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Old 08-24-2018, 02:08 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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Objection to involuntary gay-conversion therapy or voluntary

This may be more of a GQ question than GD, but I am confused about whether the societal objection to so-called gay-conversion therapy is only about involuntary conversion of gays to straight against their will, or whether it also involves an objection to gay-conversion for homosexuals who themselves *voluntarily* want to become straight.

The former is a totally understandable objection, but if the latter, is it that there is fear that gays could be involuntarily coerced into such therapy under a guise of "they want it?"
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Old 08-24-2018, 02:14 AM
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If sexual orientation is hard wired why would someone feel the desire to voluntarily change how they are wired if that particular wiring isn't a danger to anyone else? I think if there is a mass of people voluntarily looking to change something that fundamental to who they are perhaps there is actually some pretty strong societal or family pressures that belie the notion that it's actually a voluntary decision.
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Old 08-24-2018, 02:57 AM
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Then isn't that"straight-splaining?" Because then it would be that a gay person says "I voluntarily want to become straight" but then is told, "No, you don't actually want that, you're saying that because of pressure from others, we know better than you what you really want?"



Or even if a gay person does feel pressure, doesn't requiring them to stay gay also restrict them? It would be as if the world consists of blondes and brunettes, and blondes are considered better, and so a brunette wants to get her hair dyed blonde but is told "You can't do that because you're doing so because of societal pressure, not because of true voluntary desire."

Last edited by Velocity; 08-24-2018 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 03:03 AM
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Honestly, I wasn’t super familiar with the details of this so-called therapy. After a bit of reading it seems like quackery.
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Old 08-24-2018, 03:13 AM
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Ever hear the phrase, "don't be so open-minded your brain falls out?" This is where it would apply. It has nothing to do with "straight splaining". The whole concept of reorientation therapy is indeed quackery as octopus said, and even if it was entered voluntarily, it has been shown to be downright harmful.

And nobody is "required to stay gay" (whatever the hell that means).
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Old 08-24-2018, 03:14 AM
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and so a brunette wants to get her hair dyed blonde
It's possible to dye hair, it isn't possible to turn a gay person into a straight one.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:09 AM
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Yeah, it's largely a question of fraudulent propaganda. If a gay individual wants to be heterosexual, for whatever reason, I might think there are some problems with that attitude but I wouldn't try to dictate to them what they ought to want.

However, if a gay individual who wants to be heterosexual is unrealistically expecting that "gay conversion therapy" is likely to be effective in producing the desired result, they need to get their ignorance fought before they try to tackle getting their sexual orientation changed.

Last edited by Kimstu; 08-24-2018 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 06:45 AM
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Your question is like asking if people object to involuntary or voluntary aura reading.

Since both are only practiced by scammers, and are both clearly woo, itís a kinda a distinction without meaning.

Just because people are volunteering, doesnít make it less a scam.

My opinion only, worth what you paid for it!
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Old 08-24-2018, 08:52 AM
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Seriously, plenty of gay people start out wishing they could be straight. Life would be so much less miserable if they could conform and not have to be bullied, beaten, outcast from their families, spurned by their church, ridiculed by random strangers. Why wouldn't they want to be straight!

So, of course there's gay people who might want to give gay conversion therapy a go. They haven't yet found a better way to live than in the bosom of their bigoted environment.

Trouble is, gay conversion is bogus. If it has any effect at all, it will be to leave those taking part with increased feelings of failure and depression. It's damaging, dangerous and should be banned, regardless of whether some gay people think it might be a route out of their current situation (which it isn't).

Last edited by SanVito; 08-24-2018 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 09:17 AM
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No, I have met some people who have changed. It should be an option and even covered by insurance.

Thing is nobody really knows why people are gay or straight. There is no "gay gene" or DNA or anything like that. What I have been told is it's a spectrum where say all straight is on the left, all gay is on the right, and bisexual is in the middle. People fall somewhere on that line. So it's entirely possible for someone who identifies as straight to have some feelings for their own gender and same with gays. I see no reason if someone feels bad about their same sex attractions, that they should have the opportunity to explore where those feelings come from and attempt to reduce or eliminate them.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:07 AM
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No, I have met some people who have changed.
How do you actually know that they have "changed", as opposed to just suppressing their actual sexuality just to fit in?
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:22 AM
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Are there any examples of conversion therapy where they only accept patients who have come to them 100% voluntarily? I doubt any would succeed. A big part of their business is young men under pressure from parents and church to become straight or else.

I wouldn't outlaw such a thing, but I'd still disapprove, same as I would for Sylvia Browne type mediums. It's sheer quackery preying on the ignorant. However, I wouldn't stop people from voluntarily wasting their money. But no way in hell should government support it, financially or otherwise.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:27 AM
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I think the OP needs to clarify what he is asking. There are two types of objections (at least):

1. Conversion therapy is woo and I think people should avoid it. It doesn't work.

2. Conversion therapy is harmful and it should be illegal to offer it, at least under certain circumstances (e.g. for minors).

Which if these are you asking about?

Last edited by John Mace; 08-24-2018 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:30 AM
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If this is about California Assembly Bill 2943, that bill is simply an extension of existing law that prohibits outright scams and fraud. Gay-conversion therapy is, at best, a scam perpetrated on the gullible akin to snake oil, and at its worst, it's actively harmful and not just fraudulent but comparable to medical malpractice. The right-wing hysteria over this bill is one of the most reprehensible gross misrepresentations I've seen in a long time, characterizing it as an "attack on churches" and an effort by godless heathen liberals to ban books and soon ban the Bible.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:50 AM
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Thing is nobody really knows why people are gay or straight. There is no "gay gene" or DNA or anything like that. What I have been told is it's a spectrum where say all straight is on the left, all gay is on the right, and bisexual is in the middle. People fall somewhere on that line. So it's entirely possible for someone who identifies as straight to have some feelings for their own gender and same with gays. I see no reason if someone feels bad about their same sex attractions, that they should have the opportunity to explore where those feelings come from and attempt to reduce or eliminate them.
AFAICT most self-identified bisexuals don't have much problem gravitating toward relationships that they feel good about, both attraction-wise and attitude-wise. After all, they are already familiar with feelings of attraction to individuals of either gender.

The problem is when people who only or mostly have feelings of attraction toward the same gender want to "convert" those feelings to apply to the opposite gender instead. That's not like a bisexual individual deciding "You know what, I think I'd rather have the fish instead of the beef from now on." That's a highly fish-allergic, beef-loving individual desperately insisting "I need to change my nauseated throat-closing revulsion about fish into the sort of passionate delight I naturally feel about beef, while at the same time learning to hate beef into the bargain!" That sort of "desire transplant" tends to have a very, very poor success rate.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:54 AM
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tends to have a very, very poor success rate.
and messes with other people's lives, as well.
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:05 AM
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AFAICT most self-identified bisexuals don't have much problem gravitating toward relationships that they feel good about, both attraction-wise and attitude-wise. After all, they are already familiar with feelings of attraction to individuals of either gender.

The problem is when people who only or mostly have feelings of attraction toward the same gender want to "convert" those feelings to apply to the opposite gender instead. That's not like a bisexual individual deciding "You know what, I think I'd rather have the fish instead of the beef from now on." That's a highly fish-allergic, beef-loving individual desperately insisting "I need to change my nauseated throat-closing revulsion about fish into the sort of passionate delight I naturally feel about beef, while at the same time learning to hate beef into the bargain!" That sort of "desire transplant" tends to have a very, very poor success rate.

This may need to be a separate question but do homosexuals feel the intense revulsion about heterosexual sex the same way a lot of heterosexuals feel about gay sex?
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:12 AM
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This may need to be a separate question but do homosexuals feel the intense revulsion about heterosexual sex the same way a lot of heterosexuals feel about gay sex?
If you ask one, you may get that person's take on the subject...but I'm reasonably certain there is no one answer that pertains to all gay people.
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:12 AM
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This may need to be a separate question but do homosexuals feel the intense revulsion about heterosexual sex the same way a lot of heterosexuals feel about gay sex?
Yes, many of us do.
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:23 AM
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It would be as if the world consists of blondes and brunettes, and blondes are considered better, and so a brunette wants to get her hair dyed blonde but is told "You can't do that because you're doing so because of societal pressure, not because of true voluntary desire."
Going with this analogy, the equivalent would be if the dyeing process not only didn't actually work converting a person to a blonde, but was actually very harmful to the health of the person. Then yes, we would outlaw it.
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:40 PM
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Going with this analogy, the equivalent would be if the dyeing process not only didn't actually work converting a person to a blonde, but was actually very harmful to the health of the person. Then yes, we would outlaw it.
Right. The problem is worse than "it doesn't work." Gay conversion therapy has been shown to cause actual harm. Since it doesn't work, the person winds up in a worse off than when they started.

There are plenty of things people want to do that are outlawed because of the harm they cause. It might be different if there was some benefit, but there just isn't.
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:58 PM
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Yes, many of us do.
Co-sign.
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Old 08-24-2018, 02:12 PM
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It should be an option and even covered by insurance.
No, no and HELL NO. Insurance doesn't even cover a lot of necessary treatments people need, and you think it should include something that has shone to be mostly bullshit and often harmful to individuals?
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:16 PM
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This may need to be a separate question but do homosexuals feel the intense revulsion about heterosexual sex the same way a lot of heterosexuals feel about gay sex?
Interesting, to me, that you qualified your mention of heterosexuals with "a lot of" but did not qualify your mention of homosexuals at all. Those who are (I'm assuming) different from you must all be the same? Please ponder that for a while. Also I question the percentage of heterosexuals who actually do feel revulsion at gay sex.

The answer to your question is that, just as in any grouping of people, individuals are different. Just as there is a spectrum for sexual attraction there is a spectrum for sexual revulsion.

Here's what is wrong with "gay-conversion" therapy: no-one knows or can prove scientifically what causes sexual attraction, gay or straight. The best that anyone has come up with so far is correlation, which is never predictively 100% accurate, but just seems to change the odds somewhat. It's clearly a very complex set of factors. It's also clearly something that is usually set pretty early (I realized it when I was 7).

So what kind of process could "gay-conversion" therapy possibly use that could overcome enough of the contributing factors that have been in place for any gay person for most of his/her life, to make such a fundamental change? And make no mistake, sexual attraction is very much a fundamental component of personality.

A gay person who dislikes being gay can be celibate; some can force themselves to have sex exclusively with the opposite sex; a bi-sexual person can presumably choose one sex over the other all the time. That's not conversion, that's just a strong force of will.
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Old 08-24-2018, 07:41 PM
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No, I have met some people who have changed.
Your anecdote is just an anecdote. Please provide cites.
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Old 08-24-2018, 08:43 PM
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I see no reason if someone feels bad about their same sex attractions, that they should have the opportunity to explore where those feelings come from and attempt to reduce or eliminate them.
I submit that if someone feels bad about their same-sex attractions that is what they need to address with therapy rather than try to change who they are.
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Old 08-24-2018, 09:21 PM
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I submit that if someone feels bad about their same-sex attractions that is what they need to address with therapy rather than try to change who they are.
That would be my opinion as well, but we are talking about personal choice here. Much as I think conversion therapy is mostly harmful bullshit, I do tend to take a social libertarian stance on voluntary harmful bullshit.

Involuntary conversion therapy should be flat-out illegal. So should voluntary juvenile conversion therapy.

Voluntary conversion therapy for a legal adult( however you define it )should be as legal as going to a chakra cleanser, homeopath or crystal healer. It's shitty woo IMO, but if I'm going to allow people the choice to kill themselves( and I do support that choice ), then I think it would be hypocritical not to allow folks to go fuck themselves up with lousy therapy. Over 18 and you want to eat a Tide pod? Be my guest. No law against being stupid.

However much like homeopathy I would support a law that prevents conversion therapists from making broad claims of success unless that can be proven in a rigorous way.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 08-24-2018 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 09:52 PM
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Voluntary conversion therapy for a legal adult( however you define it )should be as legal as going to a chakra cleanser, homeopath or crystal healer. It's shitty woo IMO, but if I'm going to allow people the choice to kill themselves( and I do support that choice ), then I think it would be hypocritical not to allow folks to go fuck themselves up with lousy therapy. Over 18 and you want to eat a Tide pod? Be my guest. No law against being stupid.
I agree that an adult should be able to choose their own path and if that includes woo then so be it.

It bothers me that society cannot outlaw snake-oil salesmen but I can not think of a good way we could outlaw it. The "cure" could be worse than the problem. So, some poor souls are doomed to be suckered because we deem it wrong to save people from themselves (in most cases).

And again...I get it. Saving people from themselves is fraught with trouble.

Sucks. Best we can do is educate and hope.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:03 PM
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should be as legal as going to a chakra cleanser, homeopath or crystal healer.
Instead of allowing these people to be defrauded, the other frauds should be shut down as well. They necessarily involve lies/fraud. None of them says, "this does absolutely nothing, but I want to make money, hand it over" or "this does absolutely nothing, you could get much sicker or even die, while you piss about with this nonsense instead of going to a qualified medical person, but I want to make money, hand it over". All fraudsters should be in the same place, court or detention.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:24 PM
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All fraudsters should be in the same place, court or detention.
I sympathize. But one person's woo is another's efficacious alternative therapy. I tend to think much of the panoply of naturopathy including acupuncture and an awful lot of herbal medicine is crap as well. But many, many millions disagree with me.

I'd settle for much more rigorous truth-in-advertising laws myself.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:34 PM
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Honestly, I wasnít super familiar with the details of this so-called therapy. After a bit of reading it seems like quackery.
Because it is.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:36 PM
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How do you actually know that they have "changed", as opposed to just suppressing their actual sexuality just to fit in?
Or that they are bisexual to some degree and unwilling to admit it?
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:39 PM
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I tend to think much of the panoply of naturopathy including acupuncture and an awful lot of herbal medicine is crap as well. But many, many millions disagree with me.

I'd settle for much more rigorous truth-in-advertising laws myself.
I forget what it was I was watching but it was something about the FDA about to institute a truth in advertising ruling on homeopathy supplements and the vitamin industry ran ads that the government was going to take away their vitamins.

FTR vitamins are mostly worthless unless you have a vitamin deficiency. Other homeopathic supplements are truly worthless.

The FDA guy said the public outcry was massive and they relented.

People want their woo.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:46 PM
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I read that recently in one of Paul Offit's books. Mel Gibson was in one of the ads, where they arrested him for having Vitamin C.


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I sympathize. But one person's woo is another's efficacious alternative therapy. I tend to think much of the panoply of naturopathy including acupuncture and an awful lot of herbal medicine is crap as well. But many, many millions disagree with me.

I'd settle for much more rigorous truth-in-advertising laws myself.
Fine. But in absolutely no way should insurance cover it.

Last edited by Guinastasia; 08-24-2018 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:05 PM
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I read that recently in one of Paul Offit's books. Mel Gibson was in one of the ads, where they arrested him for having Vitamin C.
Yup...that's the one.
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:12 PM
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I read that recently in one of Paul Offit's books. Mel Gibson was in one of the ads, where they arrested him for having Vitamin C.
Found the ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV2olDA0w8U

Seems crazy but that ad worked.
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Old 08-24-2018, 11:25 PM
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I'd settle for much more rigorous truth-in-advertising laws myself.
Yes, they have to tell you that your "efficacious alternative remedy" does absolutely nothing. That's fine, then there's no fraud. You are just handing money to somebody for nothing.

After they make it so they have to tell the truth to customers, they should publish a list of those customers. I'd love to get my hands on some of that money they like giving away.
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Old 08-25-2018, 12:53 AM
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I submit that if someone feels bad about their same-sex attractions that is what they need to address with therapy rather than try to change who they are.
But who are you or I to tell them how they should feel or what to do?
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Old 08-25-2018, 07:58 AM
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But who are you or I to tell them how they should feel or what to do?
Are you asking this in the context of a hypothetical where gay conversion therapy worked? I don't want to speak for Whack-a-Mole, but it seems to me that he was saying that, since conversion therapy doesn't work, they would be better off getting therapy to be comfortable with who they are because they are not likely to change.

Because in the real world, it doesn't. So, while I don't want to make it illegal (much...maybe better disclosures), I can still object to it existing and would never suggest it to anyone I know who is uncomfortable with their sexual orientation.

Once it seemed pretty clear from this thread that it's all woo, then I'm not sure what your point is here anymore. Are you asking us to accept the counterfactual, where we pretend it does work and think about the consequences? I didn't see that anywhere in your OP or subsequent posts.
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Old 08-25-2018, 08:16 AM
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But who are you or I to tell them how they should feel or what to do?
We're the same people who will tell cancer patients to visit reputable oncologists rather than basement quacks, and for the same reasons. Gay-conversion "therapy" is not only ineffective, but harmful, and should be outlawed. If gay people are having difficulties or challenges with their sexuality or identity, they should visit trained therapists and psychologists.
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Old 08-25-2018, 08:19 AM
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But who are you or I to tell them how they should feel or what to do?
Who are the churches and anti-gay organizations to tell them how they should feel and what they should do? Where are your objections to those who use peer pressure and/or hate to make them think that it is wrong to be gay?
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Old 08-25-2018, 08:20 AM
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But who are you or I to tell them how they should feel or what to do?
Out of concern for other people. If somebody's corresponding with a "Nigerian prince" and about to ship off a whack of money, you fill them in that it is a common scam and you recommend they don't waste their money that way. Ditto somebody misled into bogus "treatments", you let them know that it's not legitimate so they don't end up poorer and messed up in the head for no reason whatsoever.
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Old 08-25-2018, 08:34 AM
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I forget what it was I was watching but it was something about the FDA about to institute a truth in advertising ruling on homeopathy supplements and the vitamin industry ran ads that the government was going to take away their vitamins.

FTR vitamins are mostly worthless unless you have a vitamin deficiency. Other homeopathic supplements are truly worthless.

The FDA guy said the public outcry was massive and they relented.

People want their woo.
Wait a minute-- vitamins are not homeopathy. My friend who had a sleeve gastrectomy is on a regimen of vitamins prescribed by her doctor.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
We're the same people who will tell cancer patients to visit reputable oncologists rather than basement quacks, and for the same reasons. Gay-conversion "therapy" is not only ineffective, but harmful, and should be outlawed. If gay people are having difficulties or challenges with their sexuality or identity, they should visit trained therapists and psychologists.
Exactly. Laetrile is illegal. An actual doctor cannot perform surgeries willy-nilly. You can't have a tonsillectomy to treat your leg pain, because some woo person said there's a throat-leg connection, even though there are probably surgeons with boat payments and no scruples who would do it.
  #44  
Old 08-25-2018, 09:28 AM
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I sympathize. But one person's woo is another's efficacious alternative therapy. I tend to think much of the panoply of naturopathy including acupuncture and an awful lot of herbal medicine is crap as well. But many, many millions disagree with me.

I'd settle for much more rigorous truth-in-advertising laws myself.
IMHO, new age therapies such as reiki and astrology are talk therapy in disguise. And they can work to some extent, because when you talk about your feelings with a sympathetic listener it can make you feel better.

The woo part is still woo, though

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 08-25-2018 at 09:29 AM.
  #45  
Old 08-25-2018, 11:08 AM
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Wait a minute-- vitamins are not homeopathy. My friend who had a sleeve gastrectomy is on a regimen of vitamins prescribed by her doctor...
... because she has a vitamin deficiency (due to lower uptake post-surgery).

Vitamins are not quackery. But the vitamin and supplement industry is all about preying on the susceptible using wildly false claims, magic, and woo.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:19 AM
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IMHO, new age therapies such as reiki and astrology are talk therapy in disguise. And they can work to some extent, because when you talk about your feelings with a sympathetic listener it can make you feel better.

The woo part is still woo, though
My measure of a therapy is whether you would feel equally "better" if you spent exactly the same amount of time just sitting and talking to someone. I even think some techniques that board certified psychiatrists use are actually just ice breakers. I think that's all the Rorschach blots were. And I'm someone who firmly believes that psychiatry is a legitimate branch of medicine.

When I was younger (like, 20) I used to wonder if acupuncture could eliminate pain by somehow short-circuiting a nerve, kinda like what would happen if you drove a piece of metal into a conductive wire in an electric circuit. What can I say: I was young. Now I think that to the extent it "works" it does so because it forces a person to relax in order to allow a someone to drive needles into their body. But yeah, mostly it's just a combination of a caring practitioner, and high expectations.

Also, there's regression to the mean. Most people resort to something like acupuncture when they are very desperate at a point of pain in something that usually has natural waxing and waning. Because they go to the practitioner when they are in the most pain, the next state they experience is less pain. After that, there is a bit of a placebo response-- the last time they went, their pan lessened, so the next time they go, their pain lessens again. I read a study of the placebo response that demonstrated that it even shows up in non-human animals-- BUT, here's the really interesting thing-- it DOESN'T show up in memory-impaired people, like Alzheimer's patients. The placebo response is classical conditioning.
  #47  
Old 08-25-2018, 11:23 AM
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... because she has a vitamin deficiency (due to lower uptake post-surgery).

Vitamins are not quackery. But the vitamin and supplement industry is all about preying on the susceptible using wildly false claims, magic, and woo.
I know. I was addressing what sounded like Whack-a-Mole saying that vitamins were homeopathy. They might be useless in a healthy, normal person, but they are not in any way homeopathy. Claritin is useless in a non-allergic person, but it's still a useful medicine in someone with allergies. Homeopathic remedies are ALWAYS useless.
  #48  
Old 08-25-2018, 11:43 AM
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It's like if there were programmes to "un-Jew" a person -- there isn't really a good argument for doing that apart from pressure from outside to degrade part of your identity for some irrational reason. The best therapy is, of course, addressing that root cause, rather than trying to cure some imagined ill.

That said, playing devil's advocate, I could conceive of non-crazy reasons a person might wish to try to "convert". For example, a homosexual person may have a strong desire to have children that are his/her own biological children and the biological children of their life partner. But I think such cases would be extremely rare, plus of course we have to throw in that this kind of therapy simply doesn't work. I'm cool with just condemning it.
  #49  
Old 08-25-2018, 12:16 PM
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Voluntary conversion therapy for a legal adult( however you define it )should be as legal as going to a chakra cleanser, homeopath or crystal healer. It's shitty woo IMO, but if I'm going to allow people the choice to kill themselves( and I do support that choice ), then I think it would be hypocritical not to allow folks to go fuck themselves up with lousy therapy. Over 18 and you want to eat a Tide pod? Be my guest. No law against being stupid.
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
I know. I was addressing what sounded like Whack-a-Mole saying that vitamins were homeopathy. They might be useless in a healthy, normal person, but they are not in any way homeopathy.
I think that there are clearly differentiated categories of woo that cannot be treated equally.

1. No direct effect ever
e.g. homeopathy

2. Beneficial direct effect under some circumstances, harmless in excess;
e.g. most vitamin supplements

3. Beneficial direct effect under some circumstances, but potentially harmful;
e.g. most prescription drugs, a few vitamin supplements

4. Never beneficial, direct harmful effect
e.g. potential drugs that fail in trials, gay conversion therapy

By "direct" effect I mean excluding placebo and excluding potential indirect harm caused by (for example) eschewing an effective treatment in favor of homeopathy. You could add a fifth category for things with some unrelated bona fide purpose that people can easily use to hurt themselves, some of which are regulated.

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Originally Posted by Tamerlane View Post
But one person's woo is another's efficacious alternative therapy. I tend to think much of the panoply of naturopathy including acupuncture and an awful lot of herbal medicine is crap as well. But many, many millions disagree with me.
Choices may be subjective, but evidence is not. That's why we have the scientific method, an it's important to apply it to putative medical treatments where are particularly susceptible to cognitive flaws. And that's what we do for the purposes of legislation - we determine objectively whether treatments are efficacious or harmful.

It seems to me that the "freedom of choice" default approach should apply only to woo in categories (1) and (2) that have no direct harmful effect, and that legislation should apply only to regulate advertised claims of efficacy.

But few people object to the idea of regulating some things in category (3), things that can sometimes be beneficial when prescribed appropriately, but that can do harm.

Tamerlane, if you accept the regulation of prescription drugs in category (3), I really don't see the logic in opposing the regulation of gay conversion therapy. It's not analogous to woo in categories (1) or (2), it's in category (3) - it's analogous to a prospective drug treatment that, in trials, (a) doesn't work (b) has harmful effects. The fact that the harm is psychological rather than physical is irrelevant, we can still objectively evaluate its efficacy and harm in scientific studies.

Last edited by Riemann; 08-25-2018 at 12:21 PM.
  #50  
Old 08-25-2018, 12:20 PM
Nava Nava is offline
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That said, playing devil's advocate, I could conceive of non-crazy reasons a person might wish to try to "convert". For example, a homosexual person may have a strong desire to have children that are his/her own biological children and the biological children of their life partner. But I think such cases would be extremely rare, plus of course we have to throw in that this kind of therapy simply doesn't work. I'm cool with just condemning it.
Plus there's always this thing called "IVF". Because "sometimes when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much they go to a doctor, and nince months later, there you were!"*




* The line is from an ad for a fertility clinic and the little girl should have gotten five Oscars for her performance, but I can't provide a link as I can't find the ad now.




Something like homeopathy has a direct negative impact in the patient's pocket, as well as often being linked to not following actual medical procedures. One of the first measures announced by Spain's current Minister of Health was "taking a scythe to those murderers" (paraphrasing) and I want to hug her for it.
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Evidence gathered through the use of science is easily dismissed through the use of idiocy. - Czarcasm.

Last edited by Nava; 08-25-2018 at 12:22 PM.
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