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  #51  
Old 08-25-2018, 01:05 PM
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Plus there's always this thing called "IVF". Because "sometimes when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much they go to a doctor, and nince months later, there you were!"
I think you may have mis-parsed what I said. IVF cannot make two daddies or two mommies have a baby that is biologically both parents'. Yet.
  #52  
Old 08-25-2018, 01:37 PM
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Homeopathic remedies are ALWAYS useless.
Maybe you should try using more.
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Old 08-25-2018, 01:39 PM
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Maybe you should try using more.
Less.
  #54  
Old 08-25-2018, 01:59 PM
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I think you may have mis-parsed what I said. IVF cannot make two daddies or two mommies have a baby that is biologically both parents'. Yet.
I think you may have missed some important bits. You hadn't made it explicit that they wanted to fall in love with someone of the opposite ge--- actually, sex. It is perfectly possible for two people who are of opposite sexes and not particularly attracted to each other to be life-partners and even have a good partnership except for, you know, the biological bits. Or even with, my gayer-than-a-Pride-parade cousin and his wife have three children (they're legally separated; three-houses household, with each parent moving into the house every other month and back to her Mom's house and the house he shares with his lover of long standing in the other months; at the time the separation took place the family discovered the kids were conceived through IVF).
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  #55  
Old 08-25-2018, 01:59 PM
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Less.
That a more succussinct joke than mine.
  #56  
Old 08-25-2018, 02:43 PM
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It's like if there were programmes to "un-Jew" a person -- there isn't really a good argument for doing that apart from pressure from outside to degrade part of your identity for some irrational reason. The best therapy is, of course, addressing that root cause, rather than trying to cure some imagined ill.
There was. It was called the Inquisition. Not to mention other sweet Christian attacks. Remember the end of Merchant of Venice.
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That said, playing devil's advocate, I could conceive of non-crazy reasons a person might wish to try to "convert". For example, a homosexual person may have a strong desire to have children that are his/her own biological children and the biological children of their life partner. But I think such cases would be extremely rare, plus of course we have to throw in that this kind of therapy simply doesn't work. I'm cool with just condemning it.
A life partner you don't really love is not much of a life partner.
In any case, if conversion therapy was due to some innate desire to change, independent of social pressure, we'd have straight conversion therapy. In fact, since there are far more straights than gays, the market for straight conversion therapy would be bigger, given similar rates of dissatisfaction.
For "conversion" which is actually innate, such as M to F and F to M transition, the rates are about the same both ways, I'd guess.
Anyhow, given that there aren't a lot of straight to gay conversion shops opening up, I'd suspect it was mostly social and religious pressure going on. The types of people offering gay to straight conversion supports this.
  #57  
Old 08-25-2018, 06:43 PM
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I think you may have missed some important bits. You hadn't made it explicit that they wanted to fall in love with someone of the opposite ge--- actually, sex. It is perfectly possible for two people who are of opposite sexes and not particularly attracted to each other to be life-partners and even have a good partnership except for, you know, the biological bits. Or even with, my gayer-than-a-Pride-parade cousin and his wife have three children (they're legally separated; three-houses household, with each parent moving into the house every other month and back to her Mom's house and the house he shares with his lover of long standing in the other months; at the time the separation took place the family discovered the kids were conceived through IVF).
One of my Facebook friends, a former co-worker, is married to a man, and has a stepson. About 20 years ago, his husband had a lesbian friend approach him and say she wanted to have a child, and wanted him to be the father. I don't know how the physical part happened, and it's NOMB. However, his FB page has numerous pictures of him, his husband, the stepson, and the stepson's mother, who is very much a part of their family. AFAIK, they never even lived together, but by all accounts, he's always been a wonderful father to his son.

Some naturopathy is legitimate, and naturopaths are licensed to practice in several states (7, IIRC). Herbal therapy can be helpful too, and like any useful therapy, it can also be very dangerous, which is why you need to tell your doctor AND pharmacist what you're taking - EVERYTHING you're taking. Acupuncture can be, too, when used properly; for example, if you're having back pain and they insert needles into the affected area, that's a legitimate use, but putting a needle in your ear as a weight-loss method (this enjoyed a bit of a craze a while back and some people still swear by it)? Nope, nope, nope.

I live in a city with a college of chiropractic, and THAT can also be legitimate, or it can be total woo. Adjustments for newborns? Veterinary chiropractic? Get real.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming: One of the most horrific misuses of ECT was its use on gay people because they thought it would make them not be gay anymore. Some people were lobotomized for the same reason.

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 08-25-2018 at 06:45 PM.
  #58  
Old 08-25-2018, 06:49 PM
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.
And now back to our regularly scheduled programming: One of the most horrific misuses of ECT was its use on gay people because they thought it would make them not be gay anymore. Some people were lobotomized for the same reason.
Glenn Shadix (Otho the interior designer in BeetleJuice, the minister in Heathers, voice of the Mayor in Nightmare Before Christmas) shared that his parents forced to try all kinds of 'conversion therapy' including at least one variety involving electric shock. I don't remember if it was ECT or something more homespun.
  #59  
Old 08-25-2018, 07:10 PM
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Homeopathic remedies are ALWAYS useless.
If I was stranded in the desert, about to die of dehydration, and came across a large supply of homeopathic remedies (still in sealed bottles), I am fairly sure they would be extremely efficacious in saving my life.
  #60  
Old 08-25-2018, 07:33 PM
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No, I have met some people who have changed. It should be an option and even covered by insurance.
1. Have you met these people before they underwent conversion therapy?

2. Did they tell you they'd successfully undergone conversion therapy, or did someone else tell you?

3. If the former, how much did they have vested in conversion? For instance, a man married to a conservative woman and lives in a conservative community or belongs to a pentecostal church would be under much more pressure to claim conversion therapy works than otherwise.

Insurance companies are generally loathe to cover procedures or therapies that don't have a lot of evidence they work and DO have a lot of evidence they cause damage.
  #61  
Old 08-25-2018, 07:43 PM
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It's not analogous to woo in categories (1) or (2), it's in category (3) - it's analogous to a prospective drug treatment that, in trials, (a) doesn't work (b) has harmful effects. The fact that the harm is psychological rather than physical is irrelevant, we can still objectively evaluate its efficacy and harm in scientific studies.
I think that was meant to read category (4)? Anyway, your meaning is clear.

Another thing. Using fear to try to modify behaviour in dogs is known not to work. All dog training now is positive reinforcement. For anybody to suggest using it on PEOPLE, to basically torture them into "changing" is inhumane on top of being unnecessary and ineffective. You wouldn't do it to a DOG.
  #62  
Old 08-25-2018, 07:46 PM
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I think that was meant to read category (4)?
Yes, sorry about that, messed up the whole point.
  #63  
Old 08-25-2018, 07:57 PM
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Yes, sorry about that, messed up the whole point.
No, it didn't, because you went into further explanation which made it clear. I'm just a "go back and look at the reference" type.
  #64  
Old 08-25-2018, 08:40 PM
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Yes, sorry about that, messed up the whole point.
Not at all. By the way I'm not avoiding replying to you, so much as mulling it over. I sorta half agree, half-disagree and I'm none to certain which half is the more rational one .

You make a good argument, but it may be your claim that the damage being psychological is irrelevant is part of my hangup( and I expect that might be the more irrational part of this on my part ). After all what might cause suicidal ideation in one person might well cause only mild cognitive dissonance in another. Also you kinda dismiss indirect damage but if we are going to allow some poor moron to treat their malaria with homeopathy, what really is the difference? Plasmodium falciparum cares nothing about the placebo effect.

Well, just thinking aloud mostly. I dislike restricting individual agency for adults, but if I agree there is a line ( do I? ), I'm not 100% sure where to draw it.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 08-25-2018 at 08:41 PM.
  #65  
Old 08-25-2018, 09:31 PM
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...it may be your claim that the damage being psychological is irrelevant is part of my hangup( and I expect that might be the more irrational part of this on my part ). After all what might cause suicidal ideation in one person might well cause only mild cognitive dissonance in another...
But there's always variance among patients, that's not unique to psychological effects. There's random variance among patients in the physical harm caused by drugs too. We assess both drugs and talking therapies based on the statistics - expected efficacy vs expected harm.
  #66  
Old 08-26-2018, 12:00 AM
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I think you may have missed some important bits. You hadn't made it explicit that they wanted to fall in love with someone of the opposite ge--- actually, sex.
Typically someone's "life partner" would be someone that they love and may want a (real) sexual relationship.
I think you're being disingenuous.
  #67  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:07 AM
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Glenn Shadix (Otho the interior designer in BeetleJuice, the minister in Heathers, voice of the Mayor in Nightmare Before Christmas) shared that his parents forced to try all kinds of 'conversion therapy' including at least one variety involving electric shock. I don't remember if it was ECT or something more homespun.
Lou Reed was definitely given ECT, and he believed it was because of his gay urges, although his sister stated otherwise. Whatever the reason, it does sound like the doctor was behind it more than the parents.
  #68  
Old 08-27-2018, 08:20 PM
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If this is about California Assembly Bill 2943, that bill is simply an extension of existing law that prohibits outright scams and fraud. Gay-conversion therapy is, at best, a scam perpetrated on the gullible akin to snake oil, and at its worst, it's actively harmful and not just fraudulent but comparable to medical malpractice. The right-wing hysteria over this bill is one of the most reprehensible gross misrepresentations I've seen in a long time, characterizing it as an "attack on churches" and an effort by godless heathen liberals to ban books and soon ban the Bible.
Back before I got married, my girlfriend's daughter used to complain with excessive frequency, "That's not fair!"

We worked very hard to explain to her that "Fair" doesn't mean "advantageous to Jenny" but, rather "equally advantageous (and disadvantageous) to everyone involved." I suspect that, even today, she still doesn't comprehend the nuance.

In a similar vein, it seems political Christians interpret a loss-of-support for historically Christian advantages and ideals as an attack on Christianity as a whole. Telling them they can't engage in "re-education" efforts in support of their dichotomous concept of gender/sex/sexuality is an attack on a facet of their faith. As with any slippery slope argument, they predict "Next their will be..." legalization of something like cannibalism or bombing churches.

Please help me if I'm relatively uninformed about this but the bits and pieces I've read about on this issue make it seem like the Gay Conversion Therapy industry is exclusively a Christian industry, based on Saul/Paul's anti-gay interpretations of Christian literature. Is this correct, or are there GCT facilities run by Hindus or atheists as well?

So if Jeff, a devout Zoroastrian, went in to a GCT facility with the earnest intention of changing his sexual preference, would he have to convert to Christianity (and learn all that from scratch) in order to accept the basic idea that there's a single omniscient omnipotent infallible God who is offended by Jeff's confused libido?

This reminds me of the 1800's efforts by benevolent Christians to send missionaries to Indian reservations and/or pull children off the reservations and have them adopted by White families. Their rationale was that it wasn't that the heathens were inherently bad, they just needed to become Christian. Then everything would be okay.

My point is that a law that forbids forcing adherence to mores and values that are Christianity-based is not a law designed to attack Christianity. It's a law made to recognize that there are views, values, and religions in this world that might not conform to Christian ideology but are, nevertheless, equally valid views, values, and religions. Christians might consider it an attack on their religion because it could ultimately reduce Christianity's dominance over politics and society, but that's very much like a four-year-old saying a loss of personal advantage is a reduction in fairness to the world.

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  #69  
Old 08-27-2018, 09:35 PM
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Please help me if I'm relatively uninformed about this but the bits and pieces I've read about on this issue make it seem like the Gay Conversion Therapy industry is exclusively a Christian industry, based on Saul/Paul's anti-gay interpretations of Christian literature. Is this correct, or are there GCT facilities run by Hindus or atheists as well?
I'm guessing there are no Hindu GCT centers*. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some run by Orthodox Jews. In fact, the only reason I doubt is that Orthodox leaders generally refuse to admit there are gay Jews, and Orthodox families refuse to admit they have gay relatives.

* The man celebrated as the greatest warrior of all, Arjuna, spent a year living as a woman (and according to many sources, having sex with men). The Ramayan has a king say "I go into banishment now. All you children, all you men, all you women, do not stand here and wait for me to return." Years later when he does return, he finds a group of people known as hijras who have been waiting all this time. They explain "As you can see- we are not children. We are neither men nor women. So we waited for our beloved king." The king blesses the hijras and gives them special, sacred duties. Short version- Im thinking no Hindu GCT.
  #70  
Old 08-28-2018, 11:45 AM
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It should be an option and even covered by insurance.
LOL -- Insurance companies hire people who specialize in finding rationales to deny coverage for actual medical treatment; why on earth would they cover woo-woo nonsense?
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:36 PM
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...However, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some run by Orthodox Jews...
Yuuuuuup. By and, increasingly, for.
.

Last edited by andros; 08-28-2018 at 05:37 PM.
  #72  
Old 08-28-2018, 06:27 PM
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Yuuuuuup. By and, increasingly, for.
.
This, we don't need. I am ashamed but not surpised.
  #73  
Old 08-28-2018, 07:11 PM
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LOL -- Insurance companies hire people who specialize in finding rationales to deny coverage for actual medical treatment; why on earth would they cover woo-woo nonsense?
My insurer covers woo nonsense. (It's different down here, private insurance is sort of optional, they try to get people to take it up, and covering nonsense can be attractive)
  #74  
Old 08-28-2018, 10:55 PM
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I'm guessing there are no Hindu GCT centers
Sadly, your guess would be wrong, at least if you are willing to accept "formal medicalized programs of 'gay conversion' treatment" as falling into the category of "GCT centers".
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Richa Vashista remembers the prolonged trauma suffered by one of her clients. His parents had made him take ayurvedic drugs for a full year to rid him of his homosexuality. [...]

Vashista says she gets a case like this at least once a week in her practice as a psychosocial counsellor. Each patient, she says, had been made to undergo a conversion therapy, the umbrella term for pseudoscientific practices that claim to change sexual orientation or gender identity. [...]

Twenty six years after the World Health Organisation declassified homosexuality as a mental disorder and disease in 1990, there are still doctors in India who see it as such. Even today itís not uncommon for them to offer suspect medical treatments Ė such as hormone and electroshock therapy, hypnotherapy and aversion therapy Ė to treat lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer individuals. [...]

The #QueersAgainstQuacks campaign also cites instances of doctors offering gay conversion therapies, despite the position of the World Psychiatric Association and Indian Psychiatric Society that these treatments are harmful.
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Originally Posted by DocCathode
Short version- Im thinking no Hindu GCT.
Short version: Wrong, sorry. Despite some ancient traditions in Indian culture reflecting some degree of acceptance of "third sex", homosexual, and other non-cishet-binary identities, there is a very large amount of institutionalized homophobia in modern Indian society. Though to be fair, some progress is being made in social attitudes.
  #75  
Old 08-28-2018, 11:29 PM
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Sadly, your ]guess would be wrong



Short version: Wrong, sorry. Despite some ancient traditions in Indian culture reflecting some degree of acceptance of "third sex", homosexual, and other non-cishet-binary identities, there is a very large amount of institutionalized homophobia in modern Indian society. Though to be fair, some progress is being made in social attitudes.
I'm confused, but mostly sad and horrified.
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  #76  
Old 08-29-2018, 12:02 AM
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It is complicated. But just as the widespread acceptance of certain types of same-sex sexual activity in classical antiquity doesn't prevent entrenched homophobia in the societies of modern Italy and Greece, the presence of "hijras" and some other non-cishet-binary categories in pre-modern Indian traditions doesn't automatically result in gay-friendliness in modern Indian culture.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:45 AM
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This, we don't need. ....


Nicely done!
  #78  
Old 08-29-2018, 01:38 PM
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I've not heard of any conversion therapy that didn't have a religious antagonist. It preaches how awesome and God-worthy being opposite sex married and going forth to flourish is, and how evil and selfish and disease ridden the same sex life is. Presumably, anyone seeking therapy would have to accept that they and their desires are an abomination and will bring them an eternity of damnation.
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:49 PM
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I've not heard of any conversion therapy that didn't have a religious antagonist.
A few are noted in this decade-old thread. But I think the best response to "are there non-religious gay conversion initiatives" is this:

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Pretty much all of organized psychiatry prior to homosexuality's removal from the DSM in the 1970s.
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:55 PM
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"Gay Conversion Therapy" is based on the assumption that being gay is an emotional disorder and perversion, not a natural state of being from birth. Homophobics constantly hammer on the belief that homosexuality is a "choice", which is absurd. As a heterosexual, I realize that I couldn't suddenly "choose" to be a lesbian, so why in the world would I believe the opposite scenario to be true?
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  #81  
Old 08-29-2018, 01:58 PM
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Some people (men, at least, usually) do have sex with other men without ever thinking of themselves as homosexual, and not necessarily because there is no alternative in their situation. And some anecdotally do "change" - the British writer and jazz singer George Melly, who was homosexual through all his days in the Navy and for quite a while thereafter, described in his memoirs how he was passed by a large group of cyclists on the road, and realised he'd been checking out the women rather than the men, and remained heterosexual and married for the rest of his days.

But the prior question is, why should it matter so much that a "conversion therapy" is required? Suppose "gay conversion therapy" were to be interpreted in the opposite sense, i.e., offering heterosexuals something to convert them to homosexuality. I can imagine the head-exploding reaction - and if that's nonsensical (as it would be) then so is this.

Last edited by PatrickLondon; 08-29-2018 at 02:00 PM.
  #82  
Old 08-29-2018, 06:06 PM
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It is complicated. But just as the widespread acceptance of certain types of same-sex sexual activity in classical antiquity doesn't prevent entrenched homophobia in the societies of modern Italy and Greece, the presence of "hijras" and some other non-cishet-binary categories in pre-modern Indian traditions doesn't automatically result in gay-friendliness in modern Indian culture.
But, in Italy and Greece the old gods are pretty much no longer worshipped (I assume some neo pagans still do). Last I checked, Hindus in India were still reading the Ramayan and the Mahabharata, and praying to Krishna and Ganesh. That's the part I don't understand. In Italy and Greece, a new religion brought new societal values. In India, you still have Hinduism (which I know is not a monolith). So why have things changed?
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:21 PM
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But, in Italy and Greece the old gods are pretty much no longer worshipped (I assume some neo pagans still do). Last I checked, Hindus in India were still reading the Ramayan and the Mahabharata, and praying to Krishna and Ganesh. That's the part I don't understand. In Italy and Greece, a new religion brought new societal values. In India, you still have Hinduism (which I know is not a monolith). So why have things changed?
Okay, you want the complicated, you can have the complicated. Buckle up buttercup, here we go:

1) Things have actually not "changed" in mainstream Hindu society in the sense that heterosexual matrimony and procreation, especially having sons, has always been emphasized as SUPER important to the point of being nearly absolutely mandatory. The ideal of family life based on lifelong heterosexual matrimony is scripturally and categorically prescribed as part of dharma or righteous conduct for Hindus, and this has been the case from remote antiquity right up to the present. In fact, global "westernized" modernity has only very recently begun to shift this cultural viewpoint in the direction of normalizing individualistic diversity of lifestyle patterns including divorce/remarriage, same-sex marriage, etc.

Acceptance in Hindu cultures of male same-sex sexual activity has almost always involved the assumption that such activity is a natural (if slightly disapproved) but ultimately insignificant sideline to the serious dharma matters of (heterosexual) marriage and children. Here's Wikipedia:
Quote:
Although Hindu society does not formally acknowledge sexuality between men, it formally acknowledges and gives space to sexuality between men and third genders as a variation of male-female sex (i.e., a part of heterosexuality, rather than homosexuality, if analysed in Western terms). In fact, Hijras, Alis, Kotis, etc.ó the various forms of third gender that exist in India todayó are all characterized by the gender role of having receptive anal and oral sex with men. Sexuality between men (as distinct from third genders) has nevertheless thrived, mostly unspoken, informally, within men's spaces, without being seen as 'different' in the way it is seen in the West. As in some other non-Western cultures, it is considered more or less a universal aspect of manhood, even if not socially desirable. It is the effeminate male sexuality for men (or for women) which is seen as 'different,' and differently categorised. Men often refer to their sexual play with each other as 'musti.' [...]

"Many men consider it a display of sexual prowess for an older, sexually dominant man to have sex with a young and/or submissive man or boy. Jokes and folk knowledge regarding sex incorporate this theme and create some flexibility for socially acceptable MSM behavior in an otherwise repressive environment. The notion of musti also provides an open space for sexual behavior. Musti is translated as ďfun or mischiefĒ in Hindi and Urdu; the word is understood by most to describe sexual release through ejaculation and non-penetrative sex. In that sense, oral sex or mutual masturbation is not considered to be ďsexĒ; this affords wider license to be given to musti between men. A phrase commonly heard is that a particular liaison was ďjust musti,Ē connoting that it is not to be taken seriously, and therefore below the level at which it would draw moral opprobrium. Musti is also tacitly acknowledged as a common part of boyhood experience: it is considered of little consequence, and it is believed that boys grow out of this behavior."
So while many Hindus throughout history and today would turn a blind eye to casual "musti" sex play between two men or to a man's temporary liaison with a hijra prostitute, for example, most would be very strongly opposed to, say, their son's actually identifying as a hijra or other third-gender category, or to rejecting heterosexual matrimony in favor of a male life partner.

In a sense, then, what all those distraught Indian parents who want their gay sons to go through GCT are concerned about is not so much that their son sometimes enjoys having sex with men, but that he's not willing to have sex with women, in the context of scripturally and socially mandated heterosexual marriage and family.

Okay so far? Watch this space for parts (2) and (3).
  #84  
Old 08-29-2018, 08:02 PM
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Kimstu Thank you! Very informative
  #85  
Old 08-29-2018, 08:11 PM
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You're very welcome! Can't stop won't stop:

2) About that "introduction of a new religion" bit. Just because dharmic/"Hindu" religious practices exhibit a lot of continuity and commonalities between ancient/medieval and modern times (although by no means totally without change and diversification) doesn't mean that other religions haven't strongly impacted Hindu society as well. Both late medieval/early modern Islam (via the Indo-Islamic empires) and modern Christianity (via European, and especially British, colonialism as well as post-colonial globalization) have significantly influenced the social norms of Hindu culture. (Not to mention that about 14% of the present Indian population are Muslim themselves, while a smaller minority, about 2.5%, are Christian.)

Muslim doctrine, of course, generally forbids homosexual sex, although plenty of Muslim cultures (including Indo-Muslim ones) have tolerated it to some extent. In fact, some sources indicate that in medieval times homosexual relationships were more tolerated among Indian Muslim elites than among the Hindu majority. Some remarks:
Quote:
Homosexuality or at least homoeroticism was actually quite common in Mughal court life. [...] By all appearances, homosexuality was not particularly frowned upon among the Muslim ruling elite. For homosexual men, at least.

"In Islamic sufi literature homosexual eroticism was used as a metaoporical expression of the sppiritual relationship between god and man, and much Persian poetry and fiction used homosexual relationships as examples of moral love." [...]

Which is not to say homosexuality was legal per se. Islamic law generally forbade sodomy, with various punishments proscribed by different jurists. [...] The dominant school of thought in the Mughal Empire, Hanafi, was much more lenient and did not demand a death penalty. Punishments could be a fine or left up to the judge's discretion.

In practice, however, even this milder stipulation was largely ignored. [...]

In general, among the elites at least, as long as men fulfilled their other duties at home, they were free to engage in whatever other dalliances they may desire.

Curiously, in contrast, homosexuality was reportedly regarded as a major taboo among the common, mostly native Indian, people of the Mughal Empire.

"Homosexuality, though prevalent among the Mughal amirs, seems to have been rare among the common people in India. Hindus . . . according to [the 11th-century Muslim scientist and ethnographer] Albiruni, considered [homosexuality] as revolting as eating beef."
And of course, you don't need me to explain to you that European Christian colonizers were generally even more adamantly and formally opposed to same-sex sexual activity (although even there, natch, there were various subcultures of covert toleration), and were far more draconian when it came to imposing their religious views on the legal systems governing their colonial subjects. Big honking Human Rights Watch report on "sodomy laws" and British colonialism.
  #86  
Old 08-29-2018, 08:42 PM
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3) But what about the wimminz? In Hindu cultures, as in most other cultures, lesbianism has generally been perceived as far less of a potential threat to social norms of heterosexual marriage and family life than male homosexuality, primarily because women are realistically assumed to have far less autonomy in determining whether, when, and with whom they'll have sex.

Nonetheless, same-sex sexual activity is explicitly prohibited in canonical Hindu dharma texts between women as well as between men. At the same time, though, sexological works such as the ancient classic Kamasutra refer to various acts in both lesbian and male homosexual sexual practice, as part of their comprehensive taxonomy of the ways that human beings get jiggy wit it. Because so much of the Indian historical record in all forms, both Hindu and Indo-Muslim, is male-authored, it is hard to tell (at least from my mostly-layperson perspective; I'm sure a specialist in Indian social history could tell you more) which of the textual and visual-arts references to female same-sex sexual activity represent independent lesbian desires/acts per se, and which represent a sort of "Playboy lesbianism" avant la lettre,* designed primarily to appeal to the heterosexual desires of men. (E.g., having your maid/girlfriend shoot a dildo up your hoo-ha from a crossbow. NSFW and do not try this at home.)

Again, you don't need me to rehash the comparatively well-known debates on the extent to which lesbianism was specifically referenced or covered by Christianity-inspired anti-sodomy legislation in the British Empire. So let's leave it at that, unless there are any further questions.




*I'm not definitively claiming that "Playboy lesbianism avant la lettre" is the most absurdly pretentious phrase I've ever written, but it certainly makes the shortlist.
  #87  
Old 08-29-2018, 09:38 PM
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If somebody wants to change their sex, their transgenderism is no skin off my back. They should be allowed to do what they want. If somebody is gay and doesn’t want to be gay, I say they are free to go ahead and try to change if that’s what they want. Again, no skin off my back.

Personally, I think people are a lot more malleable than the current thinking. I read that there was a study and in roughly 50% of the cases where an identical twin was gay, the other twin was not. I suspect that there is an environmental component. Maybe it gets fixed early in life and then can’t be changed. Maybe it stays malleable for some. I don’t know.

I believe strongly in my own adaptability, and I believe that if there was some huge societal upside to being gay, and a big disadvantage to being straight than I would probably be truly and sincerely gay. I think a lot more people would be.

Last edited by Scylla; 08-29-2018 at 09:40 PM.
  #88  
Old 08-29-2018, 09:50 PM
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I believe strongly in my own adaptability, and I believe that if there was some huge societal upside to being gay, and a big disadvantage to being straight than I would probably be truly and sincerely gay. I think a lot more people would be.
Really? You'd no longer have a sexual interest in women? All due respect, I have trouble believing that.
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:09 PM
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Really? You'd no longer have a sexual interest in women? All due respect, I have trouble believing that.
For me, it would all be about replacing that desire with desire for something else that I choose to value more.

I used to smoke and I used to be very overweight. I told myself that cupcakes and cigarettes were disgusting and that I didnít want them. I told myself that I wanted salad and long runs. Now Iíve run 30 marathons, 6 ultra marathons, and havenít had a cigarette since 1999. Donít miss it donít want it.

I tell myself that I really like my job, and that I want to do it, and am excited about it, and I am. But, I wasnít born 5hat way. I had to train myself.

I am the Captain of my my soul, the master of myself, otherwise, I am nothing. I am in charge of what I like, desire, etc. Those things are the tools I use to motivate myself to do what I believe to be worthy. I master them. They donít master me. My sexuality is trivial compared to this.
  #90  
Old 08-29-2018, 10:16 PM
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For me, it would all be about replacing that desire with desire for something else that I choose to value more.

I used to smoke and I used to be very overweight. I told myself that cupcakes and cigarettes were disgusting and that I didn’t want them. I told myself that I wanted salad and long runs. Now I’ve run 30 marathons, 6 ultra marathons, and haven’t had a cigarette since 1999. Don’t miss it don’t want it.

I tell myself that I really like my job, and that I want to do it, and am excited about it, and I am. But, I wasn’t born 5hat way. I had to train myself.

I am the Captain of my my soul, the master of myself, otherwise, I am nothing. I am in charge of what I like, desire, etc. Those things are the tools I use to motivate myself to do what I believe to be worthy. I master them. They don’t master me. My sexuality is trivial compared to this.
Okay, prove it. Talk is cheap. There are tons of dudes out there that would probably be interested in a fit runner such as yourself. Go bang some of them, be sure to enjoy it, and get back to us.
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  #91  
Old 08-29-2018, 10:17 PM
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If somebody wants to change their sex, their transgenderism is no skin off my back. They should be allowed to do what they want.
A trans person does NOT change their sex. A trans woman has always been a woman. A trans man has always been a man. At some point, they recognize they were born with oh let's call it a birth defect. They talk to a therapist. They get hormonal therapy. They may or not get corrective surgery.


Quote:
I donít know.
This, I believe.

Trans folks go through a lot of hoops to make sure they won't change their minds after hormones or surgery. Conversion 'therapy' involves no such saftey measures. Physicians providing hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery follow the Hipocratic oath to not make the patient worse. The monsters providing conversion pretty much only cause harm and make the patient worse.
  #92  
Old 08-29-2018, 10:31 PM
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I am the Captain of my my soul, the master of myself, otherwise, I am nothing. I am in charge of what I like, desire, etc. Those things are the tools I use to motivate myself to do what I believe to be worthy. I master them. They donít master me. My sexuality is trivial compared to this.
I bet we could do tests on you which would reveal that you aren't nearly the master you think you are. Which makes you like everyone else.
  #93  
Old 08-29-2018, 11:32 PM
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[QUOTE=DocCathode;21177447]A trans person does NOT change their sex. A trans woman has always been a woman. A trans man has always been a man. At some point, they recognize they were born with oh let's call it a birth defect. They talk to a therapist. They get hormonal therapy. They may or not get corrective surgery.[quote]

You are making a valueless semantic argument (since you clearly understood exactly what I said), and you are not educating me.

Quote:
Trans folks go through a lot of hoops to make sure they won't change their minds after hormones or surgery. Conversion 'therapy' involves no such saftey measures. Physicians providing hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery follow the Hipocratic oath to not make the patient worse. The monsters providing conversion pretty much only cause harm and make the patient worse.
Unfortunately, some people also regret their gender reassignment surgery.

Does this mean that they should not have been allowed to have it and that the people who did it to them are monsters?

I donít think so. If somebody wants to get their gender reassigned and feels that would be helpful to them they should be free to do so. If someone feels similarly about their sexuality they should have the same freedom to pursue its alteration.
  #94  
Old 08-29-2018, 11:39 PM
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I bet we could do tests on you which would reveal that you aren't nearly the master you think you are. Which makes you like everyone else.

I could be wrong. I am not certain. How could I be without actually doing it? However, I find it useful to assume that I am fully in control of myself. It stops me from acting on impulse and then excusing myself by claiming I couldnít help myself. Knowing that I am going to accept responsibility for my actions helps me make better choices than I otherwise would.
  #95  
Old 08-29-2018, 11:42 PM
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Okay, prove it. Talk is cheap. There are tons of dudes out there that would probably be interested in a fit runner such as yourself. Go bang some of them, be sure to enjoy it, and get back to us.
I mentioned that there would have to be a big motivating societal advantage to doing so. One-upping you on a message board doesnít reach the bar.
  #96  
Old 08-29-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DocCathode View Post
A trans person does NOT change their sex. A trans woman has always been a woman. A trans man has always been a man. At some point, they recognize they were born with oh let's call it a birth defect. They talk to a therapist. They get hormonal therapy. They may or not get corrective surgery.
I'm puzzled by your use of terminology here. When you say "a trans man has always been a man", isn't that usually termed gender identity rather than sex? The term transgender means that gender identity does not correspond with something, isn't that something usually called sex - birth sex or biological sex? When it's so important to clarify this distinction, it seems odd to then be adamant that sex reassignment surgery does not involve changing one's sex.

Last edited by Riemann; 08-29-2018 at 11:54 PM.
  #97  
Old 08-29-2018, 11:57 PM
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Pretend for a moment that there exists a society that is incredibly bigoted towards tall people. If you're under 6 ft, people treat you normally but if you're over 6 ft, then you face all sorts of discrimination, both subtle and overt.

Now pretend that a group of people have invented a "cure" for tallness which involves literally lopping off your feet and cauterizing the stumps so that you become an "acceptable" height. Sure, you will have troubles walking for the rest of your life and you'll be in constant pain, but once you have the bottoms of your limbs removed, other people will treat you normally from then on.

Now, I think most people would agree that parents who are afraid of their children growing "too tall" and force their kids into height reduction surgery so they can maintain their respectability in the community are absolute monsters. But what about people who grow up in such a society and then completely voluntarily want to chop their own limbs off to conform to societal expectations? I think most people would also say that this shouldn't be allowed, because it's clear in this example that the problem isn't with people's height, it's with society's bigotry.

This analogy is deliberately absurd because we've all lived in societies where people of all heights are able to live in perfect harmony and it's clear that height is not some debilitating condition. Similarly, people who have lived in environments in which homosexuality is accepted as just another spectrum of human expression very quickly realize that there's no intrinsic harm that comes from being gay, the only harm comes from society's structural oppression of gay people. Thus, even if gay conversion therapy was able to "fix the problem" for a given definition of "fix", it should still be illegal because the problematic part of that statement is not "fix", it's "problem".
  #98  
Old 08-30-2018, 12:12 AM
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When you say "a trans man has always been a man", isn't that usually termed gender identity rather than sex? The term transgender means that gender identity does not correspond with something, isn't that something usually called sex - birth sex or biological sex? When it's so important to clarify this distinction, it seems odd to then be adamant that sex reassignment surgery does not involve changing one's sex.
ISTM that you are in fact agreeing with DocCathode here. If "sex" means anatomical and/or genetic sex characteristics, those aren't necessarily changed in the transitioning process (and in the case of the genetic characteristics, of course, cannot be changed).

A transgender man's gender identity---the fact of his being a man---does not correspond to the sex he was assigned at birth, and that will never change. He may choose to change some of his sex characteristics to the extent that he can, but ISTM too that calling that "changing his sex" sounds too sweeping.

But he's not "changing his gender" either, because he's always fundamentally identified as a man. What he's doing in the transition process, AFAICT, is really just asserting his actual gender identity, and (sometimes) making physical changes to better conform to the expected characteristics of his gender.
  #99  
Old 08-30-2018, 12:18 AM
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You are making a valueless semantic argument (since you clearly understood exactly what I said), and you are not educating me.
I'm not sure he did understand you, because I'm not sure I did, either. You referenced trans people as, apparently, support for your claim that you could alter your sexuality through an act of will. Trans people are a very bad example for this claim, because if a trans person could stop being trans through an act of will, almost every single one of them would have done it as soon as they realized they were trans.

However, on re-reading, it appears you may have meant, "If trans people are allowed to change their physical sex, people ought to be allowed to change their sexual orientation." Is this what you were trying to get at with your analogy? Because it genuinely was not very clear.

Quote:
Unfortunately, some people also regret their gender reassignment surgery.

Does this mean that they should not have been allowed to have it and that the people who did it to them are monsters?

I donít think so. If somebody wants to get their gender reassigned and feels that would be helpful to them they should be free to do so. If someone feels similarly about their sexuality they should have the same freedom to pursue its alteration.
Again, I'm not sure precisely what argument you're making here. If a person wants to change their sexual orientation, they should be "allowed" to do that, sure, for all the good it will do them. But that's a different question from, "Should people be allowed to profit off of medical procedures that have been demonstrated conclusively to not just be ineffectual, but to be actually harmful to their patients?" The data against gay conversion therapy is so overwhelming, I think there's a genuine case to be made that the people operating these clinics are not just operating under a different ideology, but are in fact knowing frauds.

As an analogy, I don't think people who want to talk to their dead relatives should be imprisoned. I do think that charlatans who extort money from those people using stage magic to fool them into thinking that they're talking to their dead relatives should be in prison.

So, if some gay dude wants to spend a couple months staring really intently at pictures of vaginas until he starts getting wood, well, that's a really stupid use of your time, but not actually any more stupid than watching professional sports. Someone who knowingly lies to that gay dude, and says he has a process that can make him a consummate 'poon hound? I'm 100% okay with legislating that guy's business out of existence.

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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
I could be wrong. I am not certain. How could I be without actually doing it?
So, bisexuality is a thing, right? If you can transform your heterosexuality into homosexuality, it should be pretty easy to transform it into bisexuality. That's a purely additive process: you just need to learn to like dick. You don't have to unlearn liking pussy. So, that should be easy enough, right? Tell ya what. Here's a broken link to a pic of a dude with a dick in his mouth:

https: //nakedgaypornpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/ChaosMen-Griffin-Jeremiah-oral-gay-sex-blowjob-face-fucking-deep-hot-kissing-young-men-mutual-cock-sucking-007-tube-download-torrent-gallery-sexpics-photo.jpg

Just take the space out from behind the "https:" You take your time with that, and get back to us when you can shoot a load just looking at that pic. This should be easy peasy, compared to your waterboarding experience.
  #100  
Old 08-30-2018, 12:26 AM
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...
I don't think there's any misunderstanding or dispute beyond the semantics. I'm just trying to understand the preferred terminology. Since the term birth sex or biological sex includes the genetic component, should we describe SRS as changing anatomical sex to align with gender identity?
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