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  #101  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:40 AM
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I'm not as familiar with baseball as I am with hockey. The only 4th generation player that I know of would be Blake Geoffrion. He didn't have much of a career and neither did his father. But his grandfather Bernie 'Boom Boom' Geoffrion and his great-grandfather Howie Morenz are both all time legends.
  #102  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:53 AM
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Has there ever been a team with 3 second generation players, like the Jays, before? I guess it could even be 4 if you count Gurriel Jr.
It would have been four had they held on to Dwight Smith Jr., too.

They could still get there, if not this year then next; in the minors, the Jays have Mark Leiter Jr., who would make it four. Leiter actually pitched for the Jays last year but has not yet this year.

The Jays' pedigree is amazing too, of course; Guerrero and Biggio are both sons of Hall of Famers, and Bichette'e father had a pretty solid career.
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  #103  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:46 AM
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Ike Witt:

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Has there ever been a team with 3 second generation players, like the Jays, before? I guess it could even be 4 if you count Gurriel Jr.
The 1990 Royals had 5: Brian McRae (son of Hal), Danny Tartabull (son of Jose), Bob Boone (son of Ray) Kurt Stillwell (son of Ron) and Mel Stottlemyre, Jr. (son of Sr., obviously). While there was a point in the season where all 5 were on the active roster at the same time, no more than 4 of them ever appeared the same game.
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  #104  
Old 09-20-2019, 01:51 PM
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Last night, Albert Pujols went 0 for 4 against the Yankees, leaving him at 3,196 for 10,655 in his career (.299953 BA).

This is the first time he has dipped below .300 for his career since April 6, 2001 (his fourth game in MLB). Pujols has since gone on to play a further 2,810 games - I wonder if any other player has had a longer period of maintaining a .300 career average before eventually dropping out of the .300 club?
  #105  
Old 09-20-2019, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ambihelical Hexnut View Post
Last night, Albert Pujols went 0 for 4 against the Yankees, leaving him at 3,196 for 10,655 in his career (.299953 BA).

This is the first time he has dipped below .300 for his career since April 6, 2001 (his fourth game in MLB). Pujols has since gone on to play a further 2,810 games - I wonder if any other player has had a longer period of maintaining a .300 career average before eventually dropping out of the .300 club?
Look for members of the 3000 club with just below a .300 average.
  #106  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ambihelical Hexnut View Post
Last night, Albert Pujols went 0 for 4 against the Yankees, leaving him at 3,196 for 10,655 in his career (.299953 BA).

This is the first time he has dipped below .300 for his career since April 6, 2001 (his fourth game in MLB). Pujols has since gone on to play a further 2,810 games - I wonder if any other player has had a longer period of maintaining a .300 career average before eventually dropping out of the .300 club?
Albert will be the first player to drop out of the .300 club after recording his 3000th hit. Technically he's still in until he drops below .2995, but that seems inevitable. Maybe Pujols should quit today...another negative WAR season like 2017 could drop him below 100. On the other hand, if he can maintain his pace of the past two seasons he would join the 700 club in doubles and home runs.

Alex Rodriguez came close to dropping in and then out. At the end of the 2012 season he had 2901 hits and a lifetime .300 average. By the time he reached 3000 hits in 2015, his career average had dropped to .299 and he finished a year later at .295.
  #107  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ambihelical Hexnut View Post
Last night, Albert Pujols went 0 for 4 against the Yankees, leaving him at 3,196 for 10,655 in his career (.299953 BA).

This is the first time he has dipped below .300 for his career since April 6, 2001 (his fourth game in MLB). Pujols has since gone on to play a further 2,810 games - I wonder if any other player has had a longer period of maintaining a .300 career average before eventually dropping out of the .300 club?
I've used Baseball Reference to answer my own question (I don't think that B-R's Play Index can handle this kind of query - spent the last couple hours poring over the game logs and cumulative batting tables - I have way too much time on my hands!). Please note that I'm using a strict definition of .300 here (that is, not rounding up figures between .2995 and .2999... )

Pujols' 2,809 consecutive games of averaging .300 for his career before falling below is indeed the MLB record. Only 22 others have even played that many games, so fortunately for me the amount of data to check was just about managable.

Among the 22 potential candidates:

Pete Rose, Hank Aaron, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Stan Musial and Eddie Collins didn't drop below .300 in the twilight of their careers. Mays came close, finishing at .302, and would likely have fallen below .300 had he returned to play a full season in 1974. It looks like he played his last 2,618 games with a career .300 average or better, and so would have needed to maintain his average until well into the 1975 season to have had a longer streak than Pujols.

Reggie Jackson, Carl Yastrzemski, Harold Baines, Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken, Dave Winfield, Omar Vizquel, Rusty Staub, Adrian Beltre, Brooks Robinson, Robin Yount and Craig Biggio never reached a career .300 average at the end of any season.

As for the rest:

Looks like Al Kaline comes the closest; staying above .300 for 2,307 consecutive games between June 2, 1955 and May 29, 1972.

Rafael Palmeiro was sometimes over .300 during the early - mid '90s, but relatively low averages in 1992 and 1997 prevented him from staying there for a long uninterrupted stretch.

Rickey Henderson just barely got over .300 near the end 1981 before falling away, never to return, due to a 3 for 32 slump in April 1982.

Barry Bonds reached .300 late in 2004, spent maybe a few dozen games there during 2004 and his injury-shortened 2005 season (2,742 for 9,140 to this point - exactly .300), and dropped below the mark on opening day in '06.

Last edited by Ambihelical Hexnut; 09-20-2019 at 07:14 PM.
  #108  
Old 09-20-2019, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ambihelical Hexnut View Post
I've used Baseball Reference to answer my own question (I don't think that B-R's Play Index can handle this kind of query - spent the last couple hours poring over the game logs and cumulative batting tables - I have way too much time on my hands!). Please note that I'm using a strict definition of .300 here (that is, not rounding up figures between .2995 and .2999... )

Pujols' 2,809 consecutive games of averaging .300 for his career before falling below is indeed the MLB record. Only 22 others have even played that many games, so fortunately for me the amount of data to check was just about managable.

Among the 22 potential candidates:

Pete Rose, Hank Aaron, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Stan Musial and Eddie Collins didn't drop below .300 in the twilight of their careers. Mays came close, finishing at .302, and would likely have fallen below .300 had he returned to play a full season in 1974. It looks like he played his last 2,618 games with a career .300 average or better, and so would have needed to maintain his average until well into the 1975 season to have had a longer streak than Pujols.

Reggie Jackson, Carl Yastrzemski, Harold Baines, Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken, Dave Winfield, Omar Vizquel, Rusty Staub, Adrian Beltre, Brooks Robinson, Robin Yount and Craig Biggio never reached a career .300 average at the end of any season.

As for the rest:

Looks like Al Kaline comes the closest; staying above .300 for 2,307 consecutive games between June 2, 1955 and May 29, 1972.

Rafael Palmeiro was sometimes over .300 during the early - mid '90s, but relatively low averages in 1992 and 1997 prevented him from staying there for a long uninterrupted stretch.

Rickey Henderson just barely got over .300 near the end 1981 before falling away, never to return, due to a 3 for 32 slump in April 1982.

Barry Bonds reached .300 late in 2004, spent maybe a few dozen games there during 2004 and his injury-shortened 2005 season (2,742 for 9,140 to this point - exactly .300), and dropped below the mark on opening day in '06.
Damn interesting, and great work!
  #109  
Old 09-20-2019, 09:27 PM
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Mickey Mantle played 18 seasons, but only 2,401 games. His lifetime BA was .298, and he only hit .235 his final year. If he'd retired in 1967, he would have ended up at .301, and still have hit more than 500 home runs.

Last edited by Kent Clark; 09-20-2019 at 09:28 PM.
  #110  
Old 09-21-2019, 01:38 PM
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Nice call, Joe West!

Jesus! Does it get much worse than that, in the ninth inning of a one-run game?
  #111  
Old 09-21-2019, 03:24 PM
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If they win today, the Astros will clinch the division with 102 wins - that made me wonder what the largest number of wins a team has had when they clinched their division. First team I thought of was the 1993 Braves, who of course won their division on the final day with 104 wins. Then I remembered that the 2001 Mariners had won their division ahead of a 100-win A's team, and so I dug around on baseball reference and it turns out they had 106 wins when they clinched their division on September 19, 2001. Then I started checking the other high-win teams: The 1906 Cubs clinched with their 105th win; the 1998 Yankees with their 102nd; the 1954 Indians clinched with their 107th win (the Yankees won 103 that year); the 27 Yankees with their 97th win; the 1909 pirates with 106 wins; the 86 Mets and last year's Red Sox were not particularly close; and that pretty much covers it for teams with at least 107 wins overall. So it looks like the 1954 Indians own this fairly odd record.
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Old 09-21-2019, 05:54 PM
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Another bat broken over the knee


I am enjoying the Cardinals and Cubbies series immensely.

And Jason Heyward breaks his bat over his knee.

Gawd that has gotta hurt. I can't help but think it will hurt tomorrow also.
  #113  
Old 09-22-2019, 12:34 AM
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I am enjoying the Cardinals and Cubbies series immensely.
Seconded. Three impressive wins by the Cards in Wrigley. And the Brewers are still hotter than hell.
  #114  
Old 09-22-2019, 05:42 PM
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FOUR 1-run wins by the Cards in Wrigley. Cards are in the playoffs. Cubs are barely alive.
  #115  
Old 09-22-2019, 07:32 PM
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And the Brewers are still hotter than hell.
A few weeks ago, the Brewers were struggling to stay in the playoff picture, and when Yelich broke his kneecap, I figured they were done. In his absence, they've clearly been able to turn it up when it counted.
  #116  
Old 09-22-2019, 07:44 PM
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on the MSN sports section, they have " Astros win NL West again "" the link doesn't go anywhere lol


gee wonder why.. lol
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Old 09-22-2019, 07:56 PM
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wow the al standings are weird this year there's like 2 teams in each division with a winning record (and even 2nd place is like 5 or more back from first) and everyone else is 10 or more games back


just because I feel for the poor orioles among others ....whats the lowest wins by a team in a season with the current 165 game schedule?

I mean Detroit only won 46..... I can't see any less than 30 wins because you'll get lucky and you will play other teams that suck as bad as you ......
  #118  
Old 09-22-2019, 08:07 PM
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Current season is 162 games. As far as I know the 1962 Mets losing 120 is the record. But the 1916 Philadelphia Athletics 36 117 record in 153 games is a lowest percentage winning since 1900. The Cleveland Spiders went 20-134 for a .130 winning percentage.
  #119  
Old 09-22-2019, 08:12 PM
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Current season is 162 games. As far as I know the 1962 Mets losing 120 is the record. But the 1916 Philadelphia Athletics 36 117 record in 153 games is a lowest percentage winning since 1900. The Cleveland Spiders went 20-134 for a .130 winning percentage.
In the "modern era" (i.e., 1900 and on), the record for fewest wins is 36, by that Philadelphia team in 1916 (and again in 1919).

In the 162-game schedule era, the '62 Mets, at 40 wins, is the low, followed by the 2003 Tigers (43-119), and last year's Orioles (47-115).

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...season_records
  #120  
Old 09-22-2019, 09:02 PM
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wow . the tigers have last years orioles beat so far as this is the last week of the season.........
  #121  
Old 09-22-2019, 09:03 PM
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on the MSN sports section, they have " Astros win NL West again "" the link doesn't go anywhere lol


gee wonder why.. lol
OK, I'm stumped. Why?
  #122  
Old 09-22-2019, 09:05 PM
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OK, I'm stumped. Why?
I'm guessing because the Astros moved to the American League in 2013.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:49 PM
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I'm guessing because the Astros moved to the American League in 2013.
Ha ha. Talk about overthinking something. I was trying to figure out what weird bias MSN had against the Astros. Although if they went back to the NL, that would be great too.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:54 PM
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well considering the dodgers have had a lock on said division since the middle of April .......

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Ha ha. Talk about overthinking something. I was trying to figure out what weird bias MSN had against the Astros. Although if they went back to the NL, that would be great too.
that would be good since both teams are doing well ....a bit of rivalry would have spiced up the season but it would have ended up with the same results .

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  #125  
Old 09-22-2019, 10:21 PM
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Ha ha. Talk about overthinking something. I was trying to figure out what weird bias MSN had against the Astros. Although if they went back to the NL, that would be great too.
As an Astros fan I still think they got screwed over when that happened. It should have been the Brewers who moved back to the AL since they had the history of having been in the AL.
  #126  
Old 09-23-2019, 10:21 AM
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I'm guessing because the Astros moved to the American League in 2013.
Not to mention that when there WERE in the NL, they were in the Central Division, not the West. The Astros have never been a part of the NL West.
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  #127  
Old 09-23-2019, 11:06 AM
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Not to mention that when there WERE in the NL, they were in the Central Division, not the West. The Astros have never been a part of the NL West.
Sure they were. They were part of the NL West from 1969 (when the NL West was created) to 1993 (the year before the NL Central was created).
  #128  
Old 09-23-2019, 11:51 AM
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As an Astros fan I still think they got screwed over when that happened. It should have been the Brewers who moved back to the AL since they had the history of having been in the AL.
The idea, FWIW, was to get "natural' geographic rivals in the same division. The Selig-owned Brewers went to the same division as the Cubs to try to get more viewership and visiting-fan tickets than they were getting with either the White Sox or the Twins. Still don't know why KC isn't in the NL with StL and Colo, though.
  #129  
Old 09-23-2019, 04:53 PM
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Sure they were. They were part of the NL West from 1969 (when the NL West was created) to 1993 (the year before the NL Central was created).
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  #130  
Old 09-23-2019, 05:01 PM
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Still don't know why KC isn't in the NL with StL and Colo, though.
The Royals were given first choice to move to the NL, but declined. Kansas City was never an NL city. Really, Selig wanted to move the Brewers, since Milwaukee had an NL history and the Cubs would be a big draw in Milwaukee (more so than the White Sox had been). But he offered the chance to the Royals first so as not to appear to have been abusing his position as Commissioner to help the team he owned.
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  #131  
Old 09-23-2019, 05:52 PM
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ElvisL1ves:The Royals were given first choice to move to the NL, but declined. Kansas City was never an NL city. Really, Selig wanted to move the Brewers, since Milwaukee had an NL history and the Cubs would be a big draw in Milwaukee (more so than the White Sox had been). But he offered the chance to the Royals first so as not to appear to have been abusing his position as Commissioner to help the team he owned.
Often times the answer to “why didn’t they do this” really is just “because they didn’t want to”.
  #132  
Old 09-24-2019, 09:31 AM
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Well, Ned Yost announced yesterday that he'll retired at the end of the season. I'll be sorry to see him go. I wasn't a huge fan of his to begin with, but a World Series Championship certainly helps to turn things around. He was one of the few managers I can remember to really change the way he thought about things - he's been very flexible to the role of the reliever, the shift, etc. He's become more and more a manager who lets younger players get more reps in the majors, and could be a tremendous asset to the new core that's coming up through the system.

And it's looking more and more like Mike Matheny is going to be the next manager. Which sucks - his last year in St. Louis was a disaster, and it seems players really dislike him.
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Old 09-24-2019, 11:31 AM
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... and Bichette'e father had a pretty solid career.
Care to guess Dante Bichette's career WAR? In 14 years, with four all star selections, four times receiving MVP votes (once a runner up), he amassed a career WAR of 5.7. Playing in Colorado helped him immensely, but not being able to DH just killed his defensive WAR. In '95, his MVP runner up season, he hit .340, 40HRs, 130 OPS+ and his WAR was 1.2. Unbelievable.
  #134  
Old 09-24-2019, 12:06 PM
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Rumor has it that Joe Maddon is on his way out of Wrigley Field, and that David Ross will take over.
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  #135  
Old 09-24-2019, 12:24 PM
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Care to guess Dante Bichette's career WAR? In 14 years, with four all star selections, four times receiving MVP votes (once a runner up), he amassed a career WAR of 5.7. Playing in Colorado helped him immensely, but not being able to DH just killed his defensive WAR. In '95, his MVP runner up season, he hit .340, 40HRs, 130 OPS+ and his WAR was 1.2. Unbelievable.
I knew his WAR was surprisingly low. I do not happen to believe it; I think he was a measurably better player than WAR says he was. For one thing, the restrospective analysis on his defense is most of the reason his WAR is so low - according to the stats sites, in 1999 Bichette was FORTY RUNS BELOW REPLACEMENT as an outfielder. I simply don't believe that. Dante made a lot of errors that year but he can't have been that bad. There is an odd illusion in Coors Field that makes outfielders look bad in the advanced metrics; according to BBRef, Larry Walker wasn't a very good outfielder and that is insane. He was a terrific outfielder. The list of Colorado outfielders that BBRef and Fangraphs say sucked - in many cases they were good with other teams, started sucking in Colorado, and magically learned to play outfield again once they left - is very long. In the last 25 years, most of the worst defensive WAR seasons by outfielders have been Colorado Rockies. That can't be true; it is just nuts to think the Rockies have, for 26 years, been putting a dozen or more guys out there who were worse outfielders than Greg Luzinski or Dave Kingman, but if you accept defensive WAR at face value that is literally what it says. Even in years the Rockies had playoff teams, BBRef and Fangraphs say their outfield defense is catastrophically bad.

Having said that, having a positive WAR at all over a career of 1704 games is nothing to sneeze at.
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Last edited by RickJay; 09-24-2019 at 12:27 PM.
  #136  
Old 09-24-2019, 12:24 PM
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Nice call, Joe West!

Jesus! Does it get much worse than that, in the ninth inning of a one-run game?
Bring on the robots. That he's so damnably arrogant, and incompetent, makes it an especially bitter pill to swallow.
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:36 PM
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West is also far too old to be an MLB ump. It's ridiculous to have a fat senior citizen out there; they should force retirement at 55-60.

There is no good reason not to have strikes and balls called by the machine that's ALREADY DOING IT ANYWAY. None.
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Old 09-24-2019, 02:38 PM
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It is tragic that West doesn't see it.

He should step down. Maybe the ump retirement pension isn't that good?
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:00 PM
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It is tragic that West doesn't see it.
The "tragic" part is second-guessing which doesn't take into account camera angle and where the ball crossed the plate (not where it hit the catcher's mitt).

Looked like a reasonable strike call to me.
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:30 PM
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The "tragic" part is second-guessing which doesn't take into account camera angle and where the ball crossed the plate (not where it hit the catcher's mitt).

Looked like a reasonable strike call to me.
Assuming you actually care, and aren't just being contrary for the sake of it, the overhead camera showed it missing the plate by at least 4 inches.
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:32 PM
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West is also far too old to be an MLB ump. It's ridiculous to have a fat senior citizen out there; they should force retirement at 55-60.

There is no good reason not to have strikes and balls called by the machine that's ALREADY DOING IT ANYWAY. None.
Agree with your second paragraph here, but the suggestion in the first paragraph would, as I understand it, run afoul of the law. You'd have the EEOC on your back if you tried to force retirement by age like this.
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:47 PM
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Well, Ned Yost announced yesterday that he'll retired at the end of the season. I'll be sorry to see him go. I wasn't a huge fan of his to begin with, but a World Series Championship certainly helps to turn things around. He was one of the few managers I can remember to really change the way he thought about things - he's been very flexible to the role of the reliever, the shift, etc. He's become more and more a manager who lets younger players get more reps in the majors, and could be a tremendous asset to the new core that's coming up through the system.

And it's looking more and more like Mike Matheny is going to be the next manager. Which sucks - his last year in St. Louis was a disaster, and it seems players really dislike him.
I've been a Royals fan since their inception, and they've had their share of bad managers. While I never thought that Yost was a great manager, I don't think he's as bad as what his many critics say. (Although KC will lose 100 games this year for the second year in a row.) As Munch says, winning back-to-back pennants and a world series certainly helps the resume. Moving Wade Davis from a starter to the bullpen was the singlemost important move Yost did during his tenure in KC, IMO.
  #143  
Old 09-25-2019, 06:49 AM
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The Washington Nationals clinch a wild-card playoff spot. Not bad, considering they started the season 19-31. And their bullpen is still pretty shaky.
  #144  
Old 09-25-2019, 07:05 AM
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Rumor has it that Joe Maddon is on his way out of Wrigley Field, and that David Ross will take over.
This would be a mistake, in my opinion. The Cubs have be whacked by injuries all season long, plus the Zobrist and Russell distractions. Now, I do question the way Maddon handled the Zobrist situation, but a utility guy wasn’t the reason they’re not going to make the playoffs.
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  #145  
Old 09-25-2019, 07:12 AM
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Agree with your second paragraph here, but the suggestion in the first paragraph would, as I understand it, run afoul of the law. You'd have the EEOC on your back if you tried to force retirement by age like this.

Aviation gets away with it.
Heck, it used to be 60, instead of 65 years old. IIRC, firefighters have a mandatory retirement age too. Both are professions where it was deemed that older people couldn't do the job adequately, or had an unacceptable risk of sudden failure or illness. Unlike baseball, obviously, both are professions where sudden incapacity can mean that other people die.

Agreed that trying to shove one into the Umpires' current CBA would go poorly, but nothing says MLB can't push for one in the next CBA with the umps.

Last edited by Gray Ghost; 09-25-2019 at 07:12 AM.
  #146  
Old 09-25-2019, 07:43 AM
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West is also far too old to be an MLB ump. It's ridiculous to have a fat senior citizen out there; they should force retirement at 55-60.
Sorry, but I abhor blind, blanket rules because people are individuals. There are people in their seventies who are sharp and energetic and shouldn't be put out to pasture to die because of some mandatory, rigid rule. Instead, how about judging ALL umpires regardless of age on their performance? If he's not performing well, don't get rid of him because he is X amount of years old. Get rid of him because of poor performance.
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Last edited by Jasmine; 09-25-2019 at 07:44 AM.
  #147  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:05 AM
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Sorry, but I abhor blind, blanket rules because people are individuals. There are people in their seventies who are sharp and energetic and shouldn't be put out to pasture to die because of some mandatory, rigid rule. Instead, how about judging ALL umpires regardless of age on their performance? If he's not performing well, don't get rid of him because he is X amount of years old. Get rid of him because of poor performance.
I don't understand the rationale behind an age limit for umpires. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that what you need to be a decent umpire are good eyesight (at least with corrective lenses), good judgment, the stamina to stand around and pay attention for several hours, and a thorough knowledge of and experience with the rules of baseball. The eyesight and stamina are the only ones that decline with age, and they can be tested.

I hope this wasn't a case of "Joe West is a bad umpire; Joe West is old; therefore old people are bad umpires." ISTM that's how discrimination and stereotypes work.

(On the other hand, why do umpires have to be men? I've never seen any female umpires, but why not?)


In unrelated news, I'm sure glad I didn't try to stay up for the end of the Cardinals-Diamondbacks game. (St. Louis lost in the 19th inning.)
  #148  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:06 AM
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It turns out that like athletes, umpires don't age very well. Generally speaking. There's more to it than just eyesight.

I was watching a game recently and Doug Eddings was the home plate umpire. One of the announcers mentioned that Eddings calls 10% more strikes than the average ump. And that was hand-waved away as him being a 'pitcher friendly' umpire, instead of being crap at his job. All personnel decisions for umpires should be performance based. If Eddings can't tighten that shit up, adios. I saw another game this year with Chad Fairchild behind the plate and he was brilliant. I marvelled at his accuracy. If they were all like him I would be against robo umps, but as it stands, shitty umps are promoted and not fired.

As for Joe West, that call against Brett Gardner was most likely personal. He knew damn well it wasn't a strike. That's how terrible West is at his job.
  #149  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:51 AM
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It turns out that like athletes, umpires don't age very well. Generally speaking. There's more to it than just eyesight.
Interesting. Thanks for the link.

I think that article was just talking about calling balls and strikes, and not the other decisions umpires have to make, but I couldn't tell for sure.

And unless I missed it, the article didn't say, or even speculate, why older umpires are worse. Or even whether it's causation or just correlation.
  #150  
Old 09-25-2019, 01:44 PM
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The most logical explanation would be that they're worse for the same reason older ballplayers are worse; their eyes, minds and reflexes are not up to the task.
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