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  #201  
Old 12-06-2018, 03:48 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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Originally Posted by BrainFireBob View Post
Ah, so you suffer from sexist bigotry you can't overcome in interactions with others. I pity you for that.
BFB. Youíre not new here but you donít post a lot. Because of that Iíll go easy on you. Stop personalizing and insulting other posters.

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  #202  
Old 12-06-2018, 03:49 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is online now
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
The "Pence Rule" is about women specifically, and thus the "Pence Rule" applied to all employees is like "racism" applied to all races -- nonsense.
My interpretation of the "Pence Rule" is about more than just avoiding sexual harassment allegations. It's also to avoid rumors/accusations/speculation of being involved in an affair. At least that's the main reason I've applied it.

Since I treat everyone with respect, I'm not afraid of a (credible) sexual harassment allegation. But, I know how the rumor mill is at my workplace, and I don't want my name circulating in it - especially when there are people here who would love to be associated with me in that way.
  #203  
Old 12-06-2018, 03:51 PM
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This may be the wisest thing you have ever said on these boards.
I'm not sure if this makes me happy or sad
  #204  
Old 12-06-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AjŪ de Gallina View Post
Because, if you aren't an asshole, the false ones are the ones that worry you. You are happy they get all the bastards, but the ones against good guys are the ones that could, improbably, hit you.
Why are we non-assholes supposed to be not worried about the existence of lots of true accusations?

Why shouldn't we worry about the fact that a lot of people have suffered from the behavior that caused those true accusations? And why shouldn't we worry about whether all those true accusations are actually resulting in "getting all the bastards", as you put it? Because here in the real world, it is definitely not guaranteed that a true accusation will result in "getting the bastard".

ISTM that if we are only worried about being "hit" with a possible false accusation, and aren't giving a shit about the suffering experienced by the victims who are making all the true accusations, that is in fact somewhat indicative of being an asshole.
  #205  
Old 12-06-2018, 03:56 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is online now
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This is not true. Of all of the men I've known in my life including me, no accusations have ever been made. Either my circle of family and friends is extremely lucky, or alternatively, we aren't creeps that take liberties with women we work with. I'm going with option B.

It's not hard to not harass women. This is only a scary issue to men that have engaged in questionable behaviors in the past and are now worried that maybe some of the creepy stuff they've done may come to light.
Well then your damn lucky.



I know some women who are better dealing with men, even crude ones, than others. A crude male coworker would have to go pretty darn far before they would go to a manager.


Want to hear something funny? The women I know like this STILL prefer to work with men over other women because they will take make sexism and crudeness over other womens cattiness anyday.


Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc...
  #206  
Old 12-06-2018, 03:58 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Originally Posted by BrainFireBob View Post
False dichotomy.

I'm not saying "Don't believe women."
Okay... Then, as you said that "believe women" is the same as "don't believe men", then are you saying that you don't believe men?
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I'm saying that demonstrating how woke you are by insisting on action now, or that only dealing with things by going to HR instead of going first to the coworker themselves or their boss, is believing that women are never wrong, mistaken, or malicious, and that's not right.
I'm saying that demonstrating how edgy you are by complaining about people being "woke" enough to follow their company procedures is "not right."
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MeToo hasn't morphed into "believe all women," it's morphing into "If you don't take immediate action that's publicly visible, you're showing you don't believe women."
I disagree. I agree that there is hyperbolic reaction to a pretty simple concept that women should be treated with the same dignity and respect as you would a man that claims what you said, but that has less support to it than your feared accusations of misconduct.
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Pendulum's too far for justice and fairness. Particularly the public part bothers me. A private reprimand- or even a private "Hey Paul, someone took that remark as sexual and this is how and why. You understand that you shouldn't do that, even if it didn't used to be that way?" is acceptable to actually correct behavior. Even a "Hey, Paul, I find that kind of offensive." Not "Paul should be publically reprimanded."
And why are you saying that this doesn't happen any more?

You examples are high profile people, public figures with a reputation both for themselves, and those who pay them and provide them a platform. If they are subject to extended scrutiny, well, that is part of the price of the privilege of being a public figure.

But your claim here is that people are being "publicly reprimanded" or just being up and fired for a single claim, and that is just not true. You would get in quite a bit of trouble for doing something like that. You *do* need to show a pattern of behavior in order to fire someone with cause. that is what documentation of performance and discipline comes in. You may be used to fly by night workplaces where they don't follow procedures, and that may be what you are confused, and it that is the cae, I feel for you, but it is a problem that you are in an unprofessional work environment, not that professional work environments exist.

If someone steals from the office supply room, or from petty cash, and is accused, are they "publicly reprimanded?"
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I had a coworker rush another coworker to the hospital at 1am (we are 24 hour) with a heart attack because there was no-one on site that could use the defibrillator. Saved her life, apparently, but was a complete violation of the safety guidelines. So he had a private "Don't do that" from his boss, and we all had to take safety training. No names were ever named publically. That's a fair handling of an honest error.
Okay, and this anecdote pertains to what now?

I had an employee pass out and hit the floor a couple years ago. I called 911 and followed their instructions until EMTs arrived.

Ah workplace anecdotes. But, lets get back to the topic of the thread.
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https://quillette.com/2018/11/23/war...r-your-career/ This is an example of a generational reference being taken as sexualized, and therefore offensive. They investigated (fair), concluded he had done nothing inappropriate and she had misunderstood him (OK), and fired him anyway (ridiculous).
Right, they fired him after he followed all of their advice and instructions.

Err, wait, that's not what your cite says at all. It says that he complained about the complaint, and then refused to follow their instructions.

Hmmm, do you think that talking back and refusing to follow instructions from your boss goes well for your career? As whiny as that article was, I can certainly see why his superiors took an opportunity to get rid of him.
  #207  
Old 12-06-2018, 03:59 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is online now
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
Although he might think there was nothing wrong with it, that's just because he doesn't realize he's making a sexist comment. He likely only complements women and not men. He likely has never made a similar comment about a guy looking good in jeans. He may also do similar things like complement a woman coworker's hair, makeup, top, etc. Unless he is truly in the habit of complementing both men and women on their appearance, his "complements" likely have a sexual undertone.
Yes, I can see that. He should not have said it I agree especially where he worked. But I dont think its a firable offense and I feel if the women truly felt bad she should have told him privately first instead of running to HR.

HR should be the LAST resort instead of the first.
  #208  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:00 PM
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  #209  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:00 PM
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Jesus. We're really going with: "I don't harass women, so if a woman accused me of harassment it would be false, therefore I don't give a shit about true accusations of harassment, I only care about false accusations of harassment."

That's what we're doing?

And guess what? If you're the boss at a workplace, and your standard is that you'd rather dismiss 100 true harassment complaints than believe one false harassment complaint, then maybe being a boss is not for you.
  #210  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:01 PM
Airbeck Airbeck is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Well then your damn lucky.



I know some women who are better dealing with men, even crude ones, than others. A crude male coworker would have to go pretty darn far before they would go to a manager.


Want to hear something funny? The women I know like this STILL prefer to work with men over other women because they will take make sexism and crudeness over other womens cattiness anyday.


Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc...
Do you view all of your coworkers as "female coworker" or "male coworker", or do you just view all of your coworkers as just coworkers? If I'm telling a story to my family or friends about work I don't say "my female coworker did this" or "my male coworker said this". I simply say my coworker.
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  #211  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:02 PM
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My interpretation of the "Pence Rule" is about more than just avoiding sexual harassment allegations. It's also to avoid rumors/accusations/speculation of being involved in an affair. At least that's the main reason I've applied it.
The Pence Rule is actually more about the assumption that a man innocently being with a woman, even in a professional setting, is somehow an offense against his wife. It's not about liability or risk -- it's about a fringe Christian believe that sees women as having an agenda to tempt men into evil. It's just straight up, 100% sexism.

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  #212  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:03 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Well then your damn lucky.



I know some women who are better dealing with men, even crude ones, than others. A crude male coworker would have to go pretty darn far before they would go to a manager.
Yes, thee are many women who will tolerate sexual harassment without complaint. That's not actually good thing.
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Want to hear something funny? The women I know like this STILL prefer to work with men over other women because they will take make sexism and crudeness over other womens cattiness anyday.
As well as working with men means that they have opportunities for raises, promotions, and advancement of their career.
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Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc...
Hmmm, we keep different company. I've seen women who tolerate sexual harassment because otherwise, they don't have a job, but I've never, ever, met a woman like you last described.

Do they tell you this, or is it your assumption as to why they make these accusations that you refuse to believe?
  #213  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:04 PM
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Right, they fired him after he followed all of their advice and instructions.

Err, wait, that's not what your cite says at all. It says that he complained about the complaint, and then refused to follow their instructions.

Hmmm, do you think that talking back and refusing to follow instructions from your boss goes well for your career? As whiny as that article was, I can certainly see why his superiors took an opportunity to get rid of him.
Are you sure he got fired? I don't see that in the article or other articles about that incident.
  #214  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:07 PM
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Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc...
Really?

Really?
  #215  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:09 PM
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Yes, I can see that. He should not have said it I agree especially where he worked. But I dont think its a firable offense and I feel if the women truly felt bad she should have told him privately first instead of running to HR.

HR should be the LAST resort instead of the first.
So, a person is creeping someone out in the workplace, and it is on the person who feels threatened or intimidated by the person to confront that person.

No, that is exactly the reason that we have HR. I explicitly tell my employees that if they have a complaint about another employee, they should bring it to me or another manager, not to deal with it themselves. Employees handling work related social issues *never* turns out well. I mean, sometimes it works out well for the bully, but never for the victim.

And it is not a fireable offense. If one of my employees came and complained about a sexual harassment issue, I would document it with them. then I would talk to the individual, and document it with them. I would let them know what is and is not acceptable in the workplace, and how in cases like this, perception is reality.

After I have had a documented conversation with him about social interactions in the workplace, then if he does it again, *then* it is a fireable offense.

If he really got fired for the first time out of the blue like that, you should talk to him about collecting unemployment. If what you say is true of his situation, he would easily win.
  #216  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:11 PM
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Are you sure he got fired? I don't see that in the article or other articles about that incident.
I was taking the posters word on it. I saw that he was censured, but I really didn't investigate the article too hard, as it was just whining and whining.

If he wasn't even fired, then not only was the poster I was responding to sorely mistaken, but the person he is defending is even more of a whiner.
  #217  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:11 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is online now
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
The Pence Rule is actually more about the assumption that a man innocently being with a woman, even in a professional setting, is somehow an offense against his wife. It's not about liability or risk -- it's about a fringe Christian believe that sees women as having an agenda to tempt men into evil. It's just straight up, 100% sexism.
Well, okay. That might be true. I had my own version of the "Pence Rule" long before anyone had ever heard of Mike Pence, and it wasn't based on all that.

My mistake for using that term in this thread, I guess.
  #218  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I was taking the posters word on it. I saw that he was censured, but I really didn't investigate the article too hard, as it was just whining and whining.

If he wasn't even fired, then not only was the poster I was responding to sorely mistaken, but the person he is defending is even more of a whiner.
That's cool, I was just wondering if I didn't see it. But yes, the posters characterization of the article is ridiculous.
  #219  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:13 PM
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Because we both know no one here would actually say, "I think due process is dumb and we should not do it," and we both know that.

But people here are content with #MeToo as it is which, I have already showed, runs roughshod over due process.
And who are you accusing of dissembling in this fashion? Are your accusations with merit, or are you making them with no evidence?

If I say to a woman, "Hey, you are looking good in that short skirt." then apparently that should be interpreted as simply a neutral observation about her appearance.

But, if here, in a thread, we say that we shouldn't dismissis women's stories and experiences out of hand, that is saying that "I think due process is dumb and we should not do it,"

With that sort of accusation so quick at your fingertips, it is small wonder that you believe that others are as quick to accuse, and with as little evidence.
  #220  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:20 PM
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"Because standards are changing and there's no longer a presupposition of innocent error, business people are ensuring that even conversations about the weather can't happen when there's a chance of an unintended slipup."
But, once again, the available evidence we have, however tentative, indicates that false allegations are really rare. At least within the legal system, we're looking at 2-10% of rape allegations being false - which, given the rarity of such allegations to begin with, leads to a very low number. If there is any evidence that false allegations of harassment are common in business environments, I have yet to see it. In terms of things to worry about at work, "I might be falsely accused of harassment" has no business being near the top of anyone's list. It's like if stewardesses' biggest fear on the job was being murdered by a passenger while en route - we'd be laughing at them, mocking them for being afraid of ghosts.

And yet, here we have a bunch of (allegedly) adult men pissing themselves over the idea that this could happen to them, and instituting harmful, sexist social rules to avoid any risk. Maybe it's just male fragility (analogue to white fragility) - they're so used to never having to deal with any kind of gender-based risk that the moment something they can remotely relate to turns up, it freaks them the hell out. Over what? How often does this happen? And given that men report being sexually harassed at work at a rate of about 10%, why aren't we implementing the Pence Rule towards men as well? And let's not get started on things like workplace bullying, where men are far more likely to be bullied by men than by women - and we know workplace bullying is a thing that actually happens with some regularity.

This whole thing is a bit like never hiring black people because they're technically more likely to be criminals - it's using bad statistics to gin up a mostly-fabricated fear that makes things worse for a marginalized group.
  #221  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BrainFireBob View Post


https://quillette.com/2018/11/23/war...r-your-career/ This is an example of a generational reference being taken as sexualized, and therefore offensive. They investigated (fair), concluded he had done nothing inappropriate and she had misunderstood him (OK), and fired him anyway (ridiculous).
Is this all we have?

this is an example of an anecdote. Do you know this person? Am I supposed to take his word (seemingly self-serving) that his version of events are accurate? You seem willing to.

If they investigated him and found he did not act inappropriately and fired him anyway, I would expect that this would be actionable. Has he filed a lawsuit?

Or is it possible that his firing actually had nothing to do with inappropriate comment?
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  #222  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Okay... Then, as you said that "believe women" is the same as "don't believe men", then are you saying that you don't believe men?
Ah.

Before addressing the rest, please confirm where I said this. I didn't, you have me confused with another poster, I believe. I'd ask you re-read my comments in the thread stripped of the association, because I'm fairly certain I didn't say that.
  #223  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:29 PM
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I was taking the posters word on it. I saw that he was censured, but I really didn't investigate the article too hard, as it was just whining and whining.

If he wasn't even fired, then not only was the poster I was responding to sorely mistaken, but the person he is defending is even more of a whiner.
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/departmen...ors/lebow.aspx

His bio is still on the King's College website. So... has his life been destroyed by this case?
  #224  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:32 PM
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MeToo hasn't morphed into "believe all women," it's morphing into "If you don't take immediate action that's publicly visible, you're showing you don't believe women."
...#metoo has always been about something very simple. "I hear your story. It happened to me too." Its always been about solidarity. About empowering. About showing the scale of the problem of sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape in our society.

And one of the reasons sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape are at near epidemic proportions in society is because as a society we like to pretend that all these bad things didn't and don't happen. So making the process more transparent, making the process more accessible and having a process that strives to not "punish" either party prior to the end of the investigation is one of the things that, to be quite frank, has to happen.

So if #metoo has morphed into taking "immediate action that's publicly visible" (the reality though is that it hasn't "morphed" into anything) then I don't know how you can argue thats a bad thing. The pendulum has never been "at the middle." Its always been very far away from justice and what is "fair." If you don't understand that: then you really don't understand what #metoo is all about.
  #225  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:38 PM
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And one of the reasons sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape are at near epidemic proportions in society is because as a society we like to pretend that all these bad things didn't and don't happen.
Or that when they do happen, they're not really that big a deal, or that they're just natural behavior for men, or that women aren't using the right behavior to prevent them, or that women aren't using the right behavior to stop them, or that women are at fault for not avoiding them, or that women are at fault for taking them too seriously, or any or all of the above.
  #226  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:43 PM
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But, once again, the available evidence we have, however tentative, indicates that false allegations are really rare. At least within the legal system, we're looking at 2-10% of rape allegations being false - which, given the rarity of such allegations to begin with, leads to a very low number. If there is any evidence that false allegations of harassment are common in business environments, I have yet to see it. In terms of things to worry about at work, "I might be falsely accused of harassment" has no business being near the top of anyone's list. It's like if stewardesses' biggest fear on the job was being murdered by a passenger while en route - we'd be laughing at them, mocking them for being afraid of ghosts.

And yet, here we have a bunch of (allegedly) adult men pissing themselves over the idea that this could happen to them, and instituting harmful, sexist social rules to avoid any risk. Maybe it's just male fragility (analogue to white fragility) - they're so used to never having to deal with any kind of gender-based risk that the moment something they can remotely relate to turns up, it freaks them the hell out. Over what? How often does this happen? And given that men report being sexually harassed at work at a rate of about 10%, why aren't we implementing the Pence Rule towards men as well? And let's not get started on things like workplace bullying, where men are far more likely to be bullied by men than by women - and we know workplace bullying is a thing that actually happens with some regularity.

This whole thing is a bit like never hiring black people because they're technically more likely to be criminals - it's using bad statistics to gin up a mostly-fabricated fear that makes things worse for a marginalized group.
Three comments.

1) The sexual assault figure, in addition to being in dispute for various reasons (ie, 2-10% not being small, 2-10% only being the provably falsifiable, etc.) doesn't apply to harassment complaints. Those are numbers for assault. That's like counting elephants in Africa and coming to a conclusion about pandas in China.
2) I alluded to this earlier and am bringing it back up: Generational standards aren't the same. This isn't saying that older people are off the hook for inappropriate behavior, but behavior that they were literally trained was fine decades ago- "Don't slap your secretary's ass, but telling you like her new haircut is OK" is now not OK "Indicating you like her haircut implies sexual attraction!" The executives doing the disinviting aren't the young people. Standards have changed in the last two decades, and any system has relaxation time! For human systems, it's 13 years for changes to primary education, minimum, but what, 40 years for the workplace? *Words* have literally had their meanings shift- telling anyone they can do anything is, last I was informed, an expression of white privilege and a racial microaggression, to use a racial example, when ten years ago it was a ... pep talk?
3) The issue isn't the probability of false claims, it's the degree of the personal and political backlash suffered. As a society, we've begun to embrace the old adage "There's no smoke without fire" without restraint; that's a concern.

Because I'm short on time: I cross remembered the link without reviewing. This gentlemen was censured. I was conflating him with the British scientist that was hit a couple years back. That was sloppy, I apologize for that.
  #227  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:19 PM
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There is quite an easy fix to avoid all these errors: Don't talk about non-work stuff at work.
Iíve never had a job or heard of a job where being an asocial robot was the norm.
  #228  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:53 PM
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Iíve never had a job or heard of a job where being an asocial robot was the norm.
...well he did say it was an "easy fix." The more difficult fix, to but it bluntly, is more difficult, but ultimately more rewarding for everyone. But if you are having trouble discerning what is and what isn't appropriate behavior in the workplace, then perhaps the "easy fix" is the best way forward.
  #229  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:02 PM
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Iíve never had a job or heard of a job where being an asocial robot was the norm.
Youíve never heard of the software industry?
  #230  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:02 PM
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Ah.

Before addressing the rest, please confirm where I said this. I didn't, you have me confused with another poster, I believe. I'd ask you re-read my comments in the thread stripped of the association, because I'm fairly certain I didn't say that.
No, not confused with another poster. you said:

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No, it's the attendant "believe all women" meme, not that a substantial number of accusations are false.
First, you mistake the theme. It's not "believe all women", it's just "believe women".
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It's that accusations are to instantly be treated as true or as evidence of a crime, regardless of male behavior.
This is untrue. it is only that they be treated seriously and not dismissed nor automatically disbelieved.
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Since women span the same gamut of law-abiding to criminal that men do as a gestalt group, even a man who has done absolutely nothing can face a false accusation.
Which is why you can't belive women, amiright?
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This happened to a college student in the last few years- his face was plastered all over campus as something like "Rapist of the Month"; he was essentially randomly pictured (no rape, he was in fact a virgin) to "bring attention to the problem" by an activist group. While straightened out formally, the social impacts can and do last.
When I was in first grade, someone made up a rumour that I had picked my nose and put the booger on page 52 of my science text book. While I straightened it out formally, there were social impacts that could and did last.
Quote:
Is it likely that any individual woman will make a false accusation, or an accusation based on incomplete context? Absolutely not.
Agreed, here.
Quote:
Are there women who will? A small minority. Is there any way of identifying who might wield this power arbitrarily?
So, what can we do? Oh, I know. Don't believe women!
Quote:
Nope, not unless they've developed such a pattern and documentation to this extent is provable (Tawana Bradley's escalating accusations against men who poked holes in her story, her identifying as rapists the men it was most convenient for her to have raped her in an escalating story is such a pattern). Solution: Avoid the situation, eliminate the risk.
Ah, even better than not believing the women, marginalizing them is a better solution. Then they are not even around to not be believed.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 12-06-2018 at 06:02 PM.
  #231  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:15 PM
BrainFireBob BrainFireBob is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
No, not confused with another poster. you said:


First, you mistake the theme. It's not "believe all women", it's just "believe women".

This is untrue. it is only that they be treated seriously and not dismissed nor automatically disbelieved.

Which is why you can't belive women, amiright?

When I was in first grade, someone made up a rumour that I had picked my nose and put the booger on page 52 of my science text book. While I straightened it out formally, there were social impacts that could and did last.

Agreed, here.

So, what can we do? Oh, I know. Don't believe women!


Ah, even better than not believing the women, marginalizing them is a better solution. Then they are not even around to not be believed.
You're creating a false dichotomy, where if one doesn't just "believe all women", it becomes "don't believe women." That's a strawman, pure and simple.

Take the accusation seriously- but discretely until resolved. Honest mistakes and honest miscommunications do in fact occur, and so do malicious claims. We're agreed there.

The prominent virtue signaling surrounding #MeToo has made it more than merely "believe women." Anyone that didn't things seriously when an allegation was leveled is an idiot. That doesn't mean we should create a public shame list of accusations, with no vetting as to their truth or content, and given that such a list exists and there is a power of "moral-suasion" being assigned to women who have such an experience to confess, you're tempting exploiters who want the notoriety- like the woman who claimed she wrote the Kavanaugh letter because she wanted the attention.
  #232  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:17 PM
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Why cant you use adult language?
What?
  #233  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:17 PM
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The prominent virtue signaling surrounding #MeToo has made it more than merely "believe women." Anyone that didn't things seriously when an allegation was leveled is an idiot. That doesn't mean we should create a public shame list of accusations, with no vetting as to their truth or content, and given that such a list exists and there is a power of "moral-suasion" being assigned to women who have such an experience to confess, you're tempting exploiters who want the notoriety- like the woman who claimed she wrote the Kavanaugh letter because she wanted the attention.
...here's a question for you: why do you think these "public shame lists" started?
  #234  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:51 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainFireBob
Solution: Avoid the situation, eliminate the risk.
Ah, even better than not believing the women, marginalizing them is a better solution. Then they are not even around to not be believed.
What's especially baffling about this viewpoint is: If you think women should be marginalized and shunned because of the comparatively tiny risk that a woman might falsely accuse a man of committing sexual misconduct, then why don't you think men should be marginalized and shunned because of the comparatively much greater risk that a man will actually commit sexual misconduct?

Even here there is general agreement that sexual assault and harassment is actually a much worse problem than false accusations of sexual assault and harassment. So I guess the guys moaning about how it's too dangerous to keep women in the workplace, because there's a chance one of them might falsely accuse somebody, would concur that it's even more dangerous to keep men in the workplace because there's a much greater chance that one of them will assault or harass somebody?

If men shouldn't have to put up with a small risk of women falsely accusing them, why should women have to put up with a much larger risk of men assaulting or harassing them? Let's get the men segregated into their blue-collar-ghetto jobs, under competent female supervision of course, and leave the positions of power and authority to the women who are statistically far more likely to be able to keep their hands off non-consenting co-workers and employees.

And furthermore, when all the men are safely segregated in the lower-status maintenance/service/etc. jobs and all the women are safe in the boardrooms and operating rooms and so forth, it will be much more difficult for a woman to falsely accuse a man of sexually misbehaving with her. Win-win!

There is no logically consistent reason why men who advocate shunning and excluding women from an integrated workforce, due to the potential danger of their making false accusations, shouldn't be even more on board with shunning and excluding men because of the far greater dangers their behavior poses.
  #235  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:59 PM
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Knowing someone who was demonstrably accused falsely of sexual harassment "cancels" one hundred real ones.
Do you not realize how utterly horrible that is? You just admitted that, because of a single false accusation, which only resulted in the guy having to change jobs, it's okay for 100 women to be raped. Their lives are permanently ruined, while your guy can just leave and move on.

Quote:
I don't care how few the false accusations are, if it's against me it's 100%.
And that is the core problem. It's all about you. Since you aren't worried about being raped, you don't care about rape. There is an extremely rare chance you might be falsely accused, so you do care about that.

And, since you don't care about women, it's really hard for me to give a crap if you feel like you can't talk to women anymore. It keeps you from being afraid, and they are better off not forming any attachment to someone who doesn't care about them and whether they get raped.

What you have described is exactly why so many of us have a lack of sympathy about people troubled by the #MeToo movement.
  #236  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:21 PM
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What's especially baffling about this viewpoint is: If you think women should be marginalized and shunned because of the comparatively tiny risk that a woman might falsely accuse a man of committing sexual misconduct, then why don't you think men should be marginalized and shunned because of the comparatively much greater risk that a man will actually commit sexual misconduct?
To be fair, that last line in your quote is not from BrainFireBob.

I was part of the quoted sarcasm from k9bfriender
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  #237  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:22 PM
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You're creating a false dichotomy, where if one doesn't just "believe all women", it becomes "don't believe women." That's a strawman, pure and simple.

Take the accusation seriously- but discretely until resolved. Honest mistakes and honest miscommunications do in fact occur, and so do malicious claims. We're agreed there.

The prominent virtue signaling surrounding #MeToo has made it more than merely "believe women." Anyone that didn't things seriously when an allegation was leveled is an idiot. That doesn't mean we should create a public shame list of accusations, with no vetting as to their truth or content, and given that such a list exists and there is a power of "moral-suasion" being assigned to women who have such an experience to confess, you're tempting exploiters who want the notoriety- like the woman who claimed she wrote the Kavanaugh letter because she wanted the attention.
Sigh. Virtue signalling is not a thing. It is a term made up by the right to say that the left doesn't actually hold the values they say they hold. It's all just for show. And the concept here is particularly nonsensical, since saying that this is about virtue signaling would mean that the #MeToo movement don't care about rape and are only doing it in order to look good.

No, the woman who wrote the Kavinaugh letter didn't say she wanted attention. She said she was angry. She was angry that the Ford allegation was not being taken seriously. And because the only way that these things get taken seriously is if there are multiple accusations, so she gave one. Is that right? No. But trying to blame that on notoriety is ridiculous.

Keeping things discreet is why nothing ever happened. It's why Weinstein got away with it so long. Because not responding to allegations was entirely normal and how everything was dealt with. It was kept under wraps.

So #MeToo shines the light on all this crap. We bring it public, because that is literally the only thing that gets these people to actually give a shit. The stuff they would have just swept under the rug, they can no longer do so.

You might as well say that everyone molested in the Catholic Church should remain quiet and let them investigate. Staying quiet doesn't work. Staying discreet means justice is not served. Getting the public involved is the only reason why this shit is actually now being dealt with.

And the only "list" is a list of people who we personally have evaluated the evidence we've seen and decided that the allegations against them are credible. That's the same for literally every other kind of accusation out there. Trying to act like rape is special and should be kept quiet not only fails as a tactic, but is ethically inconsistent.

No one says that you should keep quiet about murder accusations until the person is found guilty of murder.

Last edited by BigT; 12-06-2018 at 07:25 PM.
  #238  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:27 PM
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To be fair, that last line in your quote is not from BrainFireBob.

I was part of the quoted sarcasm from k9bfriender
Yes, that was indicated by the nested quotes in my post. Didn't those quotes show up as nested? They do for me
  #239  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:46 PM
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Well then your damn lucky.



I know some women who are better dealing with men, even crude ones, than others. A crude male coworker would have to go pretty darn far before they would go to a manager.


Want to hear something funny? The women I know like this STILL prefer to work with men over other women because they will take make sexism and crudeness over other womens cattiness anyday.


Then I know other women who will accuse almost each and every man they work with in order to get a reaction, get a promotion, get sympathy, etc...
I think this encapsulates the attitude toward women by many of those who see #Metoo as Antifa for women--or maybe ISIS would be a better example. It starts with the stereotypes we see above and in this thread:

catty
devious
hypersensitive
overreactive

OR

They're good girls who take sexual harassment as a compliment and appreciate it, as good girls should. But geez, even THOSE women might take off a mask to reveal...a #Metoo-er!

If you believe those stereotypes, it's a short step to "Oh, my God! The women! You look cross-eyed at 'em, and you get a sexual harassment charge that will end your career! You don't even have to look at 'em! One of 'em could just be bored one day, pick your name out of the company directory, and the next thing you know, you're out on your keester!" Maybe the real problem is that those so strongly opposed to #Metoo, so adamant that men falsely accused of sexual harassment is not simply a problem to be acknowledged but one more important than sexual harassment itself, view women as the unknowable Other.

If this is how you see women, if you truly believe men getting falsely accused of sexual harassment is not simply an issue, however infrequent, to be acknowledged but more important than sexual harassment, itself, then your own distorted perceptions are the reason for your fear and outrage, not #Metoo.
  #240  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:29 PM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Iíve never had a job or heard of a job where being an asocial robot was the norm.
Actually doing work while you are at work makes one an "asocial robot"? Strange.

If you have friends at work, that you see outside of work, then sure, talk about non-work stuff. Colleagues that you don't hang out with after work, or subordinates? Treat them professionally, which means keep it work related. You never heard of "professional behavior" before?
  #241  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:43 PM
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https://quillette.com/2018/11/23/war...r-your-career/ This is an example of a generational reference being taken as sexualized, and therefore offensive. They investigated (fair), concluded he had done nothing inappropriate and she had misunderstood him (OK), and fired him anyway (ridiculous).
Have you re-read that link to see how your summary of it might be a little off?
  #242  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:11 PM
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#metoo exists because the old way of “just believing some women when they deserve to be believed” didn’t work. Just talking to the person instead of tattling to HR didn’t work. Appeals to existing structures didn’t work.

Everyone’s suggestions for what to do instead of #metoo-world solutions are ultimately about going back to the status quo. That’s not an option. Believing women only when they could prove it was a failure. It created a society where assault and gender inequality is the norm; where men act out sexually towards women who are powerless to stop it.

Unless and until we’re willing to, as a general rule, believe women and look skeptically at the men who deny, we will tacetly be supporting assault and rape.
  #243  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:42 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is offline
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#metoo exists because the old way of ďjust believing some women when they deserve to be believedĒ didnít work. Just talking to the person instead of tattling to HR didnít work. Appeals to existing structures didnít work.

Everyoneís suggestions for what to do instead of #metoo-world solutions are ultimately about going back to the status quo. Thatís not an option. Believing women only when they could prove it was a failure. It created a society where assault and gender inequality is the norm; where men act out sexually towards women who are powerless to stop it.

Unless and until weíre willing to, as a general rule, believe women and look skeptically at the men who deny, we will tacetly be supporting assault and rape.
Judging from the replies on the Christine Blasey Ford thread, you're probably going to hear that nobody should believe women unless there is evidence. Of course, sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape often don't leave incontrovertible evidence, which makes it easy for them to deny it happens. They'd rather believe that women who speak up are hysterical liars than deal with the issue, itself.

And you can tell them until the cows come home that it's about believing women, not persecuting men, but it won't do any good. Apparently they believe no business is aware of wrongful discharge suits and that every business owner who hears of one incident from one woman fires the accused post haste and without investigation. As I said earlier, it's all about how they view women in general.
  #244  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:59 PM
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When I was in first grade, someone made up a rumour that I had picked my nose and put the booger on page 52 of my science text book. While I straightened it out formally, there were social impacts that could and did last.
Iím sure being a falsely accused booger-picker was very traumatic for you. Almost as traumatic as being a falsely accused rapist.

Oh, wait... Thatís not the same thing at all! Silly me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eonwe
#metoo exists because the old way of ďjust believing some women when they deserve to be believedĒ didnít work.
I believe people who make credible accusations supported by evidence. I do not believe people whose accusations are not credible or contradicted by evidence. I fail to understand what is wrong with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eonwe
Believing women only when they could prove it was a failure.
Yeah, turns out it is WAAAY easier to convict somebody when you donít need to actually prove your case.
  #245  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:10 PM
JB99 JB99 is offline
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Judging from the replies on the Christine Blasey Ford thread, you're probably going to hear that nobody should believe women unless there is evidence. Of course, sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape often don't leave incontrovertible evidence, which makes it easy for them to deny it happens. They'd rather believe that women who speak up are hysterical liars than deal with the issue, itself.
Iím sorry to say this but... duh. If something has no evidence, that makes it pretty hard to believe in it. That definitely makes it hard to justify firing or prosecuting someone.

Quote:
And you can tell them until the cows come home that it's about believing women, not persecuting men, but it won't do any good.
I understand the difference. I just fail to comprehend why I would believe something without evidence.

Quote:
Apparently they believe no business is aware of wrongful discharge suits and that every business owner who hears of one incident from one woman fires the accused post haste and without investigation. As I said earlier, it's all about how they view women in general.
Google ďMike NifongĒ and see what you get.
  #246  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:19 PM
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I believe people who make credible accusations supported by evidence. I do not believe people whose accusations are not credible or contradicted by evidence. I fail to understand what is wrong with that.
What’s wrong is that your method leaves us with a society where gender-based workplace and social inequities abound, and where sexual assault and harassment are routine experiences for most women.

Whatever kind of fairness and logic you think you’re applying, it in fact ends up facilitating those experiences of women and the causal behaviors of men.

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Originally Posted by JB99 View Post
Yeah, turns out it is WAAAY easier to convict somebody when you don’t need to actually prove your case.
I’m not talking about convicting people in a court of law, and you know that. Don’t pretend I’m saying something I’m not.

Last edited by Eonwe; 12-06-2018 at 11:22 PM.
  #247  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:22 PM
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I understand the difference. I just fail to comprehend why I would believe something without evidence.
You believe all sorts of things ďwithout evidenceĒ on a daily basis. Itís a fundamental necessity of human interaction.
  #248  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:30 PM
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Actually doing work while you are at work makes one an "asocial robot"? Strange.

If you have friends at work, that you see outside of work, then sure, talk about non-work stuff. Colleagues that you don't hang out with after work, or subordinates? Treat them professionally, which means keep it work related. You never heard of "professional behavior" before?
Like I said never been in one of those mythical work environments.
  #249  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:36 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Google ďMike NifongĒ and see what you get.
I get references to an unethical prosecutor who exploited and sabotaged a rape indictment that was based on a false accusation, and who was eventually disbarred, sued and bankrupted for his conduct.

I'm not sure why you think that supports your argument.
  #250  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:38 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Like I said never been in one of those mythical work environments.
Never been in one of those "mythical" work environments where people actually do work while they're at work?

Well, that could explain why your total SDMB post number is nearly one-third of mine even though I've been on these boards over six times as long as you.
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