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Old 01-10-2019, 04:39 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Has the government been hiding information about a vaccine-autism link?

THIS article says yes. (warning, takes about 10 minutes)

In short, it seems that in 2007 or so in the vaccine injury court, a special court set up by the US government to protect the pharma industry from lawsuits, a bunch of lawsuits against the vaccine industry were thrown out based on the expert witness of researcher and scientist Dr. Zimmerman. Thing was Zimmerman actually HAD seen that vaccines COULD cause autism in CERTAIN cases. But that information was kept hidden and Zimmerman fired. The article also says that big Pharma money is so strong on capital hill that debate on the topic is quickly stopped.


Also note: the people in this discussion are not anti-vaccine. They still support their benefits and getting flu shots.


Its an interesting discussion and I was wondering what this board thought.
  #2  
Old 01-10-2019, 04:45 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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Rebuttal.

Another rebuttal
.

Two seconds on Google.
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Old 01-10-2019, 04:46 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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No. It's nonsense and the people who push it out there kill children through their actions.

The CDC doesn't think they do.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html

The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia doesn't think they do.
https://www.chop.edu/centers-program...accines-autism

The journal 'Vaccine' doesn't think so.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...64410X14006367

Science-based Medicine doesn't think so.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ref...es-and-autism/

The National Center for Biotechnology Information doesn't think so
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/

So I repeat, the people who persist in this argument kill children. They cause miscarriages. The put people at risk. All for the belief - as Isaac Asimov put it - that their ignorance is the equivalent of someone else's knowledge.
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Old 01-10-2019, 05:05 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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This is a heaping helping of nothing, brought to you by longtime antivax conspiracy theorists (in particular, Sharyl "The Gummint Hacked My Computer!" Atkisson and RFK Jr.).

"...this new “report” is nothing new. Attkisson’s been flogging the Hannah Poling case ever since it hit the news. So it’s not surprising that she’d do it again. As much as she and RFK Jr. are trying to paint this as some horrific conspiracy to hide the evidence that vaccines cause autism and deny the petitioners of the Autism Omnibus their just compensation, there’s really even less here than there is in the CDC whistleblower conspiracy theory, which isn’t much. All we have is one witness who, a decade after Autism Omnibus, became somehow convinced that the government lawyers had done him wrong by deciding they didn’t want him to testify and whose importance to the case was nowhere near as critical as it is being portrayed by RFK Jr. and Sharyl Attkisson. Basically, through the Hannah Poling case, he came to believe (erroneously) that mitochondrial disease + vaccines = autism and appears to want vindication, to achieve which he’s now going public with his grievance. In the end, it’s really pathetic."

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2019...isson-is-back/

While antivaxers perpetually keep flogging the same old nonsense about vaccine "toxins", shots "overwhelming" children's immune systems and causing laundry lists of unrelated ailments (based on anecdotes and mommy intuition), they especially love faux conspiracies, seeing that they're convinced that there's an unholy alliance between physicians, other health care workers, researchers, health agencies, Big Pharma, the CDC, the FDA, and quite probably the TVA and CIA to conceal Da Troof about vaccines, because of course all of these millions of people are in it for the money and don't have any kids themselves.

By the way, this Dr. Zimmerman who figures in the latest conspiracy silliness is one of a small minority of docs who think there's a potential link between mitochondrial disorders (rare genetically-based syndromes) and regressive autism developing after vaccination. However Zimmerman is just one of myriad researchers/experts who've testified before the vaccine court, and others overwhelmingly do not agree with him. Plus (and you won't hear antivaxers admit this), Zimmerman is on record defending the value of immunization and advising that it's better even for kids with mitochondrial disorders to get DTaP vaccine than risk serious damage caused by pertussis (whooping cough), the "P" in DTaP.

Exapno Mapcase's second link is to a blog written by an extreme antivaxer (Jake Crosby), whose enmity for Zimmerman apparently stems from his belief that Zimmerman didn't go nearly far enough to blame autism on vaccines, and thus isn't worth antivaxers' efforts to defend or exploit him. I recommend taking anything Crosby says with a whole mine full of salt, and disinfecting your computer after reading his articles.

- Jackmannii, who makes untold millions from his Pharma masters as a message board shill for vaccination.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 01-10-2019 at 05:09 PM.
  #5  
Old 01-10-2019, 05:16 PM
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While I only skimmed, I note that the article does not mention:

1) A mechanism for operation. I.e., how they're suggesting that vaccines can cause autism to occur.
2) A large scale study that tests and confirms the hypothesis.
3) Replications of the results of the study.

But let's say that that's not important because...well, reasons...and just talk about the general approach of the article and how it works as proof. To do that, let's consider a different case, which could result in a similar article being written on a different topic.

Let's say, for example, that the Republican party hires an economist to write a new taxation bill. The economist is a brilliant guy who does good math, and whose economical arguments are very compelling. But, as they start working with him, they come to realize that where he's really strong on tax and business, he's a crank in other areas and thinks, for example, that the government is being run by a secret cabal organized under the Freemasons.

Not wanting to have the new tax bill shot down over the crank ideas of this one guy, they pressure him to not mention any of his ideas about the Freemasons to anyone and they suppress emails and other materials to ensure that the only thing being discussed around the tax bill are the economics of the tax bill.

After the bill passes and the guy has been released from his deal with the party, the guy goes to some no-name, crank news site and explains to them how the government worked to suppress him, proving that his ideas about the secret cabal are true. And, being a crank news site, they publish his tale and present it in the same manner: Suppression = Truth

But does suppression = truth? Or is it simply that people are embarrassed by and for the cranks around them, and sometimes work to shield themselves from the crank or to shield the crank for his own good?

I would suggest that suppression is not, innately, a proof of truth. And, I would further argue, more things are suppressed because they are embarrassing than because there is an elaborate conspiracy - by people who have chosen to go into a career helping people to live healthier, longer lives - to mentally impair children, in bulk, for a quick buck.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-10-2019 at 05:20 PM.
  #6  
Old 01-10-2019, 05:53 PM
jackdavinci jackdavinci is offline
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
, because of course all of these millions of people are in it for the money and don't have any kids themselves.

- Jackmannii, who makes untold millions from his Pharma masters as a message board shill for vaccination.
I'm not an anti vaxxer, but I am a little concerned by an odd and disturbing trend I see, which is people repeatedly being so eager to prove themselves as the opposite of cranks that they forget that the opposite of unreasonable is reasonable, not unreasonab!e in the opposite direction. Just because someone has come to a crazy conclusion or a since disproven one doesnt mean that 1) every single thing they ever believed is proof that the extreme opposite is true, both in conclusions and in premises.

It leads to some very odd paradoxes in thinking. While careful consideration of the issue will show that vaccinations aren't linked to autism, and are a net benefit for society, what it doesn't show is that vaccinations are a panacea with zero complications or that questioning authority is automatically paranoia.

After all, the whole autism scare happened because of a trusted authority lying for financial benefit. While this discovery and further research makes it fairly reasonable to disregard a link between vaccines and autism, it is ridiculous to use it as evidence for the idea that industries with an inherent financial drive are incorruptible.

That's not only absurd, there's abundant counter examples. A whole government agency had to be created to combat it (FDA). Even in the pure science of academic research where you would think there would be less incentive for corruption and more idealism, there's a crisis in reproducibility of results.

I'm sure there are no end of tobacoo industry executives with children who nontheless continue to promote the bottom line.

So yes, it's great to put a bed to the particular conclusions of certain groups that happen to be probably false, but it's just as harmful to go to the opposite extreme by assuming every idea remotely associated with those things is automatically true in the extreme opposite, and that this can be shown not through reasonable evidence and arguments, but through dismissive sarcasm and virtue signaling towards a whole class of people.
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:32 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Originally Posted by jackdavinci
While careful consideration of the issue will show that vaccinations aren't linked to autism, and are a net benefit for society, what it doesn't show is that vaccinations are a panacea with zero complications or that questioning authority is automatically paranoia.
On the other hand, that giant straw man of yours is a fire hazard. If you can find an example of me (or pro-immunization advocates in general) stating that vaccines have "zero" complications, or that questioning "authority" (i.e. the medical profession, the scientific community, the CDC etc.) automatically equates to paranoia, I will buy you a kewpie doll (or a McD Happy Meal).
Quote:
After all, the whole autism scare happened because of a trusted authority lying for financial benefit.
If you mean Andrew Wakefield (the discredited researcher who engaged in sloppy and ultimately fraudulent research postulating an MMR-autism link while concealing huge payments from a law group interested in suing vaccine makers), then I agree with you.
Quote:
While this discovery and further research makes it fairly reasonable to disregard a link between vaccines and autism, it is ridiculous to use it as evidence for the idea that industries with an inherent financial drive are incorruptible.
I'm perfectly willing to hear evidence that a drug company might have engaged in malfeasance (there are numerous examples of such), the key word is evidence - we need to see it, not assume that Pharma Bad, so vaccines are automatically deeply suspect (with that logic, we should also be reluctant to use insulin if diabetic,not allow the administration of clot-busting drugs if we are developing ischemic strokes, refuse antibiotics for sepsis and so on).
And it's not just industry that we must view as horribly corrupt - there's all the physicians, other health care workers, researchers, government workers (didn't I already mention these fellow travelers?), and let's not forget the parents of autistic children and organizations like Autism Speaks who don't buy into the vaccine-autism conspiracy...wow, the conspiracy just keeps getting wider and deeper.
Quote:
there's abundant counter examples. A whole government agency had to be created to combat it (FDA).
The FDA is also Evil in the antivax universe, just not as evil as the CDC.
Quote:
Even in the pure science of academic research where you would think there would be less incentive for corruption and more idealism, there's a crisis in reproducibility of results.
There's such a huge body of research validating vaccine safety and efficacy, you'd have to posit an incredibly vast conspiracy to account for it all. Hmmm.....
Quote:
I'm sure there are no end of tobacoo industry executives with children who nontheless continue to promote the bottom line.
Oo, Big Tobacco too! Didja know there used to be ads back in the '40s with doctors praising cigarettes? That oughta tell you something!*

*a possible example of "dismissive sarcasm". Sorry about that.
  #8  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:41 PM
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So this is the truth about vaccine court: many of the winners have been genetically tested and one commonality has arisen. They all have Dravet syndrome which is a severe incurable form of epilepsy that has autism like features. Eventually these kids were going to be symptomatic as babies or toddlers, but getting a vaccine can cause symptoms to appear slightly sooner if they spike a fever. Had they never been vaccinated it still would have been a matter of weeks to months before an illness caused a fever to spur their first convulsions.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:54 PM
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I'm sorry, Urbanredneck, but the way the article describes this alleged link is horseshit.

This isn't how links between drugs and adverse events are determined. It's just not. It's done through extensive study and the work of a team of people, including epidemioloists, statisticians, pgorammers, and a shitload of physicians, pharmacoviligance experts, and God knows who else. Only in movies does one guy say "I've found it!"

Look, if you don't believe me, read that article more carefully. Zimmerman claims vaccines can cause autism. But... how does he know that? Does he have a control group? What's his evidence? Where is it?

The author of this article

1. Has absolutely no idea how pharmacovigilance works. None whatsoever.
2. Has an axe to grind, and
3. Is deliberately deceptive.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:53 PM
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So this is the truth about vaccine court...
Linky McLinkface for further reading?
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:04 PM
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Its an interesting discussion and I was wondering what this board thought.
My thought is that it's not an interesting discussion.
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
THIS article says yes. (warning, takes about 10 minutes)

In short, it seems that in 2007 or so in the vaccine injury court, a special court set up by the US government to protect the pharma industry from lawsuits, a bunch of lawsuits against the vaccine industry were thrown out based on the expert witness of researcher and scientist Dr. Zimmerman. Thing was Zimmerman actually HAD seen that vaccines COULD cause autism in CERTAIN cases. But that information was kept hidden and Zimmerman fired. The article also says that big Pharma money is so strong on capital hill that debate on the topic is quickly stopped.


Also note: the people in this discussion are not anti-vaccine. They still support their benefits and getting flu shots.


Its an interesting discussion and I was wondering what this board thought.
Are you serious with this? Do you just find a web site and then think that whatever it says is true? Do you do any research or critical thinking on your own? With little effort, I could find web sites that say Bigfoot is real, or mermaids are real, or the Earth is flat, or 9-11 was committed by the US government. Please, PLEASE read about the topic before posting stupid, time-wasting topics here. Jesus.
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:21 PM
elfkin477 elfkin477 is offline
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Linky McLinkface for further reading?
For some light reading

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...74442210701071
https://vaxopedia.org/tag/national-v...ation-program/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4657773/
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:26 PM
elfkin477 elfkin477 is offline
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Linky McLinkface for further reading?
For some light reading
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...25505011002605

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...74442210701071
https://vaxopedia.org/tag/national-v...ation-program/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4657773/
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:57 PM
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Ta much!
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:11 AM
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To that I have to add this article from Vaxopedia that shows that even Dr. Andrew Zimmerman does not agree with the anti-vaccination narrative:

https://vaxopedia.org/2018/10/18/all...m-proceedings/
Quote:
While we should all care about fraud in our court system, we should all also care about folks who push misinformation about vaccines and try to scare parents away from vaccinating and protecting their kids, especially when they use autistic kids to do it.

Don’t believe them.

It is telling that Dr. Zimmerman, the hero in this story, discredits the other heroes of the anti-vaccine movement, from the Geiers to Andrew Wakefield.

Quote:
“I do think that — that there was much information — misinformation brought about by Dr. Wakefield and it’s — this has set the field back. I think that — that we — we have worked very hard to try to reassure the public and I agree with doing that because I am very supportive of vaccinations, immunizations in general.”

Andrew Zimmerman
While Dr. Zimmerman truly believes that future research might find a way to identify a very small subset of kids with mitochondrial disorders that worsen after they get their vaccines (or infections or other types of inflammation), this doesn’t apply to the great majority of autistic kids or even the great majority of kids with regressive autism.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
THIS article says yes. (warning, takes about 10 minutes)

In short, it seems that in 2007 or so in the vaccine injury court, a special court set up by the US government to protect the pharma industry from lawsuits, a bunch of lawsuits against the vaccine industry were thrown out based on the expert witness of researcher and scientist Dr. Zimmerman. Thing was Zimmerman actually HAD seen that vaccines COULD cause autism in CERTAIN cases. But that information was kept hidden and Zimmerman fired. The article also says that big Pharma money is so strong on capital hill that debate on the topic is quickly stopped.


Also note: the people in this discussion are not anti-vaccine. They still support their benefits and getting flu shots.


Its an interesting discussion and I was wondering what this board thought.
If you want to read about this in depth, my wife just published a book on the vaccine debate (from ABC Clio) and a year ago published a more technical book (though still for the general public) on vaccines in general. PM me for details.
It was not paid for by Big Pharma. I wish - wouldn't hurt to have the money.

No where in the article is a discussion of how Zimmerman came to this conclusion. Did he do a study? Was it published? Or was it anecdotal?
The thing about the supposed autism link is this. Anti-vaxxers have come up with several supposed mechanisms for causing autism, like mercury. Even if mercury had been an issue, which it wasn't, it was removed from most vaccines just in case. The autism rate was not affected at all.
Now it seems that the onset of autism happens about the time that vaccines are given, which might explain the apparent correlation. But studies of populations not getting vaccines show the same autism rate (or even higher) than those getting vaccinate.
But I'm not an expert, my wife is, so if you care you might either get the book or ask your library to get it. It's in over 100 libraries worldwide already.
  #18  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:24 AM
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How could the US government do that?

Vaccines are used by pretty much every nation on earth. All the first world ones, the nations with large national health care systems etc. The ones with large pharmaceutical companies and the ones without any. How on earth could the US government conceal something like that from the research and statistics of all other nations ?
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Also note: the people in this discussion are not anti-vaccine. They still support their benefits and getting flu shots.


Its an interesting discussion and I was wondering what this board thought.
Vaccines do not cause autism. There is no link. There have been numerous massive large-scale international studies examining this. There is nothing to cover up. I think this discussion is as interesting as a discussion on whether the earth is flat, and that you should seriously spend some time thinking about how you even come up with sources this bad.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 01-11-2019 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:49 AM
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Now it seems that the onset of autism happens about the time that vaccines are given, which might explain the apparent correlation.
It doesn't really, though, at least not in most kids. Something like 70-80% of kids who have autism don't regress like it's often claimed they all do. Instead, from watching videos of the kids between 6 and 12 months old, and interviewing people who spent a lot of time with the children during infancy (other than the parents) it's fairly clear that the majority of kids already show symptoms long before a lot of parent notice and/or admit it to themselves.

A great many kids on the spectrum are firstborns, so their parents lack a basis of comparison which makes it harder to realize that their kids are different than other babies until they begin to fail major language milestones like using sentences in toddlerhood. So what happens is the little kid who is already a bit different (doesn't smile at people, shies away from eye-contact, doesn't hold out their arms to be picked up) gets their vaccines at an age when people begin having more social expectations of them.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:09 AM
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Please, please, DON’T click on any of his Autism/Vaccine links.

He’s using our board to drive traffic to these shitty bad science sites. (Possibly for profit! He’s been that successful working his routine here!) He’s done this ‘just asking’ silliness numerous times in regards to this topic. He doesn’t participate and occassionslly even admits he’s not interested in engaging or changing minds.

Not sure why this board doesn’t step in to stop this behaviour. Especially considering the whole ‘fighting ignorance’ thing. Exactly how many times can he claim he’s ‘just asking’, before this routine borders on trolling, you have to wonder.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:58 AM
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So this is the truth about vaccine court: many of the winners have been genetically tested and one commonality has arisen. They all have Dravet syndrome which is a severe incurable form of epilepsy that has autism like features. Eventually these kids were going to be symptomatic as babies or toddlers, but getting a vaccine can cause symptoms to appear slightly sooner if they spike a fever. Had they never been vaccinated it still would have been a matter of weeks to months before an illness caused a fever to spur their first convulsions.
I have not seen anything to indicate that a large percentage, much less all of the vaccine court "winners" had Dravet syndrome and were thus destined to develop a seizure disorder +/- autism-like symptoms. The provided links do not show that.

Whether or not vaccination might trigger earlier onset of this syndrome by producing mild fevers leading to febrile seizure is another matter, and brings up an important point relative to mitochondrial disorders. Antivaxers have jumped on the idea (not documented) that all or most autistic kids have mitochondrial disease and thus vaccination causes their autism. If a mild antigenic stimulus is enough to throw such children into an autistic state, then routine infections (anything from common colds and ear infections on through vaccine-preventable diseases like measles which feature a much greater antigenic load than mere vaccination) should be and are (according to experts in the area) a considerably greater risk. Thus we have Dr. Zimmerman recommending DTaP vaccination for childre with mitochondrial disease, since active infection (i.e. with pertussis) is a significant risk factor in these children for neurodevelopmental disorders.

*kids are bombarded with antigens from various sources including bacteria and viruses on a constant basis through normal daily living. The antigenic stimulus from vaccination is a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 01-11-2019 at 09:00 AM.
  #23  
Old 01-11-2019, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
Please, please, DON’T click on any of his Autism/Vaccine links.

He’s using our board to drive traffic to these shitty bad science sites. (Possibly for profit! He’s been that successful working his routine here!) He’s done this ‘just asking’ silliness numerous times in regards to this topic. He doesn’t participate and occassionslly even admits he’s not interested in engaging or changing minds.

Not sure why this board doesn’t step in to stop this behaviour. Especially considering the whole ‘fighting ignorance’ thing. Exactly how many times can he claim he’s ‘just asking’, before this routine borders on trolling, you have to wonder.
Please do not threadshit. I'll continue this conversation by PM.

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Old 01-11-2019, 11:46 AM
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General rule of thumb.

One scientist says 'Yeah'.
Fifty scientists say 'No way and here's why'.

More often than not, the fifty are right and the one is a nutjob.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:53 AM
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Also note: the people in this discussion are not anti-vaccine. They still support their benefits and getting flu shots.
I should emphasize that on the contrary, virtually everyone interviewed or referenced in Urbanredneck's link is deeply antivaccine and/or playing footsie with antivaxers, their claims of being "pro-vaccine" notwithstanding.

RFK Jr. has characterized himself as being "fiercely" pro-vaccine, but he has a very long history of promoting antivax nonsense, going at least as far back as a now-retracted Salon article alleging a vaccine conspiracy by regulators. More recently he authored (or just edited, it's hard to tell) a book alleging horrific dangers of thimerosal preservative in vaccines, despite the fact that thimerosal was removed from virtually all childhood vaccines back in 2001 and never has been found to cause health problems anyway.

Sharyl Atkisson was alluded to earlier as an antivaxer and conspiracy theorist.

Congressmen Dan Burton and Bill Posey have a history of shenanigans promoting antivax ideology.

And on and on.

Pro tip: when you see someone insisting they're pro-vaccine (or "pro-safe vaccine) but they continually push debunked antivax nonsense and stage wholesale attacks on immunization, they're actually antivaccine but can't bear to be honest and admit it.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 01-11-2019 at 11:56 AM.
  #26  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:04 PM
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Pro tip: when you see someone insisting they're pro-vaccine (or "pro-safe vaccine") but they continually push debunked antivax nonsense and stage wholesale attacks on immunization, they're actually antivaccine but can't bear to be honest and admit it.
"Pro-safe vaccine" is to antivax what "intelligent design" is to creationism. Exactly the same thing with marketing spin.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:54 PM
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Dear OP,

There is no credible evidence that vaccinations cause autism. But there is at least some decent evidence that the radiation from 5G cell towers causes brain cancer and Roundup is a carcinogen. Both matters are open questions, but they're not as totally off the wall as any vaccines and autism link which came from one discredited study.

https://www.mobilesafety.com.au/brai...5g-technology/

Glyphosate toxicity and carcinogenicity: a review of the scientific basis of the European Union assessment and its differences with IARC
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:29 PM
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Dear OP,

There is no credible evidence that vaccinations cause autism. But there is at least some decent evidence that the radiation from 5G cell towers causes brain cancer and Roundup is a carcinogen. Both matters are open questions, but they're not as totally off the wall as any vaccines and autism link which came from one discredited study.

https://www.mobilesafety.com.au/brai...5g-technology/

Glyphosate toxicity and carcinogenicity: a review of the scientific basis of the European Union assessment and its differences with IARC
Is this a joke?

I hope so, because your first link involves a woman who wants the rollout of 5G stopped because she has collected anecdotes of people with brain cancer who used cellphones. Setting aside the extremely nature of this "evidence", it doesn't relate to a technology just now being implemented.

As for link #2, it references the EU perspective on glyphosate (unlike the discredited IARC study, the European Food Safety Authority's analysis did not label glyphosate a carcinogen) and says the following:

"The EU assessment did not identify a carcinogenicity hazard, revised the toxicological profile proposing new toxicological reference values, and conducted a risk assessment for some representatives uses. Two complementary exposure assessments, human-biomonitoring and food-residues-monitoring, suggests that actual exposure levels are below these reference values and do not represent a public concern."

That's not an endorsement of "decent evidence" that glyphosate causes cancer.
  #29  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:38 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is online now
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In short, it seems that in 2007 or so in the vaccine injury court, a special court set up by the US government to protect the pharma industry from lawsuits...
Let me stop you right there. The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was set up as a compromise between pharmaceutical companies and the public to avoid endless litigation by individuals. It's actually much better for the public than a typical medical malpractice or product defect lawsuit. The plaintiff doesn't have to establish causation for most conditions. They only have to show that (1) their injury is a type which can be caused by a vaccine, and (2) that the injury occurred within a plausible time frame from the administration of the vaccine. In other words, it is presumed that the vaccine caused an injury, without actual proof that it did.

If the injury is not a type which studies show can occur from vaccines, the plaintiff can still offer medical evidence that a vaccine caused the injury, and the standard of proof is still virtually a presumption of causation. The plaintiff need only show:
Quote:
(1) a medical theory causally connecting the vaccination and the injury; (2) a logical sequence of cause and effect showing that the vaccination was the reason for the injury; and (3) a showing of a proximate temporal relationship between vaccination and injury.
In other words, there only needs to be a plausible link.
  #30  
Old 01-11-2019, 03:04 PM
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But there is at least some decent evidence that the radiation from 5G cell towers causes brain cancer
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/...lds-fact-sheet
  #31  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:03 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Yes, your right. Giving a kid a vaccine wont automatically cause autism.



Also I agree vaccines have stopped some of the worse diseases like smallpox and polio.


However I think what Zimmerman is hitting on is that our current method of administration of vaccines, which is to give every kid the same dose level at the same time, could cause autism in some cases. I think what they are implying is maybe we should have some sort of test we can do beforehand to see if their is a potential for vaccine injury. I mean their are dozens of chemicals in vaccines like aluminum.





Yes, all countries vaccinate. However not all at the same time and at the same schedule as the US.
  #32  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:16 PM
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The links that show that those questions have already been answered have already been posted, so I see no reason to post them again just so that they will be ignored again.
  #33  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:27 PM
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However I think what Zimmerman is hitting on is that our current method of administration of vaccines, which is to give every kid the same dose level at the same time, could cause autism in some cases.
But there is no more evidence for this claim than for the claim that vaccines will automatically cause autism in every recipient.

Just making your hypothesis more restricted doesn't automatically make it more plausible. If I start out by declaring that NASA's moon launches were a complete hoax filmed on a California soundstage, and then modify that to the claim that we did actually send a spaceship to the moon's orbit but just faked the landing, that doesn't mean that my second claim is more likely or better worth investigating than my first. Half a ton of bullshit is less bullshit than a ton of bullshit, but it's still nothing but bullshit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck
I think what they are implying is maybe we should have some sort of test we can do beforehand to see if their is a potential for vaccine injury.
Huh? Are you unaware that there are many tests that researchers "do beforehand" to investigate the potential for vaccine injury, as described here?
Quote:
Monitoring Vaccine Safety: Pre-Licensure

Before vaccines are licensed by the FDA, they are tested extensively in the laboratory and with human subjects to ensure their safety. First, researchers use computers to predict how the vaccine will interact with the human immune system. Then researchers test the vaccine on animals including mice, guinea pigs, rabbits, and monkeys.

After the vaccine completes these laboratory tests successfully, the FDA approves its use in clinical studies on human subjects. [...]

The FDA requires that vaccines undergo three phases of clinical trials with human subjects before they can be licensed for use in the general public:

Phase one trials are small, involving only 20 to 100 volunteers, and last only a few months. The purpose of phase one trials is to evaluate basic safety and identify very common reactions.

Phase two trials are larger and involve several hundred participants. These studies last anywhere from several months to two years and collect additional information on safety and efficacy. Data gained from phase two trials can be used to determine the composition of the vaccine, how many doses are necessary, and a profile of common reactions.

Unless the vaccine is ineffective or causes health problems, the trials are expanded to phase three, which involves several hundred to several thousand volunteers. Typically these trials last several years. Because the vaccinated group can be compared to those who have not received the vaccine, researchers are able to identify true reactions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck
Yes, all countries vaccinate. However not all at the same time and at the same schedule as the US.
In order to justify proposing changes to the standard American pediatric vaccine schedule, you'd need to provide some evidence that another country's version of the schedule is better, and what feature(s) specifically make it better.
  #34  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
However I think what Zimmerman is hitting on is that our current method of administration of vaccines, which is to give every kid the same dose level at the same time, could cause autism in some cases. I think what they are implying is maybe we should have some sort of test we can do beforehand to see if their is a potential for vaccine injury. I mean their are dozens of chemicals in vaccines like aluminum.
What you think is completely irrelevant to what actually happens in reality. And given that this is a subject that you care about, you have no excuse to have remained uninformed. If you're worried about something, the solution is not to spread ignorance and avoid reality. Murdering children, simply because you hate the idea of being proven wrong, is not justifiable, it is purely an act of malignant ignorance that results in the deaths of children, and protects no one from autism - since that's not how autism happens.

Let's say that there's a 10% chance that your worries have some validity. They don't, but let's say that they do. That leaves you with two options:

1) Worry and spread your worry, hoping that someday, someone will find an answer that allows you to either qualm your fears or that one day, through some amazing stroke of lottery-winning luck, you finally save one single, lone child from one obscure, statistically insignificant vector for autism that can be prevented. Congratulations, you accomplished something! But, in so doing, you have still caused the spread of disinformation and fear, resulting in the deaths and injury of dozens of children.
2) Keep that shit to yourself, and protect those dozens of children. Because a) you had a 90% chance of being wrong to begin with, and b) you are probably not the person to win that lottery. In option 1, you really only ever - in the real world - cause death and misery. Yeah, you get to act on your worries, but manning up and keeping your worries to yourself when it saves people is what actually shows courage and caring.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 01-11-2019 at 05:47 PM.
  #35  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:03 PM
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Giving a kid a vaccine wont automatically cause autism.
Giving a kid a vaccine won't ever cause autism.
  #36  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:13 PM
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But will it cause their heads to explode Scanners-style?

I mean, sure, it clearly doesn't cause all their heads to explode, I never said it did.

But maybe it sometimes does? Maybe sometimes it explodes them? Can you prove it doesn't?

(Note: That proof you just gave? I reject it.)
  #37  
Old 01-11-2019, 07:13 PM
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I mean their are dozens of chemicals in vaccines like aluminum.
I, for one, have decided to avoid vaccines until they develop one that's completely devoid of chemicals.
  #38  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:12 PM
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I, for one, have decided to avoid vaccines until they develop one that's completely devoid of chemicals.
It's far worse than that.

V - Vanadium
AC - Actinium
C - Carbon
I - Iodine
NE - Neon
S - Sulfur

Vaccines are made out of elements! Everybody panic!
  #39  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:36 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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Yes, your right. Giving a kid a vaccine wont automatically cause autism. ...

I mean their are dozens of chemicals in vaccines like aluminum.
Maybe you're expertise on medical science would be better believed if their were evidence of you expertise in basic English.

But the claim about aluminum is too serious to go unattacked.

Rebuttal
.

Quote:
You may have heard fellow parents warn about aluminum in childhood vaccines. Dr. Sears's book The Vaccine Book has exacerbated this fear by creating an “alternative vaccine schedule” to space out vaccines to keep aluminum exposure to a minimum.

There is no need for parents to fear aluminum. The element is the most common metal found in nature and is a part of our everyday environment.

Another rebuttal
.
Quote:
In an article, published in Academic Pediatrics [March 2018, Volume 18, Issue 2, Pages 161–165], a moderate impact factor peer-reviewed specialty journal, researchers examined aluminum levels compared to infant development for vaccinated and unvaccinated children.

The study followed 85 children aged 9 to 13 months, excluding those who received aluminum-containing pharmaceuticals, were evaluated for blood and hair aluminum levels, vaccination history, and cognitive, language and motor development scores. The authors measured aluminum levels using inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry, a powerful and highly accurate method to measure incredibly small amounts of metals, like aluminum. It can measure aluminum down to 1 in one quadrillion parts, or 1 in 1015.

Let’s keep this simple. The authors found no correlation between infant blood or hair aluminum concentrations and vaccine history or between blood aluminum and overall developmental status. Let me make it more simple – a powerful analytical tool found no evidence that an infant, after numerous vaccinations in their first six months, showed any signs of an additional burden of aluminum. None.
Another 2018 paper.

Quote:
However, the inclusion of Al salts in vaccines has been debated for several years because of studies that seem to indicate that chronic Al exposure through vaccine administration can interfere with cellular and metabolic processes leading to severe neurologic diseases. Children, who in their first years of life receive several vaccine doses over a reduced period of time, would be most susceptible to any risk that might be associated with vaccines or vaccine components. The main aim of this paper was to discuss the data presently available regarding Al neurotoxicity and the risk for children receiving vaccines or other pharmaceutical preparations containing Al. Analysis of the literature showed that no apparent reason exists to support the elimination of Al from vaccines for fear of neurotoxicity.
I emphasize the dates of the research papers. Science proceeds in small steps, each building on all the others. It is often messy and uncertain. No study can cover every possibility; no study is large enough to investigate the entire population. This unfortunately makes it easy for the cranks to cite older papers without mentioning that their results may have been superseded.

Of course, you don't bother to give any cites for your assertion. It's apparently pulled freely out of your arsenic sulfur.
  #40  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I mean their are dozens of chemicals in vaccines like aluminum.
Forget it, Urbanredneck, you're out of your element!


Last edited by Qadgop the Mercotan; 01-11-2019 at 09:48 PM.
  #41  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
Forget it, Urbanredneck, you're out of your element!

Why are you just compounding the problem? I bet Urbanredneck thought he was bonding with the rest of the Dope.
  #42  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:49 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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Enough.

This is unlikely to accomplish anything more.
  #43  
Old 01-14-2019, 10:20 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elbows View Post
Please, please, DON’T click on any of his Autism/Vaccine links.

He’s using our board to drive traffic to these shitty bad science sites. (Possibly for profit! He’s been that successful working his routine here!) He’s done this ‘just asking’ silliness numerous times in regards to this topic. He doesn’t participate and occassionslly even admits he’s not interested in engaging or changing minds.

Not sure why this board doesn’t step in to stop this behaviour. Especially considering the whole ‘fighting ignorance’ thing. Exactly how many times can he claim he’s ‘just asking’, before this routine borders on trolling, you have to wonder.
After review, this is earning you a warning, elbows. It is not your place to make such accusations in Great Debates. If you feel someone is arguing in bad faith or for other reasons that to actually debate you may bring it up in the Pit or with the staff. You may not do so in an open post.
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