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Old 06-27-2018, 07:17 AM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Can there ever be a stop in the retribution cycle?

Right now we have democrats saying its ok to harass people who work for the Trump administration such as going to their homes, refusing to serve them at restaurants, etc...

In a few years a democrat will most likely take over and republicans and their supporters will do the same. All part of "they did it first" campaign.

Can this ever be stopped?
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:23 AM
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There's nothing new here; Biden sad booted from a bakery years ago and Paul Ryan celebrated it, even campaigning with the baker: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny-n...626-story.html

And there's nothing new in some Republicans in office and in the media pretending that some supposed injustice or misdeed is new and unique when in fact it's been part of the Republican playbook for years.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:46 AM
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Right now we have democrats saying its ok to harass people who work for the Trump administration such as going to their homes, refusing to serve them at restaurants, etc...
As I posted elsewhere, Republicans are doing a lot worse.

Democrats are confronting specific people in power for their human-rights-violating policies. Republicans are yelling racist shit at innocent people.

Clean your own house, ferchrissakes.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 06-27-2018 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:55 AM
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As I posted elsewhere, Republicans are doing a lot worse.

Democrats are confronting specific people in power for their human-rights-violating policies. Republicans are yelling racist shit at innocent people.

Clean your own house, ferchrissakes.
Precisely. The question is based on the false premise that Democrats have engaged in any sort of meaningful "retribution" -- they've barely scratched the surface of self-defense.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
There's nothing new here; Biden sad booted from a bakery years ago and Paul Ryan celebrated it, even campaigning with the baker: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny-n...626-story.html

And there's nothing new in some Republicans in office and in the media pretending that some supposed injustice or misdeed is new and unique when in fact it's been part of the Republican playbook for years.
That's not a very good example since it was a request to use the shop for campaign purposes. This wasn't Biden just walking in by himself wanting to buy a donut. From your cite:

Quote:
Chris McMurray and his wife Kelly had only been in a business a few months when Biden's advance team walked into their Radford bakery, Crumb and Get It, hoping the veep could stop in for some cookies and a photo opportunity while they were campaigning in the area, but McMurray turned down the offer.
Emphasis added.

As for the OP, I think the big difference now is the ubiquity of social media and how any little thing can be blown up out of proportion. You can bet that businesses, especially small ones, have been mixing politics and business for a very long time. But now you're much likely to hear about it even if it happens 3,000 miles from where you live.

It's not going to stop.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:48 AM
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As I posted elsewhere, Republicans are doing a lot worse.
Add in protesting at abortion doctor's homes not to mention the endless antics of the Westboro Baptist Church such as picketing funerals.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:12 AM
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And don’t forget the POTUS twitter feed. Which his supporters defend by saying “ the President has said many times that if someone attacks him, he hits back 10 times as hard.”

You know what? So do I. I know Trump was living in a bubble where his family and employees had been instructed to “let him win”. But those days are over.

It’s like all the outrage over Samantha Bee using the c-word to describe Ivanka. I might have been more inclined to condemn her if I hadn’t seen about a thousand memes, photos and T-shirts using that word to describe Hillary Clinton. If those guys are going to dish it out, they better learn to take it. Good and hard.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 06-27-2018 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:22 AM
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Trevor Noah addressed this question last night on his show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qljfObaUG2s
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:24 AM
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... It’s like all the outrage over Samantha Bee using the c-word to describe Ivanka. I might have been more inclined to condemn her if I hadn’t seen about a thousand memes, photos and T-shirts using that word to describe Hillary Clinton. If those guys are going to dish it out, they better learn to take it. Good and hard.
Did Ivanka ever "dish it out" by calling Clinton / anyone a "cunt"?
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:28 AM
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Eye for an eye makes everyone go blind.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:29 AM
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Did Ivanka ever "dish it out" by calling Clinton / anyone a "cunt"?
Did Clinton ever dish it out by calling anyone a cunt?

You should think again about the post you just read. Your question is a non sequitur.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Right now we have democrats saying its ok to harass people who work for the Trump administration such as going to their homes, refusing to serve them at restaurants, etc...

In a few years a democrat will most likely take over and republicans and their supporters will do the same. All part of "they did it first" campaign.

Can this ever be stopped?
Republicans have been doing this for a long time. Go to an abortion clinic if you don't believe me.

Can it be stopped? Probably not. Both sides think the other is evil and an existential threat at this point, so no.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:36 AM
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Eye for an eye makes everyone go blind.
This saying is not the best one to use when your boss is taking an icepick to the eyes of America.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Did Ivanka ever "dish it out" by calling Clinton / anyone a "cunt"?
I don’t recall her ever condemning her father or anyone in her fathers administration for their nasty treatment of Hillary Clinton. Who never called anyone a cunt, at least not publically.

And I just refused service to that asshat Wilbur Ross. Not for political reasons, if that were the case I would’ve done it a long time ago. I cut him off for non-payment, the guy apparently subscribes to the Trump philosophy of not paying vendors. I’ve gotta admit it felt good, though.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 06-27-2018 at 09:38 AM.
  #15  
Old 06-27-2018, 09:47 AM
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Did Clinton ever dish it out by calling anyone a cunt? ...
"As far as I know" she has not, but I'm not the one trying to justify the use of that label, for Ivanka or Clinton or anyone. Ann is, or at least appears to be.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:53 AM
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Any evidence of you criticizing anyone for calling Clinton a cunt then? I'm sure you must have been all over that, what with how much the term offends your sensibilities. A tweet perhaps, or a post on this message board about it? Anything? Seems to me like your outrage is very very selective. I remember seeing photos of Trump supporters wearing "Fuck Your Feelings" tshirts and much worse at rallies. What changed? Do feelings now matter all of a sudden, or only the feelings on your side?
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Right now we have democrats saying its ok to harass people who work for the Trump administration such as going to their homes, refusing to serve them at restaurants, etc...

In a few years a democrat will most likely take over and republicans and their supporters will do the same. All part of "they did it first" campaign.

Can this ever be stopped?
Yes. I think it will stop. It won't happen without someone who is so outside the realm of normal human (let alone political) behavior.

I am actually hopeful that once Trump is gone, the nation will be so relieved that we can increase our tolerance of people who have different political views. I know for me personally, I am much more tolerant of Romney/Bush/McCain types of politicians than I was before. I'm not fan of Rand Paul, for example, but he's not a psychopath. I can listen to him without physical revulsion. You really have to sink to the level of Trump, Arpaio or Roy Moore (or those that support them) to bring out the type of behavior the OP is complaining about. I guess I'm feeling hopeful today, but I think this descent into Trumpland we've been in will be cleansing in the long run.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:07 AM
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"As far as I know" she has not, but I'm not the one trying to justify the use of that label, for Ivanka or Clinton or anyone. Ann is, or at least appears to be.
No, you are making a "what's good for the goose" implication. That calling Ivanka names is off limits if she hasn't used that language.

In order to make that implication, you would have to show that Clinton was fair game by the same rules, otherwise, your attempt at a hypocrisy gotcha utterly fails, unless it is the conservatives that you are trying to paint that way, in which case, it does stick, but I really don't think that was what you are trying to go for here.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:09 AM
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Can this ever be stopped?
Sadly the practice is as old as the hills. It even got satirised in 2000AD decades ago, with corporations substituting for political parties.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:13 AM
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Can this ever be stopped?
One thing that might help is if the Rednecks (present company excepted ) could finally grasp that: No, the two sides are not equally to blame.

Here's a short anecdote that might illustrate what rational thinkers are up against: I had an on-line conversation with a right-winger and brought up Trump University as demonstration that Trump was a criminal fraudster. He seemed very uninterested—knew absolutely nothing about this fraud by his beloved— but finally asked for a synopsis. I spent some time to comply, with links to evidence of fraud. He, barely, acknowledged that Trump U. might not be up to Harvard standards but it didn't matter anyway: everyone already knew that Trump was a liar and a fraud. Instead he continued to rant about Hillary's crimes.

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Did Ivanka ever "dish it out" by calling Clinton / anyone a "cunt"?
Oh! Hi there again, Hurricane.
It sounds like your latest gem of wisdom translates to "Your side does it too" is obviated (when against the right) unless an exact match is found. Citing "grab their pussy" would have no effect here — to continue the "debate" it has to be the C-word specifically. Citing several GOP politicians who did call Hillary the C-word (even though Bee is just a comic), would also have no relevance: it has to be Ivanka specifically who said it.

Got it. (I guess? )
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:22 AM
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"As far as I know" she has not, but I'm not the one trying to justify the use of that label, for Ivanka or Clinton or anyone. Ann is, or at least appears to be.
I cannot speak for Ann but I'd say the discourse was coarsened long ago by Trump supporters and, indeed, Trump himself. It strikes me that complaining about liberals doing it is disingenuous.

How is it you are ok with the pussy grabber-in-chief who has made lewd comments about his own daughter and then get your jimmies in a rustle when someone calls Ivanka a cunt?

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 06-27-2018 at 10:23 AM.
  #22  
Old 06-27-2018, 10:22 AM
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"As far as I know" she has not, but I'm not the one trying to justify the use of that label, for Ivanka or Clinton or anyone. Ann is, or at least appears to be.
Please link to your show of outrage at Trump’s treatment of Hillary Clinton.

Then read this, this guy writes better than I do but he reflects my sentiments exactly.

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2018/06/26...want-civility/

And I actually don’t agree with people that refuse service to Trump Administration members on principle. And I say this as one of the few people ( if not the only one ) on this board that has actually been faced with that decision IRL.

And this one’s for you, specially

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=389

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 06-27-2018 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck
Can this ever be stopped?
I'm guessing No.

Because both sides say 'I will do it one more time, and then we both have to stop'.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:34 AM
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I'm guessing No.

Because both sides say 'I will do it one more time, and then we both have to stop'.

Regards,
Shodan
Actually, no one here is saying that.
Nice try-No kewpie doll.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:35 AM
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Sorry but the party of "Fuck Your Feelings", "Life's a Bitch, Don't Vote for One", "Trump that Bitch", "Trump vs. Tramp", 'I wish Hillary had married OJ", "She's a Cunt, Vote for Trump", "Hillary couldn't satisfy her husband, can't satisfy us" don't get to lecture anyone about civility or throw out both sides bullshit. These crocodile tears are wholly unpersuasive. If you can't take it, stop dishing it out.

(Those are all tshirts worn by Trump supporters at his campaign rallies, and they were all proud to be photographed wearing them).

https://www.thecut.com/2016/10/the-m...p-rallies.html
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Last edited by Airbeck; 06-27-2018 at 10:36 AM.
  #26  
Old 06-27-2018, 10:49 AM
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I'm guessing No.

Because both sides say 'I will do it one more time, and then we both have to stop'.

Regards,
Shodan
It is more that there are 300+ million people in this country, and until trump becomes a dictator, there really is no one to tell them what they can and cannot say.

So, if all the democrats agree to never again say anything bad about a republican, then all it takes is one college student somewhere who didn't get the memo, and that is justification for all out war.

And to be fair, I don't know that the democrats will hold to a cease fire together. The first time that someone speaks out publicly about what a bigot they are, it is going to be hard for all democrats to stay silent.

There have always been disagreements and arguments, even rather inflammatory invective. The difference that I see is that, rather than having differing goals and having to work together to accomplish our mutual goals and compromise on ones that are different, that one of the primary goals of the conservative party is in fact to cause harm to others, and that is something that democrats are not wanting to compromise on.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:55 AM
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Democrats are confronting specific people in power for their human-rights-violating policies. Republicans are yelling racist shit at innocent people.
Bingo. Dems are punching up, Republicans are punching down.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:24 AM
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You just need a nice big war that gets everyone to rally round the flag, with conscription and a few million dead.

Once it's over, people will slowly drift back to partisan bickering but then you just have another war.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:32 AM
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I think the only way to stop the cycle of retaliation is to mandate that businesses that serve the public can't discriminate on the basis of political belief. I think it's already illegal to discriminate on religious beliefs. A restaurant can't put a NO MUSLIMS sign outside their door, but they can put NO REPUBLICANS. But if religious beliefs are a protected category, why not political beliefs?

Last edited by Blalron; 06-27-2018 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:39 AM
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The right wing used armed resistance to prevent Cliven Bundy from grazing his cattle on public land and one of their members proposed using women as human shields. They also occupied federal land in Oregon and blew up a federal building in Oklahoma City. Anne Coulter and other conservative talking heads regularly call Democrats traitors. The left has ruined the dinners of two people. I don't really think the retribution cycle is as evenly distributed as the ill-informed viewers of Fox News would believe.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:51 AM
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This is like asking: "How can we stop athletes from protesting police violence without preventing police violence?"
A reaction to something bad that happened can be prevented by stopping the bad thing.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:52 AM
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*The right wing used armed resistance to prevent federal agents from stopping Cliven Bundy from grazing his cattle on public land
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:12 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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The right wing used armed resistance to prevent Cliven Bundy from grazing his cattle on public land and one of their members proposed using women as human shields. They also occupied federal land in Oregon and blew up a federal building in Oklahoma City. Anne Coulter and other conservative talking heads regularly call Democrats traitors. The left has ruined the dinners of two people. I don't really think the retribution cycle is as evenly distributed as the ill-informed viewers of Fox News would believe.
The left did more than ruin Steve Scalise's dinner.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:15 PM
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The problem with "drawing the line" is that there are multiple lines to be drawn. One is between civil and uncivil discourse. Another is between what's acceptable for you, me, Samantha Bee and various T-shirt wearing idiots and what's unacceptable for candidates for and holders of elective office. A third is between mere speech and tacit or overt exhortations to violence. One thing, however is clear: However many lines you draw and where you draw them, Donald trump has been on the wrong side of ALL of them.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:17 PM
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The left did more than ruin Steve Scalise's dinner.
"The left"?

Yeah, there was an individual guy that did something stupid and reprehensible, and has been thoroughly condemned by those on the left for his actions.

I did not see the same sort of condemnation, in fact, quite the opposite, over armed thugs threatening federal agents, appropriating government land and property, and completely ignoring the law.

False equivalence, once again.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:23 PM
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"The left"? ...
Yeah, that's apparently the game we're playing now: make broad sweeping pronouncements and slander an entire half of the political spectrum based on the actions of a few nutjobs. Did you notice the post I was responding to? It starts out "The right wing ...".
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:33 PM
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I think the only way to stop the cycle of retaliation is to mandate that businesses that serve the public can't discriminate on the basis of political belief. I think it's already illegal to discriminate on religious beliefs. A restaurant can't put a NO MUSLIMS sign outside their door, but they can put NO REPUBLICANS. But if religious beliefs are a protected category, why not political beliefs?
All you need to do is get Congress to amend the Civil Rights Act or the Constitution. Until then, the answer is: it's not against the law and it's not against the Constitution.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:33 PM
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Yeah, that's apparently the game we're playing now: make broad sweeping pronouncements and slander an entire half of the political spectrum based on the actions of a few nutjobs. Did you notice the post I was responding to? It starts out "The right wing ...".
Are you claiming that there was as much support on the left for the shooter's actions as there was on the right for the bundy's actions?

He also mentioned Anne Coulter. Are you denying that she is on the right, or are you disavowing her words? Are you trying to claim that she is not well regarded on the right? are you trying to claim an equivalent amount of support for anne coulter calling her political opponents traitors (and demons) as on the left for Scalise's shooter?

When we talk about the right, we are talking about people with strong media followings and elected representatives (including the president). When you talk about the left, you are talking about individuals who have little power or influence over even their own lives, much less influence over others.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:35 PM
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Yeah, that's apparently the game we're playing now: make broad sweeping pronouncements and slander an entire half of the political spectrum based on the actions of a few nutjobs. Did you notice the post I was responding to? It starts out "The right wing ...".
Dude, this entire thread is about various rank-and-file Americans who subscribe to one political ideology treating the other side like crap. You are off on some half-cocked argument about "My side ain't so bad; but if it is, it is your fault." You know, the sort of thing you'd expect to hear from the party of personal responsibility.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:40 PM
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Are you claiming that there was as much support on the left for the shooter's actions as there was on the right for the bundy's actions?

He also mentioned Anne Coulter. Are you denying that she is on the right, or are you disavowing her words? Are you trying to claim that she is not well regarded on the right? are you trying to claim an equivalent amount of support for anne coulter calling her political opponents traitors (and demons) as on the left for Scalise's shooter?

When we talk about the right, we are talking about people with strong media followings and elected representatives (including the president). When you talk about the left, you are talking about individuals who have little power or influence over even their own lives, much less influence over others.
You're comparing apples to oranges. No one with "strong media followings" and no "elected representatives" blew up the OKC federal building or pointed guns at federal agents or took over a federal building. The left too, has it's share of nut jobs that do things like try to assassinate Republicans or cops.

A step down from manifestly-violent acts are rough discourse, and here again, there are people on both the right and the left that engage in calling the other side "traitors" and "cunts" and other harsh things. Some of those are popular TV personalities with strong followings and some are nobodies on the internet.

There are also examples, again on both the right and the left, of elected representatives saying pretty stupid things. Have you heard what's been dribbling out of Maxine Waters' mouth lately?
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:42 PM
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Dude, this entire thread is about various rank-and-file Americans who subscribe to one political ideology treating the other side like crap. You are off on some half-cocked argument about "My side ain't so bad; but if it is, it is your fault." You know, the sort of thing you'd expect to hear from the party of personal responsibility.
I'm "off on" highlighting the absurdity of madmonk28 blaming "the right wing" collectively for the actions of a handful of extremists.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:55 PM
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Eye for an eye makes everyone go blind.
No it doesn't.

But seriously, no, there will never be an end to the retribution cycle because people are too weak to end it. An overwhelming number of people feel like they are "owed" the opportunity to strike back, that revenge is a good thing, and that punishment is a meaningful deterrent of future bad behavior. As a society, people lack the strength of character to put their own egos aside and just let shit go.

Tapping into that natural tendency in order to maintain social chaos is a different thing altogether. That's just politics.
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Y'all are just too damned serious. Lighten up.
  #43  
Old 06-27-2018, 12:55 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
You're comparing apples to oranges. No one with "strong media followings" and no "elected representatives" blew up the OKC federal building or pointed guns at federal agents or took over a federal building. The left too, has it's share of nut jobs that do things like try to assassinate Republicans or cops.
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Did you miss the part where Fox news and Hannity was lauding the efforts of the Bundy's to ward off agents of the federal government?
A step down from manifestly-violent acts are rough discourse, and here again, there are people on both the right and the left that engage in calling the other side "traitors" and "cunts" and other harsh things. Some of those are popular TV personalities with strong followings and some are nobodies on the internet.
I will agree that discourse is rougher than would be best in a civil society, but I entirely disagree that there is anything on the left that compares to limbaugh or hannity or coulter in sheer hatred. Did you condemn limbaugh when he went after clinton? and by clinton, I mean Chelsea, when she was a kid, and not connected to the administration in any way other than being their kid?

You are quick to call out a comedian for talking about an employee of the administration, are you as quick to go after your side when they go after children?
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There are also examples, again on both the right and the left, of elected representatives saying pretty stupid things. Have you heard what's been dribbling out of Maxine Waters' mouth lately?
Even your vernacular, "dribbling out" shows contempt and hatred. And yes, I have, I heard her say that when administration officials are in public, you should make a scene.

I don't really agree with that, but it is not the same as the claim that trump has made that she is advocating violence. That is a lie. She is asking people to exercise their first amendment rights, that is all. Do you support trump's lies in reaction to her calling for protest against his policies?

She is a single congressperson. I don't agree with the actions that she is advocating, but the actions that she is advocating are far less heinous than many right wing congressmen have called for. What she is calling for is actually legal and a constitutional right.

Finally, there is not an equivalence of actions. The trump admin is causing real harm to real people, and calling that out is not an equivalent action. Even protesting against admin officials in public is not the same as taking people's kids away in a fashion in which, many will never be reunited with their families.

So, yeah, unless you feel that having your dinner ruined is worse than having your children kidnapped, and held without any knowledge as to what will come to them, then no, both sides are not the same, and attempts to paint it that way are simply the failure of a party that tries to justify causing harm to others for the simple sake of causing harm to others.
  #44  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:00 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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No, I don't see it stopping in the foreseeable future. Something awful will happen, most likely bloodshed, people will forget, it will start up again, something awful will happen, etc.
  #45  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:14 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... the actions that she is advocating are far less heinous than many right wing congressmen have called for. What she is calling for is actually legal and a constitutional right. ...
I genuinely have no idea what you're referring to here. What are these heinous / illegal / unconstitutional things "many right wing congressmen have called for"?
  #46  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:36 PM
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Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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The right wing never stops congratulating itself on the fantasy of hanging government officials from lampposts if they overstep their authority.

I guess being asked to leave a restaurant is pretty much the same thing.
  #47  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:39 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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This is a classic Prisoner's Dilemma. It's like nuclear disarmament: The only way you get disarmament is if both do so, preferably simultaneously. Yet, each side fears being the one to lay down arms while the other side doesn't (and thereby retains an arms advantage.) So neither side can or will.

Nobody wants to be the "civil" side and take potshots while letting the other side do the potshotting.
  #48  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:42 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
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Nobody wants to be the "civil" side and take potshots while letting the other side do the potshotting.
Potshooting?
  #49  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:44 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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I genuinely have no idea what you're referring to here. What are these heinous / illegal / unconstitutional things "many right wing congressmen have called for"?
Given your inability to notice that I did not say anything about illegal or unconstitutional in my post, I can see why you would have such difficulties with what really is a pretty simple issue.

Heinous, yes, unconstitutional, maybe, illegal, well no, they are congress people, they want to make the heinous legal, or keep it legal if it is already so.

Since it appears as though you have never heard a right wing congressperson say anything at all racist or otherwise heinous, I'll start you off easy.

Here's Steve King. Defend his statements if you like.

If Steve King isn't a true Scotsman republican, it's not that hard to find congresspeople and other prominent republicans being hateful.
  #50  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:52 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
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I'm cheered by this thread. Whenever conservatives feel secure in their power, they behave like rabid wolves and openly mock those they are abusing. The only time conservatives talk about courtesy and restraint is when they're out of power or expect to lose it in the near future. So I see the OP as an admission that the Republicans expect to do poorly in the November elections.
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