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Old 08-11-2019, 08:56 PM
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I suspect the way it is done is always with an eye towards deniability. No one is going to say, 'Hey, I'll give you a hundred thousand to take that guy off suicide watch. Instead all you have to do is let the bribee know who you work for, then say something casual like, 'Man, it must suck to see a pedophile sitting pretty in here. You must hate having him on suicide watch. Well, if anything ever happens to the guy and you get blamed for it, come see me. I've helped people in your situation before..."

Unlike TV and the movies, high end corruption is almost never overt. People know how the game is played, and don't have to say anything that would be prosecutable to get what they want.
  #102  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:55 PM
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Except I think he used a sheet or something.
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  #103  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:57 PM
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I suspect the way it is done is always with an eye towards deniability. No one is going to say, 'Hey, I'll give you a hundred thousand to take that guy off suicide watch. Instead all you have to do is let the bribee know who you work for, then say something casual like, 'Man, it must suck to see a pedophile sitting pretty in here. You must hate having him on suicide watch. Well, if anything ever happens to the guy and you get blamed for it, come see me. I've helped people in your situation before..."

Unlike TV and the movies, high end corruption is almost never overt. People know how the game is played, and don't have to say anything that would be prosecutable to get what they want.
No, the first rule of prison corruption is always collect your bribe in advance. I can't count how many times I saw guys get burnt when they helped some prisoner escape who promised to send them money after he got home.
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:11 AM
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Dang it. I've still lost the pool. As I pointed out in this post following the last attempt, I had October. We kept the pool going and I had hopes his suicide would be rescheduled for later, just for appearances.

Oh well, winner still buys drinks, so it'll be a fun evening. And one subhuman has been removed from our planet - so it's all good.

Last edited by pullin; 08-12-2019 at 05:11 AM.
  #105  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:30 PM
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Has anyone seen the closed circuit TV footage of his alleged suicide?
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:37 PM
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I haven't heard anything about such footage. Do you know that it exists?
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:44 PM
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Has anyone seen the closed circuit TV footage of his alleged suicide?
The one where he autopsies an alien immediately before killing himself, that one?
  #108  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:00 PM
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The one where he autopsies an alien immediately before killing himself, that one?
... and when there is a close-up of the alien's face, it looks suspiciously Hillaryan? And then the autopsied alien winks?
  #109  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:20 PM
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9/11 was convenient for a lot of warmongers. It doesn't follow that said warmongers blew up the towers.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that Epstein was whacked. I'm just saying I'd like to see some evidence. A bunch of people would have to be in on it. Guards would need to be bribed, security measures circumvented. But so far I'm seeing nothing but people Just Asking Questions.

If there's actually evidence, I'm open minded. But right now suicide seems the most likely explanation.

<snip>
IMO, there's a difference between asking legitimate questions that are posed based on facts/actions taken/not taken by involved parties, and JAQ-ing off. To me, JAQ-ing off is the practice of asking questions with little to no basis in reality and with a particular outcome already determined. My questions are not of that sort. If Just Asking Questions means asking any questions, well, that doesn't seem a terribly productive way to conduct an investigation.

Some of the questions I posed do already have answers. For instance, I've learned Epstein was already housed in SHU, functionally administrative segregation. I've also learned that it is the practice of the Feds to house even ad seg inmates with a cellmate, which is different than the practice within the county where I worked.

I don't think it's necessary for "a bunch of people" to be in on it. I also don't think bribery is a requirement. Many who work within the prison systems are of the "just following orders" variety. Not all, but many. They are the sort who don't question why leadership makes the decisions they do. Reliable orders-followers are known within the chain of command.

To clarify, I would be surprised to learn someone else had killed Epstein. I don't think that's what happened. I think conditions may have been created to exploit his wish to kill himself, and when presented with the opportunity, he reliably did what was foreseeable.

This actually happened to a friend of mine, so I don't find it outside the realm of likelihood at all. An ugly business to be sure, but not provable in any way that someone else encouraged the predictable outcome.
  #110  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:22 PM
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William Barr is a total douchebag, but even douchebags can tell the truth once in a while. I think the following is true, and certainly more credible than most of the conspiracy theories:
U.S. Attorney General William Barr said Monday the Justice Department has already found "serious irregularities" at the Manhattan jail where Jeffrey Epstein was being held, adding that the facility "failed to adequately secure this prisoner."

Barr also issued a stern warning, saying the case was far from over and that anyone who may have conspired with Epstein "should not rest easy."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/epstei...barr-1.5244102
I'm going to posit that incompetence at the jail is the major factor that allowed this to happen, and apparently it wasn't the first time. As for others that Epstein might have implicated, that may still happen without his help.
  #111  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:35 PM
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I didn't read the linked article. (I'm at work.) But if he wants to talk about vague "irregularities" he can fuck himself. He needs to fill in the following blank:
The decision to lift the suicide watch was made by (blank).
  #112  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:52 PM
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I didn't read the linked article. (I'm at work.) But if he wants to talk about vague "irregularities" he can fuck himself. He needs to fill in the following blank:
The decision to lift the suicide watch was made by (blank).
You can add:
The decision to not move in another prisoner to the cell when his cellmate left.
The decision to not do checks every half an hour.

Incompetence is when Joe Pervert is left alone and kills himself. Violating all the rules for your most important prisoner goes beyond that.
  #113  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:54 PM
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Has anyone seen the closed circuit TV footage of his alleged suicide?
His cell was not covered by a camera. There was one covering the hallway, so they can tell exactly how often the guards checked.
  #114  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:56 PM
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William Barr is a total douchebag, but even douchebags can tell the truth once in a while. I think the following is true, and certainly more credible than most of the conspiracy theories:
U.S. Attorney General William Barr said Monday the Justice Department has already found "serious irregularities" at the Manhattan jail where Jeffrey Epstein was being held, adding that the facility "failed to adequately secure this prisoner."

Barr also issued a stern warning, saying the case was far from over and that anyone who may have conspired with Epstein "should not rest easy."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/epstei...barr-1.5244102
I'm going to posit that incompetence at the jail is the major factor that allowed this to happen, and apparently it wasn't the first time. As for others that Epstein might have implicated, that may still happen without his help.
It may.

As for Barr's "stern warning," gee, it's almost like he isn't in charge of the Bureau of Prisons or something.

He probably should have added one more comment to his warning that the case was far from over and that anyone who may have conspired with Epstein "should not rest easy." One potential co-conspirator can rest easy, so long as Barr is the overseer.

Re incompetence, well said, Voyager.
  #115  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:02 PM
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I'm going to posit that incompetence at the jail is the major factor that allowed this to happen, and apparently it wasn't the first time.
Did Barr acknowledge that Epstein had been transferred there at Barr's orders?

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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
Barr also issued a stern warning, saying the case was far from over and that anyone who may have conspired with Epstein "should not rest easy."
So we should expect more witness suicides.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 08-12-2019 at 03:04 PM.
  #116  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:28 PM
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Looks like there will be plenty of evidence against numerous alleged co-conspirators, even without Epstein's testimony:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/natio...uwe-story.html

"The raid was a stark reminder that the federal criminal investigation of Epstein’s alleged sex trafficking is not over, despite his Saturday death by apparent suicide in federal custody. New evidence recovered from the island compound could be used to charge others in the still unfolding case or as fodder for a civil forfeiture action aimed at seizing the property to provide restitution to his alleged victims."
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  #117  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:38 PM
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Jeff is a friend of a friend. Prince Andrew and I go way back to our days flying helicopters in the Falklands. We felt Invincible in those days.



Maybe in another lifetime.

This needs a group three dog night treatment:



Jeffrey was a Pedophile...


He was good friend of mine...


< next Doper? >
  #118  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:48 PM
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This needs a group three dog night treatment:



Jeffrey was a Pedophile...


He was good friend of mine...


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  #119  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:12 PM
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No, the first rule of prison corruption is always collect your bribe in advance. I can't count how many times I saw guys get burnt when they helped some prisoner escape who promised to send them money after he got home.
Really? You know of multiple instances where C/Os helped prisoners escape? In my law enforcement (admittedly not corrections) experience, that is a pretty rare thing.
  #120  
Old 08-13-2019, 01:21 PM
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Really? You know of multiple instances where C/Os helped prisoners escape? In my law enforcement (admittedly not corrections) experience, that is a pretty rare thing.
Seriously? You failed to scan that as humor?
  #121  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:11 PM
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Really? You know of multiple instances where C/Os helped prisoners escape? In my law enforcement (admittedly not corrections) experience, that is a pretty rare thing.
It's a pretty rare thing for someone who gets re-captured after the escape to have the C/Os assistance. When the C/Os are bribed and the wheels are greased the getaways are more apt to be clean and the means of escape remains a mystery. If the C/Os do the job properly you won't know they did anything at all. Like burning down a bar for the insurance.
  #122  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:58 AM
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I's clear to me that there is some conspiracy here, the dude's whole life is a dan brown book. But I think all we can ever see are the little flashes of a much bigger story that we can never access. It becomes like a Rorschach test where you fill in the blanks with your political ideology.

The world is such a tease now. I cant recall all the times I've felt "yes, finally we're going to get some answers" and then we get shut down.

Or we do get answers and absolutepy nothing comes of it and everybody's fine with that. This Epstein shit will live in the same purgatory in our minds all the mass shootings do- insanely fucked up and crazy shit that never goes anywhere.
  #123  
Old 08-14-2019, 04:58 PM
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Personally, I gotta go with the theory that Epstein faked his death, and is now living it up at a secret Trump International Beach Resort in Nicaragua.
The CT that I am about to post is presented solely for its entertainment value and does not reflect even a half-hearted belief in its efficacy.
  1. The first "suicide attempt" was a botched murder attempt
  2. Epstein realizes he's living on borrowed time
  3. The prosecutors, particularly those interested in netting whatever Big Fish they are going after, realize they need to resort to Extraordinary Means to ensure Epstein stays alive long enough to testify
  4. With his cooperation, they fake his death. The photo shown upthread is done with a little careful makeup to simulate the appearance of death.
  5. Epstein is now in a secure location while the loonies on both sides of the political spectrum spew forth, and more to the point, those with most to lose by Epstein testifying are now lulled into a false sense of security.

The preceding CT is made possible by a grant from the Institute of Total Whackadoodles, and Viewers Like You.
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  #124  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:38 PM
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CaptMurdock, I could only wish we were that competent.
  #125  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:25 AM
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Is there really anyone (except maybe Epstein himself) who benefits from his death?
Consider that his property can be ransacked for anything and everything, which is apparently underway at the hands of the FBI, ATVM. Whatsoever they collect will be immune to any counsels' motions to suppress.

So, who benefits? Let me see, the FBI operates under the auspices of the DoJ. Whoever might be in charge of that department would be able to control what evidence is used to go after people and what evidence is shelved, bricked-in or binned.

Or whoever might be in charge of the guy in charge of the DoJ. (Or that person's handlers.)
  #126  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:51 AM
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Autopsy finds broken bones in Epstein’s neck, deepening questions around his death
Quote:
An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.
...

The office of New York City’s chief medical examiner, Barbara Sampson, completed an autopsy of Epstein’s body Sunday. But Sampson listed the cause of his death as pending.

Asked about the neck injuries, Sampson said in a statement that no single factor in an autopsy can alone provide a conclusive answer about what happened.
...
The plot thickens.
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  #127  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:01 AM
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Jeffrey was a Pedophile...
He was good friend of mine...
Until he got himself arrested
And looking at hard jail time.

Then I did not know him
And all his under aged girls.
Under aged girls just ain't my style
In fact, I find it kind of vile.

I'm the Prez of the USA
And I'll tell you what I do.
I want to throw the bombs and start the wars.
But under aged girls; that just ain't cool.

Then I did not know him
And all his under aged girls.
Under aged girls just ain't my style
In fact, I find it kind of vile.

You know I love to be Prez.
Love to have my fun.
I'm a high life flyer but no rainbow rider
A straight shootin' son-of-a-gun
I said a straight shootin' son-of-a-gun

Then I did not know him
And all his under aged girls.
Under aged girls just ain't my style
In fact, I find it kind of vile.
  #128  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:24 AM
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The plot thickens? How do you figure? It says right there in the article you quoted:

Quote:
Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject.
In other words, it's not at all remarkable that Epstein had broken bones in his neck.
  #129  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:25 AM
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The plot thickens.
Does it? If they can occur in a suicide, especially in older males (of which Epstein was one) then I'd think that, barring additional evidence of foul play, the reasonable conclusion is that they were the result of the suicide.
  #130  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:56 AM
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The plot thickens? How do you figure? It says right there in the article you quoted:



In other words, it's not at all remarkable that Epstein had broken bones in his neck.
Also from that article:
Quote:
An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein suffered multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.
And the autopsy results are still pending.



BTW, my personal opinion is that it was suicide. But I'm not above promoting a good rumor.
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  #131  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:56 AM
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CaptMurdock, I could only wish we were that competent.
The Elephant In The Room of any conspiracy theory of the last sixty years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Does it? If they can occur in a suicide, especially in older males (of which Epstein was one) then I'd think that, barring additional evidence of foul play, the reasonable conclusion is that they were the result of the suicide.
The questions that the article did not answer:
  1. Was a tox screen performed? If so, did it detect the prescence of soporifics or other drugs in this system?
  2. Did they find bruising around his head and neck, indicative of a disabling blow?

Not ruling out a genuine suicide here, Inspector. Just asking...
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  #132  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:15 AM
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Using the largest study of a little less than 300 suicides by hanging only 6% of those had their hyoid bone broken. 75% of those determined to be homicides by strangulation had the hyoid bone broken. As I recall they mentioned weight, force of the fall, and age as variables. Does anyone know how these numbers might change based on those 3 variables?
  #133  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Also from that article:
The following is a statement of fact from the article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by the article you quoted from
Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject.
The following is an editorial statement from the article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by the article you quoted from
...deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.
WTF does that even mean? If it's not inconsistent with an old man hanging himself, and it's not inconsistent with homicide, then a finding of broken bones does not clarify or obfuscate the manner of his death at all; the depth of mystery (and the thickness of the plot) regarding the circumstances of his death is exactly the same as it was before anyone discovered that he had broken bones in his neck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
But I'm not above promoting a good rumor.
Are you aware of the nature of this website? Please, stop promoting rumors.

Last edited by Machine Elf; 08-15-2019 at 11:57 AM.
  #134  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:27 PM
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...
Are you aware of the nature of this website?
Gee, after 16,000+ posts, I don't have a clue. Suppose you edumacate me.

Quote:
Please, stop promoting rumors.
MSN did it first. I didn't make it up.
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  #135  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:14 PM
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<snip>

WTF does that even mean? If it's not inconsistent with an old man hanging himself, and it's not inconsistent with homicide, then a finding of broken bones does not clarify or obfuscate the manner of his death at all; the depth of mystery (and the thickness of the plot) regarding the circumstances of his death is exactly the same as it was before anyone discovered that he had broken bones in his neck.

Are you aware of the nature of this website? Please, stop promoting rumors.
I don't understand your need to take such a withering tone. At present, according to the medical examiner, the cause of death is undetermined. If sufficient evidence existed today to rule it a suicide, the medical examiner would have done so.

Apart from Bill Barr's words telling you so, what actual evidence do you have at this point that Epstein committed suicide? You think people never fake suicides in order to get away with murder? Do you think there might be an additional impetus for someone to engineer such an outcome if they stood to lose everything they have if certain information were to be revealed by Epstein?

Do you understand that by arguing so hotly in favor of a suicide ruling, you're literally taking Bill Barr's word for it, even ahead of the medical examiner's autopsy results? Me, I don't trust him at all. Worth noting he sure was quick to tell you what to think, though.

Epstein probably did commit suicide. He may have been aided by persons creating conditions that would allow and encourage him in that direction. Pretty convenient if you want to off someone and you can get them to do your dirty work for you.
  #136  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:27 PM
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I don't understand your need to take such a withering tone. At present, according to the medical examiner, the cause of death is undetermined. If sufficient evidence existed today to rule it a suicide, the medical examiner would have done so.

Epstein probably did commit suicide. He may have been aided by persons creating conditions that would allow and encourage him in that direction. Pretty convenient if you want to off someone and you can get them to do your dirty work for you.
You're trying to have it both ways here. You're implying that he had help committing suicide, but you're also implying that the medical evidence is insufficiency don't to determine that it was suicide.

I'm not going to dignify unsubstantiated assertions that "the official story" must be untrue because you dislike the AG - that's the same path that lead too many people into trutherism during the Bush years.

The facts are that Epstein attempted suicide once already and had ample time to attempt it again. In the absence of any hard evidence to the contrary, this is much more likely than the idea that the prison warden, most of the staff, and the Department of Justice were involved in a massive plot to let someone sneak into his cell and throttle him - an act which is not an easy way to kill someone.
  #137  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:47 PM
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You're trying to have it both ways here. You're implying that he had help committing suicide, but you're also implying that the medical evidence is insufficiency don't to determine that it was suicide.

I'm not going to dignify unsubstantiated assertions that "the official story" must be untrue because you dislike the AG - that's the same path that lead too many people into trutherism during the Bush years.

The facts are that Epstein attempted suicide once already and had ample time to attempt it again. In the absence of any hard evidence to the contrary, this is much more likely than the idea that the prison warden, most of the staff, and the Department of Justice were involved in a massive plot to let someone sneak into his cell and throttle him - an act which is not an easy way to kill someone.
Trust me. You haven't dignified anything.

All I said was that the manner of death is at present undetermined. You're putting words in my mouth to assert I've said anything else. I have simply chosen to not blindly accept the representations of a man who has lied to us about pretty important stuff in the past.

We don't even know that Epstein attempted suicide once already. I've heard conflicting reports about it, indicating he 1) either attempted suicide or 2) was attacked.

If he attempted suicide once already, why was he given ample time to attempt it again? Why was he left alone in his cell, when it was contrary to their own protocol?

You said lots of people have to be "in on" such a plan. I don't think that the "prison warden, most of the staff and the Department of Justice" must be involved. You've thrown all those folks in there to make it look like exploring other scenarios is wacky.

The prison warden is very inexperienced. He may not even have realized if he was given an order that is contrary to protocol.

"Most of the staff"? Who, besides the one person who killed him? And why does it have to be a prison guard? You don't think there are inmates who wouldn't be pleased to kill him for nothing if they were given the chance?

As for the whole Department of Justice... really? How about just one person who runs the whole institution, knows what may be at risk and to whom, and has the power to manipulate the system in such a way as to create favorable conditions?

There's no need for a big plot. Just a small one with a foreseeable outcome. That's why I said he probably did commit suicide. But it's not a certainty at this point.
  #138  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptMurdock View Post
The CT that I am about to post is presented solely for its entertainment value and does not reflect even a half-hearted belief in its efficacy.
  1. The first "suicide attempt" was a botched murder attempt
  2. Epstein realizes he's living on borrowed time
  3. The prosecutors, particularly those interested in netting whatever Big Fish they are going after, realize they need to resort to Extraordinary Means to ensure Epstein stays alive long enough to testify
  4. With his cooperation, they fake his death. The photo shown upthread is done with a little careful makeup to simulate the appearance of death.
  5. Epstein is now in a secure location while the loonies on both sides of the political spectrum spew forth, and more to the point, those with most to lose by Epstein testifying are now lulled into a false sense of security.

The preceding CT is made possible by a grant from the Institute of Total Whackadoodles, and Viewers Like You.
Challenge accepted.

Aliens from the future time traveled back to Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. The military captured their time machine and kept it hidden in a secret bunker. Bill Clinton seized control of the time machine by executive order when he became President. He then had Vince Foster, Seth Rich, and Ron Brown time travel to 2019 where they abducted Jeffrey Epstein. They brought Epstein back to 2001, placed him inside the World Trade Center, and staged a terrorist attack to kill Epstein. A cell from Epstein's body was then used to clone a duplicate corpse, which was returned to his cell in 2019 to make it look like he had committed suicide. Clinton then arranged to have Forster, Rich, and Brown killed in order to keep this all secret.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 08-15-2019 at 08:20 PM.
  #139  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:25 PM
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The facts are that Epstein attempted suicide once already and had ample time to attempt it again. In the absence of any hard evidence to the contrary, this is much more likely than the idea that the prison warden, most of the staff, and the Department of Justice were involved in a massive plot to let someone sneak into his cell and throttle him - an act which is not an easy way to kill someone.
If the theory that Epstein was murdered is so crazy, why is the President of the United States saying it happened?
  #140  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:04 PM
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If the theory that Epstein was murdered is so crazy, why is the President of the United States saying it happened?
This president says crazy things all the time.
  #141  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:16 PM
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All I said was that the manner of death is at present undetermined. You're putting words in my mouth to assert I've said anything else. I have simply chosen to not blindly accept the representations of a man who has lied to us about pretty important stuff in the past.
Then take the word of the FBI, the medical examiner, and the staff who've admitted that it was a colossal screwups.

Quote:
We don't even know that Epstein attempted suicide once already.
Being found with neck injuries consistent with self-inflicted hanging in a solitary unit is evidence of attempted suicide.

Quote:
I've heard conflicting reports about it, indicating he 1) either attempted suicide or 2) was attacked.
Source for what you "heard"?

Quote:
If he attempted suicide once already, why was he given ample time to attempt it again? Why was he left alone in his cell, when it was contrary to their own protocol?
Asked and answered. His lawyers requested he be taken off watch, and the guards have admitted to slacking off.

Quote:
You said lots of people have to be "in on" such a plan. I don't think that the "prison warden, most of the staff and the Department of Justice" must be involved. You've thrown all those folks in there to make it look like exploring other scenarios is wacky.
You posit the existence of an outside interloper entering a maximum security facility, accessing a solitary unit, manually asphyxiating a man, staging a suicide, and leaving without any witnesses or records of his presence. This is comparable to asserting that nobody noticed bombs were being planted in the World Trade Center.

Quote:
Most of the staff"? Who, besides the one person who killed him? And why does it have to be a prison guard? You don't think there are inmates who wouldn't be pleased to kill him for nothing if they were given the chance?
Hoe does an inmate get into someone else's solitary unit?

Quote:
As for the whole Department of Justice... really? How about just one person who runs the whole institution, knows what may be at risk and to whom, and has the power to manipulate the system in such a way as to create favorable conditions?
You'd think that one person would know that Epstein dying would ensure any evidence Epstein had wouldn't be subject to Fourth Amendment scrutiny.

If the intent was to kill Epstein and make it look like a suicide, why would it be done in such a way that leaves such blatant points of "evidence"? Why not ensure that all the watch records were up to date, the guards had their stories straight, and the autopsy report was concise and unquestioning? You may as well assert that Epstein was a crisis actor.

Last edited by Smapti; 08-15-2019 at 09:19 PM.
  #142  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:19 PM
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I'm not the only one asking questions, by the way. Here is the text of the letter sent from the House Judiciary Committee to the Acting Director of the Bureau of Prisons posing 23 questions to be answered.

Please note it is jointly signed by both the Chairman and the Ranking Member of the Minority.

Not really the same thing as a "truther" CT, is it?
  #143  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:24 PM
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I'm not the only one asking questions, by the way.
Sorry, I didn't realize you were Just Asking Questions.

Carry on, then.
  #144  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:41 PM
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Then take the word of the FBI, the medical examiner, and the staff who've admitted that it was a colossal screwups.
Your source for the word of the FBI? If you have such information, by all means link to it.

The medical examiner has not yet issued any formal ruling re cause of death.

Your source for the staff who've "admitted" that it was a colossal screw up? Again, if you have such information, linking to it would be helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
Being found with neck injuries consistent with self-inflicted hanging in a solitary unit is evidence of attempted suicide.
The neck injuries are not entirely consistent with self-inflicted hanging. Hence the 'undetermined' designation by the medical examiner to date. You seem to want to conveniently ignore this.

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Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
Source for what you "heard"?
It was on the news. Sorry you missed hearing it. But here you go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
Asked and answered. His lawyers requested he be taken off watch, and the guards have admitted to slacking off.
Lawyers don't determine whether an inmate is taken off suicide watch. There is a protocol for making this determination, irrespective of what the lawyers requested.

I'm sure the guards did slack. Was it known they did this? Was it a regular occurrence? And if so, apparently they did get away with falsifying records for some time, didn't they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
You posit the existence of an outside interloper entering a maximum security facility, accessing a solitary unit, manually asphyxiating a man, staging a suicide, and leaving without any witnesses or records of his presence. This is comparable to asserting that nobody noticed bombs were being planted in the World Trade Center.
Nope. Where did I ever invoke an "outside interloper?" Now you're just making stuff up. One sympathetic guard is all it would take.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
Hoe does an inmate get into someone else's solitary unit?
It's unlikely and I readily admit that. But my 'most likely scenario' doesn't involve direct murder. I have maintained ad nauseam that I believe Esptein most likely died by his own hand, his suicidal tendencies deliberately exploited for the purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
You'd think that one person would know that Epstein dying would ensure any evidence Epstein had wouldn't be subject to Fourth Amendment scrutiny.

If the intent was to kill Epstein and make it look like a suicide, why would it be done in such a way that leaves such blatant points of "evidence"? Why not ensure that all the watch records were up to date, the guards had their stories straight, and the autopsy report was concise and unquestioning? You may as well assert that Epstein was a crisis actor.
One does wonder, doesn't one? The one thing we know about the Trump Administration is, they are fairly incompetent. How long did it take us to figure out we were being lied to by Barr with the Mueller report?
  #145  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:51 PM
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Sorry, I didn't realize you were Just Asking Questions.

Carry on, then.
I think you took my meaning out of context by only partial quoting. Not really cricket.
  #146  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:54 AM
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If he attempted suicide once already, why was he given ample time to attempt it again? Why was he left alone in his cell, when it was contrary to their own protocol?
Really?

Our society despises those who exploit/rape children. That's what Epstein is accused of. Give the vitriol exhibited towards pedophiles it's within reason that he was left alone because someone working at the prison literally didn't care if such "scum" killed himself or not. It doesn't take a massive conspiracy, just malicious indifference.
  #147  
Old 08-16-2019, 11:40 AM
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I Tried to Tell the World About Epstein’s Jail. No One Wanted to Listen.
The Metropolitan Correctional Center has become notorious for decades of inhumane treatment.
Quote:
“URGENT,” the emails were marked. Since Jeffrey Epstein’s death at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, at least 20 reporters and shows from a broad cross section of the nation’s major news outlets have reached out for context and comment about the federal penitentiary. I spent a decade trying to get media outlets to pay attention to the MCC, in Lower Manhattan, pleading with journalists for hours on the phone, over email, and in person to launch investigations of the jail. Over and over, for years, these media organizations did not follow up.

Suddenly, there was urgency to talk about the conditions at MCC. The jail now provided an intriguingly grimy backdrop to an already sordid story. The question is whether a sustained light will actually be shined on the conditions there, or whether the widespread fascination with MCC just becomes part of the spectacle.
...

When the news broke about Epstein’s death, Attorney General William Barr said he was shocked, calling for an investigation into the “serious irregularities” at MCC. Then on Tuesday, attempting to foist the blame on underlings, he reassigned the warden and put two guards on administrative leave.

This is willful shock, a deeply disingenuous surprise. The scandal is not a few rogue employees. The surprise is not that a man in federal custody who had shown suicidal tendencies managed to kill himself, nor conversely that a man could be killed behind bars. Barr and his DOJ (like previous DOJ officials) knew MCC was structured on “irregularities.” So did U.S. Attorney Geoffrey Berman, and his predecessor, Preet Bharara. So did the judges of the Southern District of New York. The federal prison system is replete with “irregularities.”

The real scandal is that the horrors of MCC have existed for decades, hidden in plain sight. The journalist Aviva Stahl published a searing exposé last year in Gothamist on conditions at MCC that documented the filth, rodents, overflowing sewage, deeply substandard medical care, wrenching isolation, and often indifferent—and at times, cruel—staff. From reports from lawyers and people imprisoned there, to the legal motions they have filed attempting to mitigate the inhumane conditions, to the hundreds of administrative remedies prisoners have filled out to request remediation (the first step prisoners must take to document problems with their conditions), to the research of scholars and human-rights organizations, the abusive and corrupt conditions at MCC are well documented.

But a broad swath of public officials, from the attorney general on down, have chosen to countenance these conditions—and major news organizations haven’t pressed the issue.
...

The public attention to Epstein’s suicide could change that—but only if the public resists the seductive scandal of it all and insists on seeing the structural problems that Epstein’s time at MCC exposes.

First the basics: MCC is a pretrial federal facility run by the Bureau of Prisons, which is part of the Department of Justice and overseen by Congress, that holds people awaiting trial on charges in the Southern District of New York. This means that the people it holds are presumed innocent, and the law ostensibly prohibits their punishment before conviction.
...

Lawyers and people held there awaiting trial regularly report appalling conditions. The temperature is not adequately regulated; the facility is often sweltering in the summer and so cold in the winter that prisoners report having trouble thinking and wearing layers of clothes to be able to sleep. A single psychiatrist serves both MCC and the Metropolitan Detention Center, another federal facility located in Brooklyn. People report being “treated” through the slat in their cell door. The facility is run down, and the plumbing and elevators break often.
...

According to studies, rates of suicide in jail are higher than in prison. And Epstein had reportedly already made one attempt to take his own life. While MCC is a special breed of hell, its approach to mental health is indicative of the BOP’s broad, cruel indifference to mental-health care. Faced with a spate of suicides in 2012, for instance, the BOP director sent every prisoner in federal custody an absurd letter. “At times you may feel hopeless about your future, and your thought may turn to suicide,” Director Charles E. Samuels wrote. “If you are unable to think of solutions other than suicide, it is not because solutions do not exist; it is because you are currently unable to see them. Do not lose hope.”
...

The question now is whether MCC will merely serve as the dirty backdrop to bizarre conspiracy theories and sordid accountings of Epstein’s last hours, allowing the inhumanity to remain hidden in plain sight—or whether Epstein’s death is going to finally force us to see what is going on in Lower Manhattan and insist conditions at MCC finally be addressed.
....
My bold.

Well, gee whiz. Why wouldn't such words of comfort be good enough?
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  #148  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:37 PM
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The ME's final report is out.

The verdict?

Suicide by hanging.
  #149  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:59 PM
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I don't understand your need to take such a withering tone. At present, according to the medical examiner, the cause of death is undetermined. If sufficient evidence existed today to rule it a suicide, the medical examiner would have done so.

Apart from Bill Barr's words telling you so, what actual evidence do you have at this point that Epstein committed suicide? You think people never fake suicides in order to get away with murder? Do you think there might be an additional impetus for someone to engineer such an outcome if they stood to lose everything they have if certain information were to be revealed by Epstein?

Do you understand that by arguing so hotly in favor of a suicide ruling, you're literally taking Bill Barr's word for it, even ahead of the medical examiner's autopsy results? Me, I don't trust him at all. Worth noting he sure was quick to tell you what to think, though.

Epstein probably did commit suicide. He may have been aided by persons creating conditions that would allow and encourage him in that direction. Pretty convenient if you want to off someone and you can get them to do your dirty work for you.
In the IMHO poll thread, I did opine that he likely killed himself, and was likely able to do so due to run-of-the-mill incompetence/negligence on the part of jailhouse staff.

Nowhere have I argued hotly in favor of a suicide ruling; I have only argued in favor of acknowledging that a finding of broken bones in Epstein's neck does absolutely nothing to differentiate between suicide and homicide.

Part of my annoyance is with MSN for suggesting that such a finding somehow deepens the mystery surrounding his death. The other part of my annoyance is ThelmaLou's implication ("The plot thickens") that this finding casts any kind of doubt on the possibility of suicide. She cited MSN's lame-ass editorializing ("deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death") as some kind of evidence that justified her spreading rumors on a site that is dedicated to ascertaining and spreading facts. When I called her on it, she resorted to the miscreant schoolchild's time-honored defense:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou
[They] did it first.


Stay classy.
  #150  
Old 08-16-2019, 06:00 PM
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...


Stay classy.
I'm only hooman.
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