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Old 12-09-2018, 11:23 PM
Haldurson Haldurson is offline
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
Agreed. I called it pointless twice and tried to make similar point as you, but no one seemed to want to discuss. You can't draw any real conclusions from the "study".
One study is still data. It just might not be good data.

This comes up a whole lot. I see it all the time with all sorts of studies, sometimes even with the best of intentions. People draw premature conclusions based on studies without knowing if they are well-constructed and that the conclusions are sound.

In some ways, it used to be worse -- Richard Feynman did a meta-study decades ago of published papers in medical journals and in journals of psychology determined that the vast majority of them were flawed because the people conducting the study didn't understand the math and hence were drawing incorrect conclusions based on bad statistical analysis (even when the data was good, the conclusions were not). But then again, they didn't have to contend with the echo chamber that is the internet.
Old 01-10-2019, 01:16 PM
WernhamHogg WernhamHogg is offline
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How do white conservatives talk about black people to other white conservatives? I think that would be far more telling about latent and explicit racist tendancies, and doubt any of the straw-grasping conservatives here claiming liberals were the real racists all along would want to discover they've been an unwitting subject of such a test.
Old 01-10-2019, 03:16 PM
Corry El Corry El is offline
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,358
Left/liberal views are not inconsistent with thinking blacks are on average inferior. Although it does not require such a view of blacks to be left/liberal.

For example racial preferences in college admissions. One reason to favor them would be because you believe otherwise African Americans will never achieve admission to the 'best' schools in proportion, but it creates too much tension in society to have such unequal outcomes in college admission by group. Another reason (the one overwhelmingly given in public) would be that you believe the academic system as-is mis-measures academic achievement, the distribution of college potential among black* students is exactly the same as any other group if measured correctly, therefore a system of race preferences is needed to correct for the mismeasurement.

There's no way to tell how many left/liberal people believe in race based benefits because they think blacks can never achieve equal outcomes without them, v how many think it's a way toward a future where blacks will achieve equally without them. You can't really go by what people say, because the first of those views would draw scathing personal condemnation, and the other is entirely socially acceptable. Note, I don't think the first belief is 'racist'. Racism IMO is where you believe individuals should be judged based on their race. If you truly judge individuals as individuals, you're not a racist. Non-racism doesn't require believing that the statistical distribution of all talents is exactly the same for all groups, again IMO.

The OP discusses white liberals, but it's also possible that non-white liberals believe there are differences in achievement potential by race, not necessarily in favor of their own race.

*the other defense often given is it's a preference to overcome unequal economic backgrounds, which do correlate with race in US society, but if that were actually the only goal you could just have a preference system strictly based on a student's economic background which excluded any consideration of race.

Last edited by Corry El; 01-10-2019 at 03:20 PM.
Old 01-10-2019, 03:25 PM
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Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
I believe the study has demonstrated that liberals treat people differently solely because of their race, and that this informs their preferred political policies.
The study has not "demonstrated" anything yet. From the article you cited:

The findings, based on what the authors stress is “preliminary evidence,"...
It is a start, it is an interesting result but it requires more study before you start drawing broad conclusions.
"I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think any hon. Gentleman will question it." ~John Stuart Mill

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 01-10-2019 at 03:26 PM.
Old 01-10-2019, 03:56 PM
MortSahlFan MortSahlFan is offline
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Location: US
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It's usually them who decide what black people can or cannot handle when it comes to speech. (I live in a black-majority city in the US).. I don't really consider them liberals.
Old 01-10-2019, 03:57 PM
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Miller Miller is online now
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Originally Posted by MortSahlFan View Post
It's usually them who decide what black people can or cannot handle when it comes to speech. (I live in a black-majority city in the US).. I don't really consider them liberals.
Who's "them" in this sentence? Black people? Conservatives? Giant ants?
Old 01-10-2019, 05:00 PM
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DSeid DSeid is offline
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I'd be curious how the results would have shook out if the "white" name was "Daisy Mae" which is more stereotypically white than "Emily" and speaks to class and educational stereotypes to the same degree as "Lakisha"

Be that as it may something else jumps out here. Conservatives had less competence in vocabulary in presenting a book review to "Emily" than liberals did and the same lower level when dealing with "Lakisha" - but more interesting is that when introducing themselves to "Lakisha" the conservatives tried to put on airs and use more high falootin' words than when speaking to Emily. Huh.

The study of course is crap but I still suspect the findings are real to some degree. I readily admit that I play the room - call it code switching or whatever you want but in conscious and I am sure unconscious ways I will alter how I speak based on the words I think my audience knows. I learned to do that as a kid when my speaking as came natural to me (which meant using the words I read and heard from my older sibs and parents and I read a lot) got me made fun of as an egghead or worse. I would relax and speak that way in certain classes and with certain friends but I altered my speech in other crowds. As a physician I will speak one way if the room contains doctors and another if the room is those of no higher education.

I think we all do this to some degree. We make different references to someone of our in-group who we expect to get the allusion than in a different crowd. And of course we all are guilty of implicit stereotyping when we do it.

If I am introducing myself to "Maisy Lu" or "Billy Bob" I will speak a bit differently than speaking with "Emily" or "Leonard" ... and my stereotyped assumptions based on the name may be way off, but this is something that becomes quickly apparent in real world interactions when I hear Billy Bob or Lakisha speak.

The study could have used pictures of middle class people, one Black and one white, and neutral names, such as "Michelle" for each. I suspect that there might still be an impact due to implicit bias but I also suspect it would be very small.

As done pretty worthless, yeah. Most of note for how white conservatives tried to act fancier introducing themselves to a Lakisha.

Last edited by DSeid; 01-10-2019 at 05:01 PM.


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