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Old 09-15-2018, 07:13 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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Best designed punt return, trick play I've seen in a long time.



Punt returner never signaled a fair catch.
Whistle hadn't blown. Psst, it's a live ball. Fake out and a TD
FUCKING AWESOME!

https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...ansas-matchup/

That's why I love college sports. Never know what these coaches will come up with.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-15-2018 at 07:15 PM.
  #2  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:18 PM
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Very gutsy. He could have easily been crushed.
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Old 09-15-2018, 07:47 PM
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It'll definitely put the Ark defenders on their toes going forward. But they can't get carried away.

Tackling a punt returner on a signaled fair catch is a penalty.

It can be tricky seeing the punt returner signal.
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Old 09-15-2018, 07:52 PM
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Your link didn't work for me but it's easy to find elsewhere. Crazy!
  #5  
Old 09-15-2018, 08:01 PM
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Why am I thinking the name in the playbook might be "Concussion Protocol?" If the coverage isn't fooled...OWWWW.
  #6  
Old 09-15-2018, 11:28 PM
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Your link didn't work for me but it's easy to find elsewhere. Crazy!
Me either, it worked here:

https://sports.yahoo.com/north-texas...203941051.html
  #7  
Old 09-16-2018, 12:02 AM
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Risky in the long term isn't it? The whole point of a fair catch is to prevent injury. Pretending to fair catch is sort of exploiting a rule designed for player safety. Fun to watch, but the consequences might not be so fun.
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:22 AM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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I expect that the NCAA will crack down on this in some fashion quickly. It encourages a punt defense not to give the benefit of the doubt to the receiver. That has the potential for serious injury. In essence, the receiver gave up playing; he should have been considered down at that point.
  #9  
Old 09-16-2018, 12:55 AM
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Risky in the long term isn't it? The whole point of a fair catch is to prevent injury. Pretending to fair catch is sort of exploiting a rule designed for player safety. Fun to watch, but the consequences might not be so fun.
If he'd actually signaled for a fair catch, the play would have blown dead once he successfully caught the ball. And, at least in the NFL (I'm not sure about the NCAA), if he'd then tried to run with it, it would have been a penalty.

I've seen similar plays in other sports, including the hidden-ball play in baseball, in which a player takes advantage of other players assuming a certain routine, and not paying attention. On this play, the coverage players never heard a whistle, they just assumed.

And, yes, it probably does invite greater chance of injury, and will likely be quickly addressed by a new rule.
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:08 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Gutsy, for sure.

OTOH... how about if the defense upon an "apparent" fair catch stops charging "for the kill" but does not stand down and get out of the way until they are positive they hear the whistle or the receiver does something...

Last edited by JRDelirious; 09-16-2018 at 12:10 PM.
  #11  
Old 09-16-2018, 12:43 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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Gutsy, for sure.

OTOH... how about if the defense upon an "apparent" fair catch stops charging "for the kill" but does not stand down and get out of the way until they are positive they hear the whistle or the receiver does something...
I have seen players just touch the punt returner. That contact should rule the ball dead.

Or as you mentioned at least block his path until the referee confirms the play is dead.

I watched the coach's post game presser. They had designed and practiced this trick play.

North Texas State is in the USA conference and were playing a SEC team. That TD could have made all the difference in the outcome of a tough game.

Instead, Arkansas sucked and got blown out. North Texas should have saved the trick play should have been saved for game that was closer.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-16-2018 at 12:47 PM.
  #12  
Old 09-16-2018, 02:27 PM
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One problem is, it looked like the receiver was waving teammates away, and some of the kicking team players may have thought that was a fair catch signal. (Tip: if it's not (a) just one hand, (b) over the head, and (c) waved from side to side, it's not a fair catch signal.) I have seen a few officials call a wave-off signal as an invalid fair catch signal as well.

Then again, you can teach the players to "play the whistle" all you want, but the minute one of them gets called for a late hit because they couldn't stop in time after a legitimate fair catch, that goes out the window.
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:02 PM
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I have only a duffer's knowledge of football - how exactly would a genuine fair catch signal have looked? What I saw him do was king of jump up and down in place twice, and then everyone walked slowly away from him. What should the defenders have been looking for to make sure it was a fair catch?
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:19 PM
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Here is an example. Skip to 40 seconds in the video.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_catch
Quote:
A player wishing to make a fair catch signals his intent by extending one arm above his head and waving it while the kicked ball is in flight. The kicking team must allow the player an opportunity to make the catch without interference.
https://youtu.be/XZHlqAiFpNY

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-16-2018 at 03:20 PM.
  #15  
Old 09-16-2018, 04:18 PM
Bijou Drains Bijou Drains is offline
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what rule change can prevent this?
  #16  
Old 09-16-2018, 04:48 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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Any rule can be changed. They could eliminate the option for a run on the punt return. Every punt return would be a fair catch.

But why?

Fake punt returns have been tried for decades. They rarely work. It's not easy to fool the kicking team.

The penalty for a late hit on a punt returner is severe. The defense is trained not to tackle the punt returner unless he's running with the ball.

Punt returns are a big element of the game. Shifting field position or even a TD.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-16-2018 at 04:53 PM.
  #17  
Old 09-16-2018, 05:14 PM
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You can also have a fake punt.

The punter takes the snap and runs with it or passes it. It's potentially a first down if the ball gets to the marker. Or a TD.

There's a lot of strategy in football. It's a lot more than guys tackling each other.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-16-2018 at 05:19 PM.
  #18  
Old 09-16-2018, 07:20 PM
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Any rule can be changed. They could eliminate the option for a run on the punt return. Every punt return would be a fair catch.
Or, more realistically, they could make a rule that that sort of deception (i.e., playing possum to simulate a fair catch) is unsportsmanlike conduct.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:07 PM
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Or, more realistically, they could make a rule that that sort of deception (i.e., playing possum to simulate a fair catch) is unsportsmanlike conduct.
Or more simply if the returner appears to give up an attempt to move forward the ref could blow the play dead.
  #20  
Old 09-16-2018, 08:17 PM
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Or, more realistically, they could make a rule that that sort of deception (i.e., playing possum to simulate a fair catch) is unsportsmanlike conduct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Or more simply if the returner appears to give up an attempt to move forward the ref could blow the play dead.
This. This type of trick play is taking advantage of a rule specifically designed to protect players and if it's not followed in good faith it puts players at risk.
I can totally imagine the next team they play thinking "I'd rather get a penalty than get burned on TV so I'm hitting the shit outta this guy"
  #21  
Old 09-16-2018, 08:38 PM
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I'm not a fan of any trick football play that results in half the players not realizing they're still involved in a football play.
  #22  
Old 09-16-2018, 09:34 PM
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This. This type of trick play is taking advantage of a rule specifically designed to protect players and if it's not followed in good faith it puts players at risk.
I can totally imagine the next team they play thinking "I'd rather get a penalty than get burned on TV so I'm hitting the shit outta this guy"
Yeah, I'm not particularly comfortable with this type of trick play that takes advantage of rules there for safety reasons. I do like the punt fake-out style of return, though, when it works. Punter kicks to the left, but all the players of the return team run to the right to fake-out the punting team, like this Rams-Seahawks one (although I've seen a number of versions of this. Here's the Bears pulling it off against the Packers, except it was taken back on a penalty.)

Last edited by pulykamell; 09-16-2018 at 09:36 PM.
  #23  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:22 AM
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Or more simply if the returner appears to give up an attempt to move forward the ref could blow the play dead.
I think the player does not make a football move within 2 seconds of catching the ball, the ball should be blown dead. Or let the defender pat the guy on the shoulder pads if he isn't moving and have it count for a tackle.
  #24  
Old 09-18-2018, 01:06 PM
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Play works a lot better in college, with their rules on targeting. What if the Arkansas guy blew him up? You know the Razorback would have been ejected for targeting. Even if the Razorback had just rugby-tackled him, if the North Texas return man had made a furtive fair catch signal, out goes the Razorback for the rest of that game too. And probably the next one.

Lot of fun to watch though, I have to admit.

You probably get around this by ruling that a fair catch signal has to be made for something like a continuous second or two, with one hand unambiguously waved above the head.
  #25  
Old 09-18-2018, 01:47 PM
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Maybe the returner has to pull out a flag, like a challenge flag, but make it bright neon pink.
  #26  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:58 PM
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Risky in the long term isn't it? The whole point of a fair catch is to prevent injury. Pretending to fair catch is sort of exploiting a rule designed for player safety. Fun to watch, but the consequences might not be so fun.
I agree with this assessment and I did not like the play when I saw it. I'm all for trickery, don't get me wrong. But I'm not sure what the coverage team is supposed to do there. Not give him the benefit of the doubt and just blow him up, risking injury and penalty?
  #27  
Old 09-22-2018, 06:42 AM
Horatius Horatius is offline
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what rule change can prevent this?


You could use the no-yards rule that the Canadian Football League uses.

Quote:
no yards
A penalty against the kicking team: all offside (sense 2) players must be at least five yards from the ball when it is first touched by a member of the receiving team. In amateur rules, no yards is always a 15-yard penalty; in CFL rules, the penalty is reduced to five yards if the ball hits the ground before being touched.

This forces the kicking team to slow down just prior to contact, giving the returner a fair chance to catch the ball, but also avoids the risk of injury. It also means that every kick return is an actual run, with all the possibilities that includes.

In a lot of cases, the fair catch rule has meant that the kickoff is barely more than a ritual, this rule keeps it as an actual play, that can affect the game.
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:44 PM
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You could use the no-yards rule that the Canadian Football League uses.
The NCAA used to have a similar rule -- they called it the "halo" rule, and members of the punt coverage team needed to be at least 2 yards away from the receiver until he caught the ball.

They got rid of the rule in 2003, stating ''The 2-yard restricted area provided a sense of false security for the kick receiver."

http://a.espncdn.com/ncf/news/2003/0218/1510936.html
  #29  
Old 09-22-2018, 04:05 PM
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I'm having a hard time seeing how that actually managed to work. There was only a second or less between the receiver catching the ball, and the other team deciding not to tackle him, and his range of options in that second was very subtle. In a real fair catch, there'd be more time, since the other team would make their decision as soon as they saw the signal, but not so here.

Or is it just that fair catches have become so common that everyone just always assumes that it's going to be a fair catch? If that's the case, then any play where the receiver decides to run with it would always be a trick play.
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:53 PM
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There was only a second or less between the receiver catching the ball, and the other team deciding not to tackle him . . .
It's a little more comprehensible from the end zone camera view (second half of the video). You can sense the defender reading the return man's body language, and it's the body language of a guy making a fair catch. (Square up, both hands on the ball, not eyeballing the field.) It's subtle but enough to be effective.
  #31  
Old 09-22-2018, 10:59 PM
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I think the player does not make a football move within 2 seconds of catching the ball, the ball should be blown dead. Or let the defender pat the guy on the shoulder pads if he isn't moving and have it count for a tackle.
That sounds good. I imagine if the AK guys lit that fucker up, clean legal hit, they still would have got the wrath of the stripers for hitting a "defenseless player".

Bullshit Trick Play. Should be not allowed.
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:21 PM
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Here is a link (albeit a bad YouTube one) of Terrell Buckley doing this for FSU in 2011. I could have sworn it was Deion Sanders.
https://youtu.be/jxnqee-IEoY
  #33  
Old 09-23-2018, 12:24 AM
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Here is a link (albeit a bad YouTube one) of Terrell Buckley doing this for FSU in 2011. I could have sworn it was Deion Sanders.
https://youtu.be/jxnqee-IEoY
The video was posted in 2011, but the play itself would have been from sometime between 1989 and 1991 (Buckley's years at FSU). Interestingly, in that video, there weren't any defenders near him (unlike the play this year), so I'm assuming that his "fake" served to make the oncoming coverage team (who were still some distance away from him) slow down or relax.

I mostly remember Buckley for being a total bust when the Packers drafted him. They picked him #5 overall, then, after two seasons, traded him to Miami for "past considerations" (i.e., "please take this fool off of our hands").

Last edited by kenobi 65; 09-23-2018 at 12:27 AM.
  #34  
Old 09-23-2018, 01:15 AM
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The better one was in the NFL, where the return man ran to the wrong side of the field, looking like he was following the ball and another player on the opposite side of the field caught the ball and took off with it. Coverage was drawn away from the player who was actually returning the ball. I saw this happen twice.
  #35  
Old 09-23-2018, 09:56 AM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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The better one was in the NFL, where the return man ran to the wrong side of the field, looking like he was following the ball and another player on the opposite side of the field caught the ball and took off with it. Coverage was drawn away from the player who was actually returning the ball. I saw this happen twice.
If I'm understanding you right, I reference it in post #22 with two examples (one that was a touchdown; the other went back because of a penalty.)

Here are the links again, for anyone interested:


Last edited by pulykamell; 09-23-2018 at 09:57 AM.
  #36  
Old 09-23-2018, 10:36 AM
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The NCAA used to have a similar rule -- they called it the "halo" rule, and members of the punt coverage team needed to be at least 2 yards away from the receiver until he caught the ball.

They got rid of the rule in 2003, stating ''The 2-yard restricted area provided a sense of false security for the kick receiver."

http://a.espncdn.com/ncf/news/2003/0218/1510936.html

I can see 2 yards not making much difference, but in the CFL, it's 5 yards. It seems to work well, we don't see the returners getting plastered very often.

You can see a couple of no-yards situations in this rather odd play:

https://www.cfl.ca/2017/08/26/intern...-als-punt-off/
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Last edited by Horatius; 09-23-2018 at 10:37 AM.
  #37  
Old Yesterday, 10:22 AM
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Intergalactic Gladiator Intergalactic Gladiator is offline
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
If I'm understanding you right, I reference it in post #22 with two examples (one that was a touchdown; the other went back because of a penalty.)

Here are the links again, for anyone interested:
Quote:
like this Rams-Seahawks one (although I've seen a number of versions of this. Here's the Bears pulling it off against the Packers, except it was taken back on a penalty.)
Seahawks pulled this on the Bears two years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0u26Ygv1aU

Bears did it to the Vikings last year:

https://youtu.be/XY0PNxEEEvE
  #38  
Old Yesterday, 10:38 AM
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Were I the captain of Arkansas' special punt team, I would have made him pay dearly for that with the very next punt he fielded.

Yeah, I know a 15 yard personal foul penalty is normally a very bad thing to take, but sometimes you have to send a message.
  #39  
Old Yesterday, 12:39 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Seahawks pulled this on the Bears two years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0u26Ygv1aU

Bears did it to the Vikings last year:

https://youtu.be/XY0PNxEEEvE
I find it interesting how often this actually seems to work (OK, I guess four examples is not "often," but I mean, I don't remember seeing the opposite. Are there any examples of it going wrong, as in the receiving team fakes one way but the entire kicking team is not fooled and swarms around the correct player. I guess if it did happen, it wouldn't be as dramatic or noticeable as when there's a complete fake-out.)

Last edited by pulykamell; Yesterday at 12:40 PM.
  #40  
Old Yesterday, 01:50 PM
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I think the return fake has to happen on a tall, fairly short punt. The fake receiver has to be farther upfield from the actual receiver so that the coverage team mostly gets pulled past him. And if the hang time is too short or the ball comes down closer to the center of the field, coverage will have less ground to cover to get to the actual receiver – fortunately for the return team, punters are frequently vying for the coffin corner, so center-field punts are somewhat uncommon.
  #41  
Old Yesterday, 08:56 PM
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You could use the no-yards rule that the Canadian Football League uses.









This forces the kicking team to slow down just prior to contact, giving the returner a fair chance to catch the ball, but also avoids the risk of injury. It also means that every kick return is an actual run, with all the possibilities that includes.



In a lot of cases, the fair catch rule has meant that the kickoff is barely more than a ritual, this rule keeps it as an actual play, that can affect the game.


A different way of saying this is
"Get rid of the fair catch rule."

Ball is always live, everyone knows it, and the player fielding the ball has to run.
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