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Old 12-21-2018, 10:50 AM
bizerta bizerta is offline
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The five billion dollar wall

Trump wants five billion dollars to pay for the wall. Why isn't anyone saying, "Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall."?

We know Trump does not have the authority to spend Mexico's money, but why doesn't anyone call him on his promise.

Last edited by bizerta; 12-21-2018 at 10:52 AM.
  #2  
Old 12-21-2018, 10:59 AM
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I have some basic questions:

There must be some kind of fence or wall in place now. How effective is it?

If it is not 100% effective, then how bad is the problem, and is it worth spending billions on fixing it?

(Trump wants 5B, but that's just the start)
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:03 AM
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He already has his set of excuses in place. "Oh, they will pay for it eventually". "Oh, they will pay for it indirectly." More empty shyster salesman BS that explains it just fine for his followers.
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:14 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Trump already said that his new NAFTA deal would make so much extra money for the US that Mexico is paying for the wall.

There. Problem solved.
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by K364 View Post
I have some basic questions:

There must be some kind of fence or wall in place now. How effective is it?

Answer: Not very.


Quote:
“Overall, we find that the additional fencing had a very small effect on migration and an overall negative effect on the economy,” said Morten, an assistant professor of economics and faculty fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research (SIEPR). “The wall was expensive to U.S. taxpayers – they paid roughly $7 per person – but saw little to no economic benefits as a result. Some even saw their welfare fall.”

The wall did not significantly curtail migration, according to the research. Using data from Mexican consulates on the flow of adult Mexican citizens who migrated between 2006 and 2010, the researchers estimated that the wall expansion reduced the total number of Mexican-born workers coming into the United States by only 0.6 percent, roughly 83,000 people.

Further analysis showed that the expansion of the wall largely harmed American workers. College-educated U.S. workers lost an equivalent of $4.35 in annual income, while less-educated U.S. workers benefited on average by only 36 cents. Taken together, “the costs far outweigh the benefits, even for low-skilled workers in the U.S.,” Morten said.
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:07 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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The big issue with fencing or a wall is the border is just massive, in some areas it cannot be effectively constructed (we actually have some parts of the border that are bodies of water, some are mountainous), and in areas where it is constructed the border is so huge that it's not like we have Border Patrol agents watching every mile of the border. What this means is you often times have upwards of 20 minutes or more before Border Patrol shows up to get through the existing fencing. There's a lot of ways to do this pretty quickly.

Additionally, in several spots people have actually dug underground tunnels that authorities don't detect for a long time and that smuggle lots of people in.

It's not impossible to make a border almost impossible to get through (look at the DMZ in Korea), but the costs/effort/negative side effects of such a thing would be enormous.
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:11 PM
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Additionally, in several spots people have actually dug underground tunnels that authorities don't detect for a long time and that smuggle lots of people in.

It's not impossible to make a border almost impossible to get through (look at the DMZ in Korea), but the costs/effort/negative side effects of such a thing would be enormous.
Tunnels under the DMZ.
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:14 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:24 PM
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I've heard that not only is the current wall and fencing not effective, they are actually negatively effective. The roads they had to construct to get in to erect the barrier have made progress once inside the barriers much easier. So the immigrants can further into the U.S. more readily.
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:49 PM
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$5 billion sounds like a drastically low estimate. That's around two thousand miles of border, a project that will take well over a decade, thousands of workers who must be housed, fed, protected, paid, etc., private property along the wall that must be acquired, and so forth. I'd be surprised if it were finished for anything less than $30 billion.
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Old 12-21-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bizerta View Post
Trump wants five billion dollars to pay for the wall. Why isn't anyone saying, "Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall."?

We know Trump does not have the authority to spend Mexico's money, but why doesn't anyone call him on his promise.
I say it to anyone who brings it up. Granted it's usually me shaking my fist at the tv. But, hey, I do my bit.
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Old 12-21-2018, 02:17 PM
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Serious question...do we provide foreign aid to Mexico? (I assume we do). If we were supposed to give them, say $5b over the next 15 years, why can't the U.S. just say "Nah, we need that money to build a wall."

I'm not saying I agree to such an approach (I don't), but it would seem to solve a number of problems. It "finds" $5b without raising taxes or shifting money from U.S. funding recipients. Plus Trump could point to how Mexico was indeed paying for the wall.

It seems so simple, I must be missing something obvious.
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Old 12-21-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bizerta View Post
Trump wants five billion dollars to pay for the wall. Why isn't anyone saying, "Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall."?

We know Trump does not have the authority to spend Mexico's money, but why doesn't anyone call him on his promise.
A lot of people are asking him that. The problem is, his base isn’t asking him that, and he only listens to his base.
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Old 12-21-2018, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by K364 View Post
I have some basic questions:

There must be some kind of fence or wall in place now. How effective is it?

If it is not 100% effective, then how bad is the problem, and is it worth spending billions on fixing it?

(Trump wants 5B, but that's just the start)
It's moderately effective, it is mostly there to keep drugs out.

https://www.politifact.com/californi...e-and-half-us/

Trumps wall would cost $21B and $150M a year for maintenance.

Of course it could cost more, maybe $70B.

This is grandstanding. Trump could get the GOP to slip that $5B in for drug interdiction, and it would sail thru.
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Old 12-21-2018, 02:41 PM
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Bob Page: What do you mean, almost?

Last edited by ricksummon; 12-21-2018 at 02:42 PM. Reason: bold fixed
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by divemaster View Post
Serious question...do we provide foreign aid to Mexico? (I assume we do). If we were supposed to give them, say $5b over the next 15 years, why can't the U.S. just say "Nah, we need that money to build a wall."

I'm not saying I agree to such an approach (I don't), but it would seem to solve a number of problems. It "finds" $5b without raising taxes or shifting money from U.S. funding recipients. Plus Trump could point to how Mexico was indeed paying for the wall.

It seems so simple, I must be missing something obvious.
It would seem you give the Mexico USD 290 mln a year and it is for the anti drug trafficking... (there are some useful graphics for comparisons).

It seems a bit silly.
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by divemaster View Post
Serious question...do we provide foreign aid to Mexico? (I assume we do). If we were supposed to give them, say $5b over the next 15 years, why can't the U.S. just say "Nah, we need that money to build a wall."

I'm not saying I agree to such an approach (I don't), but it would seem to solve a number of problems. It "finds" $5b without raising taxes or shifting money from U.S. funding recipients. Plus Trump could point to how Mexico was indeed paying for the wall.

It seems so simple, I must be missing something obvious.
What you're chiefly missing AFAICT [ETA: as Ramira just pointed out] is that US aid to Mexico is given overwhelmingly for purposes that the US supports for its own benefit, chiefly involving law enforcement and the narcotics trade. (And with the new proposed multi-billion-dollar aid initiative, those purposes also embrace the tightening of Mexico's southern border, which is partly aimed at reducing illegal immigration into the US.)

The amount of money that the US gives to Mexico for purposes that might in the most generous interpretation be deemed purely "altruistic" is comparatively minuscule, maybe a couple million dollars a year. You're not saving up for a border wall out of that kind of couch-cushion change.

Last edited by Kimstu; 12-21-2018 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:13 PM
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It's moderately effective, it is mostly there to keep drugs out.

https://www.politifact.com/californi...e-and-half-us/

Trumps wall would cost $21B and $150M a year for maintenance.

Of course it could cost more, maybe $70B.

This is grandstanding. Trump could get the GOP to slip that $5B in for drug interdiction, and it would sail thru.
Seems like it would be more cost effective to just buy the drugs outright and then destroy them before they get to the US. Fights the war on drugs and no need for the wall. Anyone know the $$ value of the drugs coming across the border now? Is it anywhere in the neighborhood of $5B (not to mention the yearly maintenance costs thereafter)? Or is this whole wall/drugs thing a smokescreen for just keeping poor brown people out of the US?
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:19 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Originally Posted by bizerta View Post
Trump wants five billion dollars to pay for the wall. Why isn't anyone saying, "Hey, Mr. President, you promised that Mexico would pay for the wall."?

We know Trump does not have the authority to spend Mexico's money, but why doesn't anyone call him on his promise.
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Originally Posted by Hampshire View Post
He already has his set of excuses in place. "Oh, they will pay for it eventually". "Oh, they will pay for it indirectly." More empty shyster salesman BS that explains it just fine for his followers.
I think you all are being just a bit literal here. If a guy shoots out my window and I declare that "He will pay for that window!" and the next day I am at Home Depot buying a new window to replace it, should my wife ask why I am buying the window when I promised that the criminal would pay?

The OP admits that we have no power, short of invasion, sacking, and pillaging to make Mexico directly pay up front for the wall. So the idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road doesn't seem like an excuse, but something implicit in the statement.

Now, if we will or ever do that, who knows? But it is not like we should have taken that statement literally as everyone knows that it could not happen.

Last edited by UltraVires; 12-21-2018 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires
The OP admits that we have no power, short of invasion, sacking, and pillaging to make Mexico directly pay up front for the wall. So the idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road doesn't seem like an excuse, but something implicit in the statement.

Now, if we will or ever do that, who knows?
The "idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road", when we have no more power to compel any "payment or an offset down the road" than we do to compel payment up-front, is not "implicit" in the statement at all.

It's an empty promise, and it doesn't become less empty just because you're trying to apply it to some unspecified future time rather than to the present.

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But it is not like we should have taken that statement literally as everyone knows that it could not happen.
Typical Trump defense. His supporters praise him for being "straightforward" and "telling it like it is" until the falsity of his statements is fully exposed, at which point they switch to chiding his critics for having taken his statements "too literally".
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:30 PM
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A lot of people are asking him that. The problem is, his base isn’t asking him that, and he only listens to his base.
What you say is all true, however, I did hear a conversation on NPR today with a conservative member of congress who wanted the Democrats to agree to fund the wall, and when the host asked him about Mexico paying for it several times, he did say in several different ways "that's a fair question," without trying to dance around it by saying "they'll pay for it because we're getting so tough!" But then of course he immediately pivoted to "we need security theater border security regardless of who pays for it".

Now, whether his base is the same as Trump's base is another story.
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:34 PM
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If a guy shoots out my window and I declare that "He will pay for that window!" and the next day I am at Home Depot buying a new window to replace it, should my wife ask why I am buying the window when I promised that the criminal would pay?
A more accurate analogy would be if you decide to put up a fence between your property and your neighbor's and declare "He will pay for that fence!", although he's stated repeatedly that he has no intention of paying for it and isn't in any way responsible for it.

Yes, in that situation if your wife finds you at Home Depot buying fencing materials, it makes a lot of sense for her to ask you why the hell you're buying the fence if you expect the neighbor to pay for it.

Because unlike the other hypothetical situation where a criminal is held legally and financially responsible for shooting out your window, your unilateral decision to build a fence around your property doesn't do jack-shit in terms of obligating your neighbor to pay for it.
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:59 PM
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A more accurate analogy would be if you decide to put up a fence between your property and your neighbor's and declare "He will pay for that fence!", although he's stated repeatedly that he has no intention of paying for it and isn't in any way responsible for it.

Yes, in that situation if your wife finds you at Home Depot buying fencing materials, it makes a lot of sense for her to ask you why the hell you're buying the fence if you expect the neighbor to pay for it.

Because unlike the other hypothetical situation where a criminal is held legally and financially responsible for shooting out your window, your unilateral decision to build a fence around your property doesn't do jack-shit in terms of obligating your neighbor to pay for it.
I disagree. We all know that there is no obligation for Mexico to pay, just like my neighbor has no obligation to pay for the property line fence.

But maybe in past years I have given the neighbor tomatoes and peppers out of my garden or venison steak after hunting. Maybe I helped him change a flat tire last year or I represented his son free of charge after a DUI charge last year.

We need a fence because his dogs keep coming over and shitting on my back porch, but he doesn't want to pay? I'm not bothering him. I would rather not have a fence, but his dogs keep coming over (and please understand this is an analogy and I am not saying that Mexicans are dogs). Then he will pay in an indirect way.

And I think my wife would know that despite anything I said taken absolutely literally, that she really did not reasonably think that I was going to steal his checkbook or march him at gunpoint down to Home Depot.
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Old 12-21-2018, 05:22 PM
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Lol
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Old 12-21-2018, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I think you all are being just a bit literal here. If a guy shoots out my window and I declare that "He will pay for that window!" and the next day I am at Home Depot buying a new window to replace it, should my wife ask why I am buying the window when I promised that the criminal would pay?

The OP admits that we have no power, short of invasion, sacking, and pillaging to make Mexico directly pay up front for the wall. So the idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road doesn't seem like an excuse, but something implicit in the statement.

Now, if we will or ever do that, who knows? But it is not like we should have taken that statement literally as everyone knows that it could not happen.
I know we’re supposed to take Trump seriously but not literally. On this issue, however, he asked us (repeatedly) to take him literally. Watch any Trump campaign rally for confirmation of this.

ETA. If the promise to get Mexico the pay for the wall was not literally true, why should the promise to build any wall at all be taken more seriously? Let’s forget the whole thing

Last edited by Procrustus; 12-21-2018 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 12-21-2018, 05:34 PM
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This is kind of an unrelated question, but maybe an interesting one. Don't the Feds have to put the project out to bid, i.e., conduct a procurement? (I used to work in procurement for the Commonwealth of Mass. so have a bit of related knowledge). It's not just like they decide one day to have XYZ Construction put up a wall. Various bidders have to submit their proposals, which would be judged not just on cheapest cost, but best overall. Then follow negotiations, scheduling, etc. etc.

I haven't seen any talk about this kind of a process being initiated, so it got me to wondering. Conducting a complicated procurement can take the better part of a year.
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Old 12-21-2018, 05:59 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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So the idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road doesn't seem like an excuse, but something implicit in the statement.
No, it is a flat-out lie.

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Now, if we will or ever do that, who knows? But it is not like we should have taken that statement literally as everyone knows that it could not happen.
And yet the history of the last two years is meaningless unless you postulate that Trump voters and supporters were taking Trump at his word. My cite is the dozens of pre- and post-election campaign rallies in which thousands of people screamed "Mexico" whenever Trump asked "who's going to pay for the wall?"
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Old 12-21-2018, 06:32 PM
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But maybe in past years I have given the neighbor tomatoes and peppers out of my garden or venison steak after hunting. Maybe I helped him change a flat tire last year or I represented his son free of charge after a DUI charge last year.

We need a fence because his dogs keep coming over and shitting on my back porch, but he doesn't want to pay? I'm not bothering him. I would rather not have a fence, but his dogs keep coming over (and please understand this is an analogy and I am not saying that Mexicans are dogs). Then he will pay in an indirect way.

And I think my wife would know that despite anything I said taken absolutely literally, that she really did not reasonably think that I was going to steal his checkbook or march him at gunpoint down to Home Depot.
The analogy game can go on endlessly. How about:

A mentally deficit woman has a house, and believes that the ladybugs and earthworms which come to her garden from her neighbor’s yard are one day going to sneak into the house and strangle her (and please, understand, I'm not saying that immigrants are ladybugs and earthworms). You’re a drifter two-bit street hustler who sees an opportunity to exploit, so you tell her you’re going to build a wall which will keep all the ladybugs and earthworms out, and you’ll also make her neighbor pay for it (an obvious fantasy). On those grounds you convince her to take you in and you start to mooch off of her. You know the wall is a stupid idea, but you also know you need to keep talking about it, or she’ll throw you out, so you start insisting that her relatives shell out $1 million dollars to pay for it (which they won’t). As long as you keep talking about it, the mentally deficit woman will continue to put you up, and you continue to mooch.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:04 PM
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Lol
Well said.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:08 PM
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I disagree. We all know that there is no obligation for Mexico to pay, just like my neighbor has no obligation to pay for the property line fence.

But maybe in past years I have given the neighbor tomatoes and peppers out of my garden or venison steak after hunting. Maybe I helped him change a flat tire last year or I represented his son free of charge after a DUI charge last year.

We need a fence because his dogs keep coming over and shitting on my back porch, but he doesn't want to pay? I'm not bothering him. I would rather not have a fence, but his dogs keep coming over (and please understand this is an analogy and I am not saying that Mexicans are dogs). Then he will pay in an indirect way.

And I think my wife would know that despite anything I said taken absolutely literally, that she really did not reasonably think that I was going to steal his checkbook or march him at gunpoint down to Home Depot.
What would really happen is that the dogs will dig under the fence and shit on your porch anyway.

Look, Trump was either lying through his teeth or so deluded that he thought that yelling at Mexico would result in their caving in and paying.
If he didn't mean it, he wouldn't have begged the president of Mexico to pretend that he was paying for it.
And I doubt that more than a few of his supporters didn't believe it literally. They are that stupid.

Last edited by Voyager; 12-21-2018 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:09 PM
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It seems so simple, I must be missing something obvious.
U.S. provides aid worth $320 million a year to Mexico; experts say yanking it could hurt

So one point is it takes a lot of years to add up to $5 bllion.

The other is how much it would hurt the US. That funding is to help them with a little issue that affects us. Drug cartels already effectively control big chunks of the Mexican border region. They assassinate politicians and judges that they can't bribe or coerce. Mexico committed their military over a decade ago to try and wrest back control. The security situation is still very bad. Cutting aid that mostly is directed to helping them with that issue likely makes the security situation much worse. There's some negative side effects of a major trading partner on our border potentially descending into chaos. Think of Colombia under the Medellin cartel but on our border.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:27 PM
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Come on guys. Trump was talking about building the big ol' wall cause his supporters screamed and hollered and he felt like the king of the world at those rallys. He had no idea how to go about getting funding. Or if it was even possible. He's a liar and a braggert and he thinks if he rattles the noisey wall business loud and long enough , he'll win. He's taking USA for a ride. He thinks he can bluff is way into it. Changing the name of the actual wall to the words 'border security' ain't gonna cut it. Because that is not what he said while running. He said 'an Actual wall' would be built. What a joke!
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:31 PM
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I think you all are being just a bit literal here. If a guy shoots out my window and I declare that "He will pay for that window!" and the next day I am at Home Depot buying a new window to replace it, should my wife ask why I am buying the window when I promised that the criminal would pay?
That's a different meaning of the phrase "pay for." You're using it in the sense of "face the consequences." That's obviously not what Trump meant when he said Mexico will "pay for" the wall.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:41 PM
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He further said when Mexico said they WOULD NOT pay, that the "Wall just got higher" What a dumb-ass.
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Old 12-21-2018, 09:27 PM
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Quoth UltraVires:

But maybe in past years I have given the neighbor tomatoes and peppers out of my garden or venison steak after hunting.
You seem to be confused about which neighbor depends on which for tomatoes and peppers. Literally.
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Old 12-21-2018, 09:50 PM
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I disagree. We all know that there is no obligation for Mexico to pay, just like my neighbor has no obligation to pay for the property line fence.

But maybe in past years I have given the neighbor tomatoes and peppers out of my garden or venison steak after hunting. Maybe I helped him change a flat tire last year or I represented his son free of charge after a DUI charge last year.

We need a fence because his dogs keep coming over and shitting on my back porch, but he doesn't want to pay? I'm not bothering him. I would rather not have a fence, but his dogs keep coming over (and please understand this is an analogy and I am not saying that Mexicans are dogs). Then he will pay in an indirect way.

And I think my wife would know that despite anything I said taken absolutely literally, that she really did not reasonably think that I was going to steal his checkbook or march him at gunpoint down to Home Depot.
Is this satire? What a bunch of gaslighting nonsense. He wrote a frickin 2 page memo outlining how how he would compel Mexico to make a cash payment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/...?noredirect=on

How can you possibly spin that?
  #37  
Old 12-21-2018, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
A more accurate analogy would be if you decide to put up a fence between your property and your neighbor's and declare "He will pay for that fence!", although he's stated repeatedly that he has no intention of paying for it and isn't in any way responsible for it.

Yes, in that situation if your wife finds you at Home Depot buying fencing materials, it makes a lot of sense for her to ask you why the hell you're buying the fence if you expect the neighbor to pay for it.
Especially because during your entire courtship you kept repeating that he was gonna pay for the fence when you finally built it, and this promise was a big part of the reason your wife married you in the first place.

Well, that and the electoral college.

And Russian interference in your engagement.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 12-21-2018 at 09:59 PM.
  #38  
Old 12-22-2018, 12:00 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I think you all are being just a bit literal here. If a guy shoots out my window and I declare that "He will pay for that window!" and the next day I am at Home Depot buying a new window to replace it, should my wife ask why I am buying the window when I promised that the criminal would pay?

The OP admits that we have no power, short of invasion, sacking, and pillaging to make Mexico directly pay up front for the wall. So the idea that there will be a payment or an offset down the road doesn't seem like an excuse, but something implicit in the statement.

Now, if we will or ever do that, who knows? But it is not like we should have taken that statement literally as everyone knows that it could not happen.
You’re glossing over the phone call between Trump and Pena Neto where Trump basically begged Mexico to pay for the wall, because otherwise “it would make me [Trump] look so bad and I [the lying dotard] have only been here a week.”

You can’t say that Trump didn’t think he could make Mexico pay for the wall. He literally was groveling and pleading for them to do so, because Trump’s reputation was at stake.

We all know how that’s turned out.
  #39  
Old 12-22-2018, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
But maybe in past years I have given the neighbor tomatoes and peppers out of my garden or venison steak after hunting. Maybe I helped him change a flat tire last year or I represented his son free of charge after a DUI charge last year.
Or maybe you invaded your neighbor's land after some of your bratty kids built a treehouse in his back yard, and then annexed the land yourself. And after that maybe you invaded him again, and took all the best land and named it California.
  #40  
Old 12-22-2018, 03:35 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
$5 billion sounds like a drastically low estimate. That's around two thousand miles of border, a project that will take well over a decade, thousands of workers who must be housed, fed, protected, paid, etc., private property along the wall that must be acquired, and so forth. I'd be surprised if it were finished for anything less than $30 billion.
The Pakistan-Afghanistan border wall currently under construction, has a cost estimate under a Billion USD. In much worse terrain.
Admittedly costs of work are lower,but not by that much.
  #41  
Old 12-22-2018, 04:29 AM
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You can’t say that Trump didn’t think he could make Mexico pay for the wall. He literally was groveling and pleading for them to do so, because Trump’s reputation was at stake.

Trump
1) Has a reputation...
2) That he cares about
3) Which normal people can relate to?
  #42  
Old 12-22-2018, 05:23 AM
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First of all, the $5 billion is just a down payment to begin work on a wall whose total construction cost is estimated at $70 billlion. More, actually, for the "steel slats" since the $70 billion estimate didn't include the 25% Trump tariffs on steel.

As pointed out upthread treating NAFTA as a cooperative "everybody wins" deal, and thereby reducing Mexicans' incentive to leave Mexico since they could work for the U.S. from Mexico, would reduce illegal immigration far more than a wall ever would. Instead, Thrumpo can think of trade agreements only from a selfish "America First" perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
Is such sarcasm really necessary? A simple audio rendition should suffice for the reading-impaired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by divemaster View Post
Serious question...do we provide foreign aid to Mexico? (I assume we do). If we were supposed to give them, say $5b over the next 15 years, why can't the U.S. just say "Nah, we need that money to build a wall."
Please don't buy into right-wing confusion about foreign aid. The biggest recipients in 2013 were countries the U.S. broke, Israel, and Israel's enemies — Afghanistan $4.5 B, Israel $3.0 B, Egypt $1.6 B, Jordan $1.2, Palestine $1.0 B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I think you all are being just a bit literal here.
...But it is not like we should have taken that statement literally as everyone knows that it could not happen.
Trump supporters are so cute! They simultaneously hold
* "Trump is refreshing because he is so truthful. So very different from the Lie Machines that are CNN, NBC and Hillary Clinton."
* "Why do you expect Trump's statements to make sense or be truthful? That just shows you don't understand the man's greatness."
  #43  
Old 12-22-2018, 07:50 AM
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running coach running coach is offline
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
The Pakistan-Afghanistan border wall currently under construction, has a cost estimate under a Billion USD. In much worse terrain.
Admittedly costs of work are lower,but not by that much.
From your inaccurately worded link. (fence, not a wall)
Quote:
Pakistan-Afghanistan border fencing will be completed by December 2019

The pair of nine-foot wire fences, with a six-foot gap and topped with barbed wire runs along rugged terrain and snow-capped mountains as high as 12,000 feet.
That is a long way from being a 30 foot concrete wall.

Last edited by running coach; 12-22-2018 at 07:50 AM.
  #44  
Old 12-22-2018, 11:19 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
From your inaccurately worded link. (fence, not a wall)

That is a long way from being a 30 foot concrete wall.
In another thread I commented that absolutely nothing that happens in the real world can be a lesson about why libertarianism wouldn't work in libertopia.

In the same way, no real world border barrier can cast doubt on the beautiful, perfect, imaginary wall in the minds of Trump and his supporters.
  #45  
Old 12-22-2018, 02:28 PM
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A lot of people are asking him that. The problem is, his base isn’t asking him that, and he only listens to his base.
All his base are belong to him?
  #46  
Old 12-22-2018, 08:12 PM
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Snopes.com has an article about someone creating a GoFundMe account to raised the $5B, that has already received several million in pledges.https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gofundme-border-wall/

The article goes on to explain the $5B is just the tip of the iceberg with estimated completion costs ranging for $21.6B to $70B.

This reminds me of the Honolulu Rail project which was estimated to cost $5.2B in 2011 and is now at $8.3B with estimates of a final cost as much as $13B. With completion dates being pushed further and further into the future and ridership estimates going down.

I've always joked that I'll be dead before the rail ever transports it's first passenger and the way things are going, that may be true!

Note: This monorail project isn't going from island to island, it's 20 miles from one side of the island of Oahu to the main business districts. A rush hour commute that can take 2+ hours via car or bus.

Last edited by lingyi; 12-22-2018 at 08:16 PM.
  #47  
Old 12-22-2018, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
From your inaccurately worded link. (fence, not a wall)
Quote:
Pakistan-Afghanistan border fencing will be completed by December 2019

The pair of nine-foot wire fences, with a six-foot gap and topped with barbed wire runs along rugged terrain and snow-capped mountains as high as 12,000 feet.
That is a long way from being a 30 foot concrete wall.
And you can jump over it with a motorcycle.
  #48  
Old 12-22-2018, 08:33 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is online now
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Originally Posted by divemaster View Post
Serious question...do we provide foreign aid to Mexico? (I assume we do). If we were supposed to give them, say $5b over the next 15 years, why can't the U.S. just say "Nah, we need that money to build a wall."

I'm not saying I agree to such an approach (I don't), but it would seem to solve a number of problems. It "finds" $5b without raising taxes or shifting money from U.S. funding recipients. Plus Trump could point to how Mexico was indeed paying for the wall.

It seems so simple, I must be missing something obvious.
Mexico received US$88M of US foreign aid funds in FY2018.

The only thing obvious about this wall is that it is conceived to prop up Donald Trump’s fragile ego. It serves no other purpose and even if erected, would fail to stem the tide of immigrants who are escaping from situations so desperate and hopeless they are leaving behind everything they know and facing imprisonment and separation from their children just for some feeble hope of a better life.

“Wall” (without article, as described by Kristjen Nielson in full-on She-Hulk mode) is an exemplar for the Trump Administration policy in a nutshell; poorly conceived, wholly unworkable, with no thought toward either the practical details of implementation or long term impact, and existing purely as a salve that Trump can apply when he rambles so completely off topic that even Kellyanne Conway can’t pivot him back to reality.

“Wall” is the Maginot Line of American public policy toward immigration. Although in utility, it is more like those stupid bunkers that pimple the streets and hills of Albania. And if Enver Hoxha were still alive, I’m sure Trump would be venerating him as a great leader, because Trump is nothing if not a dedicated toady for tinpot dictators.

Stranger
  #49  
Old 12-23-2018, 03:40 AM
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And you can jump over it with a motorcycle.
If by "you" you mean Steve McQueen.
  #50  
Old 12-23-2018, 08:56 AM
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GreenWyvern GreenWyvern is offline
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“I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me.” – Trump, Nov. 27 interview with The Washington Post

Now you know!
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