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  #101  
Old 05-18-2019, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Covfefe View Post
So rather than not distribute the yearbooks, it is better that they did not distribute the yearbooks.
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I had formed an opinion on the yearbook distribution/non-distribution issue. I don't even know yet if the people who paid in advance for their yearbooks are getting refunds.
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Originally Posted by Covfefe View Post
Are you aware of white supremacists who would feel perfectly fine if they never again encountered another human who is non-white? No room for them in that conceptualization.
I'll confess that I didn't make room for them, and that I don't really think of their preference as being a thing that is achievable.

See? I'm not against the IDEA of things being unworthy of consideration, and therefore dismissable.

Anyway, wouldn't they be more "white isolatonists?"

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 05-18-2019 at 01:21 PM.
  #102  
Old 05-18-2019, 01:59 PM
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It occurs to me that "social justice" does not have to mean something negative* in order for "Social Justice Warrior" to. Yeah, it sucks, but it's the world we're living in, and insisting that it isn't does nothing to advance your interests.





*it doesn't
The idea of "SJW" as a pejorative is to make it such that framing things as issues of "social justice" becomes associated with that pejorative, to make fighting for social justice something mockable and a joke.

By responding to "SJW" as an insult you assist that effort. It is as unto responding to "gay" as if it was an insult. Just because they mean it as one does not mean I need to accept it, or more importantly, validate it as one.


To me the only answer to a charge of being a "Social Justice Warrior" is "well I would hope so, but I may not actually measure up ... you fight for social injustice?"

Rolling over on the use of words and symbols, allowing those I think of as "the bad guys" to redefine my words and symbols, is how "liberal" became a negative for so long. I track it at least back to Dukakis accepting "card carrying member of the ACLU" as an insult when the right and best answer was "Damn straight, there is nothing more important to our values as Americans than defending free speech, and that means more than the right for me to say what I want to say, and to hear what I want to hear, it means the right of others to say what I do not want to hear as well, or it don't mean squat."
  #103  
Old 05-18-2019, 05:43 PM
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In this case, though, actual white supremacists (such as the NZ shooter, for example, and those politicians mentioned elsewhere in this thread) have adopted the symbol at face value. Is it catering to the gullible and over-sensitive if actual bigots use the symbol un-ironically?
As a migrant, in Aus, I'm saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I've never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any 'foreign' culture) was superior or definitive.

Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.

Last edited by Melbourne; 05-18-2019 at 05:44 PM.
  #104  
Old 05-18-2019, 05:48 PM
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Hopefully, this cheers you up:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/20...n-from-wrigley

It's being used in the US, too. I just used the examples already in this thread.

Do I know that the fan was a white supremacist or just a trolling fucking asshole? Well, I'm not a mind reader. I'll go with both until I learn otherwise. It's pretty nasty putting that sign behind a black announcer.
  #105  
Old 05-18-2019, 05:57 PM
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Here are some members of the Alabama police force doing it:

https://www.al.com/news/2018/07/jasp...ended_for.html

Probably just 4chan guys.

BTW, the 4chan post that claimed that the whole thing is a hoax to troll "SJWs" came out after the alt-right started using that symbol. I assume the people here saying it's a 4chan hoax will be by shortly to apologize. Cite:

https://medium.com/s/story/does-the-...t-6cf3309df985

Quote:
The 4chan “hoax” post was made on February 27, 2017. Two weeks before this post was made, Media Matters had already called it a “hate symbol.
  #106  
Old 05-18-2019, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Melbourne View Post
As a migrant, in Aus, I'm saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I've never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any 'foreign' culture) was superior or definitive.

Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.
...as tangata whenua, I'm not saddened to say that with all due respect I don't know what on earth you are talking about. White supremacy knows no borders. This isn't about "criteria for behaviour." The Christchurch shooter didn't use that symbol by accident. He didn't do it for an exclusively New Zealand audience. He knew exactly what he was doing.
  #107  
Old 05-18-2019, 06:45 PM
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Yes, and he wasn't Hurr-hurr-trolling anyone either. He was slaughtering people.
  #108  
Old 05-19-2019, 04:42 AM
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...as tangata whenua, I'm not saddened to say that with all due respect I don't know what on earth you are talking about. ...
I've reviewed what I wrote, and it seems to be fairly clear. I'm taking it that your inability to understand comes only from an unwillingness to engage with the ideas.
  #109  
Old 05-19-2019, 04:50 AM
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As a migrant, in Aus, I'm saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I've never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any 'foreign' culture) was superior or definitive.

Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.
You're right.

Clearly, if someone stands up and throws a roman salute in, say, Australia, that can't mean anything. After all, that could mean something totally different there!

Oh wait, except in this case, we know the person who did so we a big fan of hitler, and definitely knew exactly what it meant, and wrote a whole screed about how great hitler was.

Nah, still could be an innocent cultural misunderstanding, right?



We have more than just wild guesses to go on here. This guy was not appealing to "NZ culture" or any shit like that. He was using a symbol common within internet white supremacist circles, and doing so intentionally. To claim otherwise, simply because of "cultural distance", is nuts.
  #110  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:50 AM
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I've reviewed what I wrote, and it seems to be fairly clear.
...I've reviewed what you wrote, and I passed it around the official SJW committee and they reviewed what you wrote, and they all agree with me that what I said was absolutely correct.

Quote:
I'm taking it that your inability to understand comes only from an unwillingness to engage with the ideas.
I am absolutely fucking willing to engage with ideas. I actually engaged with your ideas, I argued why I thought your ideas were wrong. That's how engagement works. We know exactly what the Christchurch shooter was doing. And I know better than most. I've actually engaged with people from the alt-right. I'm tangata whenua. Unlike you I live here. Maori have been actively targeted by white supremacists. We know what is going on.

Your decision to snip what I wrote, to focus on a cherry picked snipped sentence demonstrates one things: an unwillingness to engage with ideas. You want to have a discussion? I'm right here. Have at it.
  #111  
Old 05-19-2019, 09:46 AM
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... I track it at least back to Dukakis accepting "card carrying member of the ACLU" as an insult when the right and best answer was "Damn straight, there is nothing more important to our values as Americans than defending free speech, and that means more than the right for me to say what I want to say, and to hear what I want to hear, it means the right of others to say what I do not want to hear as well, or it don't mean squat."
I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
  #112  
Old 05-19-2019, 11:06 AM
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I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
Imagine thinking this is the most sensible response you can make to this thread.

Imagine being that person.
  #113  
Old 05-19-2019, 11:17 AM
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Imagine thinking this is the most sensible response you can make to this thread.

Imagine being that person.
Personally, I think it's far more sensible than the hand-wringing over the OK sign.
  #114  
Old 05-19-2019, 04:03 PM
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Point of reference: I just went through my high school yearbook (early 90s) and I didn't see a single OK sign in any picture. It's not a common thing to do when posing for a picture. If there are multiple instances of kids flashing OK, then I'd say there's something going on...
  #115  
Old 05-19-2019, 04:32 PM
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I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
No need. They know and exemplify that value.
Quote:
The ACLU is frequently asked to explain its defense of certain people or groups — particularly controversial and unpopular entities such as the Ku Klux Klan, the Nation of Islam, and the National Socialist Party of America. We do not defend them because we agree with them. Rather we defend their right to free expression and free assembly.

Historically, the people whose opinions are the most controversial or extreme are the people whose rights are most often threatened. Once the government has the power to violate one person’s rights, it can use that power against everyone. We work to stop the erosion of civil liberties before it’s too late.
(Of course the freedom to express any specific belief, or to use any specific gesture, in a student yearbook is not a protected right, whether the gesture is a political statement I agree with, find obscenely offensive, or completely benign but potentially misunderstood. And the right to express also includes the right to express condemnation of what is expressed.)

Monocracy - One, these are believed to have been candids of kids, not posing. Two, amazingly what kids do when goofing around candidly and what games they play with each may change over a decade plus.
  #116  
Old 05-19-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Monocracy View Post
Point of reference: I just went through my high school yearbook (early 90s) and I didn't see a single OK sign in any picture. It's not a common thing to do when posing for a picture. If there are multiple instances of kids flashing OK, then I'd say there's something going on...
I was photographer for my hs yearbook in 1976. A friend, Jeff B., flashed a middle finger in a large group shot. He told me he did it. I saw it right away, but it slipped by the editors and proofreaders.

ETA: no ok signs, but a few peace signs.

Last edited by kayaker; 05-19-2019 at 05:23 PM.
  #117  
Old 05-19-2019, 06:20 PM
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I was photographer for my hs yearbook in 1976. A friend, Jeff B., flashed a middle finger in a large group shot. He told me he did it. I saw it right away, but it slipped by the editors and proofreaders.

ETA: no ok signs, but a few peace signs.
One of my friends said that in their yearbook a guy exposed himself by moving his shorts. He was sitting down in a group and it got by everyone.
  #118  
Old 05-19-2019, 06:32 PM
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It was a simpler time.
  #119  
Old 05-19-2019, 06:47 PM
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One of my friends said that in their yearbook a guy exposed himself by moving his shorts. He was sitting down in a group and it got by everyone.
...I'm a photographer: and yeah, I've had this happen to me more often than I've ever had someone flash an OK hand-signal. (Which is only once in 8 years of full time photography: I caught it and deleted it and used an alternate take)
  #120  
Old 05-20-2019, 12:37 PM
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Email update today. Plan is still to figure out some solution that allows for yearbooks to be distributed at some later date and meanwhile blank books will distributed for signatures. Meeting by the board with public invited tonight but on such short notice I don’t think I can make it.

Again no accusation of ill intent being made.
  #121  
Old 05-20-2019, 12:48 PM
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In our Jr. High yearbook, we had a jerk flash the middle finger in his class photo. Not only did they cross out the finger, his face was crossed out as punishment. But this was only doable because they caught it at the editing stage. This was in 1973.
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  #122  
Old 05-20-2019, 12:57 PM
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She has friends who worked on the yearbook so has some detail regarding the actual photo. Hand held upright above the shoulder taken of a yearbook staffer saying okay. No prank intended and no racist message intended. All approved by administrators before going to the printer.
At this point I hope it's not revealing too much information to point out that this incident has made the news.

Quote:
Oak Park River Forest High School is hurriedly editing its yearbook after a number of students were seen making a potentially racist hand gesture, school officials said this week.

Several photos apparently showed students making a hand symbol in the yearbook, according to school officials, that has been associated with white supremacy as well as a so-called "circle game" popular among children.
I know they're not making any accusations of intent but it's worth noting that the media coverage is reporting multiple examples of the gesture.

The linked article also mentions some of the previous racial incidents in the school. Yikes!
  #123  
Old 05-20-2019, 04:26 PM
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In high school, I think it was my sister's class that had some snafu happen that meant they couldn't get their yearbooks. They had to similarly circulate blank books for signatures and get an updated yearbook mailed out that fall.

It sucks, but it's not the end of the world.
  #124  
Old 05-20-2019, 04:39 PM
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I've reviewed what I wrote, and it seems to be fairly clear. I'm taking it that your inability to understand comes only from an unwillingness to engage with the ideas.
As a neutral third party, I read what you wrote, and while you may have thought you were being clear, you were not.

Quote:
As a migrant, in Aus, I'm saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I've never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any 'foreign' culture) was superior or definitive.
1. Yes the New Zealand shooter was from New Zealand. The symbol he chose to use was NOT a New Zealand symbol, it was an international symbol by the international group of white supremacists.

2. I am guessing your sentence fragment about social media and the internet and Marshall McLuhan is supposed to be some acknowledgement of the idea that the internet allows international sharing of ideas and symbology. Yet you seem to be dismissing it while acknowledging it.

3. I don't know that the "Hawaii Hello" means. Do you refer to the shaka sign, i.e. "hang loose"?

4. I guess you're trying to say that as a migrant, you encountered folks using the skaka sign, and had to accept they didn't mean it as a gang symbol. Um, yeah.


5. I don't know where the bit about being told your culture was inferior fits in to anything.


6. Banquet Bear directly engaged your salient point, that whatever the NZ shooter was doing should somehow not apply to the United States.
  #125  
Old 05-20-2019, 04:58 PM
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In this thread everyone spells out "Okay" or abbreviates(?) it "OK", but in Raymond Chandler's novels he spells it "okey".

Anyone know what that's about?
Works better with "dokey."

There was also Okeh Records. Allegedly, that name was for the label's founder, Otto K. E. Heinemann.
  #126  
Old 05-20-2019, 05:40 PM
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...
1. Yes the New Zealand shooter was from New Zealand. ..
Wasn't he Australian?

Last edited by bobot; 05-20-2019 at 05:40 PM.
  #127  
Old 05-20-2019, 07:31 PM
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Made it to the board meeting. A little late and still in progress.

The pictures included a selection of the diversity of the students in the school, Black, white, boys, girls, so on. Most pictures over shoulder some clearly playing the game that had become a fad in the school. None are believing there was any bad intent. Pictures taken in the Fall before hardly any of the general public was aware of the symbol being co-opted.

The concern is that it could without bad intent still cause offense and harm.

Board is discussing. The cost of reprinting would be I think they said $57K. Come out of a furniture budget.
  #128  
Old 05-20-2019, 07:47 PM
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Works better with "dokey."

There was also Okeh Records. Allegedly, that name was for the label's founder, Otto K. E. Heinemann.
Cool! I know about the label, never knew it's story.
  #129  
Old 05-20-2019, 07:55 PM
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Motion to reprint at a cost of $53,700 passed 4 to 2.

With a bunch of posturing.

Last edited by DSeid; 05-20-2019 at 07:55 PM.
  #130  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:23 PM
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How can we tell if we're playing into 4chan's hands or if we're calling out actual racists who are using the symbol unironically?

Do you have any reason to believe the students in question pictured in this yearbook are the former and not the latter?
I think this is precisely the problem. People see something that *could* be interpreted as a symbol of racism/hate/whatever and immediately assume the worst of the person using it.

Before we start calling people racist, shouldn't we, at the very least, wait until they say or do something unambiguously racist?

If we assume that everyone using the OK symbol is racist unless proven otherwise, sure you'll catch a few racists in that extremely widely-thrown net, but mostly you'll just catch people who are using the symbol in another way (or using it in the way you think, but sarcastically/ironically/jokingly). It's a very counterproductive variety of 'guilty until proven innocent'.

Surely we can all agree that the OK symbol has multiple meanings. Thus, in absence of other evidence, there's no reason to assume any one of those meanings (especially the most offensive of the meanings).
  #131  
Old 05-20-2019, 08:57 PM
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Stated logic during the board meeting was that lack of ill intent does not matter; harm can be caused without bad intent and it is still harm and that they must protect minority students from harm (and cost is immaterial). "We have a lot of work to do." was stated, condescendingly, several times, pointed at those who disagreed.
  #132  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:16 PM
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"We have a lot of work to do." was stated, condescendingly, several times, pointed at those who disagreed.
...they aren't wrong.
  #133  
Old 05-20-2019, 09:18 PM
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My yearbook was printed after graduation, so we could at least get some photos of the ceremony in there. They were passed at a "Yearbook Day" near the end of summer, before everyone went off to college. Seems to make a lot more sense than printing the yearbooks so early they can't even get photos of graduation or the prom in there. Not to mention plenty of time to look for kids giving the finger.
  #134  
Old 05-20-2019, 10:18 PM
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...they aren't wrong.
There is always a lot of work to be done. Board and community members can respectfully disagree about what that work is without gratuitous condescension.

FWIW from the just sent email:
Quote:
... The yearbook is being reprinted because it contained 18 photos of clubs or teams in which students of various races, ethnicities, genders, and grades made a hand gesture--an upside-down OK sign--that has different meanings. In some cases, it’s used in what is known as the circle game. However, the sign has more recently become associated with White nationalism. The photos in question, as well as all the other club team/photos in which students are striking poses and making gestures, will be replaced with the straight-forward group shots.

Use of the upside-down OK to mean White Power is an emerging issue. According to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), in 2017 members of the website 4chan came up with a hoax to falsely promote the gesture as a hate symbol. However, the ADL says, as of this year, at least some White supremacists are using the gesture as an actual symbol of White Power.Recent media events have heightened public awareness of the symbol’s newer implications. The shooter who killed 50 people at a mosque in Christchurch, New Zealand, flashed the sign in court on March 16, 2019. Wrigley Field has banned a White man who made the gesture behind a Black broadcaster at the Chicago Cubs game on May 7.

The “Tabula” photographs in question were taken of clubs or teams in mid-October. Those pages were reviewed and shipped to the printer in early December, before the gesture was widely known to have any association with white nationalism. I want to be clear that we are not making any presumptions about students’ intent in using the gesture.

Regardless of intent, however, there is a real and negative impact. Many students, not only our students of color, experience this gesture as a symbol of White supremacy. Potentially subjecting our students to this trauma is simply not acceptable.

Oak Park and River Forest High School is on the leading edge of addressing this issue. We are concerned that the gesture will become more closely associated with White supremacy in the future. Publishing the photos in question could not only harm students today but could subject students to potentially a lifetime of questions or penalty from colleges, employers, etc. ...
Not exactly how things were stated during the meeting but that's how things go.
  #135  
Old 05-20-2019, 11:21 PM
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The school board recently passed "a new racial equity policy. The aim is to create an environment where students’ academic achievement and social and emotional growth are no longer predictable by race, socioeconomic status, or other social factors ...
I'm not sure this is realistic for any school with low SES students that isn't highly selective in admittance. The roots of these inequalities often run deep.

I find the usage of the word "predictable" here troubling. I suppose it could be charitably interpreted from the students' perspective as an environment of expanded possibilities. To me it comes off revealing the perspective of adults who are tired of mostly knowing in advance who will struggle the most academically and behaviorally.
  #136  
Old 05-21-2019, 01:40 AM
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Regardless of intent, however, there is a real and negative impact. Many students, not only our students of color, experience this gesture as a symbol of White supremacy. Potentially subjecting our students to this trauma is simply not acceptable.
Humans are a superstitious lot with limited capacities for solving complex problems so I'm not surprised, though I hope no expert on trauma was consulted for this statement.
  #137  
Old 05-21-2019, 05:02 AM
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I have seen a similar issue where they took school class photos and some of the kids were secretly flashing gang signs which you had to recognize and sometimes use a magnifying glass to find but when found, they had to pull the entire photo.
  #138  
Old 05-21-2019, 07:40 AM
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Those of you who insist that the OK symbol surreptitiously used is purely an amusing attempt at riling up the overly-sensitive SJWs, might I suggest you take a look at a newly-emerging subreddit by the name of Frenworld?

Oh, sure, it's just a humorous cartoon clown frog... which says "Hi!" to a clown by the name of "Honkler" a lot. And who gets really sad when "nonfrens" with big noses and funny little hats get involved with international banking. You know, that sort of thing. Just harmless fun, designed merely to get a rise out of those easy-to-offend SJWs.

Whatever the origin of the surreptitious OK symbol was, it's now been co-opted by actual racists, and should be rightfully smacked down.

The white-power OK and, now, Frenworld, is just another way of saying "It's just a prank, bro!" whenever someone gets called out for being a bigot.
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  #139  
Old 05-21-2019, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
Those of you who insist that the OK symbol surreptitiously used is purely an amusing attempt at riling up the overly-sensitive ...
I don’t think there is anyone who has taken that position. There was discussion that it allegedly started out that way but agreement that whether that is true or not it is not now and in particular not for this instance the case.
  #140  
Old 05-21-2019, 09:18 AM
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I can't remember the last time I used an OK hand sign. Thumbs up always. Even in emojis.

Nor have I recalled it being extensively used any time in the recent past. If I saw a big resurgence of it's use, I might find that weird unless there was an obvious reason. I wouldn't assume nefarious, but maybe I'd give it a second look.
  #141  
Old 05-21-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Motion to reprint at a cost of $53,700 passed 4 to 2.

With a bunch of posturing.
Sounds like we now know the actual cost of fighting for social justice in this case. I hope the students and faculty don't mind some older furniture for a while.
  #142  
Old 05-21-2019, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bobot View Post
Wasn't he Australian?
Ack, good point, so change that to "1. Yes the New Zealand shooter was from in New Zealand..."
  #143  
Old 05-21-2019, 11:22 AM
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Anyone care to think that the teenager making the sign was just being an ignorant asshole? May not even know what the sign was supposed to mean other than it was offensive?

Teenagers are kind of good at that sort of thing .
  #144  
Old 05-21-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ohiomstr2 View Post
Anyone care to think that the teenager making the sign was just being an ignorant asshole? May not even know what the sign was supposed to mean other than it was offensive?



Teenagers are kind of good at that sort of thing .
Being an ignorant asshole has real world consequences, and the sooner they learn this lesson the better.
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  #145  
Old 05-21-2019, 12:49 PM
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The Anti-Defamation League (quoted in the OP's link and can be researched elsewhere) is making a lot more sense on this than some of you.
  #146  
Old 05-21-2019, 01:05 PM
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Intriguing.
  #147  
Old 05-21-2019, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Sounds like we now know the actual cost of fighting for social justice in this case. I hope the students and faculty don't mind some older furniture for a while.
I'm sure they mind old furniture less than white power symbols in the yearbook.
  #148  
Old 05-21-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Lightnin' View Post
Those of you who insist that the OK symbol surreptitiously used is purely an amusing attempt at riling up the overly-sensitive SJWs, might I suggest you take a look at a newly-emerging subreddit by the name of Frenworld?
Holy crap was that the dumbest, most idiotic thing I've seen in a long while (the subreddit, not your post).

How you can offer that as proof of anything beside there are a lot of morons on the Internet is beyond me.
  #149  
Old 05-21-2019, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
I'm sure they mind old furniture less than white power symbols in the yearbook.
I agree. That's rather obvious from their decision to purchase $53,700 of new yearbooks rather than $53,700 of new furniture.
  #150  
Old 05-21-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DrFidelius View Post
Being an ignorant asshole has real world consequences, and the sooner they learn this lesson the better.
And before you retort, kids, remember that you can't all be president.
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