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  #101  
Old 08-21-2016, 11:43 AM
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No, that's the whole point—Different materials can reflect light in different ways, photograph in different ways, and appear on film or video in different ways, even if they are exactly the same color. That's precisely what Theiss was saying. See the blog post —

As William Shatner ever mentioned what colour he thought his shirts were?


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  #102  
Old 08-21-2016, 11:48 AM
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I watched "Return to Tomorrow" last night, season 2, episode 20. Kirk's shirt, his normal command tunic, was definitely a greenish-gold, and not yellow. It was a remastered episode.
  #103  
Old 08-21-2016, 11:53 AM
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Fascinating. Avocado green gold.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...6f0a0190fa.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...49e3ceddd8.jpg

https://www.anovos.com/blogs/news/14...n-kirk-s-tunic


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  #104  
Old 08-21-2016, 02:36 PM
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I've always wondered what the hell those artifacts Scotty has framed on his wall are. Some kind of Industrial-age machine or measuring tools, maybe? They're not pointed, so I doubt they're weapons (or even parts of weapons).
Well, one of them is an abstract string art... very popular back in the day, I used to make them out of kits myself. Very 60's/early 70's.

But the ones above it... yeah, looks sort of like measuring or drawing tools, but could be abstract art intended to suggest such a thing. The upper one is sort of T-square, the bottom... something for curves?

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  #105  
Old 08-21-2016, 05:55 PM
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Well, one of them is an abstract string art... very popular back in the day, I used to make them out of kits myself. Very 60's/early 70's.
Huh! Never even noticed the string art; my eyes were always drawn to the tool-thingies.

In re color, this might be of interest to some:

http://www.startrek.com/article/tos-...ok-coming-soon

Look at how green Kirk's tunic is in that photo, and how gold Chekov's is! (Assuming, of course, we all perceive them the same way. I find the difference is even greater when viewed on a smaller scale: go to http://www.startrek.com/article/reve...the-enterprise and scroll to bottom.)
  #106  
Old 08-21-2016, 06:04 PM
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As William Shatner ever mentioned what colour he thought his shirts were?
In one of his early books, David Gerrold says they were green, but due to a technical "freakout," they appeared gold on TV.
  #107  
Old 08-22-2016, 08:55 AM
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Inspired by this thread, I did some Googling and came across this page, from a man whose company produces replica TOS costumes. They actually had to make a gold tunic that was not color-accurate to what William Shatner wore on set, because buyers complained it didn't look like what they saw on TV.
He seems a bit irritated by this attitude, but I think it's a profoundly true point. What is Star Trek? Is it what existed on the set at Desilu, or is it what existed on the TV sets of the nation when it was broadcast, and has been shown and watched in reruns ever since? I would argue that it's the latter. And as everyone admits, on screen, Kirk's tunic appeared gold.

So to my mind, the "correct" color of Kirk's uniform is gold, because that's what appeared on screen. The fact that it was green on set is an interesting bit of trivia, but nothing more. If you want to cosplay as TOS-era Kirk, you wear a gold tunic.
  #108  
Old 08-22-2016, 09:31 AM
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Well, given how it looks on Netflix now, the next generation of Star Trek cosplayers—should there be one—might no longer have the same reference point. So who knows.

On another point, why do we call it "gold" in the first place? The insignia badge is gold; the lace on the cuffs is gold. But the shirt is yellow, not gold.
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  #109  
Old 08-22-2016, 09:55 AM
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I'm going to have to watch a few episodes on Netflix, just to see how Kirk's tunic looks. If it appears as more green, I have a feeling it's going to look awfully weird to me...
  #110  
Old 08-22-2016, 10:20 AM
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I'm going to have to watch a few episodes on Netflix, just to see how Kirk's tunic looks. If it appears as more green, I have a feeling it's going to look awfully weird to me...


Speaking for myself, it does look weird.
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  #111  
Old 08-22-2016, 11:19 AM
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I hadn't noticed, but then...

1) I saw TOS in black and white originally and for about two decades of re-runs, and
2) I am, in fact, colorblind, or at least "colorweak" regarding green. In fact, the wrap-around tunic everyone else is calling green is more of a greeny-yellow to me, and
3) that bottle of "green" stuff that Scotty was pouring out for that alien actually looks more like a greenish-blue to me than a discreet green.

But then, I do not see the world as most others see it. Still love these discussions about color perception, though.
  #112  
Old 08-22-2016, 11:36 AM
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Looks like in Trials and Tribbil-ations they went with almost a harvest gold.

Sisco and Kirk.
  #113  
Old 08-22-2016, 03:35 PM
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I'm going to have to watch a few episodes on Netflix, just to see how Kirk's tunic looks. If it appears as more green, I have a feeling it's going to look awfully weird to me...

It's kind of like finding that all your life your dad had an affair that he didn't tell anyone about and you actually have a half brother six months older than you.


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  #114  
Old 08-22-2016, 03:42 PM
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I hadn't noticed, but then...



1) I saw TOS in black and white originally and for about two decades of re-runs, and

2) I am, in fact, colorblind, or at least "colorweak" regarding green. In fact, the wrap-around tunic everyone else is calling green is more of a greeny-yellow to me, and

3) that bottle of "green" stuff that Scotty was pouring out for that alien actually looks more like a greenish-blue to me than a discreet green.



But then, I do not see the world as most others see it. Still love these discussions about color perception, though.

Might it have something to do with red-yellow-blue being the primary colours in real life, but a television reproduces all the colours in the spectrum using red-green-blue diodes (RGB)?

For example, take a look at this jersey Belushi was wearing on NBC in '75/76. I see a kind of halfway point between green and yellow. Like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle; sometimes it looks green, and sometimes it looks yellow, depending on how you look at it.


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  #115  
Old 08-22-2016, 03:43 PM
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Might it have something to do with red-yellow-blue being the primary colours in real life, but a television reproduces all the colours in the spectrum using red-green-blue diodes (RGB)?

For example, take a look at this jersey Belushi was wearing on NBC in '75/76. I see a kind of halfway point between green and yellow. Like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle; sometimes it looks green, and sometimes it looks yellow, depending on how you look at it.


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Sorry, forget the link!

https://vimeo.com/61215628


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  #116  
Old 08-22-2016, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
I hadn't noticed, but then...

1) I saw TOS in black and white originally and for about two decades of re-runs, and
2) I am, in fact, colorblind, or at least "colorweak" regarding green. In fact, the wrap-around tunic everyone else is calling green is more of a greeny-yellow to me, and
3) that bottle of "green" stuff that Scotty was pouring out for that alien actually looks more like a greenish-blue to me than a discreet green.

But then, I do not see the world as most others see it. Still love these discussions about color perception, though.
I'd love to see you do some kind of color test, where it saves the results. Your colorblindness sounds more like it's shifting colors than the typical inability to distinguish some colors.

It might be fun to see if we could use your answers to colorshift something. We could see what you see, and you could see what we see.

And to relate this back to Star Trek: like Geordi's VISOR.

Last edited by BigT; 08-22-2016 at 06:46 PM.
  #117  
Old 08-22-2016, 07:52 PM
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In cases like this, would color-scanning hardware give an objective answer?

(In the thread on the refurbished original Star Trek Enterprise spaceship, there was a recent addition giving exact scanned color values.)

Or...would a scanner suffer from the same problems our eyes are, and two different scans of the same object would give two different results? Is "objectivity" actually possible in extreme cases of color perception?
  #118  
Old 08-22-2016, 07:53 PM
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I'd love to see you do some kind of color test, where it saves the results. Your colorblindness sounds more like it's shifting colors than the typical inability to distinguish some colors.
Specifically, it's deuteranomalous trichromacy, which basically means that while I see green it's not the same green color-normals see. It can, indeed, be described as color shifting.

It's actually the most common form of "colorblindness" but since it interferes very little with daily life it is also frequently missed as a diagnosis. I was not diagnosed until my late 30's, somehow it wasn't noticed even when I studying for an art degree. Not that deuteranomalous trichromat artists are unknown - Marvel comics artist John Byrne also has the same form of color perception which did not interfere with his work as an artist. When most people hear the term "colorblindness" they think of something like deuteranopia, which is the inability to see green. (Protanopia is the inability to see red, tritanopia the inability to see blue, and achromatopsia is the inability to perceive color at all and such people experience sight as a grey scale). Deuteranomalous, Protananomalous, and trinanomalous conditions allow perception of, respectively, green, red, and blue light but it's not the same perception as those with normal color vision.

For that matter, I did a brief stint doing background color work for comic books. My speciality? Foliage like trees and bushes - you know, things that are green - and camouflage patterns, which are into the green/brown range that can give me trouble. Had no complaints and nobody, including myself, seem to realize I was "colorblind". Then again, people with red/green variant vision were used to spot camouflaged installations by militaries in the early half of the 20th Century (it's designed to fool normal vision, not abnormal), and may have advantages spotting things in green foliage. I was known for consistency in my camouflage pattern shapes from frame to frame, something color normals might find harder to achieve. The more impaired one's color vision the more one relies on things like shapes and borders to make sense of what one sees.

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It might be fun to see if we could use your answers to colorshift something. We could see what you see, and you could see what we see.
We actually did something like that in an old thread around here somewhere. There was also a discussion of whether or not people such as my self with anomalous color perception would want to receive a treatment to normalize our vision. The verdict on that was mixed, with some being enthused about it and others feeling they're so used to seeing the world as they see it that acquiring normal vision might be disturbing or difficult/impossible to adjust to.

The one color shift I can probably most easily describe for you color normals involves "FAA green". To me it is sky blue. This caused some confusion for me very early in flight training, and it was my FAA physical where my color perception anomaly was first diagnosed. I was required to undergo additional testing to make sure it would not be a safety issue (it wasn't) and after that I agreed to refer to that blue color of light as "green" when engaged in aviation activities.
  #119  
Old 08-22-2016, 08:40 PM
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The scene in "Relics" is actually an homage to this scene from the TOS episode "By Any Other Name".
There's a scene in the first of the very passable Vanguard series of novels in which Scotty buys that bottle. He asks the smuggler from whom he buys it "What is it?" and is also told "It's green."
  #120  
Old 08-22-2016, 10:49 PM
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There's a scene in the first of the very passable Vanguard series of novels in which Scotty buys that bottle. He asks the smuggler from whom he buys it "What is it?" and is also told "It's green."
Yeah, that kind of thing is one of the things I always hated about Star Trek novels. It ruins the original joke.
  #121  
Old 08-22-2016, 10:52 PM
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Might it have something to do with red-yellow-blue being the primary colours in real life, but a television reproduces all the colours in the spectrum using red-green-blue diodes (RGB)?
I'm not sure that this has much to do with it.


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It's kind of like finding that all your life your dad had an affair that he didn't tell anyone about and you actually have a half brother six months older than you.
I like that analogy.

Last edited by Acsenray; 08-22-2016 at 10:53 PM.
  #122  
Old 08-23-2016, 01:02 PM
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Specifically, it's deuteranomalous trichromacy, which basically means that while I see green it's not the same green color-normals see. It can, indeed, be described as color shifting.

It's actually the most common form of "colorblindness"...
I've created a new thread to talk more about colorblindness — http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=802377

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  #123  
Old 08-26-2016, 02:36 PM
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you color normals
We prefer the term cisvisioned. Thank you.
  #124  
Old 10-14-2019, 12:03 PM
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I have been researching the Original Star Trek Uniforms (costumes) since 1980.
There were two different version of them. First they were made of Velour for the 1st & 2nd seasons, which WERE "Yellow/Gold" and then in the 3rd season they changed to a Double Knit fabric and the color of those was Avocado Green.
The Wrap, which was also green was a Wool Double knit and that is why it appeared to be the green it actually was.
The "They were Only Green" information is Not correct.
I am new here and haven't figured out how to post a picture, but I have a picture of a 1st Season Screen used Tunic I can post that shows the true color of the Velour Tunics, I also have fabric samples from the show of the 3rd Season fabric
  #125  
Old 10-14-2019, 12:36 PM
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You can’t post pictures directly to this board. You can upload to a photo sharing service and then link from here.

However given the quotes from William Ware Theiss above I would think that your proof would have to be extraordinary.

The restored versions of Star Trek shown on Netflix now clearly show green throughout.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 10-14-2019 at 12:37 PM.
  #126  
Old 10-14-2019, 12:59 PM
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The one color shift I can probably most easily describe for you color normals involves "FAA green". To me it is sky blue. This caused some confusion for me very early in flight training, and it was my FAA physical where my color perception anomaly was first diagnosed. I was required to undergo additional testing to make sure it would not be a safety issue (it wasn't) and after that I agreed to refer to that blue color of light as "green" when engaged in aviation activities.
This is interesting. For as long as I can remember, I've always thought the "green" used in American stoplights was far more on the blue side. Any time I had to color them in school, I'd make them blue; Crayola "green" just never seemed right to me.

After many years of conditioning, I now recognize the color as a shade of green, but it still seems blue-green to me.
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  #127  
Old 10-14-2019, 02:17 PM
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When I was a kid, the hair on Cesar Romero's Joker looked yellow to me (and I knew from comic books that it was supposed to be green). Now looking at photos, I can see the green, but it's more of a light green or lime greenómaybe the same color Kirk's shirt is supposed to be??
To me in some scenes Romero's hair actually looks red. I always figured that was due to the studio lighting.
  #128  
Old 10-14-2019, 03:00 PM
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I also see the green traffic light as more blue than green and very light greens as yellow. I am green weak, the most common form of color disability.

I also the the red light as yellowish. I often can’t tell the color differences between tail lights and braking lights in the back of a car very clearly.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 10-14-2019 at 03:01 PM.
  #129  
Old 10-14-2019, 05:07 PM
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I also the the red light as yellowish. I often canít tell the color differences between tail lights and braking lights in the back of a car very clearly.
In most cars, there is no color difference between tail lights and brake lights. Brake lights are just brighter.
  #130  
Old 10-14-2019, 05:25 PM
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This is interesting. For as long as I can remember, I've always thought the "green" used in American stoplights was far more on the blue side. Any time I had to color them in school, I'd make them blue; Crayola "green" just never seemed right to me.

After many years of conditioning, I now recognize the color as a shade of green, but it still seems blue-green to me.
Oh definitely. Closest I can describe it is a sort of forest/pine green; maybe teal? BTW: there's a formal standard, in RGB hexidecimal format it's #33a532 For some reason I find it a peculiarly attractive and comforting shade; maybe pure conditioning from not having to stop?
  #131  
Old 10-14-2019, 05:34 PM
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I have been researching the Original Star Trek Uniforms (costumes) since 1980.
There were two different version of them. First they were made of Velour for the 1st & 2nd seasons, which WERE "Yellow/Gold" and then in the 3rd season they changed to a Double Knit fabric and the color of those was Avocado Green.
The Wrap, which was also green was a Wool Double knit and that is why it appeared to be the green it actually was.
The "They were Only Green" information is Not correct.
I am new here and haven't figured out how to post a picture, but I have a picture of a 1st Season Screen used Tunic I can post that shows the true color of the Velour Tunics, I also have fabric samples from the show of the 3rd Season fabric
But the question is, were they supposed to be gold? Even in the early seasons, Kirk's dress tunic (whatever it was made from, it wasn't velour!) is clearly some shade of green, and not some shade of yellow/gold.

I suspect that they intended the command uniforms to be gold, but due to the weaknesses of 1965-era color TV, "pure" yellow-gold would have washed out, so they started throwing green in there until they got something that passed for gold on the screen.

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I also the the red light as yellowish. I often canít tell the color differences between tail lights and braking lights in the back of a car very clearly.
It's fine, just as long as you understand THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!
  #132  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:53 PM
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But the question is, were they supposed to be gold? Even in the early seasons, Kirk's dress tunic (whatever it was made from, it wasn't velour!) is clearly some shade of green, and not some shade of yellow/gold.



THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!



I see what you did there.


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Old 10-15-2019, 01:11 PM
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This is interesting. For as long as I can remember, I've always thought the "green" used in American stoplights was far more on the blue side. Any time I had to color them in school, I'd make them blue; Crayola "green" just never seemed right to me.

After many years of conditioning, I now recognize the color as a shade of green, but it still seems blue-green to me.
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I also see the green traffic light as more blue than green and very light greens as yellow. I am green weak, the most common form of color disability.
You may take comfort in the Japanese language using aoi (from ao generally translated as 'blue') for the traffic signals. The word midori, apparently, refers to the color of green melons. Many languages in fact have quite different ways to set the boundary between blue and green.

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To me in some scenes Romero's hair actually looks red. I always figured that was due to the studio lighting.
I thought I remembered it as light pink (or was it green? something was green there), but I could be wrong. I only got to see a color TV on visits to my grandparents' house while the original run of Batman was on, and that was on Sundays, when rerun views of Batman were infrequent. The only thing I really remember about Romero as Joker was that mustache slathered over in clown white. A uniquely awesomeful look. IMHO every portrayal of the Joker since then has had the motivation to be the anti-Romero.
  #134  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:16 PM
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The only thing I really remember about Romero as Joker was that mustache slathered over in clown white. A uniquely awesomeful look. IMHO every portrayal of the Joker since then has had the motivation to be the anti-Romero.
I love Romero's justification of this: "hey, the guy's supposed to crazy, right?"
  #135  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:29 PM
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This is interesting. For as long as I can remember, I've always thought the "green" used in American stoplights was far more on the blue side. Any time I had to color them in school, I'd make them blue; Crayola "green" just never seemed right to me.

After many years of conditioning, I now recognize the color as a shade of green, but it still seems blue-green to me.
Oh, definitely. The green light in many/most stop lights is really more like between blue and green. And the yellow is between yellow and orange (amber.) And the red is perhaps between red and orange (though that one I don't notice as much.)

But there is some variation in stoplights depending on the type they are.
  #136  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:32 PM
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Might it have something to do with red-yellow-blue being the primary colours in real life, but a television reproduces all the colours in the spectrum using red-green-blue diodes (RGB)?
Old nitpick, but...

There are two sets of primary colors - additive, and subtractive. Subtractive primary colors are red/yellow/blue - or cyan, magenta, and yellow in printing - and describes the behavior of pigments. The more subtractive pigments you add, the closer you get to black. Additive primary colors are red, green, and blue, and describes the behavior of light. The more additive colors you mix together, the closer you get to white. Neither of these are the "real" primary colors.
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