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  #101  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
If a white supremacist on a shooting spree were to see you, what are the chances he would say "OMG! It's a brown invader!!"
Based on that idiot in El Paso I'd say my own odds would be pretty good to get a bullet, and so would most of my family. As are my chances of being pulled over for a 'random' traffic stop (just happened to me a few months ago in fact). But I'm still not overly concerned about it. There are a lot of things I think are bigger threats to American lives, including my own, by orders of magnitude.
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  #102  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:47 PM
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You would think people would not need reminding, but, Martin Niemöller would like a word with you.
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  #103  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:00 PM
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You would think people would not need reminding, but, Martin Niemöller would like a word with you.
This isn't Nazi Germany and Trump is no Hitler, nor do the Republicans have anywhere near the power or ability as the Nazi did, and this after a failed republic and a shattered economy in the wake of a failed and lost war. I honestly don't see the parallels. Again, you need to put all of this in perspective. How many racists white supremacists do you think there are, out there? In the context of 'threat to American lives', the numbers are at extremely low levels. And while when they happen is spectacular, the context of the numbers just doesn't seem to indicate it's a huge threat to American lives. It SEEMS like it is, because when it happens it's spectacular and people, rightfully, are outraged and respond, which the press is geared too. Another thing that isn't a parallel to Nazi Germany, where, frankly, most of the public didn't give a shit about some Jews having their shops burned or beat up...or sent to concentration camps.
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  #104  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:03 PM
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Ok, so lets say the OP is right. What does he propose to do about it?
  #105  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:17 PM
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I submit that ~63M people don't give a shit about some racist white supremacists targeting minorities. Which is not to say that all ~63M are ready to take up arms with white supremacists; they are mostly tacit supporters. Nor do I claim Kristallnacht is imminent; But I guess I should not expect people who have never experienced discrimination to be very good at reading the early warning signs.

But you've convinced me, XT. Let's wait until an economic collapse, a failed republic and rule of law, loss of support from former democratic allies, cozier relations with dictators and despots in search of power, and a more polarized population. No sense in worrying about the smell of smoke. Let's wait till the house is on fire.
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  #106  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:22 PM
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We didn't really care that they were fascist, either. We only cared that they wanted to take over everything else. It wouldn't have mattered if they were theocratic, fascist, communist, imperialistic or even democratic until they started rolling tanks into areas we actually cared about.
Right, like I said, it is a dangerous ideology that will spread unless it is actively fought. Anytime you have a group that sees themselves as superior to others, and therefore have the right to impose their will on those they deem as inferior is a form of racial supremacy.

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Do you think anyone , anywhere is responsible for their own actions and not directly the fault of the US government (or in this case the white supremacists ) ?
Do you doubt that our meddling has created many of the problems that we leave them to solve?

Sure, individual should take responsibility for their actions, but to treat ourselves as not having had more than a little bit of influence is just to absolve ourselves of responsibility entirely.
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I find this a lot in all talks about just about everything. Liberals tend to blame (or excuse ) everyone else but the person for whom the blame should lie with.
I've not seen that.

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"We" split up Korea?
I'm not sure if you are quibbling about the word "we", or are questioning the history of the division, but to be specific: "We" as in the United States, and specifically a couple of US military officers who barely bothered to locate Seoul on a map before drawing a line across the 38th parallel and calling it a day.

Do you have any disagreements with that statement?
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And why is the DPRK "up against a hostile world"? Nobody would want to invade then if not for their actual aggression against the RoK and Japan. The DPRK does not have "belligerents at its doorstep", they have a nation that was invaded by them in 1950 worried they will try again.
Without delving into the history of the Korean conflict too far, I would say that the DPRK saw neighbors to their south rounding up and executing political dissidents and suspected sympathizers and were fighting off repeated incursions over the 38th parallel by the South Korean forces.

The further atrocities that were ignored, encouraged, or even committed by the United States in our use of the Korean peninsula in our proxy war against another (predominately white) super power should give North Korea reason to consider much of the outside world to be hostile and prepared to reengage the war that never actually came to a close.

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White supremacists have control over the executive branch of the United States government.
Don't forget the Senate.

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Originally Posted by XT View Post
This isn't Nazi Germany and Trump is no Hitler, nor do the Republicans have anywhere near the power or ability as the Nazi did, and this after a failed republic and a shattered economy in the wake of a failed and lost war. I honestly don't see the parallels. Again, you need to put all of this in perspective. How many racists white supremacists do you think there are, out there? In the context of 'threat to American lives', the numbers are at extremely low levels. And while when they happen is spectacular, the context of the numbers just doesn't seem to indicate it's a huge threat to American lives. It SEEMS like it is, because when it happens it's spectacular and people, rightfully, are outraged and respond, which the press is geared too. Another thing that isn't a parallel to Nazi Germany, where, frankly, most of the public didn't give a shit about some Jews having their shops burned or beat up...or sent to concentration camps.
The point is to head these things off at the pass, rather than to let them grow to the point where we have to engage the bulk of the world's military to settle a matter of ideology.
  #107  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:29 PM
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Ok, so lets say the OP is right. What does he propose to do about it?
If at all possible, remind or educate folks like you that white supremacists are an ideological threat to American society and the world at large.
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  #108  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:29 PM
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Democracy is by far the most dangerous ideology.
What do you propose as an alternative?
  #109  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:11 PM
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I submit that ~63M people don't give a shit about some racist white supremacists targeting minorities. Which is not to say that all ~63M are ready to take up arms with white supremacists; they are mostly tacit supporters. Nor do I claim Kristallnacht is imminent; But I guess I should not expect people who have never experienced discrimination to be very good at reading the early warning signs.

But you've convinced me, XT. Let's wait until an economic collapse, a failed republic and rule of law, loss of support from former democratic allies, cozier relations with dictators and despots in search of power, and a more polarized population. No sense in worrying about the smell of smoke. Let's wait till the house is on fire.
Man, that's a lot of assumptions and straw there. It's also some horseshit that you think that 63 million Americans 'don't give a shit about some racist white supremacists targeting minorities', especially considering that a percentage of those ARE minorities.
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  #110  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:16 PM
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The point is to head these things off at the pass, rather than to let them grow to the point where we have to engage the bulk of the world's military to settle a matter of ideology.
Who said anything about waiting or doing nothing? I'm saying the risk is low...that doesn't mean we do nothing. As a society, it's in our best interest to step firmly on the necks of such folks and punish them to the extent of the law when they break it. Again, unlike in Nazi Germany, where it was the ruling party doing this shit and/or encouraging their citizens to do so.

In terms of the OP, it's just not a huge threat to 'American lives', or a huge threat to America. It's not even a small threat, in the context of a country of 330 million people...even if we assume, as some do, that the opposition party is ALL in favor of white supremacist racist shit.
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  #111  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:25 PM
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Calling someone who believes that a small number of Jews can control all “white” nations a white SUPREMACIST is a mistake.
White supremacists think that white people (by their definition of white people) ought to be in control of society. They don't necessarily think that they already are. In fact, they're often found complaining (usually inaccurately) that somebody Not Them is in control.
  #112  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:28 PM
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People worried about being asked to see their green card.
People targeted by white extremists.

I'd like to post a Venn diagram for this. This is a poor if:then statement.
...I've already cited this. People that aren't white are the targets of white supremacy. The ICE raids, what they are doing with the Green Cards, this isn't an accident. The Venn diagram should be crystal clear. If you are white then you are unlikely ever to have an ICE agent come up to you and demand your papers. Thats the point.
  #113  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:35 PM
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Man, that's a lot of assumptions and straw there.
Like?

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It's also some horseshit that you think that 63 million Americans 'don't give a shit about some racist white supremacists targeting minorities', especially considering that a percentage of those ARE minorities.
I was disappointed to learn there were that many as well. I can only go by what the current number of Trump supporters reveals. Also, being a minority does not absolve or prevent one from holding racist views or supporting those who express them.
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  #114  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:41 PM
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Since a large majority of illegal immigrants to the US are from Mexico and Central America, obviously actions against illegal immigrants are going to affect them more than any other group. That's kind of how math works.

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  #115  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver
Like?
Well, I quoted your post. But if you need an example, my post actually said nothing about 'Let's wait until an economic collapse, a failed republic and rule of law, loss of support from former democratic allies, cozier relations with dictators and despots in search of power, and a more polarized population. No sense in worrying about the smell of smoke. Let's wait till the house is on fire.'. See, you just made all that up, and put that in on your own. I didn't say anything about any of that. What I said was, the Nazi regime who was responsible for what you quoted pretty much was born in that environment...which is completely, totally different than the conditions in the US today. If you are waiting for all of that stuff to happen in the US, basically you are, again, worrying about the wrong thing, since if that happens then the whole world is tits up and we are all fucked.

I also didn't say anything about doing nothing...again, you and others pretty much just put that in from the XT that is in your heads who is speaking to you with your own voice and not mine.

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I was disappointed to learn there were that many as well. I can only go by what the current number of Trump supporters reveals. Also, being a minority does not absolve or prevent one from holding racist views or supporting those who express them.
Probably because you made that up. Again, it's in your own head. It's the sort of over the top, categorical insult that you can get away with on this board because it's against conservatives and Republicans. The reality is what I said...the FBI and other international watchdog groups list the number of ACTUAL white supremacist groups not in the millions or even in the 100's of thousands, but in the 1000-1500 range, with an estimated 100 persons on average per group. See, there is a huge difference between 63 MILLION and, perhaps, a few hundred thousand. Maybe. The fact that you see all of your political enemies in terms of being racist murderers is kind of telling, and it's a direction that several posters seem to be going towards, especially in these more contentious debates.
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  #116  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:49 PM
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Since a large majority of illegal immigrants to the US are from Mexico and Central America, obviously actions against illegal immigrants are going to affect them more than any other group. That's kind of how math works.

Regards,
Shodan
So it makes perfect sense to shoot them and/or to take actions that result in separating them from their children?

It's no great insight to point out that racists focus their actions against those they identify as undesirable. And they don't particularly care whether or not they are illegal immigrants of US citizens, born and raised. That's how white supremacy works.
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  #117  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:51 PM
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In terms of the OP, it's just not a huge threat to 'American lives', or a huge threat to America. It's not even a small threat, in the context of a country of 330 million people...even if we assume, as some do, that the opposition party is ALL in favor of white supremacist racist shit.
...the threat isn't that there have been a handful of shootings resulting in a handful of deaths.

The threat is that in a country of 330 million people there are millions of people who both are supporting a regime that is instituting racist white supremacist policies, and that these people will vote for this to continue in 2020. The threat is that there are probably thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of Americans who not only support the aims and goals of the shooters, but give a silent cheer every single time one of those shootings happen. The threat is that these white supremacists have figured out how to "weaponize" the internet, are using it as a tool to recruit people to their cause in ways that most of us can't even imagine.
  #118  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:01 PM
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...the threat isn't that there have been a handful of shootings resulting in a handful of deaths.

The threat is that in a country of 330 million people there are millions of people who both are supporting a regime that is instituting racist white supremacist policies, and that these people will vote for this to continue in 2020. The threat is that there are probably thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of Americans who not only support the aims and goals of the shooters, but give a silent cheer every single time one of those shootings happen. The threat is that these white supremacists have figured out how to "weaponize" the internet, are using it as a tool to recruit people to their cause in ways that most of us can't even imagine.
Of those supposed 63 million white supremacist racists, some support Trump for a variety of reasons not all of which have anything to do with the immigration issue going on. Some support Trump for his immigration because they feel it's a big problem that hasn't been and wasn't being addressed. Some small percentage do so purely for racist reasons. Stating that all or even the majority of those 63 million are in lockstep on this issue is simply ridiculous and totally un-nuanced, and if it wasn't about conservatives and Republicans it would be shouted down as a ridiculous broad brush. If some conservative poster tried to paint all liberals or all progressives or even all Clinton/Obama/whoever supporters as one thing they would be laughed at. Posters making these broad brush attacks against 10's of millions of Americans are taken seriously on this board only when it's an attack aimed at Trump Supporters/Republicans/Conservatives. Then it's right and correct.

I'm none of those things. I'm neither white, nor a Trump supporter, nor a conservative (except on this board) nor a Republican. I see white supremacists as definitely an issue, but in the greater scheme of things it's a small issue that, because of the spotlight and some spectacular attacks in the public's focus. I get that. It's in all the press, so it must be a threat. But, what I'm not seeing is millions of people coming out of the woodwork in support of folks like that asshole in El Paso. Oh, and BTW, I have family who live there. I'm guessing that none of you folks do, or if they do they wouldn't be targets of such an attack...unlike my family.

At any rate, I've given my thoughts on why I don't think white supremacy is the biggest threat to American lives, and an example that most folks don't even probably consider that is and kills a hell of a lot more American (and foreigners) each year than US white supremacy. I think, instead of focusing on white supremacy that a focus on nationalism, especially Trump's brand, is more important and probably a bigger threat than a few 10's of thousand or maybe 100's of thousand white losers. YMMV of course.
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  #119  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:02 PM
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Man, that's a lot of assumptions and straw there. It's also some horseshit that you think that 63 million Americans 'don't give a shit about some racist white supremacists targeting minorities', especially considering that a percentage of those ARE minorities.
He didn't specify where he got his numbers, but, by implication, he's talking about the Republican Party. But the Republican party is 24% of the US population, which is more like 78 million. So I would presume that he deliberately reduced that number, in part to get rid of the POCs in the party.

I probably wouldn't have, however. He didn't argue that they were white supremacists, just that they don't particularly care to try and stop white supremacy. And I'd argue that's almost certainly true. Only the Democratic Party has placed racism as a key component to stop, while the Republican Party not only doesn't, but has actively courted racists, placing white supremacists into power.

I would argue that, by identifying as a Republican, someone is saying that they don't believe stopping racism is a high priority. The exception would be if they are trying to change the party from the inside.

This is not the same thing as saying they support white supremacy, just that they don't particularly care to stop it, either. The actual number of people who support white supremacy is lower.

Last edited by BigT; 08-12-2019 at 04:04 PM.
  #120  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:05 PM
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If you are waiting for all of that stuff to happen in the US, basically you are, again, worrying about the wrong thing, since if that happens then the whole world is tits up and we are all fucked.
I am not "waiting for all that stuff to happen". I'm saying it's well within the realm of possibility that it may well happen. If not in the US first, then certainly in other countries first and it will spread as fires tend to do. This administration is the least likely to prevent those fires from spreading because they in fact fan them.

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Probably because you made that up. Again, it's in your own head. It's the sort of over the top, categorical insult that you can get away with on this board because it's against conservatives and Republicans. The reality is what I said...the FBI and other international watchdog groups list the number of ACTUAL white supremacist groups not in the millions or even in the 100's of thousands, but in the 1000-1500 range, with an estimated 100 persons on average per group. See, there is a huge difference between 63 MILLION and, perhaps, a few hundred thousand. Maybe. The fact that you see all of your political enemies in terms of being racist murderers is kind of telling, and it's a direction that several posters seem to be going towards, especially in these more contentious debates.
It's not in my head when I see thousands and thousand of people chanting "Send her Home", at a rally lead by a president with a long history of racist words and actions.

Experience tells me that not everyone who thinks the same way shows up at a rally. Some prefer to cheer from the comfort of their own living room and voting booth.

Also, I said nothing about ALL republicans and conservatives being in support of bigotry. Those are your words, not mine. My words were: "Which is not to say that all ~63M are ready to take up arms with white supremacists; they are mostly tacit supporters." QED: Trump rallies.
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  #121  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:05 PM
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Since a large majority of illegal immigrants to the US are from Mexico and Central America, obviously actions against illegal immigrants are going to affect them more than any other group. That's kind of how math works.

Regards,
Shodan
...except it isn't just illegal immigrants who are getting targeted by ICE. It isn't just illegal immigrants who are being harrased and racially abused based on nothing but the colour of their skin. Illegal immigrants aren't the target of this regimes latest Green Card changes. Seeking asylum isn't illegal: but that hasn't stopped this administration from seperating parents from children, from detaining people in standing-room only cells for weeks and not letting them shower. When the Walmart shooter went down to El Paso he didn't only shoot illegal immigrants. He targeted and shot brown people.
  #122  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:13 PM
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I think, instead of focusing on white supremacy that a focus on nationalism, especially Trump's brand, is more important and probably a bigger threat than a few 10's of thousand or maybe 100's of thousand white losers. YMMV of course.
You don't view Trump brand nationalism and white supremacists as being a distinction with very little difference? One feeds the other. White supremacists certainly think Trump is on their side.
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  #123  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:19 PM
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Since a large majority of illegal immigrants to the US are from Mexico and Central America, obviously actions against illegal immigrants are going to affect them more than any other group. That's kind of how math works.

Regards,
Shodan
"A lot of criminals share your skin color, so we're going to treat you like a criminal," is also kind of how racism works.
  #124  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:21 PM
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...the threat isn't that there have been a handful of shootings resulting in a handful of deaths.

The threat is that in a country of 330 million people there are millions of people who both are supporting a regime that is instituting racist white supremacist policies, and that these people will vote for this to continue in 2020. The threat is that there are probably thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of Americans who not only support the aims and goals of the shooters, but give a silent cheer every single time one of those shootings happen. The threat is that these white supremacists have figured out how to "weaponize" the internet, are using it as a tool to recruit people to their cause in ways that most of us can't even imagine.
I'm not sure I understand what you think the threat is. Even if we take everything you wrote as true, the "silent cheers" don't harm anyone. And if, for all their effort to "weaponize" the internet, they've only managed to recruit a handful of people willing to take violent action for their cause, it seems like a pretty mild threat, less dangerous than bee stings or lightning strikes. Could you elaborate further on what you see as the threat?
  #125  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:23 PM
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Of those supposed 63 million white supremacist racists, some support Trump for a variety of reasons not all of which have anything to do with the immigration issue going on. Some support Trump for his immigration because they feel it's a big problem that hasn't been and wasn't being addressed. Some small percentage do so purely for racist reasons. Stating that all or even the majority of those 63 million are in lockstep on this issue is simply ridiculous and totally un-nuanced, and if it wasn't about conservatives and Republicans it would be shouted down as a ridiculous broad brush. If some conservative poster tried to paint all liberals or all progressives or even all Clinton/Obama/whoever supporters as one thing they would be laughed at. Posters making these broad brush attacks against 10's of millions of Americans are taken seriously on this board only when it's an attack aimed at Trump Supporters/Republicans/Conservatives. Then it's right and correct.
...63 million is your figure: it isn't mine.

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I'm none of those things. I'm neither white, nor a Trump supporter, nor a conservative (except on this board) nor a Republican. I see white supremacists as definitely an issue, but in the greater scheme of things it's a small issue that, because of the spotlight and some spectacular attacks in the public's focus.
It isn't just the shootings.

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I get that.
I don't think you really do.

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It's in all the press, so it must be a threat.
A strawman that has nothing to do with anything I've said.

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But, what I'm not seeing is millions of people coming out of the woodwork in support of folks like that asshole in El Paso.
I said thousands, not millions.

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Oh, and BTW, I have family who live there. I'm guessing that none of you folks do, or if they do they wouldn't be targets of such an attack...unlike my family.
I have family that live in Christchurch. That lived very close to Masjid Al Noor. I'm guessing that you don't don't have family there and your family wouldn't be targets of such an attack...unlike my family.

Reality check: this isn't a uniquely American problem.

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At any rate, I've given my thoughts on why I don't think white supremacy is the biggest threat to American lives, and an example that most folks don't even probably consider that is and kills a hell of a lot more American (and foreigners) each year than US white supremacy.
America was founded on white supremacy. Your constitution was written by and for white people. US white supremacy has been killing black and brown people and has been "keeping them in their place" since your nation was founded.

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I think, instead of focusing on white supremacy that a focus on nationalism, especially Trump's brand, is more important and probably a bigger threat than a few 10's of thousand or maybe 100's of thousand white losers. YMMV of course.
There isn't a material difference between 'white supremacy' and 'white nationalism.' White nationalism is just what white supremacists have started calling themselves to make them sound less racist. Its propaganda. And it appears you have fallen for it.
  #126  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:23 PM
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He didn't specify where he got his numbers, but, by implication, he's talking about the Republican Party. But the Republican party is 24% of the US population, which is more like 78 million. So I would presume that he deliberately reduced that number, in part to get rid of the POCs in the party. ...
I'm pretty sure the "63 million" number came from the (approximate) number of votes President Trump received in 2016. Most of those were from Republicans / independents, but some Democrats voted for him too.
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Old 08-12-2019, 04:27 PM
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You don't view Trump brand nationalism and white supremacists as being a distinction with very little difference? One feeds the other. White supremacists certainly think Trump is on their side.
I don't. Basically, I see Trump as a populist asshole who is riding the wave of fear and anger about illegals coming into the country and taking advantage of us poor Americans. My WAG is he doesn't give a shit one way or the other.

Does his actions and what he says feed some small percentage of white asshole losers? Absolutely. We saw that with the El Paso shooter. But what we are also seeing is a lot of folks who are shocked and angry at that, and we are also seeing said white racist asshole in prison...and probably destined to be there for the rest of his life.

Do white supremacist think Trump is on their side? Absolutely they do. They see a government finally taking action against this huge growing threat that they perceive...in the same way the OP perceives white supremacy as this huge, existential threat. But Trump is no more on their side than he is on the side of the blue collar workers who thought he was going to bring back those good, high paying high benefit low skill manufacturing jobs, or any of the other groups he rides like an old lathered pony. Trump is on Trump's side.

I agree that what he does and says eggs on white supremacist assholes like this idiot in El Paso. Definitely. He is bringing the crazies out of the wood work. But, crazy is out there regardless. There is always some crazy asshole that for one reason or another decides to blow up a marathon, or shoot up a concert, or shoot up a church, or walk into Walmart to shoot hispanics. What I don't see is millions of folks rising up to proclaim that this guy was right, or to join in the hunt for hispanics or blacks or asians or whatever.

Now, nationalism...THAT has been an issue in the US for a while. I've seen it on the rise since even before 9/11, but definitely since then. And yeah, I think that is definitely an 'ideological threat' to the US. Perhaps not to American lives, but definitely to America. White supremacists though? To me, those are mainly fringe assholes who's day has come and gone and who are still trying to hold on and recapture their lost world where only white folks (and only SOME kinds of white folks) were on top. It ain't going to happen.
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Old 08-12-2019, 04:29 PM
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You've linked together two unrelated things. If, say, North Korea nuked Seoul and America nuked Pyongyang in return, that has zilch to do with skin color.


Do you think Hiroshima and Nagasaki was because Americans were white and Japanese were not?
I think it had something to do with it.
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Old 08-12-2019, 04:30 PM
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At any rate, I've given my thoughts on why I don't think white supremacy is the biggest threat to American lives, and an example that most folks don't even probably consider that is and kills a hell of a lot more American (and foreigners) each year than US white supremacy. I think, instead of focusing on white supremacy that a focus on nationalism, especially Trump's brand, is more important and probably a bigger threat than a few 10's of thousand or maybe 100's of thousand white losers. YMMV of course.
My issue with that statement is that, in the US at least, this is a distinction without much difference. The Nationalism in the US is predominantly white supremacist--nonwhite Americans tend to be excluded. All you seem to be saying is that only some white supremacists are dangerous.

Now if you want to argue that "violent white supremacists" aren't the threat, then I'm with you. While what happens with them is horrible, they at least are condemned. It's the white supremacy that tries to hide as patriotism or other such stuff that is the problem. It is the ballot box where the threat is.

I'd argue the largest thread from white supremacy is from our police--not because they are violent white supremacists, but because there is white supremacy built into the system, hence more black people being shot and killed, and more black people being arrested and convicted for the same crimes.

I am, of course, using the extended definition of white supremacy, not the one that is limited to the KKK and Nazis. It is any racism by white people against nonwhite people. That is the one the OP said they were using. I abhor semantic arguments.

(And, yes, I did use nonwhite, rather than POC. I feel that may be a term that would get in the way in this case. In this case, it is specifically the fact that they are "not white" that is relevant. If you'd rather, feel free to replace it, and don't get into a semantic argument over whether I used the right word.)

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  #130  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:40 PM
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... It is the ballot box where the threat is. ...
What is the "threat" there? President Trump has been in office for 2.5 years and the world spins on. The economy is still chugging along, babies are still being born, elections are still being held, lives are continuing onward, etc. If he wins re-election, what happens that's a "threat"? Is China going to nuke us on 11/3/2020 if we don't elect the dem? Is the Yellowstone super volcano going to erupt? What's the "threat" at the ballot box?
  #131  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:40 PM
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I'm not sure I understand what you think the threat is. Even if we take everything you wrote as true, the "silent cheers" don't harm anyone.
...that person who "silently cheers" the death of a brown person is also the person who won't hire a brown person, won't give a job to a black person, is also the policeman who arrests that guy because of the colour of their skin and gives him a couple of punches in the face because thats just what people who silently cheer the death of a brown person does.

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And if, for all their effort to "weaponize" the internet, they've only managed to recruit a handful of people willing to take violent action for their cause, it seems like a pretty mild threat, less dangerous than bee stings or lightning strikes.
The Trump's victory in America, the Brexit vote, the Morrison win in Australia, Bolsonaro's win in Brazil. This isn't just about the shootings. I don't know how many times I have to say that.

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Could you elaborate further on what you see as the threat?
Its about the world-wide rise of authoritarianism. In America its being fueled by white supremacy.
  #132  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:43 PM
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My issue with that statement is that, in the US at least, this is a distinction without much difference. The Nationalism in the US is predominantly white supremacist--nonwhite Americans tend to be excluded. All you seem to be saying is that only some white supremacists are dangerous.
I'm trying to be as inoffensive as I can here, so bear with me. Basically, this is white people propaganda and is VERY offensive. Nationalism is all about being white in America? Have you never been to a parade with people other than white Americans waving flags?? Have you never been to a ball game and seen non-whites standing for the national anthem? Never seen non-whites with a flag at their house?
Americans, regardless of race or religions, are highly nationalistic, and thinking that it's only whites is really a disconnect I can't even fathom. I know that in my own family (both the majority Democrats as well as the Republicans) there are all sorts of symbols of patriotism and US fervor. And I seriously doubt that I'm in the one hispanic family in the country, or one minority family who feels that way or does such things.

So, nationalism isn't just something for whites only. Seriously...you need to really think about this stuff before saying it. I think immigrants are MORE fervently American and nationalistic in many ways than white folks who's families have been here for centuries.
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  #133  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:46 PM
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...that person who "silently cheers" the death of a brown person is also the person who won't hire a brown person, won't give a job to a black person, is also the policeman who arrests that guy because of the colour of their skin and gives him a couple of punches in the face because thats just what people who silently cheer the death of a brown person does. ...
None of those things are a new development under the Trump administration. There were some racist assholes that wouldn't hire a brown person while Clinton was in office. Unequal arrest rates were present during the Bush administration (both). Policemen used excessive force in arresting PoC during the Obama administration. And the country muddled on anyways. When we find someone breaking the relevant laws, we try to deal with that through our legal system, imperfect as it is. I don't understand why you think those things are a "threat" now. They'll almost certainly continue on for the remainder of President Trump's administration and on into the next one, and the one after that, and the one after that.

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  #134  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:49 PM
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I'm trying to be as inoffensive as I can here, so bear with me. Basically, this is white people propaganda and is VERY offensive. Nationalism is all about being white in America? Have you never been to a parade with people other than white Americans waving flags?? Have you never been to a ball game and seen non-whites standing for the national anthem? Never seen non-whites with a flag at their house?
Americans, regardless of race or religions, are highly nationalistic, and thinking that it's only whites is really a disconnect I can't even fathom. I know that in my own family (both the majority Democrats as well as the Republicans) there are all sorts of symbols of patriotism and US fervor. And I seriously doubt that I'm in the one hispanic family in the country, or one minority family who feels that way or does such things.

So, nationalism isn't just something for whites only. Seriously...you need to really think about this stuff before saying it. I think immigrants are MORE fervently American and nationalistic in many ways than white folks who's families have been here for centuries.
Thank you for this post. I had similar thoughts, but you phrased it much better than I could, and coming from you it will almost certainly be better-received than if I'd said it.
  #135  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:50 PM
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What is the "threat" there?
Exactly what this thread is about, further enabling and encouraging white supremacy.

A large fraction of those 63 million can be forgiven (in my mind) for not really understanding that Trump was serious when he espoused his racial hatred. They can be forgiven for being more concerned about making rent or putting food on the table than some inappropriate remarks, and he did tell some pretty enticing lies to them. If I held them all morally accountable, I'd have to also consider someone who gets swindled by a used car salesman to also be morally accountable.

Those who still support him, and will vote for him in 202 do know that he was serious, do know that he is encouraging white supremacy, and so if they are at the least, tacitly approving of his racist rhetoric and actions.
  #136  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:52 PM
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None of those things are a new development under the Trump administration.
...I never claimed they were.

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I don't understand why you think those things are a "threat" now.
You made the statement " Even if we take everything you wrote as true, the "silent cheers" don't harm anyone." I addressed that statement. You "don't understand" because you've mischaracterized the intent of my response.
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:02 PM
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I'm trying to be as inoffensive as I can here, so bear with me. Basically, this is white people propaganda and is VERY offensive. Nationalism is all about being white in America? Have you never been to a parade with people other than white Americans waving flags?? Have you never been to a ball game and seen non-whites standing for the national anthem? Never seen non-whites with a flag at their house?
Americans, regardless of race or religions, are highly nationalistic, and thinking that it's only whites is really a disconnect I can't even fathom. I know that in my own family (both the majority Democrats as well as the Republicans) there are all sorts of symbols of patriotism and US fervor. And I seriously doubt that I'm in the one hispanic family in the country, or one minority family who feels that way or does such things.

So, nationalism isn't just something for whites only. Seriously...you need to really think about this stuff before saying it. I think immigrants are MORE fervently American and nationalistic in many ways than white folks who's families have been here for centuries.
There is a difference between loving your country and being patriotic, and Nationalism.

One of the key aspects of Nationalism is maintaining a single national identity based on shared social characteristics such as culture, language, religion, politics, and belief in a shared singular history.

Now, you may be assuming that when one talks about Nationalism, they are referring to civic, rather than ethnic Nationalism, and in a vacuum, that's a reasonable distinction. In this thread, it is obvious that what is being referred to is the more common form of ethnic Nationalism.

Now, with that said, if you put the word "ethnic" in front of the uses of Nationalism, would you stick by what you said?
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:06 PM
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I'm trying to be as inoffensive as I can here, so bear with me. Basically, this is white people propaganda and is VERY offensive. Nationalism is all about being white in America? Have you never been to a parade with people other than white Americans waving flags?? Have you never been to a ball game and seen non-whites standing for the national anthem? Never seen non-whites with a flag at their house?
Americans, regardless of race or religions, are highly nationalistic, and thinking that it's only whites is really a disconnect I can't even fathom. I know that in my own family (both the majority Democrats as well as the Republicans) there are all sorts of symbols of patriotism and US fervor. And I seriously doubt that I'm in the one hispanic family in the country, or one minority family who feels that way or does such things.

So, nationalism isn't just something for whites only. Seriously...you need to really think about this stuff before saying it. I think immigrants are MORE fervently American and nationalistic in many ways than white folks who's families have been here for centuries.
...is this really what you meant when you referenced nationalism in this post? You genuinely believe that "non-whites standing for the national anthem" is a bigger threat to America than white supremacy?

Nationalism (as you appear to interpret it) is not generally regarded to be a threat. Nationalism as generally defined should be regarded as a threat. White nationalism is another thing all together, and in the context of this conversation was what both myself and Big T thought you were talking about.
  #139  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quite high chances, but the odds of me (or any American) being in the immediate vicinity of a shooting spree like El Paso are extremely low. Airplane-crash odds low.
True, but they encourage others who have yet to spring into action.

My own opinion is that this lone wolf terrorism, while difficult to control and inevitably resulting in scores of dead and injured, isn't the worst form of white supremacy violence that we could see.

What worries is the day when "White Christian Nationalism" or "White Nationalism" becomes more than just a phrase to describe the growing list of radical groups or fringe voters or even vocal Trump supporters. All of that is disturbing, but that's not the dark turn that I fear. That dark turn would be the time when we see an actual white nationalist movement that involves waves of white nationalist activists mainstreaming white nationhood to the degree that establishing white colonies out in, say, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, or hell, even New Hampshire, actually begins to take shape, with white nationalist neighborhoods, white nationalist churches, white nationalist shopping malls, white nationalist militias operating as de facto local security forces. That sounds nutter, but I think that's a very real possibility in the not-so-distant future, particularly if the current and future administrations succeed in gutting the civil rights divisions in the FBI and DoJ.

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  #140  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:32 PM
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... That dark turn would be the time when we see an actual white nationalist movement that involves waves of white nationalist activists mainstreaming white nationhood to the degree that establishing white colonies out in, say, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, or hell, even New Hampshire, actually begins to take shape, with white nationalist neighborhoods, white nationalist churches, white nationalist shopping malls, white nationalist militias operating as de facto local security forces. That sounds nutter, but I think that's a very real possibility in the not-so-distant future, particularly if the current and future administrations succeed in gutting the civil rights divisions in the FBI and DoJ.
You think the only thing preventing that today is the DoJ's civil rights division? Not a general lack of interest for most people in "establishing white colonies"? In other words, if it were legalized tomorrow, how many Americans do you think with move to Oregon to establish white colonies? Do you think it would be popular enough to be something more than a minor footnote along the lines of the Free State Project?
  #141  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:04 PM
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Some people's strategy is to convince white people that they're "one of the good ones". We'll see how that works out. They might get lucky and it works for them, but their children won't be as lucky I suspect.
  #142  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:14 PM
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iiandyiiii it seems to me that we need to call out white supremacist men in particular. White supremacist females exist, and they provide support for the movement in overt and covert ways, but the dangerous elements seem to be men. Thoughts?
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:15 PM
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I'm not sure I understand what you think the threat is. Even if we take everything you wrote as true, the "silent cheers" don't harm anyone. And if, for all their effort to "weaponize" the internet, they've only managed to recruit a handful of people willing to take violent action for their cause, it seems like a pretty mild threat, less dangerous than bee stings or lightning strikes. Could you elaborate further on what you see as the threat?
Ahhh, we have achieved consensus, for this is my feeling regarding "radical islam".
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:20 PM
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iiandyiiii it seems to me that we need to call out white supremacist men in particular. White supremacist females exist, and they provide support for the movement in overt and covert ways, but the dangerous elements seem to be men. Thoughts?
Fine with me!
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:28 PM
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iiandyiiii it seems to me that we need to call out white supremacist men in particular. White supremacist females exist, and they provide support for the movement in overt and covert ways, but the dangerous elements seem to be men. Thoughts?
Men are generally "the dangerous elements" in just about everything, not just white supremacy. We're the overwhelming source of (and recipients of) most of the world's violence.
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:30 PM
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Ahhh, we have achieved consensus, for this is my feeling regarding "radical islam".
Do you think "they've only managed to recruit a handful of people willing to take violent action for their cause" is an accurate description of radical islam?
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:35 PM
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You think the only thing preventing that today is the DoJ's civil rights division? Not a general lack of interest for most people in "establishing white colonies"? In other words, if it were legalized tomorrow, how many Americans do you think with move to Oregon to establish white colonies? Do you think it would be popular enough to be something more than a minor footnote along the lines of the Free State Project?
If it were legalized tomorrow, no, but if it were legalized after a period of time in which such ideas no longer seem so radical, I could absolutely see it. People as a whole can be racist and not interested in establish a white nation, but those who have such aspirations would absolutely kill to realize their achievement. People would absolutely kill in order to establish a white society, whether that's through bringing back Jim Crow Light, or through the creation of a white separatist society.
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:01 PM
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  #149  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:49 PM
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...is this really what you meant when you referenced nationalism in this post? You genuinely believe that "non-whites standing for the national anthem" is a bigger threat to America than white supremacy?

Nationalism (as you appear to interpret it) is not generally regarded to be a threat. Nationalism as generally defined should be regarded as a threat. White nationalism is another thing all together, and in the context of this conversation was what both myself and Big T thought you were talking about.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I believe that nationalism is a MUCH bigger threat to not only American lives but to the world. The 3 most numberous countries on the planet are all very nationalistic...and 2 of them aren't white. In addition, American nationalism is a bit different than you seem to be aware. From an earlier post I seem to recall you aren't an American, so perhaps you don't know this stuff so let me walk you through it. Maybe then you'll see that it's not about being white, and that non-whites can actually be as fervently, even fanatically nationalistic as white folks.

So, I started to notice this about 10 years back or so. I'm not a huge sports fan. I never had much use for any sports except martial arts, and I was never that interested in watching them. However, a lot of my friends are into sports at all levels...highschool, college and professional. Anyway, after 9/11 I noticed a lot more fervency in the crowd during things like the national anthem. Also, that a lot more nationalistic symbols of the US were on display. Finally, that the near reverence for the military had gotten to disturbing, or at least uncomfortable levels (for me at least). And, looking around at the crowd, it was clear that no one really noticed.

Now, a respect for the military and the country are important, even vital for the citizens. But this was at a whole other level. It was a bit creepy, and I'm a former military. When I was actually in the military, it was nothing like it is today at even highschool or college games. And that's not the only place where nationalism is apparent, to me at least. Maybe I'm like the OP...maybe I am seeing it blown out of proportion, but ISTM that US nationalism is making us more belligerant. And this isn't JUST whites. In my own family I've seen a change in attitudes. Like most extended hispanic families, there are a lot of us...and most of the family is Democrat. In fact, until 9/11 nearly all of them were Democrats to the core. But that's changed. Now, unreal as it might seem, several of my uncles and cousins are Republicans, and several of them, including my Dad until he passed away, were actually Trump supporters. Now try and wrap your head around that for just a second...my dad, mom, uncles and aunts, my grandma, all of that generation came here from Mexico. My dad was a bit easier to understand...he joined the military during the Vietnam war so that my mom and my siblings could become Americans, and be Americans. But the rest? It's hard to fathom. But the reason is, IMHO...nationalism. All of my family are fervent patriots, regardless of whether they are Democrats and hate Trump or Republicans and love him. But Democrat or Republican, they want the US to be confrontational in the world. China pissing us off? Trade war is A-Ok. North Korea a constant thorn? We should Do Something(tm) about that! EU being unfair in their trade? Hammer them into submission! Mexico(!!) getting advantages over us on trade and by sending their people here to steal our healthcare and jobs and send the money back to the home land? Well, we will fix THEIR wagons!

I think US nationalism has gotten out of hand, and has made us a nation ready to confront instead of lead, to reach for a bigger hammer instead of work with our allies. And the thing is, Chinese nationalism is even worse. Then you have Indian nationalism. And of course, the Japanese are going through a nationalistic phase. And then, horror of horrors, the Europeans are actually seemingly moving back towards nationalism...and that IS your white nationalism in a nut shell. Pun intended. Several countries in Africa are also in nationalistic grips.

All of these things, IMHO, are bigger 'ideological threat to American lives' than white supremacists in the US, who are a relatively small number in the greater scheme of things and who, again IMHO have little traction outside of their slimy caves and under dank rocks.

So, yes...I meant nationalism. And I meant it when I said that non-whites can and are fervent nationalists, just like white folks. Immigrants in the US are VERY fervent nationalists, IMHO and my experience, and this isn't just with my own family. And, yeah, the national anthem thing is disturbing...more for what it indicates and the vibe I get than anything I can spell out, especially with this much tequila. I'll leave it there since I probably wrote a stream of consious book at this point. Hopefully it's not as angry or warning filled as the last 2 attempts.
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  #150  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:04 PM
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Do you think "they've only managed to recruit a handful of people willing to take violent action for their cause" is an accurate description of radical islam?
In proportion to the overall number of moslems? Yes. You don't need a lot, you just need enough.
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