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Old 06-12-2018, 02:46 PM
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question about hate speech

This occurred to me last night when a thread was brought to my attention while I was participating in the now closed Chimera thread. One was this thread:

here

I linked to page 9 because near as I can tell that's where the insults started flying. I haven't read the entire 14 page thread, but from what I saw, a thread about Mel Gibson being a nutjob started an argument about child support and led to poster Scumpup insulting female posters, calling them "bitches", "hos", and "menstrual clots". He also told at least one female poster she was ugly.

Let me stop here to say hi, mods. I know I'm in ATMB, not the Pit. I have a point. Please read on.

This thread reminded me of another I followed when it was happening:

here

In which poster Ostrya, then posting as the lone cashew, lost his shit at a sock accusation starting at post #40 and started calling female posters sluts, bitches, ugly, and implied to one female poster that he was going to masturbate to a partially nude photo of hers that had been posted on the internet without her consent.

Now I'm not asking for action taken in these threads, obviously - they're from years ago, and nothing that was said was specifically against any rules at the time. But maybe, going forward, stuff like that should be?

Here's how hate speech is addressed in the SDMB rules:

Quote:
If you say hateful and/or racist things, you may get warned or banned. Some slurs are likely to be viewed as hate speech when used as insults, some aren't. No, we aren't going to give you a list. Our goal is not to restrict any and all speech which could be viewed by someone as offensive, but simply keep a modicum of decency, even here.
It's pretty open to interpretation, and I'm not suggesting we ban all insults that could possibly be taken as offensive. Dealing with it on a case by case scenario is probably the way to go. Hate speech is generally defined as insults meant to attack someone's race, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability etc - basically, a trait someone has that they have no control over. So wouldn't an insult specifically designed to insult and degrade a female poster, such as hos, sluts, menstrual clots, etc, fall under this definition?

Also, the instance I went over upthread of a male telling a female he was going to masturbate to a photo that he knew was online without her consent is especially disgusting. I think, going forward, that sort of thing should be an instant mod warning. There is zero excuse for that shit.


So, the TLDR is: I'd like to discuss whether feminine based insults that are designed to be degrading should be sanctioned on the grounds that they're sexist and fall under the rule banning hate speech. Thoughts?
  #2  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:49 PM
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In all these cases, I'm totally down with mod warnings or harsher punishments. I mean, that sort of shit we don't need.
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:40 PM
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I’d say no. Don’t like being insulted in the Pit. Don’t post in it. Are all insults based on any physical/mental characteristic going to be labeled hate speech now?
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:56 PM
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I’d say no. Don’t like being insulted in the Pit. Don’t post in it. Are all insults based on any physical/mental characteristic going to be labeled hate speech now?
Hopefully all dehumanizing insults in the Pit would be forbidden.
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:59 PM
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Hopefully all dehumanizing insults in the Pit would be forbidden.
So no more insults based on mental state or ability which are very dehumanizing? No more male based insults? No more sexual preference based insults? That’s not much of a Pit. They’d have to rename the BBQ Pit to the Tepid Hole.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:00 PM
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Hate speech is generally defined as insults meant to attack someone's race, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability etc - basically, a trait someone has that they have no control over. So wouldn't an insult specifically designed to insult and degrade a female poster, such as hos, sluts, menstrual clots, etc, fall under this definition?
Of course these insults should be forbidden.

But it would be fair if male-specific insults are forbidden as well. They are used at least 10 times more frequently.

Abuse which is not acceptable in most offline groups should not be acceptable online.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:01 PM
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The bad thing is that Sleeps and Diosa left the dope. I wonder if Scumpup's patent misogyny in that thread was part of that?
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:02 PM
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So no more insults based on mental state or ability which are very dehumanizing?
I have Autism and Depression. Due to my condition I can not work. I was never abused but I suffer enormously from Depression -- due to chemical and genetic factors.

Many of Homo Interneticus people find their second home on Social Media.

Last edited by CCitizen; 06-12-2018 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:16 PM
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The bad thing is that Sleeps and Diosa left the dope. I wonder if Scumpup's patent misogyny in that thread was part of that?
Isn’t it one of your goals to drive people from the board with what you post in the Pit? Either via a voluntary “flounce” or via “baiting’ them into posting a subjectively bannable post? In the context of the Pit, Scumpup is just behaving normally. Who cares who leaves because of normal Pit behavior. If expectopatronum doesn’t like being insulted or reading insults she/he can stay out of the Pit.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:22 PM
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Isn’t it one of your goals to drive people from the board with what you post in the Pit? Either via a voluntary “flounce” or via “baiting’ them into posting a subjectively bannable post? In the context of the Pit, Scumpup is just behaving normally. Who cares who leaves because of normal Pit behavior. If expectopatronum doesn’t like being insulted or reading insults she/he can stay out of the Pit.

Bro, get the hell out of my thread and quit shitting it up with your trolling. I'm trying to have a discussion here. It's also highly, highly amusing that you counsel people to stay out of the pit when you were the one crying about all the naughty words in the Skald pit thread because your kids might see them.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:29 PM
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This is ATMB and I am allowed to post my thoughts concerning the rules and structure of this message board. I disagree with your premise that women need yet another special rule protecting them in the pit and I’m expressing my point of view civilly.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgenstern View Post
The bad thing is that Sleeps and Diosa left the dope. I wonder if Scumpup's patent misogyny in that thread was part of that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Isn’t it one of your goals to drive people from the board with what you post in the Pit? Either via a voluntary “flounce” or via “baiting’ them into posting a subjectively bannable post? In the context of the Pit, Scumpup is just behaving normally. Who cares who leaves because of normal Pit behavior. If expectopatronum doesn’t like being insulted or reading insults she/he can stay out of the Pit.
This is my opinion. No one else may share it. Here goes:

Would you two please get a room.


Every thread you two are in becomes about you. Please work it out, somewhere else than here by preference.

Last edited by Sunny Daze; 06-12-2018 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:54 PM
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Sunny. In the corner of each post is a number. It is a consecutive number, starting with 1, the lowest, through whatever.
Now, look at what's posted.

Now, I post this in #7.
The bad thing is that Sleeps and Diosa left the dope. I wonder if Scumpup's patent misogyny in that thread was part of that?

My only post in this thread, And you somehow think it was to Octopus?
Your comment was out of line and homophobic.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:26 PM
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My comment reflects a pattern, and not just this thread, and I don't see where homophobia enters into this at all. I'm done discussing this here at all.
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:32 PM
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dismissed.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
This is ATMB and I am allowed to post my thoughts concerning the rules and structure of this message board. I disagree with your premise that women need yet another special rule protecting them in the pit and I’m expressing my point of view civilly.
You are free to post your thoughts, and you have done so, over and over and over again. It's getting to the point where it is derailing every single thread related to this topic. We are all more than aware of your opinions on this topic.

That's enough. Do not post this again in ATMB.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:28 PM
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So no more insults based on mental state or ability which are very dehumanizing? No more male based insults? No more sexual preference based insults? That’s not much of a Pit. They’d have to rename the BBQ Pit to the Tepid Hole.

Congratulations Octo you made me LOL.


That said, I'm fine with going after words and phrases on a case by case basis. Sexually degrading posts need to stop.

Just flat out calling someone a bitch is okay. But there's no need to escalate the rhetoric to the level Expecto points out.

Last edited by Grrr!; 06-12-2018 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:33 PM
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Bro, get the hell out of my thread and quit shitting it up with your trolling.
Accusations of trolling are not permitted outside the Pit. Do not do this again in ATMB.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:57 PM
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Moderator Note



Accusations of trolling are not permitted outside the Pit. Do not do this again in ATMB.
Thanks, I won't. That said, thanks for mod-noting the culprit.
  #20  
Old 06-12-2018, 08:28 PM
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Moderator Note



You are free to post your thoughts, and you have done so, over and over and over again. It's getting to the point where it is derailing every single thread related to this topic. We are all more than aware of your opinions on this topic.

That's enough. Do not post this again in ATMB.
I don't get this at all.

There have been many threads on this subject and many of the same people have posted essentially the same sentiments "over and over and over again", including the OP of this thread.

Why are you singling out octopus here? And why is his repeating a contrary opinion "derailing" the threads in which they're posted?

ISTM that you're according special status to the majority opinion on this issue, and allowing it, via moderator authority, a safe space where its adherents can discuss the finer points among themselves without pesky dissenters interrupting.

I don't recall seeing this before on this MB.
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:02 PM
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I don't get this at all.

There have been many threads on this subject and many of the same people have posted essentially the same sentiments "over and over and over again", including the OP of this thread.

Why are you singling out octopus here? And why is his repeating a contrary opinion "derailing" the threads in which they're posted?

ISTM that you're according special status to the majority opinion on this issue, and allowing it, via moderator authority, a safe space where its adherents can discuss the finer points among themselves without pesky dissenters interrupting.

I don't recall seeing this before on this MB.
I did a quick search of the last 3-4 threads that were related to this issue. octopus is in the top 3 posters for each thread. I am not. He posted 62 times in one of them. This is not including the pit thread that was opened for him. He's also posted things that contradict each other. He did so in this very thread by advising me not to participate in the Pit if these things bother me. He has the opposite stance in the Skald pit thread. He is derailing each thread on this subject and making it all about him. I am not. Anything else I can clear up for you?
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by expectopatronum View Post
I did a quick search of the last 3-4 threads that were related to this issue. octopus is in the top 3 posters for each thread. I am not. He posted 62 times in one of them. This is not including the pit thread that was opened for him. He's also posted things that contradict each other. He did so in this very thread by advising me not to participate in the Pit if these things bother me. He has the opposite stance in the Skald pit thread. He is derailing each thread on this subject and making it all about him. I am not. Anything else I can clear up for you?
Each thread is its own thread. I'm honestly not sure how my Pit thread is relevant at all though. Perhaps that belongs in the Silence about Harassment thread?
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:08 PM
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I did a quick search of the last 3-4 threads that were related to this issue. octopus is in the top 3 posters for each thread. I am not. He posted 62 times in one of them. This is not including the pit thread that was opened for him.
People who maintain a minority viewpoint and stick to their guns will generally tend to have a higher post count in threads, as compared to people who are in the majority. This is because they need to respond to multiple opposing posts, while those in the majority have much less to respond to.
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Anything else I can clear up for you?
Your generosity is noted, but unnecessary.
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:29 PM
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I don't recall seeing this before on this MB.
I did it just yesterday.
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:37 PM
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*drops mic*
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Old 06-12-2018, 09:50 PM
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FTR, I'm working on a reply to the OP right now. I might wait 'til tomorrow to post it, but I'm not ignoring your concerns.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:28 PM
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Thanks Miller. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:01 PM
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I'm genuinely torn on the question of gendered insults. I don't use them myself, but my social circle is a bunch of hard-left queers who would react to me calling someone a bitch like I'd used the n-word. So my personal experience is a bit of an outlier.

As a moderator, the problem I have with treating gendered insults as hate speech is the difficulty in drawing bright lines. At the risk of going all MRA, if gendered insults are out, is "dick" not allowed? I don't personally feel there's any parity there, but can I defend that distinction in the inevitable ATMB thread? Also, where on the continuum of gendered insults do we draw the line? "Boob" is arguably a gendered insult, and I don't think anyone would argue that I should be handing out warnings for that, but where do we draw the line between that, and calling someone a "cunt?" I don't see easy answers there, and given the nature of the forum, I think I should err on the side of putting the fewest restrictions on what posters are allowed to say in the Pit.

That said, gender is covered under the hate speech rules, and while there aren't any specific words that trigger moderation, we have moderated people because they showed a pattern of general misogyny in their posts. Of the two links you posted, I would probably not moderate the first, unless there was a pattern of the poster aggressively attacking female poster's looks like that. The second link would definitely be moderated, and should have been at the time. I checked the automated reporting system, but that wasn't instituted until a couple years later. It doesn't look like I posted to the thread, so I can only hope that I never saw it, otherwise I dropped the ball there.
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Old 06-13-2018, 04:10 AM
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Hopefully all dehumanizing insults in the Pit would be forbidden.
Is "cat-like agility" dehumanizing?
  #30  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:39 AM
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Is "cat-like agility" dehumanizing?
Is it an insult?

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  #31  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by engineer_comp_geek
Moderator Note



You are free to post your thoughts, and you have done so, over and over and over again. It's getting to the point where it is derailing every single thread related to this topic. We are all more than aware of your opinions on this topic.

That's enough. Do not post this again in ATMB.
I don't get this at all.

There have been many threads on this subject and many of the same people have posted essentially the same sentiments "over and over and over again", including the OP of this thread.
I don't get it either.

There have been a number of recent threads on this and related topics. Why is it necessary that only posts and posters who disagree be singled out to be silenced? We already know perfectly well what other posters think on the subject - should they be required to stop posting their opinion because they have done so already?

Why is repetition of "we need a new rule" OK but "no, I don't think we need a new rule" censored after a certain number?

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:32 AM
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You get to pick only one:

(1) Have a hate speech rule
(2) Have bright lines

If you're trying to do both, you're going to have a bad time.
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:00 AM
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I don't get it either.

There have been a number of recent threads on this and related topics. Why is it necessary that only posts and posters who disagree be singled out to be silenced? We already know perfectly well what other posters think on the subject - should they be required to stop posting their opinion because they have done so already?

Why is repetition of "we need a new rule" OK but "no, I don't think we need a new rule" censored after a certain number?

Regards,
Shodan
Only one poster has been silenced, and it seems to me he was silenced for spamming his boring, one-trick-pony opinion over and over and over more than his specific opinion.
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:22 AM
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Only one poster has been silenced, and it seems to me he was silenced for spamming his boring, one-trick-pony opinion over and over and over more than his specific opinion.
What's the difference between the two?

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:23 AM
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Is "cat-like agility" dehumanizing?
Definitely not. Anyone can recognize an insult when they see one.
  #36  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:27 AM
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And sometimes when they don't!
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:31 AM
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What's the difference between the two?
My guess: a "boring, one-trick-pony opinion" is a repeated opinion that you disagree with. That can get boring pretty fast. And the real problem is that it gets in the way of the repeated opinions that you do agree with, and in that sense it "derails" the discussion. Clearly needs to be stamped out.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:08 AM
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My guess: a "boring, one-trick-pony opinion" is a repeated opinion that you disagree with. That can get boring pretty fast. And the real problem is that it gets in the way of the repeated opinions that you do agree with, and in that sense it "derails" the discussion. Clearly needs to be stamped out.
I think you might onto something here.

Discussions of this sort seem to be like séances. The ghosts won't show up if there are unbelievers in the room. And we can't have a productive discussion unless everyone agrees in advance. And the true believers get pissed off when you show up at the third séance in a row saying "that's a guy in a bedsheet".

Regards,
Shodan
  #39  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:12 AM
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This conversation about why and when one-trick ponies get topic-banned in ATMB is super interesting, but I can't see the connection to the OP. It sounds to me like it'd make a great new thread--FP, wanna start one?
  #40  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:15 AM
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I think you might onto something here.

Discussions of this sort seem to be like séances. The ghosts won't show up if there are unbelievers in the room. And we can't have a productive discussion unless everyone agrees in advance. And the true believers get pissed off when you show up at the third séance in a row saying "that's a guy in a bedsheet".

Regards,
Shodan
So, you're likening a discussion about gendered insults designed to degrade women to a gathering of a group of gullible idiots trying to raise the spirits of the dead? Is this an accurate reading of your post?



edit: also, what LHoD said. Start your own thread to cry about octopus being modded and leave this crap out of mine. Thanks everso.

Last edited by expectopatronum; 06-13-2018 at 10:17 AM.
  #41  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:27 AM
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Bro, get the hell out of my thread and quit shitting it up with your trolling. I'm trying to have a discussion here. It's also highly, highly amusing that you counsel people to stay out of the pit when you were the one crying about all the naughty words in the Skald pit thread because your kids might see them.
Now, now don't get your non-gendered undergarments in a twist.

See how easy it is to avoid sexist speech?
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  #42  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:57 AM
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This conversation about why and when one-trick ponies get topic-banned in ATMB is super interesting, but I can't see the connection to the OP.
No connection to the OP of course, but it's connected to post #16 of this thread, which as it happens is the post I commented on.

And while it's not connected to the subject of OP, it does impact the develop of this thread - any time you topic ban a prolific poster on one side of an issue it impacts the discussion, especially if that poster's position is a distinct minority position as it is.

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It sounds to me like it'd make a great new thread--FP, wanna start one?
No. Among other things, it's not clear precisely what ECG had in mind altogether, WADR to Fenris.
  #43  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:08 PM
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My guess: a "boring, one-trick-pony opinion" is a repeated opinion that you disagree with. That can get boring pretty fast. And the real problem is that it gets in the way of the repeated opinions that you do agree with, and in that sense it "derails" the discussion. Clearly needs to be stamped out.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:49 PM
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As a moderator, the problem I have with treating gendered insults as hate speech is the difficulty in drawing bright lines. At the risk of going all MRA, if gendered insults are out, is "dick" not allowed? I don't personally feel there's any parity there, but can I defend that distinction in the inevitable ATMB thread? Also, where on the continuum of gendered insults do we draw the line?
As I have said before, there is a consensus among many people in English Speaking World of 2018, that any compassion for male victims of discrimination is a moral crime. Simple Compassion is a moral misdemeanor, while Aggravated Compassion is a moral felony.

The aforementioned discrimination may be as minor as different rules for men ad women on a relatively small Social Media Platform such as SDMB,or something as major as a 63% sentencing disparity.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CCitizen View Post
As I have said before, there is a consensus among many people in English Speaking World of 2018, that any compassion for male victims of discrimination is a moral crime. Simple Compassion is a moral misdemeanor, while Aggravated Compassion is a moral felony.
Yeah yeah, go talk to the guys at r/incels already.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:46 PM
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Last edited by Whiskey Dickens; 06-13-2018 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:52 PM
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Yes, there is discrimination against men. And where it exists, it should be stopped. But the thing is, it's much, much less severe, both in frequency and in the severity of individual events, than discrimination against women. So when a guy argues more vociferously against discrimination against men than against the reverse, it really leads one to suspect that that guy is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:00 PM
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Yes, there is discrimination against men. And where it exists, it should be stopped. But the thing is, it's much, much less severe, both in frequency and in the severity of individual events, than discrimination against women. So when a guy argues more vociferously against discrimination against men than against the reverse, it really leads one to suspect that that guy is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Well said.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:19 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yes, there is discrimination against men. And where it exists, it should be stopped. But the thing is, it's much, much less severe, both in frequency and in the severity of individual events, than discrimination against women. So when a guy argues more vociferously against discrimination against men than against the reverse, it really leads one to suspect that that guy is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
People make this type of argument all the time, but I don't agree with it. The implication is that any time someone is worked up about one particular issue this implies that he thinks this is the single biggest issue in the world and that all other issues are of lesser importance. But that's not how the world works. Everyone has their own interests and concerns.

In particular, people sometimes feel that regardless of how their issue ranks in comparison to other issues, it's worth their while to focus on it because it's being neglected by the public at large, while other issues - which may possibly be bigger concerns - are already benefiting from an enormous amount of attention.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
People make this type of argument all the time, but I don't agree with it. The implication is that any time someone is worked up about one particular issue this implies that he thinks this is the single biggest issue in the world and that all other issues are of lesser importance. But that's not how the world works. Everyone has their own interests and concerns.

In particular, people sometimes feel that regardless of how their issue ranks in comparison to other issues, it's worth their while to focus on it because it's being neglected by the public at large, while other issues - which may possibly be bigger concerns - are already benefiting from an enormous amount of attention.
Thank you.

He who is not at liberty to defend his rights has no rights.
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