'm just not sure how his mob will respond and I know with a bit of certainty that he will be encouraging its worst tendencies and not its best.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:26 PM
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Sure, but it's abundantly clear that Trump doesn't have a plan. Will he get on social media and say all sorts of outlandish things? Yes, yes he will. Will the things he says result in concrete action by his supporters? No, or at least mostly no.

The modern conservative movement delivers on one thing: tax cuts for the rich. Everything else is window dressing. Trump has lots of people in the conservative establishment holding their noses and going along to get along, because while Trump can't be counted on to do anything in particular, he can certainly be counted on to deliver tax cuts for the rich. However, any Republican placeholder can also be counted on to deliver tax cuts for the rich, and those placeholders don't cause trouble.

Trump has a base of supporters, the famous deplorables. He has absolutely no base of supporters in the upper ranks of the conservative movement. Sure, they'll defend him to the death, as long as he's still president. The second he stops being president is the second they drop him.
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