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  #101  
Old 01-02-2019, 02:56 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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Originally Posted by BeenJammin View Post
Why isn't anyone around here smart enough to realize "the Wall" is just a euphemism for immigration and border security policy?
Because it isn't. Every time some Republican tries to make this claim, Trump flies into a snit and twits that the wall is an actual concrete wall.

You can try to make the clam that Trump is so much of an idiot that we shouldn't pay any attention to his written and spoken words, no matter how forcefully expressed. We will buy that. But then it's hard to make any arguments on any side if there is no agreement about what we're talking about and Trump himself is not providing any guidance.

Let Trump provide his complete plan for combating illegal immigration, including a final price tag, and we can start examining it. Until then, all he gets is mockery for his idiocy, hypocrisy, and bluster.
  #102  
Old 01-02-2019, 03:02 PM
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I suggest a better question might be: Does anyone actually understand the real cost of maintaining effective border security? On ANY border?
Oh, people can estimate the costs of putting more walls or people on the border. That's totally easy to do.

The real question is, is spending more money on walls and whatnot just a waste of money? Considering how illegal immigration has declined over the last two decades (cite) the answer would seem to be, yep.
  #103  
Old 01-02-2019, 03:06 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is online now
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Originally Posted by BeenJammin View Post
Why isn't anyone around here smart enough to realize "the Wall" is just a euphemism for immigration and border security policy? Trump's base surely isn't. But it is a simple concept easily understood by people who otherwise get easily confused by complicated issues.

Dems should take a lesson.
If it's a euphemism (I'd probably call it more of a metonym), then great! Let Congress appropriate funds for immigration and border security measures that might actually do some good, call it the TRUMP-WALL Act (someone else can reverse-engineer the acronym), Donnie can scribble his squiggle on it while making his "Presidential tough guy" face, and everybody goes home happy.

(Well... except maybe for a lot of red-hatted Trumpeteers who are going to show up at his next Hurrendurrh Rally so angry they're grinding their tooth.)

Last edited by Vinyl Turnip; 01-02-2019 at 03:08 PM.
  #104  
Old 01-02-2019, 03:06 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Oh, people can estimate the costs of putting more walls or people on the border. That's totally easy to do.

The real question is, is spending more money on walls and whatnot just a waste of money? Considering how illegal immigration has declined over the last two decades (cite) the answer would seem to be, yep.

Well, we need enuf border control to make smuggling harder.

But there's little reason to waste it on keeping people who want to work out of the country.

Last edited by DrDeth; 01-02-2019 at 03:09 PM.
  #105  
Old 01-02-2019, 03:11 PM
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If it's a euphemism (I'd probably call it more of a metonym), then great! Let Congress appropriate funds for immigration and border security measures that might actually do some good, call it the TRUMP-WALL Act (someone else can reverse-engineer the acronym), Donnie can scribble his squiggle on it while making his "Presidential tough guy" face, and everybody goes home happy.

(Well... except maybe for a lot of red-hatted Trumpeteers who are going to show up at his next Hurrendurrh Rally so angry they're grinding their tooth.)
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  #106  
Old 01-02-2019, 05:11 PM
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You liberals are so cute, with your antiquated notions like "Facts Matter."
That's the heart of the problem: facts. Facts have a well-known liberal bias.
  #107  
Old 01-02-2019, 06:34 PM
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Different issue. Obama and Clinton voted for "wall" funding before Trump was in office. Ergo, the first wall was already funded.
They torpedoed immigration reform well before Trump. Still, it is true that Dems vote for reasonable fences.
  #108  
Old 01-02-2019, 06:46 PM
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I saw a cartoon recently captioned “Trump's Actual Wall”, in which a mason was laying bricks on the Wall, as its end was drawing closer to the US-Mexico border.
  #109  
Old 01-02-2019, 07:14 PM
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Here's an exchange that appeared on Fox News between host Leland Vittert and conservative journalist David Mark:

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“This brings up an important point though of what does this wall look like?” the Fox News host continued. “We haven’t heard that from the administration. We’ve seen some tweets from the president that have steel slats with spikes on top, he’s talked about how it’s going to be. It will be big, it’s going to be beautiful, it’s going to do all these things.”

“But even Republicans in Congress have told me, ‘Look, it would be a lot easier to fight Democrats on this if we actually had a plan — and that we’re going to have a concrete wall from here to here, we’re going to have a wall with slats so Border Patrol can see through it from there to there, etc.,'” the Fox News host noted.

“The problem for the administration is there are so many variables,” Mark agreed. “It’s not just a matter of construction, it’s environmental rules, it’s eminent domain, actually the government taking properties from private land owners.”

“This is the president of the United States’ signature domestic policy,” Vittert interrupted. “That and probably repeal and replace of Obamacare that he campaigned on. It’s been two years, are you telling me in two years, DHS and the White House couldn’t come up with this plan and say, ‘Here’s the plan for the wall. Now go enact it, Congress.'”

“I don’t think for the Trump administration it’s really about those kinds of specifics,” Mark conceded. “It’s about telling his political base they are working on a wall, whether it’s metaphorical — parts of the U.S.-Mexico border literally could not have a wall because it’s along the Rio Grande.”
I'm still waiting for Magiver to come back and give us the plan.
  #110  
Old 01-02-2019, 08:54 PM
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Seems like it would be more cost effective to just buy the drugs outright and then destroy them before they get to the US. Fights the war on drugs and no need for the wall.
Not sure if you heard that the war is over: Drugs won.
  #111  
Old 01-04-2019, 09:27 PM
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Trump now says he might declare a national emergency and use military funds to build the wall. The Pentagon says there's $1-2 billion. The rest would come out of military construction projects the Pentagon deems critical for preparedness.

Trump's remark, "I can do it if I want" may best summarize his approach to the presidency.
  #112  
Old 01-04-2019, 09:28 PM
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Out of this 5 billion, how much of it is labor cost?

It would be ironic is Trump hired Mexicans, or brought in people from over seas from India to work for cheap to build his wall.
  #113  
Old 01-04-2019, 09:41 PM
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Not sure if you heard that the war is over: Drugs won.
They had one hell of a victory party, too.
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  #114  
Old 01-04-2019, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Trump's remark, "I can do it if I want" may best summarize his approach to the presidency.
It's the attitude of a petulant three year old.

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  #115  
Old 01-05-2019, 02:09 AM
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Out of this 5 billion, how much of it is labor cost?

It would be ironic is Trump hired Mexicans, or brought in people from over seas from India to work for cheap to build his wall.
Since that seems to be how he staffs his resorts, no doubt.
  #116  
Old 01-05-2019, 02:33 PM
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I bet he could get Roger Waters to build the Wall for a lot less.
  #117  
Old 01-05-2019, 02:37 PM
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Can they instead build a small symbolic wall in Washington with TRUMP written on it to the benefit of homeless people and dogs needing a place to urinate?
  #118  
Old 01-05-2019, 04:32 PM
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Well, we need enuf border control to make smuggling harder.
I wonder how much smuggling there is through controlled checkpoints vs elsewhere. Plenty of desperate people willing to hide contraband on their person or in their vehicle. In all the time I crossed between Cd. Juárez and El Paso, I got dog-sniffed on foot once and never in a car. But that's hardly a good sample size. And I haven't done it in a while.
  #119  
Old 01-05-2019, 07:23 PM
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I wonder how much smuggling there is through controlled checkpoints vs elsewhere. Plenty of desperate people willing to hide contraband on their person or in their vehicle. In all the time I crossed between Cd. Juárez and El Paso, I got dog-sniffed on foot once and never in a car. But that's hardly a good sample size. And I haven't done it in a while.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ion/index.html

This says that marijuana is typically smuggled in between ports of entry, and hard drugs are smuggled in through ports of entry.
  #120  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:16 PM
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Can they instead build a small symbolic wall in Washington with TRUMP written on it to the benefit of homeless people and dogs needing a place to urinate?
He might go for that, as long as there were cameras, so he could watch.
  #121  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:35 AM
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:sigh:

Trump hires illegal immigrants to save money.

The one and only reason trump wants a wall is to hang his name and presidency on it. He doesn't give one shit about anything but to be admired by someone. Anyone. The only good thing about Trumps election is that we have discovered just how many racist morons exist in the USA.

This will get obfuscated by his handlers into muddy swamp water. Some crony will tell trump the wall is done, he will look at some pictures declare 'victory' and move on.

Toddlers need to be told NO! If the toddler has a gun (or Presidential pen), you need to take a different approach.
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  #122  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:38 AM
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ion/index.html

This says that marijuana is typically smuggled in between ports of entry, and hard drugs are smuggled in through ports of entry.
I'd be rather surprise if MJ is still smuggled in in any large amount. No real point if you can get the good stuff from a friend in another state.
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  #123  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:00 PM
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I'd be rather surprise if MJ is still smuggled in in any large amount. No real point if you can get the good stuff from a friend in another state.
You might want a NORTHERN wall for that.
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  #124  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:07 PM
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The one and only reason trump wants a wall is to hang his name and presidency on it.
To be fair, he does have one other reason -- it's a golden opportunity for graft for himself and for his Russian masters.
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  #125  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:14 PM
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You might want a NORTHERN wall for that.
Belgium will pay for it.
  #126  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:45 PM
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Belgium will pay for it.
In chocolate?

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  #127  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:15 PM
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Would the wall be addressing an actual problem?
  #128  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:23 PM
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Would the wall be addressing an actual problem?
I suppose that depends on how you define "actual". Lots of people seem to think "Immigration/Illegal aliens" is a problem: Gallup - Immigration Up Sharply as Most Important U.S. Problem.

As to whether the wall would address it, at least partially, would you believe the former Border Patrol Chief under Obama?
  #129  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:33 PM
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As to whether the wall would address it, at least partially, would you believe the former Border Patrol Chief under Obama?
Why should you believe someone that Trump fired?

Also, he was the first commissioner who was never a Border Patrol agent. Not exactly a font of experience, he.

Last edited by Ravenman; 01-08-2019 at 03:35 PM.
  #130  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:38 PM
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I suppose that depends on how you define "actual". Lots of people seem to think "Immigration/Illegal aliens" is a problem: Gallup - Immigration Up Sharply as Most Important U.S. Problem.

As to whether the wall would address it, at least partially, would you believe the former Border Patrol Chief under Obama?
<grumble> you for making me watch Tucker Carlson. There was absolutely no substance to that interview, Mark Morgan says the data shows that walls work but then doesn't actually tell us what that data is. There is no substance in this clip, just an appeal to... I guess I wouldn't call it authority, but certainly a lot of "I can't possibly be politically biased, I worked for Obama! And was fired by Trump!" And yet....

Quote:
Mr. Morgan had sent an internal email to Border Patrol staff members after the election criticizing the immigration enforcement policies of President Barack Obama and his Homeland Security secretary, Jeh C. Johnson.

The official said it appeared to be an attempt by Mr. Morgan to please the incoming administration, which had made border security a key campaign platform.

Mr. Morgan, a former F.B.I. agent, was appointed chief in June and took over in October. He was the first chief in the agency’s 93-year history who had never worked as a border patrol agent. He had led the internal affairs office at Customs and Border Protection before taking over the Border Patrol.
He doesn't actually have much experience in, you know, border security.

Last edited by steronz; 01-08-2019 at 03:39 PM.
  #131  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I suppose that depends on how you define "actual". Lots of people seem to think "Immigration/Illegal aliens" is a problem: Gallup - Immigration Up Sharply as Most Important U.S. Problem.

As to whether the wall would address it, at least partially, would you believe the former Border Patrol Chief under Obama?
That's what happens when stupid people listen to a compulsive liar.
Doesn't prove it's a problem.
  #132  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:41 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Why should you believe someone that Trump fired?

Also, he was the first commissioner who was never a Border Patrol agent. Not exactly a font of experience, he.
If we were to poll Border Patrol agents about their thoughts on physical barriers along the southern border, what do you imagine we'd find?
  #133  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:43 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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That's what happens when stupid people listen to a compulsive liar.
Doesn't prove it's a problem.
I started with the line "I suppose that depends on how you define "actual"." If you're defining it as "only things I agree are problems are actual problems", well, that's a bit circular, but ok then.
  #134  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
If we were to poll Border Patrol agents about their thoughts on physical barriers along the southern border, what do you imagine we'd find?
Barriers?! BARRIERS! Why would you refer to a 2000 mile wall in the plural?!?

Don't move the goal posts by pretending like Democrats are opposed to fences in targeted areas. If a fence can be built, maintained, and monitored in the right place(s), that could certainly work for certain purposes. The wall is a different boondoggle entirely.

Last edited by steronz; 01-08-2019 at 03:45 PM.
  #135  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:55 PM
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If we were to poll Border Patrol agents about their thoughts on physical barriers along the southern border, what do you imagine we'd find?
So your two cites are an opinion poll and an imaginary opinion poll.
Got any actual facts that show we need Trump's wall?
  #136  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:56 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... pretending like Democrats are opposed to fences in targeted areas. ...
I got that impression from Pelosi saying "A wall is an immorality". I didn't realize that we were now parsing the moral differences between walls and fences. If "fence" is the word you prefer, let's put up $5B worth of Israeli-style security fences and call it a day.

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... If a fence can be built, maintained, and monitored in the right place(s), that could certainly work for certain purposes. ...
Excellent, I'm glad we agree. Go tell Nancy.
  #137  
Old 01-08-2019, 03:59 PM
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... Got any actual facts that show we need Trump's wall?
I've already provided the former Border Patrol chief's interview in which he supported the idea. I got the complaint that "He doesn't actually have much experience in, you know, border security" (which makes all the uninformed opinions on the subject by non-BP-agent Dopers rather rich, don't you think?), but lucky for us, the Border Patrol agents have chimed in on the matter: Border Patrol agents overwhelmingly support Trump's wall in new survey. Shall we leave it up to the experts then?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 01-08-2019 at 04:00 PM.
  #138  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:00 PM
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I got that impression from Pelosi saying "A wall is an immorality". I didn't realize that we were now parsing the moral differences between walls and fences. If "fence" is the word you prefer, let's put up $5B worth of Israeli-style security fences and call it a day.
Where do you want these fences? What's wrong with the fences we have already? What will get us the most bang for our buck? What is the targeted purpose of each proposed stretch of new fence? Present a plan and we'll discuss the merits. So far all we have is 2000 miles of "steel slats".
  #139  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:03 PM
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I've already provided the former Border Patrol chief's interview in which he supported the idea. I got the complaint that "He doesn't actually have much experience in, you know, border security" (which makes all the uninformed opinions on the subject by non-BP-agent Dopers rather rich, don't you think?), but lucky for us, the Border Patrol agents have chimed in on the matter: Border Patrol agents overwhelmingly support Trump's wall in new survey. Shall we leave it up to the experts then?
"A wall system in strategic locations." What's a "wall system?" Monitored fencing? So they think monitored fences in strategic locations, like we currently have, is a necessary component of border security!? What an amazing poll!

So we already have exactly what they're asking for, why do we need $5B?
  #140  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:05 PM
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Where do you want these fences? What's wrong with the fences we have already? What will get us the most bang for our buck? What is the targeted purpose of each proposed stretch of new fence? Present a plan and we'll discuss the merits. So far all we have is 2000 miles of "steel slats".
Based on this post, is it a safe guess that you disagree with Pelosi's "a wall is an immorality" statement?
  #141  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:08 PM
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Excellent, I'm glad we agree. Go tell Nancy.

Does Trump have any kind of plan for the construction, maintenance and monitoring? So far it's just "wall!" from him, as best I can tell.

Could you please ask him about it, next you meet?
  #142  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:08 PM
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Based on this post, is it a safe guess that you disagree with Pelosi's "a wall is an immorality" statement?
Based on this post, is it a safe guess that you don't know the difference between a 2000 mile wall and a few hundred miles of fence?

Last edited by steronz; 01-08-2019 at 04:08 PM.
  #143  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I've already provided the former Border Patrol chief's interview in which he supported the idea. I got the complaint that "He doesn't actually have much experience in, you know, border security" (which makes all the uninformed opinions on the subject by non-BP-agent Dopers rather rich, don't you think?), but lucky for us, the Border Patrol agents have chimed in on the matter: Border Patrol agents overwhelmingly support Trump's wall in new survey. Shall we leave it up to the experts then?
Did you read your link?
Quote:
In a survey conducted by the National Border Patrol Council, the agents’ union, they overwhelmingly supported adding a “wall system” in strategic locations, embracing President Trump’s argument that it will boost their ability to nab or deter would-be illegal immigrants.
That's way different than 2,000 miles of wall.
  #144  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:11 PM
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Where are you guys getting "2000 miles" from? President Trump is asking for $5B. I think we'd all agree that's not going to build "2000 miles" of wall, right?
  #145  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:14 PM
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Where are you guys getting "2000 miles" from? President Trump is asking for $5B. I think we'd all agree that's not going to build "2000 miles" of wall, right?
From the Howling Yam himself.
  #146  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:20 PM
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Where are you guys getting "2000 miles" from? President Trump is asking for $5B. I think we'd all agree that's not going to build "2000 miles" of wall, right?
Where is he going to build $5B of wall? What's the plan? Can you link to it?
  #147  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:21 PM
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Where are you guys getting "2000 miles" from? President Trump is asking for $5B. I think we'd all agree that's not going to build "2000 miles" of wall, right?
We all agree?
Until Trump tells us exactly what he plans on doing with the $5B, we have no fucking idea what he thinks...and "...a wall or a fence, whatever you want to call it" just isn't going to fly, because if we think that a wall and a fence are synonymous and that the money will be spent on fixing the fencing that is there, they we deserve to be played for the suckers y'all think you are dealing with.
No blank check.
  #148  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:21 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by running coach View Post
From the Howling Yam himself.
Cite?
  #149  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:28 PM
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running coach running coach is offline
Arms of Steel, Leg of Jello
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Cite?
GOP platform. (PDF)
pg 33
Quote:
That is why we support building a wall along
our southern border and protecting all ports of
entry. The border wall must cover the entirety
of the southern border and must be sufficient to
stop both vehicular and pedestrian traffic.
Along with numerous rantings at rallies.
  #150  
Old 01-08-2019, 04:56 PM
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Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by running coach View Post
GOP platform. (PDF)
pg 33
Huh, I didn't think they were dumb enough to actually put it in writing.
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