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  #501  
Old 03-21-2019, 01:17 PM
glee is offline
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Apparently Theresa May is Professor X and can read the minds of millions...


Thanks to GreenWyvern for this astonishing* message from the TUC and the CBI:

'Together we represent millions of workers and tens of thousands of businesses. It is on their behalf that we are writing to you to ask you to change your Brexit approach.
Our country is facing a national emergency. Decisions of recent days have caused the risk of no deal to soar. Firms and communities across the UK are not ready for this outcome. The shock to our economy would be felt by generations to come.
We ask you to take three steps to protect the jobs, rights and livelihoods of ordinary working people.
First, avoiding no deal is paramount. Businesses and employees alike need to see their government clearly acknowledge the reckless damage no deal would cause and recommit itself to avoiding this outcome.
Second, securing an extension has become essential. 88% of CBI members and a majority in parliament agree this is better than no deal. But at the same time an extension must genuinely allow a way forwards, and be long enough for a deal to be agreed.
Third, ‘the current deal or no deal’ must not be the only choice. A Plan B must be found - one that protects workers, the economy and an open Irish border, commands a parliamentary majority, and is negotiable with the EU. A new approach is needed to secure this – whether through indicative votes or another mechanism for compromise.
We cannot overstate the gravity of this crisis for firms and working people. We request an urgent meeting with you to discuss our concerns and hear your response.'

*these two organisations virtually always disagree - shows how bad the current situation is.

In addition more than one million people signed an online petition urging the government to cancel Brexit, with support rocketing in the wake of Theresa May’s statement on Wednesday.

No doubt May will simply reiterate that she "knows what people voted for and what they want."
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
  #502  
Old 03-21-2019, 01:43 PM
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I would certainly be a Remainer if I were British, but an online petition is a great example of a self-selective survey. I saw a hexagonal heat map type of overlay as to where the petition signers came from, and basically it was the same parts of the country that majority voted to Remain.

Even if they literally got more "signatures" than they had Leave votes in the 2016 referendum, there would be questions as to the bot nature of some subset of them.

What would really rock the boat would be some legitimate, verifiable indication that a significant number of people who voted to Leave would prefer to Remain over a No Deal Brexit.
  #503  
Old 03-21-2019, 02:44 PM
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Brexit metaphors are like shooting fish in a barrel, but I found this one quite funny.

https://twitter.com/WelshDalaiLama/s...833233409?s=19

Do you want a blowjob?
Yes.
It's from a piranha.
Then no.
Can't change your mind now. Blowjob means blowjob.

This is where we are with Brexit now. About to dunk our cocks into the razor-toothed mouth of peril.

Brexit is a blowjob from a piranha.
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  #504  
Old 03-21-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Brexit metaphors are like shooting fish in a barrel, but I found this one quite funny.

https://twitter.com/WelshDalaiLama/s...833233409?s=19

Do you want a blowjob?
Yes.
It's from a piranha.
Then no.
Can't change your mind now. Blowjob means blowjob.

This is where we are with Brexit now. About to dunk our cocks into the razor-toothed mouth of peril.

Brexit is a blowjob from a piranha.
Or "the food is inedible and the portions are too small"
  #505  
Old 03-21-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by glee View Post
*these two organisations virtually always disagree - shows how bad the current situation is.
Frances O'Grady of the TUC and Carolyn Fairbairn of the CBI are doing the media rounds together, describing the looming No Deal as a national emergency. The two organisations aren't always antagonistic to each other's positions, but to express a joint viewpoint as forcefully as they are currently doing is surely unprecedented. What strange times we live in.

Whether May takes a blind bit of notice is another matter, of course.

Last edited by Baron Greenback; 03-21-2019 at 03:49 PM.
  #506  
Old 03-21-2019, 04:09 PM
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Still M.A.Y (featuring Snoop Mogg): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9uj2GY1MHQ
  #507  
Old 03-21-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Brexit metaphors are like shooting fish in a barrel, but I found this one quite funny.

https://twitter.com/WelshDalaiLama/s...833233409?s=19

Do you want a blowjob?
Yes.
It's from a piranha.
Then no.
Can't change your mind now. Blowjob means blowjob.

This is where we are with Brexit now. About to dunk our cocks into the razor-toothed mouth of peril.

Brexit is a blowjob from a piranha.
As I asked before, are any Leave voters actually saying this or is this all the same sore loser talk from Remain voters?
  #508  
Old 03-21-2019, 04:21 PM
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As I asked before, are any Leave voters actually saying this or is this all the same sore loser talk from Remain voters?
Who cares? Brexit, especially a no deal Brexit, is a terrible idea, and doesn't stop being terrible if some - or even most - people disagree. People who want Brexit stopped are no more sore losers than those who want Trump impeached and removed.
  #509  
Old 03-21-2019, 04:40 PM
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Does anyone else want Terry Jones to play Bercow? John Cleese could do an alright Jacob Rees-Mogg. If Eric Idle put on a bit of weight, he could play Boris Johnson. Chapman would have done a good Corbyn. I suppose Palin would get to dress up as May.
  #510  
Old 03-21-2019, 04:51 PM
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You guys may be more "traditional enemies" with Evil Albion than we are, but you're certainly being more polite than the opinions I heard in Spain when it was mentioned that the UK could rescind Article 50 and go on just like before. Those were more along the lines of "on their knees and into the Eurozone!"

Well, If I'm being honest, my initial and automatic gut reaction was similar, "oh so NOW you want to stay ? How precious ! OK, no problem, but first you have to say pretty please and how about we just strike down all those snowflake arrangements you had going, hmm ?". But then the more sober me realizes that this wouldn't help and that even IF we did that and IF the UK agreed for fear of actually Brexiting like plonkers, that would only galvanize the UKIP crew into further asshattery.


I mean I really *want* to do that, but let's not do that
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  #511  
Old 03-21-2019, 04:58 PM
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I suppose Palin would get to dress up as May.
Andy Serkis, actually.
  #512  
Old 03-21-2019, 05:02 PM
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Andy Serkis, actually.
Wow. That's pretty brilliant.
  #513  
Old 03-21-2019, 06:37 PM
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As I asked before, are any Leave voters actually saying this or is this all the same sore loser talk from Remain voters?
Leave voters are, by and large, totally deluded. We've had this conversation before, IIRC. 50% of them believe that Brexit will be good for the economy; only 17% of them believe it will be bad for the economy. Leavers are, by and large, headin' straight for that piranha cock-first convinced that the blowjob is gonna be awesome and that all the experts that warned of sharp teeth are simply part of project fear.

The people saying "blowjob means blowjob" are May and her goons, who have no excuse not to know better.
  #514  
Old 03-21-2019, 06:38 PM
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Latest news on the Leave extension date(s):
Quote:
"The European Council agrees to an extension until 22 May 2019, provided the Withdrawal Agreement is approved by the House of Commons next week.

"If the Withdrawal Agreement is not approved by the House of Commons next week, the European Council agrees to an extension until 12 April 2019 and expects the UK to indicate a way forward before this date for consideration by the European Council."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ments-47614151 Post from 21:51.
  #515  
Old 03-21-2019, 06:55 PM
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Latest news on the Leave extension date(s):


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ments-47614151 Post from 21:51.
For all that I've criticised May and the British negotiators, this shows just what's wrong from the European side. There's no attempt there to provide what was asked for, nor any attempt to deal with what's actually happening in the UK Parliament, just abitrary deadlines that won't actually help matters.

Looks like the EU has gone back to being the entity that, ridiculously, not only refused to negotiate before Article 50 was triggred but refused to even say what might or might not be available. The EU should (just as Parliament and the Government should) be doing everything they can to keep the UK in the EU, not pretending that the European elections are more important.
  #516  
Old 03-21-2019, 07:02 PM
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For all that I've criticised May and the British negotiators, this shows just what's wrong from the European side. There's no attempt there to provide what was asked for, nor any attempt to deal with what's actually happening in the UK Parliament, just abitrary deadlines that won't actually help matters.

Looks like the EU has gone back to being the entity that, ridiculously, not only refused to negotiate before Article 50 was triggred but refused to even say what might or might not be available. The EU should (just as Parliament and the Government should) be doing everything they can to keep the UK in the EU, not pretending that the European elections are more important.
Are you really surprised the EU is defending its polity? At this late stage? This is Britain's fuckup, no-one elses.
  #517  
Old 03-21-2019, 07:13 PM
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Are you really surprised the EU is defending its polity? At this late stage? This is Britain's fuckup, no-one elses.
The EU should be doing whatever it can to keep the UK in the Union, as that's what is best for everyone. They have not done that, and deserve the same criticism as everyone else who's not doing that. They could easily have provided the 3 month extension, but have decided to be petty.

This will stir up Leave sentiment, and has all but guaranteed we will leave the EU, and probably without a deal. It's fucking ridiculous.

But no, I'm not surprised. The politicians who pushed for this (Macron) will be able to blame the resulting problems on the UK, and look good when they next come up for election, claiming they took a tough stance. Never mind that they're harming themselves as well. It's like the fucking idiots in Appalachia who voted for Trump so the brown people would get shat on, despite the harm they will come to themselves. What's the point of something like the EU if it doesn's prevent its members from fucking up?
  #518  
Old 03-21-2019, 07:23 PM
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Steophan, this is about the Uk LEAVING. Why do you think the EU should be preventing that?

Im sure the EU would be delighted if the UK changed its mind, but...it seems that the EU is damned when it does and when it doesn't.


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  #519  
Old 03-21-2019, 07:29 PM
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What's the point of something like the EU if it doesn's prevent its members from fucking up?
"Waaahhh! My union's workplace safety committee provided protective equipment and guidelines for safety procedures so as not to chop off my finger when using the machinery, but they didn't actually prevent me from chopping off my finger in the machinery when I decided to disregard their guidelines! What's the point of even having a workplace safety committee if it doesn't prevent me from fucking up of my own deliberate free will?"
  #520  
Old 03-21-2019, 07:30 PM
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Steophan, this is about the Uk LEAVING. Why do you think the EU should be preventing that?
Because it's in their own best interest to, apart from anything else. Of course, the "anything else" is pretty massive, obviously there's the massive effect it'll have on the UK and the probable damage to the world economy, but even ignoring that it seems absolutely ridiculous to harm your own economy and weaken your own union when there's an option not to.

If they've effectively given up on us, it's understandable in a way, but it's not what politicians who actually want the best for those they represent should be doing. Especially this particular way, which seems to have all but ensured that we'll leave without a deal.
  #521  
Old 03-21-2019, 07:35 PM
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"Waaahhh! My union's workplace safety committee provided protective equipment and guidelines for safety procedures so as not to chop off my finger when using the machinery, but they didn't actually prevent me from chopping off my finger in the machinery when I decided to disregard their guidelines! What's the point of even having a workplace safety committee if it doesn't prevent me from fucking up of my own deliberate free will?"
I'm not sure I personally could have done much more to stop it happening, and if I sound like I'm whinging because a government I didn't vote for is doing something extremely damaging I also didn't vote for, and being helped in it by someone else who's also going to be harmed by it, fuck it. There's worse reasons to whinge.
  #522  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:02 PM
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There's worse reasons to whinge.
No disagreement from me on that.

This whole thing has been so exhausting, and so infuriating. I thought Indyref was going to be the biggest political debate - that I'd actually have a vote in - of my lifetime but no, no it wasn't.
  #523  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:11 PM
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@Steophan. Sorry pal. We can not prevent fired bullet that is going right into your foot at this very moment. But we can prepare for mess afterwards. And believe me, we'd rather not. Your doing it right here in our common living room. We'll try to take care of your wound, but cleaning blood out of a sofa can be pretty much pain in the ass too. And the last thing we need is dead body in the house. That is the reality on this side of the channel. You can still try to nudge your foot slightly and only hope for flesh wound. And that is the best of the worst scenarios we realistically hope for.

Last edited by yo han go; 03-21-2019 at 08:12 PM.
  #524  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:31 PM
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As I asked before, are any Leave voters actually saying this or is this all the same sore loser talk from Remain voters?
There's a fairly well recognised English (and I presume Britain-wide) acceptance that caricarturism of public figures or public positions is fair game. Regardless of sides, there's an appreciation of wit. The referenced joke is mild compared to some historical satirical cartoons. As a cite, I offer the cartoonists' display at the Regent's Palace in Brighton. However, I doubt the referenced joke is regarded as witty by most readers. The cheese submarine joke was much better.

I think the general attitude of Leave voters, and probably many Remain voters, is frustration. I think there's a general public trust that Parliament and the government are able to legislate and govern. Sure there's plenty of snark from hardline Remainers about unicorns and Boris Johnson cakes. But after all the factionalism and sniping, there's an expectation that government and Parliament will put national interests first, and political interests second. It's dismaying that isn't happening.

Just speaking for myself, I respect the Liberal Democrats and the SNP. They've declared their position and their sticking to it. That's fine, especially because they're minor parties. But for the Conservatives and Labour, and especially their leadership, I find myself wanting to shout "DO YOUR BLOODY JOBS!"

Personally, I'm fine with May's plan. My take on it is that the UK will stay in the customs union until a free trade agreement with the EU is negotiated and agreed. I get that people to the right of me would prefer a deadline. But unless they can offer a realistic plan to achieve that deadline, it's stupid to reject a decent Brexit because it's not a perfect Brexit. For the people preferring a softer exit than May's plan, that's fine. May should have built a compromise plan after she failed to secure a mandate in the botched 2017 elections. The current failure of Brexit is almost entirely upon her. But frankly, I don't get what the soft Brexiters want. Apparently, they want to stay permanently in the customs union. Fine. There's a long negotiation ahead for the free trade agreement. Fight your battle then, not now when if you lose, the result is No Deal.

The above two paragraphs are not addressing Tory and Labour Remain MP's. Frankly, my attitude to them is "Shit or get off the pot!" Declare your position and do your utmost to achieve a second referendum. That's fine. If you force the government into a second referendum in the next few days, I'll offer you my congratulations. But either achieve it or move on. Staying in a fixed position and accomplishing a No Deal Brexit that is anathema to you and your parties is utterly idiotic.
  #525  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:33 PM
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For all that I've criticised May and the British negotiators, this shows just what's wrong from the European side. There's no attempt there to provide what was asked for,
What was asked for, exactly?

Quote:
nor any attempt to deal with what's actually happening in the UK Parliament,
What would such an attempt actually look like, in your eyes?

Quote:
just abitrary deadlines that won't actually help matters.
Arbitrary extensions of deadlines the UK put on itself and could rescind at any time. If the UK wants an extension on the "deadline" all it has to do is recall article 50, and then it will have literally all the time in the world to figure out how it wants to leave the EU. (Maybe it can start by figuring out what its goals actually are!) And the EU can't actually stop it from doing that.

Why hasn't Britain done this? At this point, your guess is as good as mine, and my theories are "pathological brain virus", "something to do with EU Tax Haven laws", and "Memberberries", so if you have a working theory by all means, pipe up.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 03-21-2019 at 08:34 PM.
  #526  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:39 PM
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Because it's in their own best interest to, apart from anything else. Of course, the "anything else" is pretty massive, obviously there's the massive effect it'll have on the UK and the probable damage to the world economy, but even ignoring that it seems absolutely ridiculous to harm your own economy and weaken your own union when there's an option not to.

If they've effectively given up on us, it's understandable in a way, but it's not what politicians who actually want the best for those they represent should be doing. Especially this particular way, which seems to have all but ensured that we'll leave without a deal.
It's not that the've given up on you; it's that you have a right to leave, under EU law, and the EU is an institution that takes rights seriously and will not adopt, as an objective, the frustration of the UK's rights.

And this is reinforced by two pragmatic considerations: First, if the EU were to adopt this objective you can imagine the blowback from Leavers about the EU interfering in the exercise by the UK of its rights. Secondly, there's a growing feeling in the EU that British politics has become so toxic and dysfunctional that, harmful and all as Brexit will be to the Union, not Brexiting could be more harmful still. The thinking is that it may be better to have the UK outside the tent pissing itself than to have it inside the tent pissing all over the tent and everyone in it.

So, wrong in principle; unwise in practice.

Last edited by UDS; 03-21-2019 at 08:40 PM.
  #527  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:43 PM
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As I asked before, are any Leave voters actually saying this or is this all the same sore loser talk from Remain voters?
Who cares? It's not as though Leave voters have some elite status that gives them a superior right to determine the destiny of the kingdom. If a majority of voters now think that Brexit is a bad idea and should be stopped, then it should be stopped. It makes no difference at all how much of the majority is composed of people who voted Leave in 2016.
  #528  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:59 PM
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For all that I've criticised May and the British negotiators, this shows just what's wrong from the European side. There's no attempt there to provide what was asked for, nor any attempt to deal with what's actually happening in the UK Parliament, just abitrary deadlines that won't actually help matters.

Looks like the EU has gone back to being the entity that, ridiculously, not only refused to negotiate before Article 50 was triggred but refused to even say what might or might not be available. The EU should (just as Parliament and the Government should) be doing everything they can to keep the UK in the EU, not pretending that the European elections are more important.
I'm far from being an EU fan, but I recognise that as far as Brexit negotiations go, they have zero obligations to look after Britain's interests. Brexit is often described as a divorce. Going with that analogy, the EU's obligation is to look out for the kids. Some part of that means dealing fairly with the one you're divorcing. I actually believe the EU has been fairer towards Britain than I expected.

Not being argumentative, but if you have an example of the EU hurting itself to be spiteful to Britain, I'd like to read it.
  #529  
Old 03-21-2019, 09:01 PM
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Not being argumentative, but if you have an example of the EU hurting itself to be spiteful to Britain, I'd like to read it.
The UK leaving the EU, especially with no deal, will hurt the EU. Not as much as it will hurt the UK, but it will cause significant economic and political damage.
  #530  
Old 03-21-2019, 09:13 PM
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What was asked for, exactly?
A 3 month extension.

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What would such an attempt actually look like, in your eyes?
Providing the needed extension would be a start. Making it clear to the British public what leaving would actually entail, and why they've taken the positions they have.

Quote:
Arbitrary extensions of deadlines the UK put on itself and could rescind at any time. If the UK wants an extension on the "deadline" all it has to do is recall article 50, and then it will have literally all the time in the world to figure out how it wants to leave the EU. (Maybe it can start by figuring out what its goals actually are!) And the EU can't actually stop it from doing that.
We are not allowed to rescind Article 50 just to gain an extended deadline, only to actually remain in the EU for the forseeable future. It's still unknown what would happen if we rescinded it only to trigger it again in the future.

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Why hasn't Britain done this? At this point, your guess is as good as mine, and my theories are "pathological brain virus", "something to do with EU Tax Haven laws", and "Memberberries", so if you have a working theory by all means, pipe up.
Because there is no politial will to rescind it, as the leaders of the two largest parties want to leave. On a more individual level, because people didn't expect May to be quite so incompetent and stubborn, Corbyn to be quite so hopelessly wishy-washy, and the EU to be quite so intransigent and uncommunicative.

Your theories are silly, and symptomatic of how many people, both here and in Europe, don't actually understand the damage that Brexit will do. Germany, for example, will lose a lot of luxury car sales, causing noticable economic harm to some regions. I hope you don't work in one of them.
  #531  
Old 03-21-2019, 09:19 PM
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For all that I've criticised May and the British negotiators, this shows just what's wrong from the European side. There's no attempt there to provide what was asked for, nor any attempt to deal with what's actually happening in the UK Parliament, just abitrary deadlines that won't actually help matters.

Looks like the EU has gone back to being the entity that, ridiculously, not only refused to negotiate before Article 50 was triggred but refused to even say what might or might not be available. The EU should (just as Parliament and the Government should) be doing everything they can to keep the UK in the EU, not pretending that the European elections are more important.
Just had a second thought. If you're basing your statement on the 2015/2016 negotiations between David Cameron and the EU on the sovereignty of EU states, then yes the EU should have conceded more to Cameron, and Cameron should have
declared the UK's sovereignty much more forcefully. But 3 1/2 years on that hardly seems to apply.
  #532  
Old 03-21-2019, 09:36 PM
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The UK leaving the EU, especially with no deal, will hurt the EU. Not as much as it will hurt the UK, but it will cause significant economic and political damage.
I agree with your statement. However, it sounds like you're saying that the EU should compromise its principles to woo Britain into not leaving. While there may have been an argument for that before the Leave/Remain vote, that opportunity has gone.
  #533  
Old 03-21-2019, 10:48 PM
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The EU should be doing whatever it can to keep the UK in the Union, as that's what is best for everyone. They have not done that, and deserve the same criticism as everyone else who's not doing that. They could easily have provided the 3 month extension, but have decided to be petty.

It's not about being petty. Your government invoked Article 50 (aka "You're all cunts, fuck you, hahaha !") two years ago. TWO YEARS. And yet you still haven't moved the debate one iota. You still don't know how, when you're leaving - or why, really. You still don't know what you want. WE still don't know what you want. Why should more extensions be granted AT ALL ? So you can dick about some more ? So the UKIP assholes you have sent to Brussels on your behalf can tell us some more how much we suck ? How many extensions will it take before you get all your ducks in a row ? Or set up at least one duck ?
You should be grateful we have the collective patience to deal with your incompetent shit at all.



We didn't invoke article 50 for you. We didn't force you out. We didn't dictate any thing you should or shouldn't do. And we sure as shit shouldn't bend over backwards for you nor bend the rules for you (again) on account of you're being whiny stupid idiots. That'd set a terrible precedent.



Quote:
What's the point of something like the EU if it doesn's prevent its members from fucking up?
Do... do you want us to take away your sovereignty ? Is that what you just asked ? Because I think we could take over the reins your country, if that's what you guys want. Not sure how that would play out public opinion-wise though. But hey, at this point, sure, why not try that ? It can't be much worse than whatever May's cooking.
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  #534  
Old 03-21-2019, 11:35 PM
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The EU should be doing whatever it can to keep the UK in the Union, as that's what is best for everyone. They have not done that, and deserve the same criticism as everyone else who's not doing that.
Why? This is very much like a divorce; is the wife's job to keep the husband in the marriage when he really really wants out? Even if it would be better financially for everybody to stay married, is that her job, and should she be criticized for not convincing him?

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They could easily have provided the 3 month extension, but have decided to be petty.
One of the problems with a three-month extension has always been the EU parliamentary elections in May. If Britain is still in the EU on 23 May, should the country participate in the elections, or no?

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This will stir up Leave sentiment, and has all but guaranteed we will leave the EU, and probably without a deal. It's fucking ridiculous.
Leave sentiment is basically built on the sentiment that the EU politicians and bureaucrats have too much influence in Britain. Your solution is for the EU politicians and bureaucrats to use their influence on British voters? Exactly how do you see this working?
  #535  
Old 03-21-2019, 11:37 PM
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The UK leaving the EU, especially with no deal, will hurt the EU. Not as much as it will hurt the UK, but it will cause significant economic and political damage.
Yes, but the EU accepting a no-deal wouldn't be the EU accepting damage to itself in order to inflict worse damage on the UK; it would be the EU accepting damage to itself in order to avert worse damage to itself.

The self-regarding paranoia exhibited by certain Brexiters notwithstanding, we really don't care very much what happens to the UK. Sorry to be blunt, but that's how it is. For us, Brexit has all along been managed as a damage-limitation exercise, and the damage we're seeking to limit is the damage to ourselves.
  #536  
Old 03-21-2019, 11:44 PM
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A 3 month extension.
How many extensions should the EU give UK, given the utter stupidity that has issued forth from London to this point?
  #537  
Old 03-22-2019, 12:10 AM
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Providing the needed extension would be a start. Making it clear to the British public what leaving would actually entail, and why they've taken the positions they have.

I'm sorry, now it's also on usto educate your public ? THAT'S YOUR JOB !

For one thing, I'm sure the EU jumping into your mess of a public discourse would play super well with the Leave crowd ; for another thing how exactly are we supposed to teach your public what it should know, exactly ? Again, you're a sovereign nation. We can't even drive a stupid pink bus through your streets. That's just not what the EU does or is about or has a right to do.
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  #538  
Old 03-22-2019, 12:21 AM
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As is so often the case, John Crace's political sketch has more than a little truth in it:

Quote:
Lino [Leader In Name Only] had started the day in reasonably good spirits. For once, she had managed to unite the whole country. The TUC and the CBI had released a joint statement saying she was useless. Both Labour and Tory MPs had been so thoroughly pissed off by her Bob Geldof “Give me your fucking votes” telethon appeal that they were even more likely to reject her deal than they had been before she had opened her mouth.
...

That turned out to be pretty much a rehearsal for her meeting with the 27 EU leaders. A punishment beating for all concerned in which Lino managed to talk for 90 minutes but say almost nothing. Five minutes with May has been enough to have most people screaming for heavy medication. Munch had had it easy. Time and again, Lino was asked what she would do if she failed to get her deal through at the third attempt and each time she stared at the floor. The sound of one brain cell desperately seeking out another. It’s the closest to human contact she gets these days.
...

Her 90 minutes of tough talking to the EU had resulted in an offer considerably less than she had demanded. She has a way with words.
Marina Hyde is usually pretty good too.
  #539  
Old 03-22-2019, 12:28 AM
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And a good serious article from the Guardian:

May's appeal falls flat as EU seizes control of Brexit date

Quote:
[Donald Tusk] said: “What this means in practice is that, until that date, all options will remain open, and the cliff-edge date will be delayed. The UK government will still have a choice of a deal, no-deal, a long extension or revoking article 50.”

Asked how long an extension could be on offer, the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, said: “Until the very end.”

The French president, Emmanuel Macron, told reporters as he left the summit that the EU had acted to protect its interests in response to a “vacuum” in Westminster. “The EU in a very clear manner has today responded to a British political crisis,” he said. “The British politicians are incapable to put in place what their people have demanded. Their people voted for Brexit.”

Earlier on Thursday, May had made an address to leaders described as “90 minutes of nothing”, by sources, during which she failed to persuade the bloc that she had a plan to avoid a no-deal Brexit. May had been asking for an extension to article 50 until 30 June to make time for vital legislation to pass should she manage to get her deal through the Commons next week. But her appeal “dismally” failed to offer any answers as to what she would do if the deal was blocked by MPs again, sources said, provoking EU leaders into taking matters into their own hands and in effect taking control of her future.

“She didn’t even give clarity if she is organising a vote,” said one aide to a leader. “Asked three times what she would do if she lost the vote, she couldn’t say. It was awful. Dreadful. Evasive even by her standards.”

When leaders asked May what she was going to do if her deal was voted down, an official added that the prime minister replied that she was following her plan A of getting it through. It was then that the EU decided that “she didn’t have a plan so they needed to come up with one for her”, the source added.

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 03-22-2019 at 12:29 AM.
  #540  
Old 03-22-2019, 01:46 AM
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I'm sorry, now it's also on usto educate your public ? THAT'S YOUR JOB !

For one thing, I'm sure the EU jumping into your mess of a public discourse would play super well with the Leave crowd ; for another thing how exactly are we supposed to teach your public what it should know, exactly ? Again, you're a sovereign nation. We can't even drive a stupid pink bus through your streets. That's just not what the EU does or is about or has a right to do.
It should always have been on the EU to explain and justify what it does, at the very least from when the referendum was announced, but really for a lot longer than that. Just as it was on the UK to fight to maintain the Union when the Scottish independence referendum happened.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what the EU has to gain from the UK leaving, or from being so uncommunicative. Of course they could drive a stupid bus through the UK, or otherwise advertise here. It's ridiculous that they didn't.
  #541  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:03 AM
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Why? This is very much like a divorce; is the wife's job to keep the husband in the marriage when he really really wants out? Even if it would be better financially for everybody to stay married, is that her job, and should she be criticized for not convincing him?
I don't believe the majority of the country wants a divorce, and those that do for the most part want to leave because of lies spread about the EU that it should be more vocal about correcting. If a man wants a divorce because of false rumours being spread, surely the wife should try to correct that?

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One of the problems with a three-month extension has always been the EU parliamentary elections in May. If Britain is still in the EU on 23 May, should the country participate in the elections, or no?
I honestly don't care. Both the UK and the EU would survive if there were a few months with no British MEPs. This is letting procedures get in the way of finding a solution - one of the things that has always been a legitimate complaint about the EU.



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Leave sentiment is basically built on the sentiment that the EU politicians and bureaucrats have too much influence in Britain. Your solution is for the EU politicians and bureaucrats to use their influence on British voters? Exactly how do you see this working?
It could hardly work worse than what is currently happening. And if the EU explaining what it actually does, how it benefits Britain, and why we should stay in it, actually increases Leave sentiment then fuck it, we deserve to leave. At least the EU would have been transparent and communicative, two things it is not exactly known for.


Look, this extension effectively ensures there will be no deal, which will be harmful for the EU. Literally any other solution would be better, including an extension for a longer period. Uncertainty is better than the certainty of something shit. Just because the UK government is intent on shooting itself, and the country, in the knee regardless of what the country actually wants, doesn't mean the EU has to hand us the gun after shooting itself in the foot.
  #542  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:08 AM
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How many extensions should the EU give UK, given the utter stupidity that has issued forth from London to this point?
Let's start with the one that was requested. Then follow it up with however many are needed to stop the utter stupidity from harming millions of people - the majority of whom are not in the UK nor responsible for said stupidity.

What, exactly, do they expect can be achieved in 8 weeks? May's deal will not pass and the EU will not reopen negotiations, and rightly so. Which means there will need to be a major shift in the UK, presumably either a new government or a referendum, and the time they've given us is not long enough to do that. It would have made more sense not to grant the extension at all, and I don't know what they expect to happen in 8 weeks.
  #543  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:25 AM
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I don't believe the majority of the country wants a divorce, and those that do for the most part want to leave because of lies spread about the EU that it should be more vocal about correcting. If a man wants a divorce because of false rumours being spread, surely the wife should try to correct that?
If the man believes that wife is a lying conniving schemer, what exactly can she do to correct that? Every word that comes out of her mouth will automatically be labeled another lie.

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I honestly don't care. Both the UK and the EU would survive if there were a few months with no British MEPs.
It might not be just a few months. How long can or should the EU allow a sort-of-but-not-quite member to linger on the field? How long can or should Britain remain subject to the rules of an organization in which it has no voting rights?

More significantly, how long should the EU and the remaining member states wait in limbo for the Brits to figure out exactly what it is they want to do?

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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
It could hardly work worse than what is currently happening. And if the EU explaining what it actually does, how it benefits Britain, and why we should stay in it, actually increases Leave sentiment then fuck it, we deserve to leave. At least the EU would have been transparent and communicative, two things it is not exactly known for.
If 45 years of being in the Common Market haven't convinced the Brits of the value of the EU, then why do you think a van driving around the country or a flash advertising campaign is going to change perceptions? Britain didn't get into this mess because of an abundance of rational arguments and intelligent debate, and you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place. The Leavers are convinced that Brussels is made up of lying schemers thwarting British sovereignty; that's a fundamentally irrational position, but a bunch of EU types scheming to change a decision the Brits have made reinforces that narrative.
  #544  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:28 AM
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It should always have been on the EU to explain and justify what it does, at the very least from when the referendum was announced, but really for a lot longer than that. Just as it was on the UK to fight to maintain the Union when the Scottish independence referendum happened.
If it were the EU's responsibility, then it should have done that. However, that is not a responsibility of the EU we actually have. I don't remember any UK politician arguing for EU reform asking for the EU budget to be increased to cover an active education and communication strategy extolling the benefits of the EU. Perhaps if Cameron had argued for that he would have had more to show for his efforts to change the EU?

Criticising the EU for not being consistent with your mistakenly critical vision of the EU makes no sense. I am reminded of the Brexiteers who are outraged that the EU dares to defend Irish interests, on the grounds that (they think) the EU always sabotages its members' interests. Not even wrong.

Anyway, if you really want to know what the EU is for, it explains and justifies what it does at https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en
  #545  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:37 AM
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If it were the EU's responsibility, then it should have done that. However, that is not a responsibility of the EU we actually have. I don't remember any UK politician arguing for EU reform asking for the EU budget to be increased to cover an active education and communication strategy extolling the benefits of the EU. Perhaps if Cameron had argued for that he would have had more to show for his efforts to change the EU?

Criticising the EU for not being consistent with your mistakenly critical vision of the EU makes no sense. I am reminded of the Brexiteers who are outraged that the EU dares to defend Irish interests, on the grounds that (they think) the EU always sabotages its members' interests. Not even wrong.

Anyway, if you really want to know what the EU is for, it explains and justifies what it does at https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en
It's going to end up costing the EU far more if we leave than it would have to do such a campaign. Obviously not as much as it will cost the UK, but that's not the point. I believe that the EU is acting against its own interest by letting the UK leave without a fight to keep it.

Thanks for the link, I actually did a lot of research in the lead up to the referendum and found out what the EU actually does, I was pretty surprised how much there is and how important it is. My point is that I shouldn't have had to go looking for it, the EU should have made sure everyone who didn't actively avoid it knew.

I genuinely think there are now factions in the EU that do want the UK to suffer regardless of the consequences for themselves, and to be honest I can understand that. But it would still be wrong of them to allow it if they could stop it, even if only to prevent the negative consequences to themselves.
  #546  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:51 AM
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What, exactly, do they expect can be achieved in 8 weeks? May's deal will not pass and the EU will not reopen negotiations, and rightly so. Which means there will need to be a major shift in the UK, presumably either a new government or a referendum, and the time they've given us is not long enough to do that. It would have made more sense not to grant the extension at all, and I don't know what they expect to happen in 8 weeks.
The obvious answer would be that the EU expects the UK Parliament to accept reality: there is no consensus in the UK for anything to do with Brexit, there needs to be a general election with the main parties running on reality-based manifestos this time, reality-based discussions with the EU will then take years, any negotiated agreement will need to be confirmed by a referendum otherwise democracy in the UK really would be dead.

Therefore, the UK Parliament has to acknowledge reality, accept the offered long extension, put in place the arrangements to hold a UK general election and UK European elections, and then dissolve itself. (You do realise this is the offer, right?)

The UK doesn't need eight weeks to do that. If it can't do it in eight weeks then lack of time isn't the problem, and the UK crashing out without a deal is in the best interest of the EU member states.
  #547  
Old 03-22-2019, 03:00 AM
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(You do realise this is the offer, right?)
I apologise: this is unacceptably sarcastic. The point remains, though I should have expressed it better. Sorry, Steophan.
  #548  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:17 AM
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The obvious answer would be that the EU expects the UK Parliament to accept reality: there is no consensus in the UK for anything to do with Brexit, there needs to be a general election with the main parties running on reality-based manifestos this time, reality-based discussions with the EU will then take years, any negotiated agreement will need to be confirmed by a referendum otherwise democracy in the UK really would be dead.

Therefore, the UK Parliament has to acknowledge reality, accept the offered long extension, put in place the arrangements to hold a UK general election and UK European elections, and then dissolve itself. (You do realise this is the offer, right?)

The UK doesn't need eight weeks to do that. If it can't do it in eight weeks then lack of time isn't the problem, and the UK crashing out without a deal is in the best interest of the EU member states.
The election process itself takes a minimum of six weeks, plus time to install the new government. Add on to that the time taken to call the election, which requires two votes two weeks apart, and that adds up to more than 8 weeks. It's no longer possible, whereas with the 3 month extension it would have been. And there is as yet no formal offer of a longer extension.

Had the EU insisted on a longer extension, at least until the end of the year, it would be possible to have an election and a referendum, and even 3 months would have allowed one of those. Claiming that elections for the European Parliament make that impossible is just as facile as May's red lines. There are no winners here, and a no deal exit will be in no one's best interest. But if the EU's schadenfreude at us suffering worse than them is what they want, it is ultimately up to them.

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I apologise: this is unacceptably sarcastic. The point remains, though I should have expressed it better. Sorry, Steophan.
Apology accepted, although I don't think it was necessary, and wouldn't have noticed it if you hadn't pointed it out. But thank you anyway.
  #549  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:44 AM
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It should always have been on the EU to explain and justify what it does, at the very least from when the referendum was announced, but really for a lot longer than that. Just as it was on the UK to fight to maintain the Union when the Scottish independence referendum happened.



Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what the EU has to gain from the UK leaving, or from being so uncommunicative. Of course they could drive a stupid bus through the UK, or otherwise advertise here. It's ridiculous that they didn't.
The EU maintains a website that specifically addresses the lies published in the British tabloids. To the best of my knowledge, the UK is the only EU country that needs such a website. No joke, these people are so thick and poisoned they need a special website. It didn't help.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...ths-a-z-index/

Have you seen those big blue signs with the stars? If you drive from the North into Wales, the roads suddenly improve. By a lot. I can't tell you how often I've driven that bit with someone in the car who remarked on that, to whom I'd have to point out we'd just passed one of those signs with the pretty stars. It didn't help.

We had a massive sign like that opposite my university for years as they were building. It was very conveniently placed for pointing out the bindingly obvious to people who wondered what the EU ever did for us. It didn't help.

Romania has those same signs and somehow people there manage to see them and appreciate them. What would you have the EU do, exactly? Duct tape people's faces to the screen to read the debunking website they created specifically for them? Force feed them blue starry signs like we're making EU appreciation foie gras? Start their own stupid tabloid called The Star, tits on page three, THE TRUTH on page four?

A major publicity problem is that the truth about the EU is overwhelmingly boring. Trade is easier if we agree on the safety standards of hoover parts. It doesn't compete with tits-and-lies or with the man who admitted to inventing the genre of ridiculous Euromyths rising to Foreign Secretary.

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  #550  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:29 AM
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And now, in order:

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Originally Posted by Sandwich View Post
I apologise: this is unacceptably sarcastic. The point remains, though I should have expressed it better. Sorry, Steophan.
An englishman, and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gracer View Post
The EU maintains a website that specifically addresses the lies published in the British tabloids. To the best of my knowledge, the UK is the only EU country that needs such a website. No joke, these people are so thick and poisoned they need a special website. It didn't help.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...ths-a-z-index/

Have you seen those big blue signs with the stars? If you drive from the North into Wales, the roads suddenly improve. By a lot. I can't tell you how often I've driven that bit with someone in the car who remarked on that, to whom I'd have to point out we'd just passed one of those signs with the pretty stars. It didn't help.

We had a massive sign like that opposite my university for years as they were building. It was very conveniently placed for pointing out the bindingly obvious to people who wondered what the EU ever did for us. It didn't help.

Romania has those same signs and somehow people there manage to see them and appreciate them. What would you have the EU do, exactly? Duct tape people's faces to the screen to read the debunking website they created specifically for them? Force feed them blue starry signs like we're making EU appreciation foie gras? Start their own stupid tabloid called The Star, tits on page three, THE TRUTH on page four?

A major publicity problem is that the truth about the EU is overwhelmingly boring. Trade is easier if we agree on the safety standards of hoover parts. It doesn't compete with tits-and-lies or with the man who admitted to inventing the genre of ridiculous Euromyths rising to Foreign Secretary.

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...A Scot.
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