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Old 01-31-2018, 12:14 PM
rat avatar rat avatar is offline
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"CAM" vets should be charged with animal cruelty

My husky had a simple cut pad escalate to a abscess because the vet prescribed what ended up being a herbal/homeopathic cream instead of a product that actually works.

I not informed that this vet was prescribing a non-evidence based solution, and now she is suffering far more than she would have with just a normal product. Quit forcing your damn religious beliefs onto animals and unsuspecting consumers. Water doesn't have flipping memory and your entire field is bullshit.

You should serve time for causing unnecessary pain and suffering.

Unlike humans they cannot choose to suffer based on religious myths.

Last edited by rat avatar; 01-31-2018 at 12:14 PM.
  #2  
Old 01-31-2018, 12:22 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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What the hell is a "CAM" vet?
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Old 01-31-2018, 12:34 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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What the hell is a "CAM" vet?
Complementary and Alternative Medicines, but it was took some digging to figure it out.

ETA, I agree, if the person that treated your pet is an actual DVM, I'd probably look into discussing what happened with some kind of higher ups. A licensing board of some kind. A doctor of any kind (vet, MD, dentist etc) shouldn't be treating a pet or human with homeopathics unknowingly. If you want that for yourself, that's find, but it's not what you wanted and certainly not what you expected. I assume nothing on the front of the building, in the reception area or the room made it obvious the dog wasn't going to get actual meds.

Last edited by Joey P; 01-31-2018 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 01-31-2018, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
What the hell is a "CAM" vet?
Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

Woo-woo!
ETA: I'd file a complaint with whoever licenses vets.

Last edited by running coach; 01-31-2018 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:05 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by rat avatar View Post
My husky had a simple cut pad escalate to a abscess because the vet prescribed what ended up being a herbal/homeopathic cream instead of a product that actually works.

I not informed that this vet was prescribing a non-evidence based solution,
(post shortened)

Sorry to hear about your dog, but perhaps you should have googled the name of what-ever-it-was the almost vet prescribed, at your earliest opportunity? It's easier/safer to make adjustments, and changes, at the beginning of treatment. just sayin'
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:13 PM
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(post shortened)

Sorry to hear about your dog, but perhaps you should have googled the name of what-ever-it-was the almost vet prescribed, at your earliest opportunity? It's easier/safer to make adjustments, and changes, at the beginning of treatment. just sayin'
Perhaps the patient should be able to trust the doctor to not be a woo moron.
Typical blame the victim.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:55 PM
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Possibly a slight, possibly a real nitpick: there's a difference between "herbal" and "homeopathic." Some herbal remedies are fairly effective and evidence-based treatments for conditions: aloe vera as a treatment for burns has documented benefits.

True homeopathic remedies are, in sufficient quantities, effective treatments for dehydration, but nothing else.

So, do you know whether it was a regular herbal treatment, or a homeopathic one?
  #8  
Old 01-31-2018, 02:42 PM
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Check if there is any sort of licensing board that you can file a complaint with.

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Perhaps the patient should be able to trust the doctor[...]
That would be nice, but this a good way to end up dead.
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Old 01-31-2018, 03:23 PM
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Perhaps the patient should be able to trust the doctor to not be a woo moron.
Typical blame the victim.
Hahahaha. Trust, but verify. You and your dog (if you have a dog) will live longer.

The "victim" is the dog, and nobody seems to be doing a very good job of watching out for the dog.

Last edited by doorhinge; 01-31-2018 at 03:24 PM.
  #10  
Old 01-31-2018, 03:32 PM
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Possibly a slight, possibly a real nitpick: there's a difference between "herbal" and "homeopathic." Some herbal remedies are fairly effective and evidence-based treatments for conditions: aloe vera as a treatment for burns has documented benefits.

True homeopathic remedies are, in sufficient quantities, effective treatments for dehydration, but nothing else.

So, do you know whether it was a regular herbal treatment, or a homeopathic one?
In theory you are correct, but is not a meaningful delimiter in reality.

in States that allow "Naturopathic Physicians" to be registered, and which legitimize the sale of said products in the state by other medical professions only do so through the Homeopathic exception.

Note how Bastyr University is one of the larger schools that are allowed.

https://www.doh.wa.gov/LicensesPermi...seRequirements

Feel free to look over Bastyr's curriculum, but homeopathic classes are always required.

https://bastyr.edu/academics/naturop...thic-doctorate

Because the non-scientific loophole that allowed these untested methods to be shilled by snakeoil salesman depends on that ancient anti-scientific exemption.

Otherwise remedies that could pass the scientific muster under an evidence based model could just be called medicine.

While I will not post the product information until I consider possible legal remedies, the tube of BS also was marked as a Homeopathic Remedy.

This is exactly the same way that BS products like Flexall 454 and Zicam were sold. They short circuit the ability for any consumer protection group to regulate the claims until damage happens due to that pre-germ theory BS.
  #11  
Old 01-31-2018, 04:11 PM
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This is exactly the same way that BS products like Flexall 454 and Zicam were sold.
Ok, I know the Zicam story but what is the issue with Flexall 454?
  #12  
Old 01-31-2018, 05:17 PM
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Ok, I know the Zicam story but what is the issue with Flexall 454?
I'd never heard of it either, I looked at it online, it's just Menthol in a cream base. It's basically the same as Bengay. From what I can tell there's other variations of it out there, just like Bengay, that have Camphor or methyl salicylate (a pain reliever, I assume it's related to asprin).

I've never heard of Bengay being woo, maybe it is, I've never tried it for anything real, I just remember when we were kids we'd see how much we could put on our arms/legs before it got too warm.

Anyways, yes, products marked as homeopathic don't go through FDA testing IIRC. But it's probably still worth talking to someone, somewhere to see if a DVM should be telling you that they'll heal your pet, especially when you brought your pet there expecting traditional Western/conventional/Science backed/etc medicine. IOW, you thought you were getting a tube of antibiotics.
  #13  
Old 01-31-2018, 07:42 PM
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What does alternative medicine have to do with religious beliefs? It's bullshit, but not necessarily religious.

(Yeah, the vet is a tool and I'd definitely file a complaint)
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:50 PM
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I'd never heard of it either, I looked at it online, it's just Menthol in a cream base. It's basically the same as Bengay. From what I can tell there's other variations of it out there, just like Bengay, that have Camphor or methyl salicylate (a pain reliever, I assume it's related to asprin).

I've never heard of Bengay being woo, maybe it is, I've never tried it for anything real, I just remember when we were kids we'd see how much we could put on our arms/legs before it got too warm.

Anyways, yes, products marked as homeopathic don't go through FDA testing IIRC. But it's probably still worth talking to someone, somewhere to see if a DVM should be telling you that they'll heal your pet, especially when you brought your pet there expecting traditional Western/conventional/Science backed/etc medicine. IOW, you thought you were getting a tube of antibiotics.


"Homeopathic products are similar to dietary supplements, in that the FDA does not review their safety or effectiveness before they are sold. But unlike supplements, homeopathic medicines can state that they are intended for specific medical symptoms and conditions, similar to drugs"

The claimed use is the case with zicam etc...


https://www.statnews.com/2017/12/18/...medicines-fda/
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:58 PM
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What does alternative medicine have to do with religious beliefs? It's bullshit, but not necessarily religious.

(Yeah, the vet is a tool and I'd definitely file a complaint)
They are both faith based.
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:12 PM
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Perhaps the patient should be able to trust the doctor to not be a woo moron.
Having supervised and reviewed the performance of dozens of my fellow physicians over the last 20+ years of my career, I have to say that I do not trust the average doctor to not be a woo moron. I've seen US residency trained, board certified MDs embrace homeopathy, aromatherapy, aura manipulation and worse.

While it's definitely a minority, there are a LOT of physicians out there who have succumbed to the woo and don't practice evidence-based medicine. Sadly, the patient must be cautious. So ask questions. And if you're not satisfied by the answers, don't settle. Check out other docs.
  #17  
Old 01-31-2018, 08:34 PM
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While I will not post the product information until I consider possible legal remedies, the tube of BS also was marked as a Homeopathic Remedy.
Why would you use a product that says "Homeopathic Remedy" right on it?
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:18 PM
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Why would you use a product that says "Homeopathic Remedy" right on it?
It was in the fine print, it looks like any antimicrobial wound agent, until you see that it's "active ingredients" are oxygenated olive oil, calendula, and lavender essential oil

Last edited by rat avatar; 01-31-2018 at 09:19 PM.
  #19  
Old 01-31-2018, 09:23 PM
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So it didn't actually say "Homeopathic Remedy" on the tube?
  #20  
Old 01-31-2018, 09:28 PM
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So it didn't actually say "Homeopathic Remedy" on the tube?
Nope, but a cut paw and some stitches has gone bad because it is only through the Homœopathic Pharmacopœia of the United States (HPUS) that it is sold with the claims it has.

What is your point?
  #21  
Old 02-01-2018, 07:38 AM
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Check if there is any sort of licensing board that you can file a complaint with.
Licensing Boards often have limited regulatory control when it comes to CAM, and it varies by state. Locally there is a "Doctor" who is a naturopath. He uses ear-candles, uses a patient's aura diagnostically, and does "natural chemo". People have complained, yet he is free to practice, since "naturopaths" police their own ranks in PA. Have a complaint? Talk to the Naturopath Regulatory Board.
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Old 02-01-2018, 07:45 AM
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Homeopathy is quackery and should be outlawed. The "science" behind it is total rubbish. Why civilized nations allow this ripoff to continue, for human or animal treatment, baffles me.
  #23  
Old 02-01-2018, 07:45 AM
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Well, marigold (calendula) is good for treating wounds (it is an anti-inflammatory), olive oil is also good for wounds (keeps them moist so they heal up plus is an anti-inflammatory) and lavender is also antiseptic and anti-inflammatory.

Now, if the salve did not work and the wound was getting worse it is up to you, the human, to ask for something different. Same as if you were given a tube of antibiotics and it didn't work to heal the wound (which could happen if there was some foreign matter still in the foot pad or if the wound healed shut but a pocket of pus formed etc).
  #24  
Old 02-01-2018, 08:09 AM
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Licensing Boards often have limited regulatory control when it comes to CAM, and it varies by state. Locally there is a "Doctor" who is a naturopath. He uses ear-candles, uses a patient's aura diagnostically, and does "natural chemo". People have complained, yet he is free to practice, since "naturopaths" police their own ranks in PA. Have a complaint? Talk to the Naturopath Regulatory Board.
Is it a vet or a "vet"? That's why I suggested the OP check.
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:21 AM
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Some products are marketed as "homeopathic" when they are not - i.e. they have supposedly active ingredients far in excess of what would be found in a highly diluted traditional homeopathic remedy. This appears designed to skirt regulations for usual drugs, and/or to appeal to people who think "homeopathic" means natural/good, as opposed to nasty ol' allopathic medicine.

It's hard to tell from the OP if the stuff in that vet cream is present at homeopathic levels or not. If the calendula, lavender etc. is there at (for instance) at 30C dilution, it's a homeopathic product and (in my opinion) a vet has no business prescribing it for a wound that's at risk for infection. If the "active ingredients" are present at non-super-diluted levels, then the medication falls more into a dubious rather than outright quack category. Checking the uses of these herbal agents, I don't see super-convincing evidence of their efficacy for wound healing (for instance, WebMD cites insufficient evidence for calendula). A partial list of indications for calendula (same source, all with "insufficient evidence" for the cited uses):

Anal tears (anal fissures).
Diaper rash.
Ear infections (otitis media).
Skin inflammation due to radiation therapy (radiation dermatitis).
Thinning of the wall of the vagina (vaginal atrophy).
Leg ulcers.
Muscle spasms.
Fever.
Cancer.
Nosebleeds.
Varicose veins.
Hemorrhoids.
Promoting menstruation.
Treating mouth and throat soreness.
Wounds.
Other conditions.


A list like this suggests application of Jackmannii's First Law of Quackery, which states that the more conditions a drug or supplement is claimed to treat, the less likely that it's effective for any one of them.

I am sad to say that woo appears to have infiltrated veterinary medicine at least as much as its human counterpart. When we were getting our Lab treated for lymphoma recently (using evidence-based care), I noted that the specialized veterinary cancer clinic where she was being seen also offered acupuncture and other vet-woo.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 02-01-2018 at 08:22 AM.
  #26  
Old 02-01-2018, 01:01 PM
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I'm pretty sure the OP is a pharmacist. If he doesn't notice, what hope is there for us laypeople?
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Old 02-01-2018, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rat avatar View Post
Nope, but a cut paw and some stitches has gone bad because it is only through the Homœopathic Pharmacopœia of the United States (HPUS) that it is sold with the claims it has.

What is your point?
HPUS?

That seems like a clue right there.
  #28  
Old 02-01-2018, 01:04 PM
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It was in the fine print...
Yeah, but homeopathy only needs a couple of tiny letters to be effective.
  #29  
Old 02-01-2018, 01:33 PM
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I've seen US residency trained, board certified MDs embrace homeopathy, aromatherapy, aura manipulation and worse.
It's easy for them to embrace, once they check out the profit margins on that junk.
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:43 PM
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Well, marigold (calendula) is good for treating wounds (it is an anti-inflammatory), olive oil is also good for wounds (keeps them moist so they heal up plus is an anti-inflammatory) and lavender is also antiseptic and anti-inflammatory.

Now, if the salve did not work and the wound was getting worse it is up to you, the human, to ask for something different. Same as if you were given a tube of antibiotics and it didn't work to heal the wound (which could happen if there was some foreign matter still in the foot pad or if the wound healed shut but a pocket of pus formed etc).
Please provide an at least double-blind clinical study.

All of the products in place seem to be provings, or basic 60min petridish tests.
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:44 PM
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HPUS?

That seems like a clue right there.
I had to go look up the ingredients, that part was not on the product.
  #32  
Old 02-01-2018, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mistymage View Post

Now, if the salve did not work and the wound was getting worse it is up to you, the human, to ask for something different. Same as if you were given a tube of antibiotics and it didn't work to heal the wound (which could happen if there was some foreign matter still in the foot pad or if the wound healed shut but a pocket of pus formed etc).
Victim blaming there, I was discouraged from using Neosporin or other products. And I did call about some tenderness and they suggested that I increase frequency of applications but to not change to another product.

I escalated and got a second opinion, and the vet mentioned that the product was inappropriate and I started to research why.

That is when I discovered that it was based on hopes and dreams for money and some fetish around "natural" healthy rather than sound modern medical best practices.

But as you are shifting blame, how do you know that they didn't replace Betadine with some other woofilled product, and that improper wound care allowed the infection to take hold?

If these snakeoil salespeople were willing to mark their products clearly as being based on faith vs science I would maybe see some validity to your claim but it took a lot of work to figure out.

Last edited by rat avatar; 02-01-2018 at 03:58 PM.
  #33  
Old 02-01-2018, 04:04 PM
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Ever hear of this nonsense, pet acupuncture?
  #34  
Old 02-01-2018, 04:20 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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Sure. My cat subjects me to it regularly.
  #35  
Old 02-01-2018, 04:21 PM
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Please provide an at least double-blind clinical study.

All of the products in place seem to be provings, or basic 60min petridish tests.
I'll just offer up one:

"Pharmacological studies reveal that C. officinalis exhibits antibacterial, antiviral, anti-inflammatory, anti-tumor and antioxidant properties; C. arvensis possesses antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, antimutagenic and hemolytic activities; and C. suffruticosa exhibits antimicrobial activity"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3841996/
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Old 02-01-2018, 05:32 PM
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Sure. My cat subjects me to it regularly.
Every time I actually laugh at a one-liner, I look afterward and it's one of yours.
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Old 02-01-2018, 07:30 PM
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Sure. My cat subjects me to it regularly.
I like your joke, but what I'm talking about is a real thing. Of course that's real as in people have an acupuncturist (charlatan) inflict that abuse on the animal, as opposed to being a real effective treatment.
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Old 02-01-2018, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mistymage View Post
I'll just offer up one:

"Pharmacological studies reveal that C. officinalis exhibits antibacterial, antiviral, anti-inflammatory, anti-tumor and antioxidant properties; C. arvensis possesses antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, antimutagenic and hemolytic activities; and C. suffruticosa exhibits antimicrobial activity"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3841996/
I was going to check their numbers..until the "cleansing and detoxifying" turkey tracks poped up.


Quote:
Calendula is a cleansing and detoxifying herb and the infusion treat chronic infections.
And note the citations:

56. Dumenil G, Chemli R, Balansard C, Guiraud H, Lallemand M. Evaluation of antibacterial properties of marigold flowers (Calendula officinalis L.) and mother homeopathic tinctures of C. officinalis L. and C. arvensis L. (author's transl) Ann Pharm Fr. 1980;38:493–9.
And no clinical trials on that use....

Last edited by rat avatar; 02-01-2018 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:15 PM
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Hahahaha. Trust, but verify. You and your dog (if you have a dog) will live longer.

The "victim" is the dog, and nobody seems to be doing a very good job of watching out for the dog.
How often to you have to trace down and read low quality studies looking for vague references to homeopathy?

While one should always research, veterinary medical community and the human health care community should be focused on the safety and efficacy of medical therapies should be established by scientific methods and that unsafe and ineffective therapies should not be employed.

Quackery has limited the FDAs Mission

Quote:
FDA Mission. The Food and Drug Administration is responsible for protecting the public health by ensuring the safety, efficacy, and security of human and veterinary drugs, biological products, and medical devices; and by ensuring the safety of our nation's food supply, cosmetics, and products that emit radiation.
And please justify the entire role of state licenseure and certification of the medical profession is there is zero responsibility for those who practice to actually act in a fashion that considers the safety and efficacy.

To quote the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee review of homeopathy:

Quote:
“For patient choice to be real choice, patients must be adequately informed to understand the implications of treatments. For homeopathy this would certainly require an explanation that homeopathy is a placebo. When this is not done, patient choice is meaningless.”
  #40  
Old 02-01-2018, 10:32 PM
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Nope, but a cut paw and some stitches has gone bad because it is only through the Homœopathic Pharmacopœia of the United States (HPUS) that it is sold with the claims it has.

What is your point?
My point was that you posted that the "tube of BS also was marked as a Homeopathic Remedy" and I was wondering why you used it if it was marked as such. And it turns out it was not marked as such. I just wondered why you would use something like that.
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:47 PM
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My point was that you posted that the "tube of BS also was marked as a Homeopathic Remedy" and I was wondering why you used it if it was marked as such. And it turns out it was not marked as such. I just wondered why you would use something like that.
That was a typo sorry,

I intended to say:

"tube of BS also was marked as medicine but was a Homeopathic Remedy"

Last edited by rat avatar; 02-01-2018 at 10:48 PM.
  #42  
Old 02-01-2018, 10:52 PM
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Well fuck...I like my state but it looks like this BS is officially sanctioned.

Quote:
WAC 246-933-460
Organizations, institutions or individuals approved by the veterinary board to provide continuing education courses.
<snip>
(j) The Registry of Alternative and Integrative Veterinary Medical Education (RAIVE).
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:57 PM
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I'll just offer up one:

"Pharmacological studies reveal that C. officinalis exhibits antibacterial, antiviral, anti-inflammatory, anti-tumor and antioxidant properties; C. arvensis possesses antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, antimutagenic and hemolytic activities; and C. suffruticosa exhibits antimicrobial activity"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3841996/
Yeah, that's a review article. There are a lot of citations to the effect that it "is used for" various indications, which is not at all the same as saying that it "is actually useful for" any of those indications. There are citations of petri dish and animal studies which are interesting, but which don't remotely constitute conclusive evidence of efficacy. Lastly there are some small human clinical trials, which suggest that it is superior to placebo for treatment of burns, dermatitis, and venous ulcers; no studies have been conducted on incisions in dog paws. There's nothing necessarily wrong with the article; it's useful to summarize the claims that have been made for the plant, even if said claims aren't backed by evidence. And the authors don't seem to be making any claims that go beyond the available evidence. But there's nothing here that changes my view that it's malpractice to prescribe this to someone who assumes they are getting an actual antibiotic.
  #44  
Old 02-02-2018, 03:07 AM
Fugazi Fugazi is offline
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Yeah, but homeopathy only needs a couple of tiny letters to be effective.
Now THAT was funny.

Funnier would have been, homeopathy only needs a couple of tiny letters to provide an effective warning.
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  #45  
Old 02-02-2018, 06:35 AM
Batano Batano is offline
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I went to a homeopath. He sent me a bill for a $100. I took a $1 bill, tore it in 10 pieces, and then tore one of the pieces into 10 more pieces, and sent him one of those pieces.
  #46  
Old 02-02-2018, 02:22 PM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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I went to a homeopath. He sent me a bill for a $100. I took a $1 bill, tore it in 10 pieces, and then tore one of the pieces into 10 more pieces, and sent him one of those pieces.
I like it! Even better would have been to soak the bill in a phial of water for a while, then dilute the phial's water. Don't forget the succussion.

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Homeopathy is quackery and should be outlawed. The "science" behind it is total rubbish. Why civilized nations allow this ripoff to continue, for human or animal treatment, baffles me.
I can't answer for other countries' regulations, but in ours, "supplements" and homeopathic "remedies" had a powerful friend until recently.
  #47  
Old 02-02-2018, 02:33 PM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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That was a typo sorry,

I intended to say:

"tube of BS also was marked as medicine but was a Homeopathic Remedy"
Oh ok. Thanks!
  #48  
Old 02-02-2018, 02:54 PM
rat avatar rat avatar is offline
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The fundamental disconnect seems that in some peoples world view "natural" means health or good for you.

The reason I am not surprised that plant material have antibacterial properties is because the reality is that many of these compounds evolved due to an escalation of warfare. Many tastes and flavors we like are actually weapons for the plants against other targets, some bitter tastes in vegetables are powerful insecticides as an example.

In some cases we get lucky and we can leverage those features for flavorings and other times for medical purposes. But it is unknown until we test it if that property will still have the same action under another application. It may be that the pH of skin changes that behavior, or that the material is only effective when in a solvent.

In the case of marigold flowers it seems that all of the currently know antibacterial effects require a methylated extraction method and carrier to have a reasonable amount of effectiveness. Yet the product I was prescribed does not use that method.


I think sometimes people who subscribe to a belief in homeopathic methods miss that point. It is not that I am saying there are no compounds to be found or leveraged that may help. But that the well discredited core fundamental tenants of homeopathy actually block the discovery and use of those properties.

It is by discarding valid scientific methods that homeopathic claims fail and the fact that there may be a useful component to their myths is pure accident. By shilling this fundamental error onto consumers without their connect it actually prevents the discovery of real "natural" cures.
  #49  
Old 02-02-2018, 03:42 PM
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Skywatcher Skywatcher is offline
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Well fuck...I like my state but it looks like this BS is officially sanctioned.
Sounds like a bunch of raving woo-pushers.
  #50  
Old 02-02-2018, 08:34 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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The reason I am not surprised that plant material have antibacterial properties is because the reality is that many of these compounds evolved due to an escalation of warfare.
Lots of substances, "natural" or otherwise have antibacterial activity, at least in test tube/cell culture conditions.* The trick is developing a formulation that's effective (and safe**) in the human or other mammalian body.

*relevant xkcd cartoon (substitute "bacteria" for "cancer").
**while calendula (for instance) seems to be relatively non-toxic as herbs go, it's not without associated problems. For instance, it and other members of the Compositae are known to induce allergic reactions in susceptible people, as I found out years ago after recommending that a family member afflicted with migraines try feverfew (which has modest research/clinical trial backing for that purpose). She had to stop taking it after developing an itchy rash.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 02-02-2018 at 08:35 PM.
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