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  #101  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Okay, here's an immediate problem that I can see: If you redefine "God" as "Life", any potential issues with respect to a woman't right to abortion? Perhaps not for you, but for those who take this concept of "God is Life" a little too seriously.


I don't know that interchanging the words God and Life works for every case, but I'm certainly one who believes that life begins at conception, if not earlier. And sometimes it is necessary to end that life. Anybody who's had a miscarriage (one in five pregnancies) can probably relate to this. I don't think ending a life means ending God either. Like matter and energy, life just changes forms. It's a work in progress theory of the universe, but I think it has much merit.
  #102  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:46 AM
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Your thinking is rather wide, but under no circumstances would I call it "deep".

To each their own.
  #103  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:48 AM
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There are plenty of things in the Universe that don't depend on life, including some that are very beautiful and complex. And indeed, so far as we know, for most of the Universe's history, there was no life at all.


I guess that depends on how you define life. If you're by molecular or subatomic activity, then life is much more plentiful than we usually give credit for. I've always liked to consider the active volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io as "alive."
  #104  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:51 AM
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It's a work in progress theory of the universe, but I think it has much merit.
Without evidence it isn't a theory, and unless all you have is a reinterpretation of two words("If your redefine "Round" and "Square" to mean the same thing, you can fit a square peg in a round hole!") then I don't see any progress.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 04-28-2018 at 09:51 AM.
  #105  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:52 AM
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Does it ever bother you at all that religious/theistic thought hasn't had an original idea in centuries (if not millenia), yet is completely shameless in plagiarizing & co-opting scientific concepts and discoveries without doing the hard work required to show why all of a sudden, 'God=Life=Love=Pie'?


Maybe Pi as opposed to Pie. Infinitesimals have always made me ponder the mysteries of life. God. Love.


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  #106  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:53 AM
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Without evidence it isn't a theory, and unless all you have is a reinterpretation of two words("If your redefine "Round" and "Square" to mean the same thing, you can fit a square peg in a round hole!") then I don't see any progress.


Tell me: how do you define Life, Czarcasm?
  #107  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:53 AM
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I guess that depends on how you define life. If you're by molecular or subatomic activity, then life is much more plentiful than we usually give credit for. I've always liked to consider the active volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io as "alive."
They're not, no matter how hard you wish for it to be true.
  #108  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:55 AM
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If you think about what life does, what its purpose is, there is much more to contemplate.
What might “its purpose” be?
  #109  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:55 AM
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Tell me: how do you define Life, Czarcasm?
Since you are the one who claims not to use any dictionary definition, it is still upon you to give us your definition.
  #110  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:56 AM
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Like matter and energy, life just changes forms. It's a work in progress theory of the universe, but I think it has much merit.
This is in fact the working scientific theory of the universe. And there is no 'God=Life' equation required or implied.
  #111  
Old 04-28-2018, 09:56 AM
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Maybe Pi as opposed to Pie. Infinitesimals have always made me ponder the mysteries of life. God. Love.
Such wide thinking.
  #112  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:03 AM
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Maybe Pi as opposed to Pie. Infinitesimals have always made me ponder the mysteries of life. God. Love.
I just love Pie.

You're not the first nor the last to look for the God particle. Nobody has found one yet but it does appear to be shrinking at the rate just beyond the grasp of scientific discovery. Coincidence?
  #113  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:03 AM
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They're not, no matter how hard you wish for it to be true.


True, from a life is plane or animal state as contrasted with the dead state. But all that activity sure looks like life from a different perspective.
  #114  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:03 AM
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Does it ever bother you at all that religious/theistic thought hasn't had an original idea in centuries (if not millenia), yet is completely shameless in plagiarizing & co-opting scientific concepts and discoveries without doing the hard work required to show why all of a sudden, 'God=Life=Love=Pie'?
Religious thought tries to, among other things, define universal concepts, in Buddhism it's called Dharma, so i would expect a convergence of old concepts, which I do see. Different faiths are to me glimpses of this, not the total.

Science is our understanding of our material world, which is useful to see more aspects of the dharma. As such science is scripture, it is common for religions to quote scriptures.

I don't necessarily subscribe to God = Life, but I can entertain the concept, and without being demeaning or closed minded. I can add anything I have found on this to further the debate and perhaps the support of this thought experiment, and happy to see where it leads.

If done in good faith, it should as I see it, converge to the dharma, every faith to me does. Even such ones that have started out as intentionally phony, such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jedi religion, & Scientology. Even extinct ones like the Greek gods.
  #115  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:08 AM
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Since you are the one who claims not to use any dictionary definition, it is still upon you to give us your definition.

Well, it's not that I don't use dictionary definitions; it's just that I think this one needs to be expanded. Personal opinion.

This definition is the first one that Google provides, and I think gives us a good starting point for life: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.

This definition negates my fanciful thinking, of course, but that's kind of the point. I imagine there's more to life than what this definition proclaims. I'd say there's more to God as well.
  #116  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:09 AM
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Of course life doesn't begin at conception. Life begins billions of years ago. And human life doesn't begin at conception, either: It begins a million or so years ago, depending on precisely how you define "human".
  #117  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:09 AM
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True, from a life is plane or animal state as contrasted with the dead state. But all that activity sure looks like life from a different perspective.
It's life because, if you look at it in just the right way, it sorta looks like life?

There is no way to debate stuff this shallow-You guys have fun.
  #118  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:11 AM
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Religious thought tries to, among other things, define universal concepts, in Buddhism it's called Dharma, so i would expect a convergence of old concepts, which I do see. Different faiths are to me glimpses of this, not the total.



Science is our understanding of our material world, which is useful to see more aspects of the dharma. As such science is scripture, it is common for religions to quote scriptures.



I don't necessarily subscribe to God = Life, but I can entertain the concept, and without being demeaning or closed minded. I can add anything I have found on this to further the debate and perhaps the support of this thought experiment, and happy to see where it leads.



If done in good faith, it should as I see it, converge to the dharma, every faith to me does. Even such ones that have started out as intentionally phony, such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jedi religion, & Scientology. Even extinct ones like the Greek gods.


Thanks for your open-mindedness.
  #119  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:12 AM
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Religious thought tries to, among other things, define universal concepts, in Buddhism it's called Dharma, so i would expect a convergence of old concepts, which I do see. Different faiths are to me glimpses of this, not the total.
Demonstrably wrong to date. Every religion has attempted, at one time or another, to stifle the competing religion. This is still going on and there does not appear to be an end of it in our lifetime.

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Science is our understanding of our material world, which is useful to see more aspects of the dharma. As such science is scripture, it is common for religions to quote scriptures.
Demonstrably wrong. You do not understand science or it's methods. Science discards ideas that are found to be incorrect. Religion seeks ways to redefine terms in order to support wrong conclusions in a new way.

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I don't necessarily subscribe to God = Life, but I can entertain the concept, and without being demeaning or closed minded. I can add anything I have found on this to further the debate and perhaps the support of this thought experiment, and happy to see where it leads.

If done in good faith, it should as I see it, converge to the dharma, every faith to me does. Even such ones that have started out as intentionally phony, such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jedi religion, & Scientology. Even extinct ones like the Greek gods.
I confess to not being able to parse the above in order to respond to it.
  #120  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:14 AM
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God and Life

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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Demonstrably wrong to date. Every religion has attempted, at one time or another, to stifle the competing religion. This is still going on and there does not appear to be an end of it in our lifetime.







Demonstrably wrong. You do not understand science or it's methods. Science discards ideas that are found to be incorrect. Religion seeks ways to redefine terms in order to support wrong conclusions in a new way.







I confess to not being able to parse the above in order to respond to it.


Hmmm. "Confess" is a pretty loaded (and religious sounding) term...

Last edited by Biffster; 04-28-2018 at 10:15 AM.
  #121  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:16 AM
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Y'know what... I can't do this anymore. I may not believe in god, but I do have a Life.
  #122  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:19 AM
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It's life because, if you look at it in just the right way, it sorta looks like life?



There is no way to debate stuff this shallow-You guys have fun.


Best wishes on your travels. "Sorta looks like life"—no. Shows great activity which is one of the foundations of life, yes. There are many organisms that thrive at the bottom of the ocean where volcanic activity is present. Such could be the case with Io. Why not?
  #123  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:20 AM
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Y'know what... I can't do this anymore. I may not believe in god, but I do have a Life.


I see what you did there.
  #124  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:22 AM
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Of course life doesn't begin at conception. Life begins billions of years ago. And human life doesn't begin at conception, either: It begins a million or so years ago, depending on precisely how you define "human".

I like your way of thinking. If we consider life as a species as opposed to life as an individual organism, we have a much broader view of life.
  #125  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:36 AM
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Tell me: how do you define Life, Czarcasm?
I like the definition "a chemical system capable of undergoing evolution via natural selection."
  #126  
Old 04-28-2018, 10:50 AM
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I like the definition "a chemical system capable of undergoing evolution via natural selection."


I like that one. But of course, that would go beyond simply plant and animal life, wouldn't it?
  #127  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:12 AM
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I like that one. But of course, that would go beyond simply plant and animal life, wouldn't it?
The two kingdom model you are implying is decades out of date. But yes, it is meant to accomodate plants, animals, fungi, various groups once called protists, bacteria, archeans, viruses, possibly viriods, virusoids, and satellite viruses, but probably not prions. It also would include any self-replicating evolving non-protein/nucleic acid chemical systems that might possibly be discovered elsewhere, such as in one of the larger moons of one of a gas giants.

What it does not include is fire, volcanos, clouds, lightning bolts, snowflakes, or sand dunes.
  #128  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:19 AM
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I like the definition of "deepity," although I don't think that's what I'm promoting. I think, based on the numerous threads on the same subject, that the concept of God is problematic for a great number of people. So easy to disbelieve in. Walsch's description got me thinking however, over ten years ago, and the shoe still fits so I'm wearing it. I have no problem with redefining God, since I don't think He or She was all that well-defined to begin with.
People seem to be having more trouble with your definition of God than they are with the more traditional definitions.
  #129  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:34 AM
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The two kingdom model you are implying is decades out of date. But yes, it is meant to accomodate plants, animals, fungi, various groups once called protists, bacteria, archeans, viruses, possibly viriods, virusoids, and satellite viruses, but probably not prions. It also would include any self-replicating evolving non-protein/nucleic acid chemical systems that might possibly be discovered elsewhere, such as in one of the larger moons of one of a gas giants.

What it does not include is fire, volcanos, clouds, lightning bolts, snowflakes, or sand dunes.


Interesting. At least it is a pretty wide latitude definition, certainly beyond plants and animals anyway. By this definition, there could well be "life" elsewhere in the solar system, let alone the universe.
  #130  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:36 AM
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People seem to be having more trouble with your definition of God than they are with the more traditional definitions.


Ain't that the truth! Old habits die hard it seems.
  #131  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:36 PM
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By this definition, there could well be "life" elsewhere in the solar system, let alone the universe.
By any definition we've ever used this is true. There's nothing special about this definition. All DG did was apply that to the existing biological categories.
  #132  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:50 PM
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By any definition we've ever used this is true. There's nothing special about this definition. All DG did was apply that to the existing biological categories.

How would one determine whether or not life exists using this definition? Does it rely on longitudinal study in order to see the evolutionary aspect?
  #133  
Old 04-28-2018, 01:05 PM
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How would one determine whether or not life exists using this definition? Does it rely on longitudinal study in order to see the evolutionary aspect?
You need to identify genes or some other analog for passing traits to other generations.
  #134  
Old 04-28-2018, 01:51 PM
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You need to identify genes or some other analog for passing traits to other generations.


Viruses are a fun one, since they only seem to be alive when they are within a host organism. Or has that all changed since decades ago when I was learning rudimentary biology?
  #135  
Old 04-28-2018, 01:58 PM
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There is no “life”. We are all just avatars in a simulation of some sort. Hell, you might not even be real, AFAICT.
That's the hope. Otherwise, we're MOBs.
  #136  
Old 04-28-2018, 03:43 PM
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By any definition we've ever used this is true. There's nothing special about this definition. All DG did was apply that to the existing biological categories.

Not claiming to be the origin of the definition
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  #137  
Old 04-28-2018, 03:53 PM
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Viruses are a fun one, since they only seem to be alive when they are within a host organism. Or has that all changed since decades ago when I was learning rudimentary biology?
There is no consensus on wherther or not to concider viruses to be alive (which itself makes mockery of your definition of life) but I'm willing to entertain the position that viruses are highly streamlined endoparasites (taking them a few steps beyond mitochondria and chloroplasts.)

(Plus--wow, your science education really is from the plant/animal two kingdom model. Your information is profoundly out of date.)
  #138  
Old 04-28-2018, 04:08 PM
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That's a good definition, but is there anything simpler that would work for the layman? I don't think one should have to know that much about science in order to have a discussion over the similarities between God and Life.

In that most descriptions of God have to be metaphors, what is there about life that we might consider God-like or a creative force in the universe? For me, the fact that life exists at all is a pretty big miracle. That we have been unable to find signs of life in any of the other trillions of places in the universe so far suggests that life is a pretty rare thing. This planet, with its 23 degree inclination that creates seasons and its perfect temperature, plus or minus 30 degrees from zero Celsius for the most part, so water can exist in all three states, is so perfect for supporting life that we usually take it for granted.

Now if God (or some life force) created all we see, then I imagine we would have to include everything in the universe, beyond just life, because that is all part of our universe. At the point, the term "Life" actually falls short, though it does describe a lot. I'm just spitballing here, but one thing of which I am convinced is that the traditional definitions of God just don't work for me any more. I'm more atheistic in my views today, but I still believe in an all-powerful life force. Maybe I should have been a Jedi.
  #139  
Old 04-28-2018, 04:11 PM
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There is no consensus on wherther or not to concider viruses to be alive (which itself makes mockery of your definition of life) but I'm willing to entertain the position that viruses are highly streamlined endoparasites (taking them a few steps beyond mitochondria and chloroplasts.)

(Plus--wow, your science education really is from the plant/animal two kingdom model. Your information is profoundly out of date.)


"My" information is the first thing that appeared in a Google search for the word "life." It's a starting point, that's all. If you have something better, let's try that out.
  #140  
Old 04-28-2018, 04:35 PM
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Quoth Biffster:

Best wishes on your travels. "Sorta looks like life"—no. Shows great activity which is one of the foundations of life, yes.
Does God have foundations?
  #141  
Old 04-28-2018, 04:44 PM
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"My" information is the first thing that appeared in a Google search for the word "life." It's a starting point, that's all. If you have something better, let's try that out.
Strange--my Google search for the word "life" turns up as its first hits a movie, a magazine, and two definitions, neither of which are "plants and animals."
  #142  
Old 04-28-2018, 04:57 PM
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. This planet, with its 23 degree inclination that creates seasons and its perfect temperature, plus or minus 30 degrees from zero Celsius for the most part, so water can exist in all three states, is so perfect for supporting life that we usually take it for granted.

So you are watching the evening news, and they crew is interviewing someone who won a $500,000,000 lottery last week. Do you think to yourself "wow, out of the billions of people in the world, what are the chances of their interviewing the one who just won the lottery!"?

Life is like that--oddly, out of the trillions upon trillions of planets in the universe, life evolves only on the planets with the right conditions for life to evolve. You are boggling about the lottery winner getting attention after they won the lottery.
  #143  
Old 04-28-2018, 05:00 PM
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Does God have foundations?


Good question. Every religious writing I've ever seen about God would seem to suggest so—a sense of right and wrong, for starters.
  #144  
Old 04-28-2018, 05:01 PM
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Strange--my Google search for the word "life" turns up as its first hits a movie, a magazine, and two definitions, neither of which are "plants and animals."


That fiendish Google! Customizing our searches again.
  #145  
Old 04-28-2018, 05:04 PM
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So you are watching the evening news, and they crew is interviewing someone who won a $500,000,000 lottery last week. Do you think to yourself "wow, out of the billions of people in the world, what are the chances of their interviewing the one who just won the lottery!"?

Life is like that--oddly, out of the trillions upon trillions of planets in the universe, life evolves only on the planets with the right conditions for life to evolve. You are boggling about the lottery winner getting attention after they won the lottery.

And all this life existing in the relative thickness of a coat of paint on a rubber ball too—from the bottoms of the ocean to the troposphere. What are the odds?
  #146  
Old 04-28-2018, 05:38 PM
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And all this life existing in the relative thickness of a coat of paint on a rubber ball too—from the bottoms of the ocean to the troposphere. What are the odds?
The odds are good enough that it happened at least once that we know if in this solar system. So greater than zero.
  #147  
Old 04-28-2018, 06:50 PM
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And all this life existing in the relative thickness of a coat of paint on a rubber ball too—from the bottoms of the ocean to the troposphere. What are the odds?
1:1
  #148  
Old 04-28-2018, 07:11 PM
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Good question. Every religious writing I've ever seen about God would seem to suggest so—a sense of right and wrong, for starters.
But a sense of right and wrong are not foundations of life. And if they are foundations of God, then why not worship those?
  #149  
Old 04-28-2018, 08:18 PM
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God and Life

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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
But a sense of right and wrong are not foundations of life. And if they are foundations of God, then why not worship those?

Maybe we should. But right and wrong also have utilitarian dimensions. What may be right for me—killing an enemy for example—would definitely not be good for my enemy. Religions do tend to try to codify what is right and what is wrong, nonetheless. In nature, what is right or wrong often depends on where in the food chain you happen to reside.

Last edited by Biffster; 04-28-2018 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:23 PM
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Does science have much to say about why life began in the first place? Not so much how, or how evolution changes things, but why? I don't know that religion provides a very good answer either, but I believe this has always been a blind spot for science.
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