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  #51  
Old 05-19-2020, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I'm guessing that within forty-eight hours, Trump will say he was telling a joke and the fake news media once again didn't understand his refined sense of humor.
Okay, one more post here b/c I admire you so much, Little Nemo.

You are dead wrong.

Last edited by Chief Pedant; 05-19-2020 at 06:30 AM.
  #52  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by madsircool View Post

If he is telling the truth is he putting his life at risk?
I don't believe he is taking it and is just saying it as a way to double-down on him hawking the drug. He only brought it up because he wants to appear he has some specialized knowledge and that he is somehow far more intelligent than anyone else. It is part of his symptoms because he has a narcissistic personality disorder:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20366662
  #53  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Pedant View Post
I'm not going to waste time over here in IMHO, but here are a few points to consider:

1. It's stupid to unilaterally decree Trump is lying. He obviously truly believes in hydroxychloroquine.

2. It is not somehow "illegal" for a physician to prescribe a medication off-label, unless you are talking about a situation like New York, where Cuomo issued an executive order (23 March) banning pharmacists from dispensing HCQ to patients not enrolled in a study.

3. There is plenty of pro-HCQ evidence for early use, and for prophylaxis. This is true in vitro, and in practical clinical experience.

4. SERMO intermittently summarizes what real-world clinicians around the world think of various therapeutic approaches to SARS CoV 2 infections. Something like a third of their physician interviewees prescribe HCQ for early use.

5. In the US, HCQ is widely prescribed in the setting of SARS CoV 2, and many physicians think it should be used early. Many consider it very safe. Safety profiles exist and it is so widely prescribed many physicians think it is unlikely we have somehow been missing these horrible cardiac side-effects across the hundreds of millions of doses already given.

6. For some comments from a cardiologist organizing one of the US prophylaxis studies, look up a Healio interview with William O'Neill at Henry Ford in Detroit.

7. India loves the stuff. The Indian Council of Medical Research has the official position that HCQ should be used ONLY for the exact setting in which Trump is taking it: prophylaxis of exposed persons. As compared with NY, India is kicking ass; about 1/700th the overall death rate, slums notwithstanding. It's not as if real-world experience is somehow not providing empiric evidence. Spain, France and Italy are finally getting their pandemic under control; all are now enthusiastic supporters of early HCQ use. UK barely uses it. Take a look at new case numbers from those nations.

8. I predict that between now and November, post-exposure prophylaxis using HCQ will be recommended by Fauci. Were I blue, I would not be too hasty ridiculing it now. It will be a bitter pill to swallow if a nutcase with orange hair that I despise turns out to win an election because the public decides he was "smarter" than Sanjay Gupta.

IMHO, of course. And it seems to me a bit petty to decide this should be in IMHO and not GD. Also IMHO.

I will not post again on this in IMHO as the lack of rigor with which comments are challenged is not worth my time.
There are no credible studies indicating that Hydroxychloroquine works as an antiviral and three recent large studies that so that it is totally and utterly ineffective.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....16.20065920v2

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/healt...udy/index.html

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2012410

Oh, and when I was looking for those links I found these, which were from two more studies.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...-against-covid

So that’s 5.

It didn’t work as antiviral fifty years ago when scientists started studying it as an antiviral and it doesn’t work now. There have been large studies that proven it was ineffective as prophylaxis against flu.

However, a lot of people that take it when they are sick with COVID will get better, because most people with COVID do get better regardless. Most people that take it as a prophylaxis won’t get COVID simply because most people don’t get COVID.

And I would like to point out something about the data in the 5 observational studies I linked to. If you look at the RAW numbers, you will see that the mortality and adverse event rates are DRASTICALLY higher in patients treated with Hydroxychloroquine.

The researchers made adjustments to that data to reflect the fact that the treated patients were, in general, a little sicker.

But as th actual data proving the ineffectiveness of this drug comes pouring in, the people that are desperate for a miracle are doubling down. I’ve seen the studies I’ve linked to above posted on social media with captions like “See, Trump was right! It works).

So, I’m sorry that I don’t have fascinating and rigorous data from YouTube videos and “things people are saying”. I only have actual studies and they’re boring,

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 05-19-2020 at 07:29 AM.
  #54  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:26 AM
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He is starting to self-implode here and the Dems should be very happy.
He was self-imploding half way through his campaign, being on tape saying "grab 'em by the pussy", attacking a gold star family, insulting McCain... the list of self imploding things he's said and done would fill a book.

When he said he could kill someone in cold blood on 5th avenue and still keep his voters... that was probably the only truly perceptive thing he's said. He understands the people who support him, and what terrible people they are. So... no I'm not happy that he's imploding, because the people who support him don't care how much of a dangerous moron he is.
  #55  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:52 AM
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Maybe this was brought up but Drs. in some cases give out sugar pills to make people happy when they insist on getting something. I don't think that is allowed any more or maybe it was never technically legal but it happened.
  #56  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:59 AM
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I've been to many, many Doctors my whole life. I've never been able to convince any of them to prescribe a drug I had researched and just knew I needed...
I have. With more than one doctor. I completely believe that a person enormously more powerful than I am can find a doctor to prescribe whatever he wants to take.

(I, of course, believe that all the drugs I have asked for were medically reasonable choices. But presumably Trump believes the same.)

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Originally Posted by Chief Pedant View Post
...
7. India loves the stuff. The Indian Council of Medical Research has the official position that HCQ should be used ONLY for the exact setting in which Trump is taking it: prophylaxis of exposed persons. As compared with NY, India is kicking ass; about 1/700th the overall death rate, slums notwithstanding. It's not as if real-world experience is somehow not providing empiric evidence. Spain, France and Italy are finally getting their pandemic under control; all are now enthusiastic supporters of early HCQ use. UK barely uses it. Take a look at new case numbers from those nations.
India only tracks about 20% of total deaths in normal times. I don't think we can conclude anything at all from numbers published by India. Not because they are lying, but because they don't know, and probably can't know.

A friend of a friend reported on India a couple of weeks ago. "I see more funeral pyres than normal. But not enormously more, although it's hard to tell. There aren't bodies stacked up on the street like there are in Equador." That's the level of data we are dealing with out of India.
  #57  
Old 05-19-2020, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Pedant View Post
7. India loves the stuff. The Indian Council of Medical Research has the official position that HCQ should be used ONLY for the exact setting in which Trump is taking it: prophylaxis of exposed persons. As compared with NY, India is kicking ass; about 1/700th the overall death rate, slums notwithstanding. It's not as if real-world experience is somehow not providing empiric evidence. Spain, France and Italy are finally getting their pandemic under control; all are now enthusiastic supporters of early HCQ use. UK barely uses it. Take a look at new case numbers from those nations.
Incorrect. Here is some reporting on how India's COVID-19 death toll, as reported, is incorrect and why.

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Originally Posted by Chief Pedant View Post
8. I predict that between now and November, post-exposure prophylaxis using HCQ will be recommended by Fauci. Were I blue, I would not be too hasty ridiculing it now. It will be a bitter pill to swallow if a nutcase with orange hair that I despise turns out to win an election because the public decides he was "smarter" than Sanjay Gupta.
Based on what qualifications and data do you base your prediction?

America is a country in which a large percentage of the population embraces ignorance and mistrusts science. That those who supported Trump will continue to support Trump is not an indictment of science.

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IMHO, of course. And it seems to me a bit petty to decide this should be in IMHO and not GD. Also IMHO.

I will not post again on this in IMHO as the lack of rigor with which comments are challenged is not worth my time.
Petty, did you say?


ETA: ninja's by puzzlegal
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 05-19-2020 at 08:04 AM.
  #58  
Old 05-19-2020, 08:03 AM
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After he said this, the White House doctor scrambled to put out a letter that IMO raises more questions that it answers.

....

Notice what it doesn't say:
-That the doctor spoke to the President about the President using the drug himself, as opposed to its use in treatment generally.
-That the doctor spoke to the President about the President using the drug as a prophylactic, rather than in the hypothetical event that he became ill.
-That the doctor prescribed the drug to the President.
-That the President is in fact taking the drug.
HIPAA. He can't divulge personal medical information.
  #59  
Old 05-19-2020, 08:46 AM
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Hopefully the torsade de pointes kicks in soon.
Has anyone else noticed how the ECG for this resembles his signature?
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  #60  
Old 05-19-2020, 08:57 AM
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I'm not going to waste time over here in IMHO, but here are a few points to consider:
I will concede that HCQ could be effective; the science is still not settled (though most recent studied lean towards HCQ *not* being effective (thanks Ann Hedonia)).

But let me throw a point back at you: do you think it's responsible for him to advocate for this drug at this time?
(And before you say he's not really "advocating" for this drug, you can't have it both ways: if he gets credit if the drug works then he gets blame if it does not). Should a president be gambling with the health of the population in this way, or should he leave such advice to doctors and scientists?

Quote:
I will not post again on this in IMHO as the lack of rigor with which comments are challenged is not worth my time.
LOL. It's only worth my time to say my piece, and not to hear any of the ways it might get challenged.

Last edited by Mijin; 05-19-2020 at 08:59 AM.
  #61  
Old 05-19-2020, 09:01 AM
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HIPAA. He can't divulge personal medical information.
The patient can authorize the doctor to divulge any piece of his medical history to anyone the patient chooses. HIPAA only prevents the doctor from doing it without patient consent.
  #62  
Old 05-19-2020, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Pedant View Post
I'm not going to waste time over here in IMHO, but here are a few points to consider:
...
I will not post again on this in IMHO as the lack of rigor with which comments are challenged is not worth my time.
Do not belittle threads as not worth your time. That's pretty much a textbook example of threadshitting.

This is an official warning for threadshitting. Do not do this again.
  #63  
Old 05-19-2020, 09:59 AM
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I hope he takes it in suppository form.
Is there enough room up his ass for both a suppository AND Mitch McConnell?
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  #64  
Old 05-19-2020, 10:04 AM
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He is not actually taking it, he just says he has been. This is just another one of his diversionary headline grabs.
Exactly.

A diversionary tactic to bury the Linick firing. Linick was investigating Pompeo regarding the Saudi arms deal (8.1Billion$). After both houses rejected it, Trump vetoed it. The Arms Export Control Act requires the president give congress 30 days before selling arms, This allows congress to way in on it. Trump using the emergency declaration was able to side step congress. Many of the weapons wouldn't be shipped in less than a year. So, it wan't an emergency.

And Pompeo was pushing for it.

Without Linick investigating it will all be swept under the carpet.

Great diversionary tactic.
  #65  
Old 05-19-2020, 10:13 AM
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Last edited by The Chao Goes Mu; 05-19-2020 at 10:15 AM. Reason: Answered upthread
  #66  
Old 05-19-2020, 10:16 AM
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you can't have it both ways: if he gets credit if the drug works then he gets blame if it does not).
This is the person (and administration) that has both told states to get their own ventilators and then when they did took credit for it.
Having his cake and eating it too is sorta his thing.

Not to say that he's right, just that his brain works that way. Come election time, he's absolutely going to take credit for the ventilators and the meds.
I can assure you, he'll talk about the amazing turn around he had getting test kits out to the masses, even though when he was asked why it was taking so long he very, very clearly said he doesn't take responsibility for it.
I understand that very few of his Rs are going to vote D if he makes it that far. Maybe the Rs can make sure he doesn't make it that far along.
  #67  
Old 05-19-2020, 02:33 PM
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An opinion piece in the Washington Post gives a very convincing trumpian reason for why trump is (sort of) claiming to be taking Hydroxy while not coming out and actually SAYING that he is for sure and having that claim backed up by his doctor.

Here is the reason:
Quote:
...Either way, the goal is to create the impression that thereís a miracle cure for the coronavirus, that Trump is heroically trying to bring it to the American people and that the scientists who are standing in the way should not be trusted...
Lord, where are the editors these days?? You have to plow through five pounds of verbiage to get to this, which I think makes a lot of sense (excuse the expression ) in trump-world-speak. The point is NOT whether he is taking it, not taking it, risking his life, lying, what-have-you.


He is following his standard playbook, namely, setting himself as a hero/white orange knight who is trying to do right by his people but the Big Bad Experts (who went to college, attended classes, and got legitimate degrees) won't let him! They're the Bad Guys! I'm the Good Guys! THEY won't let me help! It's THEIR fault that you don't have this life-saving potion/treatment/miracle drug (which I may or may not be taking).


It's not that he's taking it or not taking it-- it's that the straw men don't want him to help the great, suffering, unwashed (voting) masses who throng to his orange feet.


Ok, I have to go take a bath in bleach now. Getting inside his head makes me queasy.
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  #68  
Old 05-19-2020, 02:50 PM
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The stupid thing is that the president could have a HUGE impact on the path of the disease and the ability for states to reopen, get the economy going, and so on. Tell his supporters to wear a fucking mask when they're going to be around other people!!

He doesn't have to push this quackery! If he led the way and encouraged his idiotic supporters to wear masks, it would really be a game changer.
  #69  
Old 05-19-2020, 03:01 PM
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The stupid thing is that the president could have a HUGE impact on the path of the disease and the ability for states to reopen, get the economy going, and so on. Tell his supporters to wear a fucking mask when they're going to be around other people!!

He doesn't have to push this quackery! If he led the way and encouraged his idiotic supporters to wear masks, it would really be a game changer.
He is a contrarian and a fighter. He cannot get on the same side as the mainstream, sensible, level-headed people. He loves chaos. He sows chaos in order to (he imagines) take his rightful place as the smart, wise general at the center of the combat zone. There is no way on this earth that he can give out the same advice as Biden, Obama, and Pelosi.

He is mentally ill that way. If a building were on fire and it were surrounded by firefighters and police yelling "Get out! Run! You're going to die!" I believe he would not be able to either flee or tell others to flee. He might let someone else drag him to safety and then claim it was against his will-- maybe.

"It wasn't that bad! The fire wasn't going to get me! Joe Fire Chief dragged me out-- I refused, but he and sixteen guys threw ropes around me (which I chose not to break with my bare hands) and forced me out. I was never in any danger!"
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  #70  
Old 05-19-2020, 03:32 PM
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He loves chaos. He sows chaos in order to (he imagines) take his rightful place as the smart, wise general at the center of the combat zone.
For a while now, I've been thinking of him as a kind of oafish Petyr Baelish.
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  #71  
Old 05-19-2020, 04:24 PM
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There are no credible studies indicating that Hydroxychloroquine works as an antiviral and three recent large studies that so that it is totally and utterly ineffective.
But, wait, according to Trump's criminal campaign manager, it has been endorsed by the Assoc. of American Physicians & Surgeons. I mean that sounds like a pretty official group of level headed professionals. Certainly not a thinly masked conservative think tank that believes that HIV doesn't cause AIDS, vaccines are bad and doesn't recognize gun violence as a problem or anything.
  #72  
Old 05-19-2020, 05:04 PM
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His Dr is giving him tic-tacs.
Pirin tablets (as seen in The Birdcage: aspirin tablets with the first two letters scratched off).
  #73  
Old 05-19-2020, 05:30 PM
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I have. With more than one doctor. I completely believe that a person enormously more powerful than I am can find a doctor to prescribe whatever he wants to take.

(I, of course, believe that all the drugs I have asked for were medically reasonable choices. But presumably Trump believes the same.)


India only tracks about 20% of total deaths in normal times. I don't think we can conclude anything at all from numbers published by India. Not because they are lying, but because they don't know, and probably can't know.

A friend of a friend reported on India a couple of weeks ago. "I see more funeral pyres than normal. But not enormously more, although it's hard to tell. There aren't bodies stacked up on the street like there are in Equador." That's the level of data we are dealing with out of India.
There was a study conducted among rheumatology patients taking HCQ for their conditions.
It turns out they get COVID at the same frequency as rheumatology patients that donít take HCQ, and when they get it itís just as severe.

https://rheumnow.com/content/plaquen...ients-covid-19
  #74  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:10 PM
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There are no credible studies indicating that Hydroxychloroquine works as an antiviral and three recent large studies that so that it is totally and utterly ineffective.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....16.20065920v2

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/healt...udy/index.html

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2012410

Oh, and when I was looking for those links I found these, which were from two more studies.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...-against-covid

So thatís 5.

It didnít work as antiviral fifty years ago when scientists started studying it as an antiviral and it doesnít work now. There have been large studies that proven it was ineffective as prophylaxis against flu.

However, a lot of people that take it when they are sick with COVID will get better, because most people with COVID do get better regardless. Most people that take it as a prophylaxis wonít get COVID simply because most people donít get COVID.

And I would like to point out something about the data in the 5 observational studies I linked to. If you look at the RAW numbers, you will see that the mortality and adverse event rates are DRASTICALLY higher in patients treated with Hydroxychloroquine.

The researchers made adjustments to that data to reflect the fact that the treated patients were, in general, a little sicker.

But as th actual data proving the ineffectiveness of this drug comes pouring in, the people that are desperate for a miracle are doubling down. Iíve seen the studies Iíve linked to above posted on social media with captions like ďSee, Trump was right! It works).

So, Iím sorry that I donít have fascinating and rigorous data from YouTube videos and ďthings people are sayingĒ. I only have actual studies and theyíre boring,
Not a medical professional but not sure I understand your links. All your links are for people who already have Covid-19. Which report shows itís in-efficacy for use as an preventative?

And please donít portray Medical professionals as Ultra rational humans; they are not. Let me remind you of the following :

1. Flossing was scientifically found to have no positive effect. Yet both my dentist and my daughterís dentist keep recommending it.

2. Breast cancer screenings were full of false positives and yet they continued to do them until about recently when they raised the age for screenings.

3. You canít get research funding for cancer drugs unless you test them first on mice. It is long known that the ratio of WBC/RBC is reverse in mice compared to humans and mice never get cancer naturally and yet the scientific lobby continues.

So please donít preach that medical scientists are devoid of politics. They very much are NOT!!
  #75  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:12 PM
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Maybe he's eating those fake Oreos, Hydrox cookies.
Those are way better than Oreos, but I don't think they're made any more.
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Old 05-19-2020, 07:46 PM
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Okay, one more post here b/c I admire you so much, Little Nemo.
Admit it. The rest of you are jealous because Chief likes me best.
  #77  
Old 05-19-2020, 07:54 PM
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Admit it. The rest of you are jealous because Chief likes me best.
The Chief has ALWAYS liked you best.
  #78  
Old 05-19-2020, 08:04 PM
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Those are way better than Oreos, but I don't think they're made any more.
and they were first!
  #79  
Old 05-19-2020, 11:48 PM
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The stupid thing is that the president could have a HUGE impact on the path of the disease and the ability for states to reopen, get the economy going, and so on. Tell his supporters to wear a fucking mask when they're going to be around other people!!

He doesn't have to push this quackery! If he led the way and encouraged his idiotic supporters to wear masks, it would really be a game changer.
I'm not normally one to talk about the decline of the US / "end of an empire" but this really looks like an indicator of that kind of thing. Cases in many places around the world are in steep decline, including many areas of poverty. Country after country has been able to quickly adapt and follow the necessary measures. It's hard, but it's not complicated.

But it all breaks down in the US. Where a big chunk of the population doesn't believe in science. And have elected a guy who not only also does not believe/understand science, but doesn't care about the well-being of his citizens.
And I am not laying this only on Trump. Were a saner president in charge, you would still have tens of millions of people choosing to believe CTs, and rallying around some Trump or Alex Jones or whoever is pushing the nonsense.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:32 AM
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Maybe this was brought up but Drs. in some cases give out sugar pills to make people happy when they insist on getting something. I don't think that is allowed any more or maybe it was never technically legal but it happened.
It isn't now, except as a control arm of a clinical trial.

The drug doesn't prevent COVID; it's only been used experimentally to deal with some of the symptoms, and not successfully, either.

I also don't believe that he's really taking it. "Lots of front-line workers are using it" - yeah, if they have LUPUS, doofus.

(Rhyme unintentional)
  #81  
Old 05-20-2020, 03:43 AM
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I’m going to go against the prevailing opinion and state that I think Trump is taking the medication. He is a known germaphobe and I think he is absolutely terrified of getting the virus because it will make him look weak. He desperately needs to engage in magical thinking. He cannot deal with the uncertainty of the virus which is why he needs to believe that the VA study was an anti-Trump study, that the virus will resolve on its own and that there is medication that can protect him. That is also why he insists that everyone around him be tested daily. He cannot deal with more nebulous precautions or ones that he fears will expose his concern such as social distancing or wearing a mask. That is also why he constantly stresses how much better the numbers are than the worst projections. He can’t deal with a situation he cannot control. I absolutely believe that as soon as he heard his valet tested positive he ran to the doctor and demanded medication. It gives him a sense of control over the situation.
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:53 AM
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3. You canít get research funding for cancer drugs unless you test them first on mice. It is long known that the ratio of WBC/RBC is reverse in mice compared to humans and mice never get cancer naturally and yet the scientific lobby continues.
Mice never get cancer naturally? Well, maybe because they tend to be eaten by something else first. I really, really, really doubt that claim, can you back it up?
  #83  
Old 05-20-2020, 06:10 AM
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Iím going to go against the prevailing opinion and state that I think Trump is taking the medication. He is a known germaphobe and I think he is absolutely terrified of getting the virus because it will make him look weak. He desperately needs to engage in magical thinking. He cannot deal with the uncertainty of the virus which is why he needs to believe that the VA study was an anti-Trump study, that the virus will resolve on its own and that there is medication that can protect him. That is also why he insists that everyone around him be tested daily. He cannot deal with more nebulous precautions or ones that he fears will expose his concern such as social distancing or wearing a mask. That is also why he constantly stresses how much better the numbers are than the worst projections. He canít deal with a situation he cannot control. I absolutely believe that as soon as he heard his valet tested positive he ran to the doctor and demanded medication. It gives him a sense of control over the situation.
This is also my opinion. However, the fact that he chose HQ over other drugs with better hopes of being effective suggests that he forced the doctor's hand, so I do think what other Dopers are saying is also relevant. He has to be RIGHT about HQ.
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  #84  
Old 05-20-2020, 06:16 AM
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I'm not normally one to talk about the decline of the US / "end of an empire" but this really looks like an indicator of that kind of thing. Cases in many places around the world are in steep decline, including many areas of poverty. Country after country has been able to quickly adapt and follow the necessary measures. It's hard, but it's not complicated.

But it all breaks down in the US. Where a big chunk of the population doesn't believe in science. And have elected a guy who not only also does not believe/understand science, but doesn't care about the well-being of his citizens.
And I am not laying this only on Trump. Were a saner president in charge, you would still have tens of millions of people choosing to believe CTs, and rallying around some Trump or Alex Jones or whoever is pushing the nonsense.
True, but his position of authority helps. He made conspiracy theories more mainstream. I've definitely noticed the increase, likely due to it being more acceptable to admit. But that also means the ideas spread more.

The US mostly kept the antiscience confined to certain issues, with anyone else declared a loon. But now it's spreading further than I've ever seen due to a prominent rejection of facts themselves, which has been shown more in this administration than any other.

It's not solely Trump, but he is making it a lot worse.
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Old 05-20-2020, 06:25 AM
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Mice never get cancer naturally?
Oncomouse does. Although, to be fair, it's not exactly "natural" anymore.
  #86  
Old 05-20-2020, 06:52 AM
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Mice never get cancer naturally? Well, maybe because they tend to be eaten by something else first. I really, really, really doubt that claim, can you back it up?
From here : https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ncer_in_humans

Table 1 | Most common spontaneous cancers in humans and rodents

Breast carcinoma (Mice -> Yes, Humans -> Yes)
Lung carcinoma (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Prostate (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Colon (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Skin (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Stomach (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Liver (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Endometrial carcinomas (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Leukaemia/lymphoma (Mice -> Yes, Humans -> Yes)
Thyroid (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Bladder (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)

Over 95% of cancer treatments that go to Clinical Trials FAIL!!! after being so successful in mice. Medical scientists have lobbied the FDA to approve any Cancer drug that improves life expectancy by a mere 2.1 months at any cost to the quality of life. Imgine a pateint paying 30 thousand dollars to get 2.1 months more of bedridden life. Even then they keep failing but make more and more money. Cancer drugs are huge moneymakers.

In the last 40 years or so, only an extremely few Cancer drugs have come out. Cancer research has failed miserably to help people with Cancer.

Oh and by the way, they have bred lab mice who are very susceptible to cancers now.
  #87  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:00 AM
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And please donít portray Medical professionals as Ultra rational humans; they are not. Let me remind you of the following :

1. Flossing was scientifically found to have no positive effect. Yet both my dentist and my daughterís dentist keep recommending it.
Just a side note that this claim that "flossing was scientifically found to have no positive effect" is false. As this article notes,
Quote:
If dentistsóand maybe even your personal experienceósuggest that regular flossing keeps your mouth healthy, then why the news reports? Itís because long-term, large-scale, carefully controlled studies of flossing have been somewhat limited.

Researchers have found modest benefits from flossing in small clinical studies. For instance, an analysis of 12 well-controlled studies found that flossing plus toothbrushing reduced mild gum disease, or gingivitis, significantly better than toothbrushing alone. These same studies reported that flossing plus brushing might reduce plaque after 1 or 3 months better than just brushing.

But thereís no solid evidence that flossing can prevent periodontitis, a severe form of gum disease thatís the leading cause of tooth loss in adults. Periodontitis can arise if mild gum disease is left untreated. Plaque may then spread below the gum line, leading to breakdown of bone and other tissues that support your teeth. Periodontitis develops slowly over months or years. Most flossing studies to date, however, have examined only relatively short time periods.

Another research challenge is that large, real-world studies of flossing must rely on people accurately reporting their dental cleaning habits. And people tend to report what they think is the ďrightĒ answer when it comes to their health behaviorsówhether flossing, exercising, smoking, or eating. Thatís why well-controlled studies (where researchers closely monitor flossing or perform the flossing) tend to show that flossing is effective. But real-world studies result in weaker evidence.
In other words, the research findings that the health benefits of flossing are unproven (which is not the same as your exaggerated claim that they have actually been found not to exist) are based on inadequate data.

Cleaning between your teeth, as opposed to just brushing the inner and outer surfaces of the teeth, is definitely important for dental health. While it's true that flossing is not the only (and maybe not the optimal) way to perform interdental cleaning, it's better than doing no interdental cleaning.

So your dentist and your daughter's dentist are in fact being entirely rational when they continue to recommend flossing.
  #88  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:22 AM
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...
So your dentist and your daughter's dentist are in fact being entirely rational when they continue to recommend flossing....
No Thanks! is my reply to the chain store Car mechanic who pulls out my car's air filter and shows how dirty it is and needs to be changed (I follow the manual and know when it needs to be changed)

No Thanks is my reply to the Dentist too - (Our family has good oral hygiene and we don't floss)

In fact U.S. HEALTH DEPARTMENT SAYíS FLOSSING HAS NO BENEFITS

You see anyone can come up with a story like how instinctively flossing is good since it cleans between the teeth and all that. In the science I grew up with, this sort of stories used to be called human bias and hence the need for double blind studies.
  #89  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:40 AM
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https://www.bbb.org/us/ny/hauppauge/...stomer-reviews

According to the BBB, the American Health Council is a fraud.
  #90  
Old 05-20-2020, 08:11 AM
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https://www.bbb.org/us/ny/hauppauge/...stomer-reviews

According to the BBB, the American Health Council is a fraud.
NM - I will start a new thread in GD.
  #91  
Old 05-20-2020, 08:18 AM
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...
In fact U.S. HEALTH DEPARTMENT SAYíS FLOSSING HAS NO BENEFITS

You see anyone can come up with a story like how instinctively flossing is good since it cleans between the teeth and all that. In the science I grew up with, this sort of stories used to be called human bias and hence the need for double blind studies.
A website that can't use an apostrophe correctly has no credibility with me. Or for that matter, a poster who should have inserted "[sic]" after quoting the mistake. Moving on.
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Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
https://www.bbb.org/us/ny/hauppauge/...stomer-reviews

According to the BBB, the American Health Council is a fraud.
Makes sense to me. Illiteracy is a giveaway.
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  #92  
Old 05-20-2020, 09:00 AM
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A website that can't use an apostrophe correctly has no credibility with me. Or for that matter, a poster who should have inserted "[sic]" after quoting the mistake. Moving on. Makes sense to me. Illiteracy is a giveaway.
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Originally Posted by madsircool
https://www.bbb.org/us/ny/hauppauge/...stomer-reviews

According to the BBB, the American Health Council is a fraud.
ThelmaLou and madsircool - Thanks for the diversion with grammar and user reviews. Could you back up your claims with published research that the claims in the cite are wrong ?
  #93  
Old 05-20-2020, 09:04 AM
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Iím going to go against the prevailing opinion and state that I think Trump is taking the medication. He is a known germaphobe and I think he is absolutely terrified of getting the virus because it will make him look weak. He desperately needs to engage in magical thinking. He cannot deal with the uncertainty of the virus which is why he needs to believe that the VA study was an anti-Trump study, that the virus will resolve on its own and that there is medication that can protect him. That is also why he insists that everyone around him be tested daily. He cannot deal with more nebulous precautions or ones that he fears will expose his concern such as social distancing or wearing a mask. That is also why he constantly stresses how much better the numbers are than the worst projections. He canít deal with a situation he cannot control. I absolutely believe that as soon as he heard his valet tested positive he ran to the doctor and demanded medication. It gives him a sense of control over the situation.
I absolutely agree as well.

I also know that the world contains a lot of doctors who will prescribe anything for money. Who do you think works for those websites that let you order medication without a prescription, if you fill out a kinda detailed questionnaire, on which you are free to lie, and their in-house doc provides a prescription?
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Old 05-20-2020, 09:09 AM
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Not a medical professional but not sure I understand your links. All your links are for people who already have Covid-19. Which report shows it’s in-efficacy for use as an preventative?

And please don’t portray Medical professionals as Ultra rational humans; they are not. Let me remind you of the following :

1. Flossing was scientifically found to have no positive effect. Yet both my dentist and my daughter’s dentist keep recommending it.

2. Breast cancer screenings were full of false positives and yet they continued to do them until about recently when they raised the age for screenings.

3. You can’t get research funding for cancer drugs unless you test them first on mice. It is long known that the ratio of WBC/RBC is reverse in mice compared to humans and mice never get cancer naturally and yet the scientific lobby continues.

So please don’t preach that medical scientists are devoid of politics. They very much are NOT!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by am77494 View Post
From here : https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ncer_in_humans

Table 1 | Most common spontaneous cancers in humans and rodents

Breast carcinoma (Mice -> Yes, Humans -> Yes)
Lung carcinoma (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Prostate (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Colon (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Skin (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Stomach (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Liver (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Endometrial carcinomas (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Leukaemia/lymphoma (Mice -> Yes, Humans -> Yes)
Thyroid (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)
Bladder (Mice -> No, Humans -> Yes)

Over 95% of cancer treatments that go to Clinical Trials FAIL!!! after being so successful in mice. Medical scientists have lobbied the FDA to approve any Cancer drug that improves life expectancy by a mere 2.1 months at any cost to the quality of life. Imgine a pateint paying 30 thousand dollars to get 2.1 months more of bedridden life. Even then they keep failing but make more and more money. Cancer drugs are huge moneymakers.

In the last 40 years or so, only an extremely few Cancer drugs have come out. Cancer research has failed miserably to help people with Cancer.

Oh and by the way, they have bred lab mice who are very susceptible to cancers now.
Not sure I get your point.
I did not post the results of any studies of HCQ as a preventative for COVID because they’re aren’t any completed ones that I’m aware of.
The studies on sick patients go towards disproving its clinical effectiveness as an anti-viral.
I did post the results of a study conducted on a pool of patients who take HCQ for other conditions. That study showed that those people get COVID at the same rate and severity as untreated people.

I’m not sure where you’re going with you point about cancer trials and why you seem to think it’s some big GOTCHA!
I know full well that 95% of cancer trials fail. I know that every one of those trials had a scientific theory behind it and in vitro and animal tests that showed promise. I also know that a treatment is very different from a cure, and even the treatments that pass clinincal trials usually don’t do more than add a few weeks to the average life expectancy.

I also know that for every failed cancer trial, there are dozens of patients who misinterpreted preliminary evidence and convinced themselves that they had found the thing that WORKED. I also know that this syndrome is way worse when the prospective treatment has received media coverage.

And this is exactly what I’ve seen happening with HCQ.

I’m also not sure why you think I’m claiming medical science isn’t politicized. Of course it is, although the #HCQ debacle is the worst case of politicization that I’ve ever seen. Usually the politics are in the regions where medical science connects with other issues, like abortion and vaccination, although there is a right wing tendency to believe things like “overregulation keeps valuable drugs off the market”.

I’m not going to go into the flossing stuff, except to say that I think Vitamin C might have been a better example. If someone opens a GD thread I may take it there.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 05-20-2020 at 09:13 AM.
  #95  
Old 05-20-2020, 09:13 AM
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Iím still not sure whether to believe that heís taking it. Have you watched the video? He sounds like a child making up a lie on the spot.
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  #96  
Old 05-20-2020, 09:39 AM
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ThelmaLou and madsircool - Thanks for the diversion with grammar and user reviews. Could you back up your claims with published research that the claims in the cite are wrong ?
Nope. Anything else?
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  #97  
Old 05-20-2020, 10:27 AM
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Once they are done with him they can finally move onto human trials.
  #98  
Old 05-20-2020, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by am77494
"U.S. HEALTH DEPARTMENT SAYíS FLOSSING HAS NO BENEFITS"
Once again, you're confused about the difference between "This research does not adequately show that the claimed benefits exist" and "This research definitively shows that the claimed benefits do not exist".

What this flossing kerfuffle from August 2016 was all about was the removal of standard recommendations about flossing in the current USDA/HHS Dietary Guidelines, due to lack of study results definitively demonstrating that flossing helps prevent dental caries.

That is not at all the same thing as making a positive claim that "flossing has no benefits", and you really need to stop getting the two mixed up. You are not creating a good impression of your ability to credibly evaluate scientific claims.
  #99  
Old 05-20-2020, 11:58 AM
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Mice never get cancer naturally? Well, maybe because they tend to be eaten by something else first. I really, really, really doubt that claim, can you back it up?
I do work in this space. For many years. And his/her statement is nonsense.
  #100  
Old 05-20-2020, 01:35 PM
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Iím going to go against the prevailing opinion and state that I think Trump is taking the medication. He is a known germaphobe and I think he is absolutely terrified of getting the virus because it will make him look weak. He desperately needs to engage in magical thinking. He cannot deal with the uncertainty of the virus which is why he needs to believe that the VA study was an anti-Trump study, that the virus will resolve on its own and that there is medication that can protect him. That is also why he insists that everyone around him be tested daily. He cannot deal with more nebulous precautions or ones that he fears will expose his concern such as social distancing or wearing a mask. That is also why he constantly stresses how much better the numbers are than the worst projections. He canít deal with a situation he cannot control. I absolutely believe that as soon as he heard his valet tested positive he ran to the doctor and demanded medication. It gives him a sense of control over the situation.
This is what i believe, too. Thanks for stating it clearly.
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