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Old 08-10-2019, 03:04 PM
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NYT says he was off suicide watch four days ago
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Old 08-10-2019, 03:41 PM
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Jeffrey lead such a rich and privileged life.
You two were on a first name basis?
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Old 08-10-2019, 03:50 PM
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Jeff is a friend of a friend. Prince Andrew and I go way back to our days flying helicopters in the Falklands. We felt Invincible in those days.



Maybe in another lifetime.

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  #54  
Old 08-10-2019, 03:51 PM
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Man, the CT's are going nuts today. Surprised to see so much of it here.

Epstein' s power and influence finally failed him. He was exposed as a pedophile and was facing the rest of his life doing hard time. People have chosen suicide when faced with far less dire circumstances.

I bitch about this board sometimes, but I do generally admire the skeptical attitude and evidence based reasoning that goes on here. Let's not lose sight of that.
Good try, but evidence-based reasoning goes out the window when one's worldview demands conspirators.

Loony right-wing sites are blaming Clinton, loony lefties are pointing at Trump, "wealthy associates" or the Russians.

Personally, I gotta go with the theory that Epstein faked his death, and is now living it up at a secret Trump International Beach Resort in Nicaragua.
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Old 08-10-2019, 04:01 PM
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Where'd he get the gun and the single bullet? :confused
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Old 08-10-2019, 04:12 PM
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Swingers gonna swing, huh?
  #57  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:21 PM
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How do you prove that something didn't happen? You could have 24hrs footage of him alone in his cell and then killing himself but maybe maybe he was given the instructions on how to make a rope out of cell materials and told his family would be tortured if he didn't do it!

I was reading some older articles and it sounds as though (a) "Suicide watch" is a broad spectrum between someone checking on you every half hour to being strapped to a plastic mattress naked with someone actively staring at you 24hrs a day and (b) suicides while on suicide watch aren't all that rare to assume that someone had to have assistance. I'd need to hear a lot more details about the watch itself and how he died before giving myself over to assuming that Clinton/Trump baked him a cake with a rope in it.
Not to mention would Clinton *really* benefit from his demise? Bluntly put, while Bill seems to have benefitted from knowing him [catching rides on his plane, parties, not sure what else] Bill is firmly out of politics and unless he somehow was involved at the 'also get sent to the slammer as an accomplice' there really is nothing more that will happen to him, and Hilary is probably also done with politics unless a future government wants her to become something like an ambassador or judge or whatever.

Seems like Trump is the one benefitting from his death.
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Old 08-10-2019, 04:29 PM
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I'm seeing a FB meme posted by a (former?) Doper that says Clinton had him killed. A far-left friend says Clinton did it. To what end? How does that make sense? Trump is the one who benefits from Epstein's death.
Anytime anyone who has ever been mentioned in the same sentence with the Clintons dies suddenly, some right wing whack-a-doodles will immediately spread the theory that the Clintons had him/her killed. No matter how tenuous the tie, no matter if no tie exists, the Clintons are responsible for every mysterious death. That's just how that crowd rolls.

The world is a better place for the loss of Epstein. I'm surprised he didn't flee months ago to some nation with no extradition treaty with the US.

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Old 08-10-2019, 04:32 PM
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Whitey Bulger did it. He faked his own murder in prison so he could go undercover and nail Epstein. Who's going to look for a dead man? The perfect crime.

But was he working for the FBI or was he double crossing them (again)?

BTW: There's been mention that if couldn't be murder as it was too risky, the "authorities" would find out too easily, yadda yadda. Um, the prison brass, regardless of what actually happened, are going to be extremely keen on calling it a suicide and walking away from it.
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:11 PM
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Is there really anyone (except maybe Epstein himself) who benefits from his death? From previous news reports, it sounds like authorities are already in possession of his blackmail material.
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:26 PM
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Barring any existing will to the contrary, his brother, who is the sole living immediate relative, will likely inherit the estate and have to deal with all the lawsuits that are certain to follow Epstein's death.
The brother could always decline the estate and leave it to defend itself. If the possible claims and awards are at all close to the amount of the estate, that might be a logical choice.
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:36 PM
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Is there really anyone (except maybe Epstein himself) who benefits from his death? From previous news reports, it sounds like authorities are already in possession of his blackmail material.
The fact that Epstein can no longer testify in court, if any criminal charges might be brought in the future against other involved parties, could be a benefit.

And, anyone who was once a friend or associate of Epstein's (including, but not limited to, both Trump and Clinton) no longer need to fear the reputational impact of Epstein describing details of their friendships.

For example, despite old quotes of Trump describing Epstein as "a terrific guy" and "a lot of fun to be with," Trump recently said "I had a falling out with him. I havenít spoken to him in 15 years. I was not a fan of his, that I can tell you." Epstein is no longer able to refute that (though there might be documentation that was taken from Epstein's residence which would refute it).
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:42 PM
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But they have the videos from his safe that are labeled with things like "name with young name". Surely those are as good as his testimony.
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Old 08-10-2019, 05:51 PM
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For things that are on those tapes, undoubtedly.

But, what if Epstein were to have said, "Sorry, Donald, but you and I kept in touch all this time, and we talked regularly on the phone up until three months ago?"
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Old 08-10-2019, 06:16 PM
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For things that are on those tapes, undoubtedly.



But, what if Epstein were to have said, "Sorry, Donald, but you and I kept in touch all this time, and we talked regularly on the phone up until three months ago?"
Even if he were believed, talking on the phone isn't proof of anything; other than that Trump's a liar, and it's a little late for him to start killing people to try to hide that fact.
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Old 08-10-2019, 07:06 PM
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But, what if Epstein were to have said, "Sorry, Donald, but you and I kept in touch all this time, and we talked regularly on the phone up until three months ago?"
What if Epstein had said, "I supplied underage girls to Trump for years. And here's a list of other prominent people I supplied underage girls to, and I'll testify as part of a plea bargain."
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Old 08-10-2019, 07:08 PM
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I've never been so pissed and joyous and fearful at the same time.
Pretty much my feelings.

He didn't commit the rapes by himself. He had help from subordinates. They apparently have not been charged and may get away without punishment.



If there's any "conspiracy" around his death, I think it's simpler than some political thing or a scared rich associate (I don't believe there's any evidence that he was part of a ring of wealthy pedophiles). Despite the evidence against him, this guy was a billionaire, capable of dispensing massive bribes, and protected by a powerful legal team for years or decades. Maybe he was simply "allowed" to die. They already knew he was suicidal, as he tried to kill himself earlier in his stay in jail.

There would be an investigation (of the death of a high profile billionaire accused child rapist) and I really don't think it's possible to hang someone without that being revealed in the autopsy... so I'm not buying stories about some assassin sneaking in there and offing him, or some recently jailed assassin doing the same. (Nor is a conspiracy that also includes whoever would do the autopsy at all reasonable.)
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Old 08-10-2019, 07:22 PM
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Where'd he get the gun and the single bullet?

If it's a single bullet, I'd be looking at where Deputy Fife was at the time...


ETA: I swear, I did not see MacCat beat me to this joke...

Last edited by digs; 08-10-2019 at 07:23 PM.
  #69  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:47 PM
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The one thing that prevents me from wholeheartedly believing this was a murder:

I'm no criminologist, but does it make sense for a murderer to try the same method twice (make-it-look-like-a-suicide) after the first method failed?
Happens a lot in domestic violence cases. Murderers don't tend to be particularly original, movies notwithstanding.
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Old 08-10-2019, 09:57 PM
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America's most high profile prisoner - a guy who may very well have had serious dirt on any number of rich and powerful figures - offs himself while on suicide watch a week after a failed attempt?

Nah. Nuh-uh. I'm not a conspiracy minded guy, but I'm going to need to see some serious evidence that the motherfucker wasn't "helped".
I would probably rephrase that more delicately but, I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment.
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Old 08-10-2019, 10:26 PM
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Where'd he get the gun and the single bullet?

Vince Foster baked it in a cake and mailed it to him from Arkancide, Arkansas.
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Old 08-10-2019, 10:29 PM
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Is there really anyone (except maybe Epstein himself) who benefits from his death? From previous news reports, it sounds like authorities are already in possession of his blackmail material.
Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss.
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Old 08-10-2019, 10:51 PM
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Loony right-wing sites are blaming Clinton
We can now include the White House among those loony right wing sites. Trump has tweeted that he believes the Clintons killed Epstein.
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Old 08-10-2019, 11:02 PM
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So he dies and is now officially innocent of all charges, right? I mean, as far as the law is concerned.

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Is that how the law works? Shouldn't the investigation continue into his customers?

I have not read each and every post and IANAL but I was talking to someone who is tonight; if the police and state go after this seriously it is possible - just possible - that it could help. For one thing it takes the big target away and should allow some more freedom/opportunity to pick off the other targets. Secondly he won't be able to misdirect or confuse the investigation. The really good/bad thing is that there are several victims public already who have made it clear that they are not considering this closed at all.

(It's bad that there are any victims; period. But that we have people with the strength ------ it's simply amazing.)
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Old 08-10-2019, 11:21 PM
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We can now include the White House among those loony right wing sites. Trump has tweeted that he believes the Clintons killed Epstein.
Now?
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:26 AM
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I won't be at all surprised if it turned out that Bill Clinton was involved in the sex crimes. We already know from the documents that were unsealed Friday that one of the sex slaves has said she was forced to have sex with former Democrat Gov Bill Richardson and former Democrat Sen George Mitchell. That same woman DID NOT implicate Trump : https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-bi...tein-documents

When you consider that Trump traveled in the same circles with these people before he became president and now, as President, has access to surveillance and intelligence info that other people don't, he probably knows more about what happened than what has been publicly released. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has a reason for making these allegations against the Clinton.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:00 AM
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has a reason for making these allegations against the Clinton.
He has a great reason. He's a pathological liar.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:06 AM
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Epstein’s death is so convenient for lots of very powerful people. Notwithstanding Larry Borgia’s skepticisms (seriously, a Borgia doubting a suspicious convenient death? ), and the circumstance show such amazing incompetence on the part of the ostensible guardians, that one had to be thinking foul play.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:15 AM
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Is there really anyone (except maybe Epstein himself) who benefits from his death? From previous news reports, it sounds like authorities are already in possession of his blackmail material.
Said materials use in Court is going to be a lot less now that Jeffrey Epstein is no longer around to testify to itís provenance or be confronted by it.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:16 AM
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Yesterday morning I asked my gf if she'd heard the surprising breaking news. She hadn't (she was just getting out of bed). She guessed Epstein was found dead in his cell.
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Old 08-11-2019, 10:47 AM
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Epsteinís death is so convenient for lots of very powerful people. Notwithstanding Larry Borgiaís skepticisms (seriously, a Borgia doubting a suspicious convenient death? ), and the circumstance show such amazing incompetence on the part of the ostensible guardians, that one had to be thinking foul play.
Epstein was probably the highest-profile most well connected criminal in the country. One who had yet to testify at trial. This together with his prior suicide attempt, then days later being taken off of suicide watch, and then provided with the means to hang himself certainly creates a suspicion imo. Definitely needs investigation.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:28 AM
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Now?
Even Trump must have realized it would be suspicious to tweet about Epstein's death before it happened.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:31 AM
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I won't be at all surprised if it turned out that Bill Clinton was involved in the sex crimes. We already know from the documents that were unsealed Friday that one of the sex slaves has said she was forced to have sex with former Democrat Gov Bill Richardson and former Democrat Sen George Mitchell. That same woman DID NOT implicate Trump : https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-bi...tein-documents

When you consider that Trump traveled in the same circles with these people before he became president and now, as President, has access to surveillance and intelligence info that other people don't, he probably knows more about what happened than what has been publicly released. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has a reason for making these allegations against the Clinton.
So this woman didn't accuse Clinton or Trump. And from this, you conclude Clinton must be guilty and Trump must be innocent.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:34 AM
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From all appearance, Trump actually is one of the few high profile people who didnít like Epstein.
Amazingly.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:41 PM
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From all appearance, Trump actually is one of the few high profile people who didnít like Epstein.
Amazingly.
Though, as noted earlier, that apparently wasn't always the case.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:46 PM
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From all appearance, Trump actually is one of the few high profile people who didn’t like Epstein.
Amazingly.
Most of Epstein's high profile friends, including Trump, stopped liking him around 2006.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 08-11-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:02 PM
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Even Trump must have realized it would be suspicious to tweet about Epstein's death before it happened.
LOL, good one.

There are suspicious facts surrounding this death and none point to Clinton involvement.

In the little backwater county where I was involved in the legal system for 20 years, this death would never have occurred. This was a high profile inmate. He was suicidal.

Even those of us peripherally involved with inmate custody understand that alleged pedophiles pose a particular risk of harm when housed in a general jail/prison population. They have targets on their backs as a matter of honor among other inmates in custody. That he was a highly publicized inmate put him doubly at risk. For these reasons alone, he should have been held in administrative segregation from day one, not housed with a cellmate accused of murdering 4 police officers.

Once it was established he was suicidal, he should have been monitored 24/7. He wasn't.

Why did Bill Barr take such a particular interest in where Epstein was housed pending trial proceedings, removing him from Rikers? That fact alone is jaw dropping, that the highest level official in the land would involve himself in housing decisions routinely and solely determined by the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

Why was Epstein initially placed with a potentially dangerous cellmate?

After the July 23rd incident, why was he not constantly monitored in ad seg? Whether he was attacked or attempted suicide, he was clearly at risk of one danger or the other.

Why was he given materials that could be used to commit suicide? I heard someone this morning who had spent time in that facility say that the bedding was as flimsy as paper, not useful for hanging oneself, by design. If true, what materials did Epstein have/use to hang himself?

Who had the access and authority to create these dangerous conditions?

Why was Trump so eager to propagate the Clinton conspiracy theory, and so immediately after the Epstein death? I agree with others that Trump's propensity for projection adds to the suspicious nature of this. Taken alone, it would not mean much. But when taken with other known facts, well...

With Barr at the helm, there is no chance we'll have a clean investigation into this. Even if we do, it would be a heavy lift to prove outside encouragement to suicide that would rise to the level of a chargeable crime.

Nice diversion for Trump and McConnell from white supremacist shootings, though, and convenient for a lot of powerful men in this country.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:06 PM
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There are lots of very powerful people who are glad that Epstein is dead and want the whole matter to be buried with him.
Very likely it will be.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:10 PM
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Most of Epstein's high profile friends, including Trump, stopped liking him around 2006.
Trump banned Epstein from Mar a Lago in 1999* and cut business ties in 2004. He also was apparently happy to speak to lawyers for people suing Epstein.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:57 PM
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I won't be at all surprised if it turned out that Bill Clinton was involved in the sex crimes. We already know from the documents that were unsealed Friday that one of the sex slaves has said she was forced to have sex with former Democrat Gov Bill Richardson and former Democrat Sen George Mitchell. That same woman DID NOT implicate Trump : https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-bi...tein-documents

When you consider that Trump traveled in the same circles with these people before he became president and now, as President, has access to surveillance and intelligence info that other people don't, he probably knows more about what happened than what has been publicly released. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has a reason for making these allegations against the Clinton.
Both Clinton and Trump have associated with Epstein, they've both ridden on his plane, they've both attended his parties. Only one of them has boasted about visiting the Miss Teen USA beauty pageant dressing room; which one was that?
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:07 PM
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The NYT has reported that the way he was housed goes against standard protocol for his jailers: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/n...al-center.html
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:57 PM
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There are suspicious facts surrounding this death and none point to Clinton involvement.
It's ridiculous to think that Bill Clinton, who's been out of office for eighteen years, would have the power to arrange to have somebody killed in prison.

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Why was Trump so eager to propagate the Clinton conspiracy theory, and so immediately after the Epstein death? I agree with others that Trump's propensity for projection adds to the suspicious nature of this. Taken alone, it would not mean much. But when taken with other known facts, well...
It's suspicious whenever somebody starts naming suspects before there's even an official accusation that a crime has occurred. It's a sign that somebody had foreknowledge of the crime and knew he would be a suspect in the eventual investigation.
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:59 PM
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There are lots of very powerful people who are glad that Epstein is dead and want the whole matter to be buried with him.
Very likely it will be.
No doubt a lot of people are glad that Epstein is dead. The question is who will be glad when the investigation into his death is closed.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:23 PM
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Both Clinton and Trump have associated with Epstein, they've both ridden on his plane, they've both attended his parties. Only one of them has boasted about visiting the Miss Teen USA beauty pageant dressing room; which one was that?
Well, there is a lot we don't know about yet, but just based on what we know so far, it appears that Clinton has lied about the trips he took on Epstein's plane. That's just a little suspicious.

There is also the comment from Nancy Pelosi's daughter predicting that "some of our faves" would end up being implicated in the Epstein case. OK, maaaaybe she was talking about Bill Richardson and George Mitchell, but I suspect she had someone else in mind.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:54 PM
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Epstein’s death is so convenient for lots of very powerful people. Notwithstanding Larry Borgia’s skepticisms (seriously, a Borgia doubting a suspicious convenient death? ), and the circumstance show such amazing incompetence on the part of the ostensible guardians, that one had to be thinking foul play.
9/11 was convenient for a lot of warmongers. It doesn't follow that said warmongers blew up the towers.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that Epstein was whacked. I'm just saying I'd like to see some evidence. A bunch of people would have to be in on it. Guards would need to be bribed, security measures circumvented. But so far I'm seeing nothing but people Just Asking Questions.

If there's actually evidence, I'm open minded. But right now suicide seems the most likely explanation.

Lol at your joke, though. I was reading a book on the Renaissance when I picked my name. I don't really like it but after 19 years it feels like my board identity now.

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Old 08-11-2019, 08:07 PM
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But right now suicide seems the most likely explanation.
This is what I think as well. Epstein fit the profile of somebody who would commit suicide. And I don't think there was any plan to make it easy for him to kill himself.

Killing Epstein while he was being guarded in prison would have required competence. Epstein being able to kill himself while people were trying to keep him alive would have required incompetence. And I find it a lot more plausible to attribute incompetence to the current administration than competence.

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Lol at your joke, though. I was reading a book on the Renaissance when I picked my name. I don't really like it but after 19 years it feels like my board identity now.
Tell me about it. I happened to be reading a Winsor McCay book the day I picked a new username and here I am twenty years later.
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Old 08-11-2019, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Tell me about it. I happened to be reading a Winsor McCay book the day I picked a new username and here I am twenty years later.
And if I was OldGuy when I became a charter member, just think of how old I must be now.
  #98  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:16 PM
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bobot is online now
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Trump banned Epstein from Mar a Lago in 1999* and cut business ties in 2004. He also was apparently happy to speak to lawyers for people suing Epstein.
Hey, what's up with that asterisk after 1999? Is that a typo? Or did you intend to provide a footnote or something? Are there cites for these claims?
  #99  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:25 PM
Sam Stone is offline
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I don't think Epstein was 'whacked'. But I wouldn't be surprised if some lawyer didn't pass along a message to him that all his friends have turned against him, that they'll make sure his family will go through hell if he testifies, that he'll be whacked in prison for sure anyway, and it would just be peachy for everyone if he took the honorable way out. Then all they had to do was bribe an administrator or just convince the guards to look the other way.

See 'The Godfather Part II' for instructions on how to do this. Frank Pentangeli went out that way.
  #100  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:41 PM
Little Nemo is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
I don't think Epstein was 'whacked'. But I wouldn't be surprised if some lawyer didn't pass along a message to him that all his friends have turned against him, that they'll make sure his family will go through hell if he testifies, that he'll be whacked in prison for sure anyway, and it would just be peachy for everyone if he took the honorable way out. Then all they had to do was bribe an administrator or just convince the guards to look the other way.

See 'The Godfather Part II' for instructions on how to do this. Frank Pentangeli went out that way.
We should keep an eye on the people who've talked to Epstein recently and see if any of them turn up dead. After all, if somebody passed a message like this to Epstein they wouldn't want a witness left.
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