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Old 09-16-2018, 12:33 PM
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Hurricanes make men beat their wives to death.

No, really.

The head of Fema says it, so it must be true. Who could possibly have seen that coming?

Quote:
“You know, the other thing that goes on,” Long added. “Spousal abuse goes through the roof. You can’t blame spousal abuse after a disaster on anybody.”
I learn something new and surprising every day lately.
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:47 PM
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So, for context, since that link doesn't work for me without disabling my ad blocker, this is an attempt to discredit the number of deaths in Puerto Rico attributed to last year's hurricanes. This FEMA character was weaseling all over Meet the Press this morning, apparently. Part of that was saying that deaths due to spousal abuse were being counted.

Like everything else in politics these days, this will be one of those things where people believe what they want to believe, and the facts will be relegated to a footnote, if that.
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:49 PM
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Based upon my experience working a 9-1-1 center through several hurricanes, yes, domestic violence goes up. It may take some time for the level of reports to return to baseline.

My guess is that arguments that normally might end up with one party leaving the premises end up escalating further since leaving is not practical in the face of a hurricane.

There is enough of an anecdotal connection that the World Health Organization published a report on Violence and Disasters (pdf at link).
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
So, for context, since that link doesn't work for me without disabling my ad blocker, this is an attempt to discredit the number of deaths in Puerto Rico attributed to last year's hurricanes. This FEMA character was weaseling all over Meet the Press this morning, apparently. Part of that was saying that deaths due to spousal abuse were being counted.

Like everything else in politics these days, this will be one of those things where people believe what they want to believe, and the facts will be relegated to a footnote, if that.
Yep. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/b...in-puerto-rico
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Based upon my experience working a 9-1-1 center through several hurricanes, yes, domestic violence goes up. It may take some time for the level of reports to return to baseline.

My guess is that arguments that normally might end up with one party leaving the premises end up escalating further since leaving is not practical in the face of a hurricane.

There is enough of an anecdotal connection that the World Health Organization published a report on Violence and Disasters (pdf at link).
I can see that. During a storm or any sort of crisis, tensions are high, and people can be irrational and do irrational things.

But would the problem be lessened or exacerbated if, after a day, or a week, or a month, the utilities are still out, the roads are still impassible, the stores are still empty?
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:37 PM
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I'm not disputing the fact that domestic violence increases in the aftermath of a natural disaster. I'm disputing the claim that "You can't blame spousal abuse after a disaster on anybody." Because I have no problem blaming the person who is abusing their spouse.
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I'm not disputing the fact that domestic violence increases in the aftermath of a natural disaster. I'm disputing the claim that "You can't blame spousal abuse after a disaster on anybody." Because I have no problem blaming the person who is abusing their spouse.
I think that the point was that you cannot blame that on anybody [in the trump administration]. That is as far as they are concerned about spousal abuse, that they are not the ones blamed.
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:08 PM
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The actual quote:


Quote:
“I don’t know why the studies were done,” the FEMA director shrugged. “In my opinion, what we’ve got to do is figure out why people die from direct deaths, which is the wind, the water and the waves — you know, building collapsing, which is probably where the 65 number came from.”
“And then there’s indirect deaths,” he continued. “So, George Washington study looked at what happened six months after fact. And what happened is — and even in [Hurricane Florence] — you might see more deaths indirectly occur as time goes on because people have heart attacks due to stress, the fall off their house trying to fix their roof. They die in care crashes because they went through an intersection where the stop lights weren’t working.”
“You know, the other thing that goes on,” Long added. “Spousal abuse goes through the roof. You can’t blame spousal abuse after a disaster on anybody.”

Not exactly a mustache-twirling villain, then.
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Old 09-16-2018, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
The actual quote:





Not exactly a mustache-twirling villain, then.
No, he's just defending trump's assertion that Puerto Rico was a tremendous success.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:47 PM
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Supporting Trump, and particularly covering for or trying to justify his lies, indeed makes a person a mustache-twirling villain, not an ordinary person trying to do his job.
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Old 09-16-2018, 04:58 PM
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"Sorry I broke your jaw, honey, but you can't blame me. It was the hurricane."
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
The actual quote:





Not exactly a mustache-twirling villain, then.
Yes, it is. If you are going to back up for context you need to back all the way up. It’s fucking disgusting.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:35 PM
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I admit I could not read the story (as I refuse to disable my ad blocker), but can I ask one thing? Does the story actually say hurricanes make husbands beat their wives to death? (per the OP's claim) Or just that domestic violence increases?

I'm wondering as I am not aware that all domestic violence cases involve beating a wife to death.


And--my parents (now deceased) had a history of domestic violence (when I was a kid in the late 60s). But both of them liked to slug it out. So I don't take domestic violence lightly. I remember hiding in the closet or under the bed when my mom was the one who was the aggressor and they slugged it ou.

Anyway--just curious about the article saying hurricanes make men beat their wives to death.

Last edited by TheCuse; 09-16-2018 at 05:35 PM.
  #14  
Old 09-16-2018, 05:47 PM
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He's saying that the number of deaths isn't FEMA's fault, because (among other things) domestic violence goes up. So, yes, he's talking about men beating wives to death.

And if roofs getting ripped off and stress and non-working traffic signals cause deaths, too, then yes, absolutely FEMA should be helping to fix roofs and stress and traffic signals, and not just focus on the "direct deaths".
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
The actual quote:





Not exactly a mustache-twirling villain, then.
An idiot, then, at a minimum. What he doesn't mention are the hundreds of deaths because people didn't have access to food, water, health care or electricity or the basic means of taking care of themselves that they had before the hurricanes.

He seems to be saying that the purpose of FEMA is only to prevent deaths during the actual event, and the recovery and cleanup is not particularly important. So, like I said, at a minimum he is an idiot and not even remotely worthy of his job.
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Old 09-16-2018, 06:28 PM
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Ok I know I'm not crazy, didn't Colibri post in this thread and then his posting magically disappeared?
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Old 09-16-2018, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
My guess is that arguments that normally might end up with one party leaving the premises end up escalating further since leaving is not practical in the face of a hurricane.
So leaving is not an option during a hurricane.



Things will escalate to breaking point only if she's like my wife who, on the average, leaves me for good once a month.

Last edited by Sloe Moe; 09-16-2018 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:18 PM
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Barometric pressure?
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
An idiot, then, at a minimum. What he doesn't mention are the hundreds of deaths because people didn't have access to food, water, health care or electricity or the basic means of taking care of themselves that they had before the hurricanes.

He seems to be saying that the purpose of FEMA is only to prevent deaths during the actual event, and the recovery and cleanup is not particularly important. So, like I said, at a minimum he is an idiot and not even remotely worthy of his job.
Well, one thing that came out of the Maria mess even before this latest slapfest was indeed that an important policy decision must be made, on what is and what isn't and what should be FEMA's mandate: whether coordination of immediate response (the current position), or being responsible for the complete scope of making lives whole.

But back to Brock: sure, strictly speaking he is right in the part that up until the particular case of post-Maria Puerto Rico, the death tally calculation had always been reported as those who perish as direct or at most one-step-removed proximate effect of the disaster, as opposed to the increased total mortality as a result of prolonged stresses and deprivations during the rebuilding aftermath. He then, in a way that so beautifully reflects this Administration, calls upon an example that while observationally true, only makes them look even worse.

Now, that about casualties could be explained calmly and sensibly if the well had not gotten so effectively poisoned by a Head of Government who can't resist being drawn into a twitwar with half-remembered information, can't bear to correct himself, scorns nuance and takes it personally if someone disagrees with him.

(Oh, and Long knows quite well "why the studies were done": because nobody believed the old style numbers published by the Government of Puerto Rico (THEY count the dead, NOT the Feds) so GOPR said "OK, we'll bring nonpolitical outside experts".)

The sad thing here is that FEMA had admitted earlier in the summer they were entirely unprepared, changes to procedures were being proposed and Congress was convening hearings about it. Now it has turned into all about Trump, and now everyone is gonna dig in and double down, while we need the recovery work to go on NOW, we can't wait for promises for 2021.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 09-16-2018 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:36 PM
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Poof.
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  #21  
Old 09-17-2018, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I'm not disputing the fact that domestic violence increases in the aftermath of a natural disaster. I'm disputing the claim that "You can't blame spousal abuse after a disaster on anybody." Because I have no problem blaming the person who is abusing their spouse.
I'm also perfectly happy to put partial blame on the people who are keeping the stores empty, the houses uninhabitable and the streets impassable.




... genuine question, because in my last recent visits to the US this kind of thing didn't come up...

Over There, when someone who had a restraining order kills their ex, is that viewed as a failure of "the system"? In Spain it is, but maybe the whole Individualism thing means y'all don't. People are responsible for their actions, but in our concept, society has the duty to prevent damages whenever there is a known risk; it's part of what makes something a "society" and not just "a strongman, his henchmen and the people they cower".
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Last edited by Nava; 09-17-2018 at 12:55 AM.
  #22  
Old 09-17-2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I think that the point was that you cannot blame that on anybody [in the trump administration]. That is as far as they are concerned about spousal abuse, that they are not the ones blamed.
Yes, I understand that this is just the Trump administration trying to shift blame away from its own incompetence. But I think it's worth noting how they chose to do it.

It would have been easy for them to say that they weren't to blame for spousal abuse because the blame for that goes on the abusers. That would have absolved the administration.

But instead they want to put the blame for spousal abuse on the natural disaster. They want to avoid the blame themselves but they also want to protect the abusers.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:07 AM
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I'm also perfectly happy to put partial blame on the people who are keeping the stores empty, the houses uninhabitable and the streets impassable.
I blame the inadequate government response for the terrible conditions people are living in. But I still hold people responsible for their own actions as well. Nobody has to respond to terrible living conditions by beating up their spouse. That's still a choice they made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
... genuine question, because in my last recent visits to the US this kind of thing didn't come up...

Over There, when someone who had a restraining order kills their ex, is that viewed as a failure of "the system"? In Spain it is, but maybe the whole Individualism thing means y'all don't. People are responsible for their actions, but in our concept, society has the duty to prevent damages whenever there is a known risk; it's part of what makes something a "society" and not just "a strongman, his henchmen and the people they cower".
My personal opinion is that it's generally seen as a failure by the system. I'm basing this on how situations like this are portrayed in popular culture.

I feel it's part of our Individualism ideal. A movie will show somebody being harassed by a vengeful spouse and then show that the system's response is inadequate to deal with it. So the victim has to step up and handle their own problem by confronting their abuser and resolving the situation.

It's part of American culture; the idea that you have to look out for yourself rather than being part of a society that collectively looks out for everyone in the society.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 09-17-2018 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:08 AM
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Huh. And here I thought it was football that made men beat their wives.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:26 PM
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The actual quote:


Not exactly a mustache-twirling villain, then.
Charitably, VERY charitably, inelegantly stated. However, there is the choice to say it at all.

Clearly he is trying to downplay the numbers. If my employee were to try to downplay numbers to me, I would want to hear specifics. If you are going to tell me that the total number contained murders hidden in the fog of chaos, I would want to be damn sure that the magnitude was significant enough to warrant even mentioning.

These folks seem to keep forgetting these are US Citizens that died in thousands.

But frankly, I don't expect that level of integrity from this administration or this party. They are quite fond of relying on "framing narratives", rather than reporting factual information.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:26 AM
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BTW I hope someone will think to commission (or to look up if there are) 30/60/90-day/6-month mortality-rate statistical studies of various other disasters, so that we can see some comparatives.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 09-18-2018 at 07:27 AM.
  #27  
Old 09-18-2018, 07:35 AM
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My personal opinion is that it's generally seen as a failure by the system. I'm basing this on how situations like this are portrayed in popular culture.

I feel it's part of our Individualism ideal. A movie will show somebody being harassed by a vengeful spouse and then show that the system's response is inadequate to deal with it. So the victim has to step up and handle their own problem by confronting their abuser and resolving the situation.

It's part of American culture; the idea that you have to look out for yourself rather than being part of a society that collectively looks out for everyone in the society.
That's not a failure by the system, that's "why have a system at all, I will solve everything by hitting anybody involved."
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I feel it's part of our Individualism ideal. A movie will show somebody being harassed by a vengeful spouse and then show that the system's response is inadequate to deal with it. So the victim has to step up and handle their own problem by confronting their abuser and resolving the situation.

It's part of American culture; the idea that you have to look out for yourself rather than being part of a society that collectively looks out for everyone in the society.
I think we should disentangle the tropes that are used in film and television to create narrative tension from what really plays out in U.S. society. Everyone knows that a restraining order doesn't mean you get your own cop stationed outside your door to keep the person away.

In actual day-to-day life, most people still expect and rely upon the local police to serve a purpose, and in reality, it varies widely, and depends upon the resources of the particular local police (as well as their training, and internal policy), how quickly and adequately they respond to a call about domestic disputes and restraining order violations.

It's a cliche to talk about "American individualism" meaning that--in daily life--everyone just completely expects the police to be useless, and expects every conflict in their lives to play out as the exciting dramatic conclusion to a suspense narrative, where they have to confront the offender on their own, saving themselves just in the nick of time, only to have the cops show up after the victim has taking care of it by him- or herself.

However, some people do confuse daily life with film and TV narrative tropes--they're the ones that say, "The only solution for a bad guy with a guy is a good guy with a gun."
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:08 AM
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That's not a failure by the system, that's "why have a system at all, I will solve everything by hitting anybody involved."
It's not about hitting people. The ideal is that people should rely on their own efforts rather than expect other people to take care of them.

I'll grant you that many people push the idea too far. They choose to ignore the support they receive from society and claim that they're entirely self-made. And many people also use individualism as an excuse for not helping other people.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:19 AM
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I think we should disentangle the tropes that are used in film and television to create narrative tension from what really plays out in U.S. society. Everyone knows that a restraining order doesn't mean you get your own cop stationed outside your door to keep the person away.

In actual day-to-day life, most people still expect and rely upon the local police to serve a purpose, and in reality, it varies widely, and depends upon the resources of the particular local police (as well as their training, and internal policy), how quickly and adequately they respond to a call about domestic disputes and restraining order violations.

It's a cliche to talk about "American individualism" meaning that--in daily life--everyone just completely expects the police to be useless, and expects every conflict in their lives to play out as the exciting dramatic conclusion to a suspense narrative, where they have to confront the offender on their own, saving themselves just in the nick of time, only to have the cops show up after the victim has taking care of it by him- or herself.

However, some people do confuse daily life with film and TV narrative tropes--they're the ones that say, "The only solution for a bad guy with a guy is a good guy with a gun."
Society isn't just based on what happens. Society is based on our collective beliefs. And popular culture has a greater role in forming beliefs than actual events do.

Take your example of guns. How many people have actually seen a gun used to shoot at somebody in real life? But everybody has "seen" a gun used to shoot somebody hundreds, if not thousands, of times in movies and television shows. So our collective opinions about how guns are used is formed far more by what's on the screen than what happens in real life.

People then turn around and behave based on what they believe is true. So beliefs that arise from fiction then manifest in the real world.
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