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  #51  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:07 PM
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Missed edit: a HALO jump without a parachute is impossible.
  #52  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:15 PM
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Missed edit: a HALO jump without a parachute is impossible.
Yeah, that would be a HANO jump.

As in "Hey! No! I ain't doing that!"
  #53  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:44 PM
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Yeah, that would be a HANO jump.

As in "Hey! No! I ain't doing that!"

I believe it was performed in Argentina in the 70’s.
  #54  
Old 03-16-2019, 02:15 AM
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But having rape fantasies and wanting to be raped are two very different things.
Sure, but nobody claimed that women wanted to be raped, only that rape fantasies were common and that (according to one link at least) women show more interest than men in the most violent forms of porn. Although some do express this desire. But here, we are indeed in the realm of "a few", as far as I can tell.

For the record, one of the pages I checked when writing my post claimed that a large number of men have rape fantasies as well (48%), which surprised me a bit. But I don't know if it's as well established for men as it is for women.
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  #55  
Old 03-16-2019, 02:45 AM
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That’s not the point. A person always have the right to (when possible) withdraw consent for any action.
HALO jumps ads a real thing. “Wanting” to be raped is like a HALO jumo without a parachute.
Yes, but those women who want to be raped actually want the actually non consensual form of rape. The desire they express is the "jump without parachute", and without expectation to enjoy it, even secretly. They want the bad experience of rape. Similarly there are women who want to be physically abused, not as in a controlled form of violence, BDSM way, but as in uncontrolled violence, domestic abuse way.

Surprisingly, a lot of woman with rape fantasies (not talking anymore about women who want to be actually raped) don't fantasize about something that turns out to be pleasurable (it's mentioned in one of my quote : 46% have "aversive" rape fantasies). They don't fantasize about being overpowered by some attractive male, and after having vainly tried to resist, giving up having some terrific orgasms, they fantasize about feeling afraid, humiliated, etc... about an experience that is extremely unpleasant and even traumatic from beginning to end.

Two women I'm in contact with on Deviantart and who write rape porn write about such "aversive" fantasies. One tends to describe rapes accompanied by severe violence. The other rather insists on the terrible feelings of the victim (to whom she identifies, she always writes in the first person), and the awfulness of the experience, up to details like the rapist having a terrible breath, for instance (and while it's relatively easy to distance oneself from what the first writes, it's difficult to do so with the second's work ). Neither describe the woman as enjoying the experience at any point, at the contrary. In real life, both are submissive in a BDSM lesbian relationship.
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  #56  
Old 03-16-2019, 06:19 AM
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And here I thought you were a boring middle age French dude*. We need more of you on this forum.

That’s interesting. And it does tally with my own experience that female sexuality is a lot freer than male.
It’s because since contarary to popular opinion, society spends much more effort in suppressing male sexuality than female.

*Admittedky boring for a Frenchman is a tad different than it is for us.
  #57  
Old 03-16-2019, 07:37 AM
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13 or 14, probably.
Then, it's different. I would assume that women would't do this...Although thinking of it, maybe I'm naďve. It's not like anybody would admit to this....


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Which I thought Kobal2 was talking about at first. Compare that with people doing something opportunistically and compulsively, to only certain selected individuals, and yeah I think there's an element of forced attention there that supplies gratification, and that's the main difference. And I believe that to be more common in men, meaning paraphilic men, but certainly not limited to them.
I definitely agree that there's a difference. As for whether the first is more common in men, maybe. I just suspect that it's more common in women that some would assume.

And as I wrote above, women might have more opportunities to express it in situations where it will be tolerated, as in my "wild clubbing" example. A woman in this situation is likely to get a pass and even to receive positive attention. A man, outside of a gay club, is likely to end up on the sex offender registry, so the same action, for the same reasons, will be labelled an aggressive and criminal behavior for men, and "being wild " (or drunk) for women. People reading the paper will hear about the former, but not about the latter, and even if they do, probably won't care that much anyway. And the idea that "men aggressively flash unsuspecting victims while women don't do that" will stick.

Again, I'm not *asserting* that it's equally common in both genders. *There are* differences in behavior between men and women.
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  #58  
Old 03-16-2019, 07:57 AM
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I met my first Female to Male transexual in 1978, introduced to me by Dr. Money. She told our student group about her story, and I remember thinking at that time that "gosh, this transgender idea is a real thing. And changing to another gender is an appropriate approach to dealing with it".
Sorry, clumsy fingers got my pronouns reversed. He told us his story.

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  #59  
Old 03-16-2019, 08:56 AM
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Yes, but those women who want to be raped actually want the actually non consensual form of rape. The desire they express is the "jump without parachute", and without expectation to enjoy it, even secretly. They want the bad experience of rape. Similarly there are women who want to be physically abused, not as in a controlled form of violence, BDSM way, but as in uncontrolled violence, domestic abuse way.

Surprisingly, a lot of woman with rape fantasies (not talking anymore about women who want to be actually raped) don't fantasize about something that turns out to be pleasurable (it's mentioned in one of my quote : 46% have "aversive" rape fantasies). They don't fantasize about being overpowered by some attractive male, and after having vainly tried to resist, giving up having some terrific orgasms, they fantasize about feeling afraid, humiliated, etc... about an experience that is extremely unpleasant and even traumatic from beginning to end.

Two women I'm in contact with on Deviantart and who write rape porn write about such "aversive" fantasies. One tends to describe rapes accompanied by severe violence. The other rather insists on the terrible feelings of the victim (to whom she identifies, she always writes in the first person), and the awfulness of the experience, up to details like the rapist having a terrible breath, for instance (and while it's relatively easy to distance oneself from what the first writes, it's difficult to do so with the second's work ). Neither describe the woman as enjoying the experience at any point, at the contrary. In real life, both are submissive in a BDSM lesbian relationship.
This does exist as a bona fide kink, but for most people it would defeat the purpose to be fantasizing about sex that they absolutely don't want. People construct fantasies with all the parameters controlled, so sex is predetermined (“wanted”) and the excitement would be in getting to it, in being coerced or overpowered or seduced or whatever, as in your typical romance novel. Everyone seems to get this.

Now packaging it under “rape fantasy” along with the with the purely aversive or abusive experiences is kind of sloppy, and I don't see the point of it at all. Why would we do this?
  #60  
Old 03-16-2019, 12:07 PM
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And then you have girls like an ex (now good friend) of mine, who rubs off while thinking about rocks. Not rocks inserted anywhere, or rocks doing anything, or anthropomorphized rocks, or suggestively shaped rocks... no. Just the mental image of neat, polished rocks. Pebbles. Large pebbles. Like on a beach. That gets her right the fuck off, apparently. What the hell is anybody supposed to do with that ?! That's what I want to know.
My bolding.

Ha! This is something which I've never mentioned to anyone before, but my ex-wife would sometimes think about plates during sex. Dinner plates in different color. Well, and ceramics as well. I had absolutely no idea that someone would do that and now I find out that your ex as something sort of similar.

As far as your rhetorical question, why would you want to do something with it? As long as it’s increasing her enjoyment, why not?
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I think it's not a secret that rape fantasies are possibly the most common fantasies for women (more than half of them, according to some studies, but in any case very common).
My ex (the same as above) also had rape fantasies, which really turned her on, but she didn’t want violent sex or very “realistic” rape play.

Another ex loved to hear what turned me on about other women. She had no apparent interest in opening the relationship up, she would just get off talking about sexy women while we were having sex. I don’t read Dan Savage much anymore, but having kinks just doesn’t seem that weird after reading his column.
  #61  
Old 03-16-2019, 01:12 PM
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13 or 14, probably.
Then, it's different. I would assume that women would't do this...Although thinking of it, maybe I'm naďve. It's not like anybody would admit to this....


Quote:
Which I thought Kobal2 was talking about at first. Compare that with people doing something opportunistically and compulsively, to only certain selected individuals, and yeah I think there's an element of forced attention there that supplies gratification, and that's the main difference. And I believe that to be more common in men, meaning paraphilic men, but certainly not limited to them.
I definitely agree that there's a difference. As for whether the first is more common in men, maybe. I just suspect that it's more common in women that some would assume.

And as I wrote above, women might have more opportunities to express it in situations where it will be tolerated, as in my "wild clubbing" example. A woman in this situation is likely to get a pass and even to receive positive attention. A man, outside of a gay club, is likely to end up on the sex offender registry, so the same action, for the same reasons, will be labelled an aggressive and criminal behavior for men, and "being wild " (or drunk) for women. People reading the paper will hear about the former, but not about the latter, and even if they do, probably won't care that much anyway. And the idea that "men aggressively flash unsuspecting victims while women don't do that" will stick.

Again, I'm not *asserting* that it's equally common in both genders. *There are* differences in behavior between men and women.
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  #62  
Old 03-16-2019, 01:15 PM
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I think a lot of women have rape fantasies and pursue violent porn for the same reason that phobics sometimes flirt around with whatever it is they're afraid of. If you can normalize the thing which is absolutely something you validly and rightly fear might happen to you then perhaps if/when it does you'll have inured yourself enough to survive the experience. Anecdotally, my own taste for violent sexual fantasy waned after I separated from my abusive partner and nowadays I get queasy at even a mild rape scene in a network tv show. I no longer need to be inured from the thing that used to be a regular occurrence in my life.
  #63  
Old 03-16-2019, 01:33 PM
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This does exist as a bona fide kink, but for most people it would defeat the purpose to be fantasizing about sex that they absolutely don't want. People construct fantasies with all the parameters controlled, so sex is predetermined (“wanted”) and the excitement would be in getting to it, in being coerced or overpowered or seduced or whatever, as in your typical romance novel. Everyone seems to get this.

Now packaging it under “rape fantasy” along with the with the purely aversive or abusive experiences is kind of sloppy, and I don't see the point of it at all. Why would we do this?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. By "packaging" you mean mentioning both in the same post? And I'm not sure if you mean women who have "rape desires" and women who have "rape fantasies", or if you mean women who have "aversive" rape fantasies and women who have "erotic" rape fantasies. And who are "we"?

If the former, I was responding to a post by someone who seemed to assume that women will necessarily all desire an experience where they're in control. And it made me think that also rape fantasies aren't necessarily "as your typical romance novel", as you put it and the poster I was responding to seemed to assume. Whatever the romance novel, the woman, at least eventually, enjoy the ride. In the case of rape fantasies, they're almost as likely to be fantasying, not just about a situation where they aren't in control, but even about an entirely negative experience. As for why they would be put together : presumably because in a study they don't necessarily ask *what kind* of rape fantasy. And for the second figure, I guess they just thought that they were both "rape fantasies" anyway, and the difference in nature didn't justify to study them separately. Doesn't seem particularly surprising to me.
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  #64  
Old 03-16-2019, 02:11 PM
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For the record, one of the pages I checked when writing my post claimed that a large number of men have rape fantasies as well (48%)
Strictly speaking, that could have a couple of very different meanings.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:03 PM
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If it isn't something your family, friends, or social circle would find objectionable in at least a small way, why have a fantasy about it? You could just do it, right? If you are fantasizing about the sexual activities you actually do you're wasting time. Men are subject to more strictly legal consequences for "aberrant" sexual behavior in public. Women are more often subject to other types of consequences. Guys who take off their shirts rather more often, and in rather more places in public than most aren't thought of as being deviant. They are often thought of as being sexy. For women, the bar for being thought of as sexy is a fair bit lower. Letting a shoe dangle from your toe would be perceived far differently than the same behavior by a man.

I had a long cyber interchange on a website that I won't name, although it may have been named here, about how to arrange to have a gangbang. The discussion went through a lot of elements of the possibility of turning a fantasy into an actual experience. The part that was most fascinating to me was that so many women on the site privately messaged me thanking me for the quality of the advice I was giving. Some of those women mentioned their own experiences, and assumed that my comments were based on "professional" expertise. I was just being thoroughly open about the possibilities of unfortunate outcomes, and strategies for limiting those. A purely intellectual exercise, although stimulatingly erotic to do.

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Old 03-16-2019, 10:20 PM
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean. By "packaging" you mean mentioning both in the same post? And I'm not sure if you mean women who have "rape desires" and women who have "rape fantasies", or if you mean women who have "aversive" rape fantasies and women who have "erotic" rape fantasies. And who are "we"?

If the former, I was responding to a post by someone who seemed to assume that women will necessarily all desire an experience where they're in control. And it made me think that also rape fantasies aren't necessarily "as your typical romance novel", as you put it and the poster I was responding to seemed to assume. Whatever the romance novel, the woman, at least eventually, enjoy the ride. In the case of rape fantasies, they're almost as likely to be fantasying, not just about a situation where they aren't in control, but even about an entirely negative experience. As for why they would be put together : presumably because in a study they don't necessarily ask *what kind* of rape fantasy. And for the second figure, I guess they just thought that they were both "rape fantasies" anyway, and the difference in nature didn't justify to study them separately. Doesn't seem particularly surprising to me.
We would be women. You understood me and I think your answers are correct, but the particulars of this topic can, and do, matter to people outside of that study's extremely narrow focus.

On that other sentence: a large number of men have rape fantasies as well (48%) I don't see that statement as particularly useful for anything, so I wouldn't be casually dropping it in a thread concerning men. It could cover everything from actual rapists to guys who occasionally dream of being Gal Gadot's sex slave or something, we don't know. It's an interesting factoid but it has no depth at all.

Since I'm acquainted now with the shallow studies that Google throws up, I don't have a lot of confidence in the ability of that research to explain things. Such as why not look at it as two distinct issues, rather than one issue that is divided between positive and negative elements along who knows what criteria. Why not just put “rape fantasies” over here and “submission fantasies” over there and call it settled. Who decided this. Etc. Lots of questions, and that's before considering the male side of it.

The most difficult part of to accept, though, for me at least, is the idea of using imagery to create a situation in which you have no control.
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Old Yesterday, 01:08 AM
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But FWIW, here is this link: It notes that porn searches for violent and/or nonconsensual sex are twice as common among women as men.
But that's a specific expression of a specific kink. Related kinks get expressed in bodice rippers, which aren't exactly considered a manly man's genre.
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  #68  
Old Yesterday, 07:26 AM
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We would be women.
I'm not a woman.

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On that other sentence: a large number of men have rape fantasies as well (48%) I don't see that statement as particularly useful for anything, so I wouldn't be casually dropping it in a thread concerning men. It could cover everything from actual rapists to guys who occasionally dream of being Gal Gadot's sex slave or something, we don't know. It's an interesting factoid but it has no depth at all.
I dropped it because I saw it, and I found it interesting. I briefly wondered if they meant "fantasy of raping" or "fantasy of being raped", but given the context I assumed the former. But indeed it's not specified.


Quote:
Since I'm acquainted now with the shallow studies that Google throws up, I don't have a lot of confidence in the ability of that research to explain things.
Regarding rape fantasies it's not one single study. Its prevalence in women has been well known for a long time. As for explaining it, you'll easily find tons of people, be them scholars, journalists, feminists (or anti feminists, in fact), random bloggers, etc...proposing explanations, but every time I saw one, they seemed intended to support the conclusion that the author liked more or that supported his other thesis. That's the problem with social sciences : we get some raw data, but the interpretation is rarely more than very biased guesses.

Quote:
Such as why not look at it as two distinct issues, rather than one issue that is divided between positive and negative elements along who knows what criteria.
Well, that's one study that did that. The authors of others apparently didn't wonder about this, so in fact it's a progress over not distinguishing both at all. I found it interesting, because even though I knew that some women had these "aversive" fantasies, I assumed they were a small minority, while it would be almost half of them. It's quite strange to be aroused by thinking of feeling terrible (as opposed to thinking of a situation where at least at some point, you're feeling good and/or aroused).

Quote:
Why not just put “rape fantasies” over here and “submission fantasies” over there and call it settled. Who decided this. Etc. Lots of questions, and that's before considering the male side of it.
An "erotic" rape fantasy, as they call them, isn't the same thing at all as a submission fantasy. Plenty of submissive have no interest altogether in rape play or such, and given how widespread rape fantasies are, a lot of women who aren't the slightest bit submissive must have them. And once again, I guess even asking the question ("aversive" vs "erotic") didn't even cross anybody mind previously, so establishing that they both exist is the step before deciding whether they should be studied separately or not. In any case, I guess there won't be any answer anytime soon, since I doubt many people are interested in studying something as specific as "aversive rape fantasies".


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The most difficult part of to accept, though, for me at least, is the idea of using imagery to create a situation in which you have no control.
Do you mean mental imagery? If so, personally I don't see how it's difficult to accept. Even if what you fantasize about is having no control, in fact, you're entirely in control of what you're imagining so it's more like "I'm not in control (which is arousing in itself) but everything that happens is exactly what I would want to happen and super hot". What I have difficulties with is the idea of imagining something like "I'm not in control and everything that happens is terrible and I hate every second of it", and still finding this arousing.
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  #69  
Old Yesterday, 07:49 AM
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There's a technique that can help turn anxiety into excitement*. That's because anxiety and excitement both have similar physiological characteristics. The same physiological signs can be associated with different thoughts and interpreted in different ways which leads to different emotions. They can also blend together because neurons that fire together wire together.

Having read the thread and keeping in mind that BDSM is a common genre of kinks and, it seems that much of the sexual arousal comes from some kind of threat (including threat to social status) that increases activity in the sympathetic nervous system (which handles fight or flight).

It wouldn't be surprising if many of the physiological signs of excitement, anxiety and sexual arousal had significant overlap. They can also all enable a sense of hyperfocus, of losing oneself and being in what's called a state of flow or automatic action.

That state of mind may have some psychologically addictive or at least very attractive effect on the mind, whatever its specific content. It can lead people to do great art or to engage in BASE jumping.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9tBnXz2B1Q

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  #70  
Old Today, 04:04 PM
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If it isn't something your family, friends, or social circle would find objectionable in at least a small way, why have a fantasy about it? You could just do it, right?
I would argue that people do fantasize about things that would not lead to social ostracism. They may even fantasize about things they could do- but not at the moment. For example, a teen boy may fantasize about kisssing a girl in his Spanish class. But he doesn't know how to approach her, or if she would consent. So he fantasizes and likely passes her best friend a note in study hall. A man may fantasize about sex with his wife- but first he has to finish up the quarterly report and then drive home.

Qadgop Thank you for correcting your pronouns.

Back To The OP

I too must dispute the premise that women are not as kinky as men. IMO Part of the reason is that men feel safer sharing their kinks. A woman who says 'I want to be tied up and spanked' will be subjected to almost any man who hears or finds out what she said volunteering to tie her up and spank her. The obvious answer to this problem is for her to keep silent.

One Last Thing-

You can pay to HALO jump?
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