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Old 12-30-2018, 03:51 PM
MortSahlFan MortSahlFan is offline
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What Divides Us the Most?

I'll first say I'm in the US...

Generational? Is it culture (music, movies, literature, etc)? Skin color? I think many would say politics, but 99% of the people you'll pass by or encounter won't give that away very soon. Heck, some close people want to leave politics out, but I think that's diminishing... I also think many are not political, and might be skewed by the noise from TV, etc... I'm not sure, though, and the larger the sample size, the better.
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Old 12-30-2018, 04:10 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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At the risk of being ultra-vague: "What we want."


It's a huge tug of war between red and blue. Red cheers everything that represents tugging the rope further red. Blue cheers everything that represents tugging the rope further blue.

Ditto for feminism, LGBT, guns, religion, urban vs. rural. Everybody cheers for what pulls the rope more in their own direction.
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Old 12-30-2018, 04:26 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Red vs Blue

Conservative red state people do NOT regard the government as "us, writ large". So it is not that they don't believe we should come together and combine our efforts and do good on a collective scale; they just don't think our government qualifies as "us".

Liberal blue state people are quite often people who have either escaped small-town America or else immigrated and landed in our major cities. They have reason to doubt that any form of spontaneous charity or informal consideration of people, such as it might exist in small-town America, is going to be there for them. They know that if you are significantly different, if you don't fit in, the informal flavors of collective caring are likely to ignore you, and they've had better luck trying to formally negotiate some fairness and some considerations from the formal structure called government, even though it is flawed in many ways.

Conservative red state people tend to embrace the notion that "what is right" is transparent, self-evident and obvious, and that people will do what is right. Liberal blue state people are more likely to want a formal process where one is guaranteed a chance to speak one's piece. ETA: or where there is at least a formal process that leads to being able to speak

Government is very often a self-interested endeavor and seldom a true voice for fairness and justice and equality and even more seldom interested in investigating ways of making the process more democratic. The conservatives are not misplaced in their suspicion of government.

But it's what we've got. It contains at least a modicum of mechanisms for self-improvement.

Informal versions of "the collective us" whether they be augumented and/or represented as the church or the local civic club or whatever, are less likely to contain avenues via which for people to complain and be heard. There are reasons that misfits and variant and minority and marginalized etc etc people run away from small towns and head for the cities. It isn't because we hate squirrels and trees and lakes and stuff.

Last edited by AHunter3; 12-30-2018 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 04:27 PM
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I think it's actually very simple:

One side wants to be left alone to do what they want.

The other side agrees, so long as 'doing what you want' doesn't offend their sensibilities.
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Old 12-30-2018, 07:25 PM
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Bandsaws.
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Old 12-30-2018, 07:40 PM
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nc

Last edited by andros; 12-30-2018 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 08:03 PM
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People who form their beliefs based on evidence vs people who form their beliefs based on faith.
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Old 12-30-2018, 08:10 PM
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Genders.
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Old 12-30-2018, 08:29 PM
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Bandsaws.
Guillotines. I was gonna say guillotines.

ETA: Also, possibly, really powerful lasers.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-30-2018 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:14 AM
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Guillotines. I was gonna say guillotines.

ETA: Also, possibly, really powerful lasers.
"Don't tase me, bro!"
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:30 AM
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Religion. Particularly the really religious "rah-rahs" who think their religion has all the answers, is the only right one, and should be followed by everyone."
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:05 AM
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I think it's actually very simple:

One side wants to be left alone to do what they want.

The other side agrees, so long as 'doing what you want' doesn't offend their sensibilities.
Well, the subtlety of this really sums it up. Both sides can see themselves in this statement as the good guys. But both really aren't. Both inhabit some sort of quantum plain where they can be both.
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:09 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Probably race. On one hand you have whites who feel threatened by non whites, either afraid of them being criminals, taking their jobs, bringing bad habits and diseases, or supplanting their culture.

On the other side you have a coalition of non whites as well as whites who believe in multiculturalism.

I think that's the biggest division we have that causes our other divisions (political divisions come from racial divisions imo).

Race also causes the Civil War, the political realignment of the 60s, and arguably is part of why the south and plains states are at odds with the northeast and west coast.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:46 AM
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I think skin color is it.. If you're walking down a street, you can't hide it..
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MortSahlFan View Post
I'll first say I'm in the US...

Generational? Is it culture (music, movies, literature, etc)? Skin color? I think many would say politics, but 99% of the people you'll pass by or encounter won't give that away very soon. Heck, some close people want to leave politics out, but I think that's diminishing... I also think many are not political, and might be skewed by the noise from TV, etc... I'm not sure, though, and the larger the sample size, the better.
I'd still say politics. Of course there are a lot of component divisive issues rolled up into one's politics.
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:31 PM
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Probably race. On one hand you have whites who feel threatened by non whites, either afraid of them being criminals, taking their jobs, bringing bad habits and diseases, or supplanting their culture.

On the other side you have a coalition of non whites as well as whites who believe in multiculturalism.

I think that's the biggest division we have that causes our other divisions (political divisions come from racial divisions imo).

Race also causes the Civil War, the political realignment of the 60s, and arguably is part of why the south and plains states are at odds with the northeast and west coast.
This might be the most empirically solid one, despite exceptions here and there. Blacks vote 97% Democratic. You don't see that with gender, even though Republicans and Democrats are usually the men and women's parties, respectively - the gender gap is nothing compared to the race gap. Not even gays and lesbians vote 97% Democratic, IIRC. White women vote with the white party more than they vote with the women's party.
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Old 12-31-2018, 03:43 PM
SpoilerVirgin SpoilerVirgin is offline
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The biggest division in the U.S., as with almost everywhere in the world and throughout history, is class, or more properly economics - the haves and the have nots. Yes, certain haves may join together with certain have nots on a particular political issue or set of issues, but that's superficial. In our daily lives, in who we interact with, in who we love and marry, where we live, where and how well we are educated, the types of jobs we do, what we eat, what we wear, almost every aspect of life, we divide along economic lines. That's why I believe that the most workable solutions for the problems of the world will be economic ones.
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:03 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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The biggest division in the U.S., as with almost everywhere in the world and throughout history, is class, or more properly economics - the haves and the have nots. Yes, certain haves may join together with certain have nots on a particular political issue or set of issues, but that's superficial. In our daily lives, in who we interact with, in who we love and marry, where we live, where and how well we are educated, the types of jobs we do, what we eat, what we wear, almost every aspect of life, we divide along economic lines. That's why I believe that the most workable solutions for the problems of the world will be economic ones.
Republicans and democrats are at odds economically in general. The gop is the party of large business and the wealthy, the democrats are the party of workers.

But the FDR coalition involves southern whites, who were in the democratic coalition as a form of rebellion against the gop that supported the Civil War and reconstruction 70 years earlier.

When the democrats supported civil rights, southern whites became Republicans despite the gop having opposite views on class and economics. Without southern whites in the democratic coalition, we wouldn't have Medicare, medicaid, child labor abolition, labor laws, minimim wages, social security, etc. But once a party that opposed all these things told southern whites 'we are the party that believes whites are superior to blacks' all those southern whites totally switched their economic agenda.

Having said that, the rich and powerful love to use divide and conquer to keep the working class at each other's throats. Saudi Arabian billionaires fund propaganda to turn sunni vs shiite, Muslim vs jew, secularist vs traditionalist, middle east vs west, etc to distract the people from coming together to take down the plutocrats.

After multi racial rebellions happened in Virginia almost 400 years ago, Virginia instituted codes to separate blacks and whites so they'd stop uniting to take on the rich. Codes designed to dehumanize blacks so whites wouldn't unite with them.

So I don't know. Race seems both more important. Than class (as with southern whites) but then again race is used, among other divisions, by the rich to keep the poor fighting among themselves long enough for the rich to rob them all.

The question is how do you get people who identify with their race, nationality, gender, religion, etc to put their class first?
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:07 PM
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I just wish we could get along and all agree to riot and kill each other for the same reason.
This conflict over what divides us is tearing us apart.
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:08 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is online now
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Class divides us most. Everything else is a wedge to confuse class consciousness.
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:22 PM
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Religion. Particularly the really religious "rah-rahs" who think their religion has all the answers, is the only right one, and should be followed by everyone."
But this isn't much of a divider at all.

African-Americans overwhelmingly identify as Christian and vote overwhelmingly Democratic. They have a lot more in common, politically, with atheists, Muslims, Buddhists and other religions/non-religions who vote Democratic, than with white rural Southerners who also overwhelmingly identify as Christian but vote deep red.
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:22 PM
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Class divides us most. Everything else is a wedge to confuse class consciousness.
Bingo. You win the internet.

Condensed and concise.
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:42 PM
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Class divides us most. Everything else is a wedge to confuse class consciousness.
Maybe so, but perhaps a more fundamental distinction is whether or not a person is primarily motivated to value Humanity above all else (and with the 'all else' including self, but not God).
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:47 PM
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Religion. Particularly the really religious "rah-rahs" who think their religion has all the answers, is the only right one, and should be followed by everyone."
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But this isn't much of a divider at all.
I think it is and I agree with Annie. More grief caused world-wide from religion than anything else.
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Old 12-31-2018, 04:51 PM
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Empathy.
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Old 12-31-2018, 05:36 PM
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I'll first say I'm in the US...
The face in the mirror. You really need to get over yourselves.
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:31 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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But this isn't much of a divider at all.

African-Americans overwhelmingly identify as Christian and vote overwhelmingly Democratic. They have a lot more in common, politically, with atheists, Muslims, Buddhists and other religions/non-religions who vote Democratic, than with white rural Southerners who also overwhelmingly identify as Christian but vote deep red.
At root, I think there are 2 divisions.

In-groups vs out-groups

Lower class vs ownership class


The in-groups vs out-groups can encompass a wide range of traits. Skin color, religion, nationality, ethnicity, politics, gender, etc. It is based on the idea that in-group traits offers certain privileges, respect and opportunities denied to out-groups. Status is finite, and some groups enjoy more status than others. A good way to tell is what traits are over-represented among the powerful and influential. Among police, judges, politicians, etc. there are far more men, whites, christians, etc. than among the general public.

But not all in-group/out-group battles are the same. As you said, black christians are democrats despite christians being an in-group.

I think a lot of divisions are secondary to race. Religious division only really applies within white people. Even for immigration, my impression is that it is based on race. White conservatives are upset about brown skinned immigrants, they don't mind immigrants from Canada. Trump lauded immigrants from Sweden.

They should teach this subject in school.
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:37 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is online now
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After multi racial rebellions happened in Virginia almost 400 years ago, Virginia instituted codes to separate blacks and whites so they'd stop uniting to take on the rich. Codes designed to dehumanize blacks so whites wouldn't unite with them.
What you mean to say here is that Virginia *invented* blackness and whiteness so that they could then codify ways to divide the working class.

Before colonization, of course there were Africans and Amerinds and different races, but black and white didn't exist as categories of humans. It arose out of a philosophical need to decide who could be enslaved. First it was Christian vs. Heathen. Once the Heathen realized the conversion to Christianity was a simple process that gained them enormous rights, and the free laborers started taking their side, the Christian then decided a more color-based approach would address this threat to the labor supply.

Again, class is the fundamental division. "Race" and everything else is an artificial and intentional wedge to divide the working classes, in the interest of the owning classes.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 12-31-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:44 PM
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What Divides Us the Most?

The way we react to nazi's. Most find them abhorrent, while some- in the Oval Office-find them cute and snuggly.
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Old 12-31-2018, 07:04 PM
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The face in the mirror. You really need to get over yourselves.
Nice flag. The point was to compare, but you are probably ill-equipped.

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Class divides us most. Everything else is a wedge to confuse class consciousness.
I agree 99% with this.. Unfortunately, we have "real life" vs. "online life" which seems to be taking most of our time. (more distractions).

Last edited by MortSahlFan; 12-31-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 07:12 PM
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Nice flag. The point was to compare, but you are probably ill-equipped.

I'm serious. What divides you is the 1% - even 0.1% - of important stuff. Get over yourselves and recognise that
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Old 12-31-2018, 07:14 PM
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How that Brexit working out for you, man from Sane Reasonable Country of Reasonable Disputes?
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:07 PM
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Whether it’s class, race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, or any other fault line, I think there is one overarching theme that differentiates elected officials (and the judiciary) between Republicans and Democrats. Republicans largely tend to favor those who are already powerful and privileged, while Democrats largely tend to favor those who lack power and privilege.

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 12-31-2018 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 01-01-2019, 08:28 AM
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Probably race. On one hand you have whites who feel threatened by non whites, either afraid of them being criminals, taking their jobs, bringing bad habits and diseases, or supplanting their culture.

On the other side you have a coalition of non whites as well as whites who believe in multiculturalism.

I think that's the biggest division we have that causes our other divisions (political divisions come from racial divisions imo).

Race also causes the Civil War, the political realignment of the 60s, and arguably is part of why the south and plains states are at odds with the northeast and west coast.
I think THIS is what really drove the Trump phenomenon in 2015 and 2016. He used Race and culture/ethnicity to build up his own movement. Keep in mind that most of his economic platform at the time was indistinguishable from Democrats. But he won a primary, first because he appealed to raceial anxiety and concerns, and second because he can rally a room like no one else on the Republican side.

There were other reasons that Trump picked up support. But I think this was the main thing that differentiated Trump from other candidates.
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:16 AM
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People who value facts vs people who don’t.
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:25 AM
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I think it's actually very simple:

One side wants to be left alone to do what they want.
But they won't leave others alone to do what they want.
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:25 AM
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I think THIS is what really drove the Trump phenomenon in 2015 and 2016. He used Race and culture/ethnicity to build up his own movement. Keep in mind that most of his economic platform at the time was indistinguishable from Democrats. But he won a primary, first because he appealed to raceial anxiety and concerns, and second because he can rally a room like no one else on the Republican side.

There were other reasons that Trump picked up support. But I think this was the main thing that differentiated Trump from other candidates.
Yep. He said out loud what other people said in private.

I keep meeting conservatives who insist they are not racist, because in their minds a ‘racist’ is someone who literally wears a white hood. And yet over, and over, and over, research finds that racial anxiety, animus, and resentment were the strongest correlation in Trump voters. (Even compared to other Republicans)
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:26 AM
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The worst divider is the urge to demonize everyone who doesn't hold our cherished beliefs.

They can't possibly be misguided, dead wrong or uninformed.

They're evil.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 01-01-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:29 AM
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Everyone’s self defined idea of fairness.
“It’s not fair that they have more and I have less”
“It’s not fair that I should have to give up some of my more to someone else”
“It’s not fair that I can’t do what I want”
“It’s not fair that they get to do that”
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Old 01-01-2019, 11:58 AM
WernhamHogg WernhamHogg is offline
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The worst divider is the urge to demonize everyone who doesn't hold our cherished beliefs.

They can't possibly be misguided, dead wrong or uninformed.

They're evil.
And yet you fall into the same splitting. Those terrible other people who demonize everyone. Stupid rotten other people who aren't as good as you are and people like you who don't do that.
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Old 01-01-2019, 12:27 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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And yet you fall into the same splitting. Those terrible other people who demonize everyone. Stupid rotten other people who aren't as good as you are and people like you who don't do that.
I see it all the time, on this board and elsewhere. It affects many of various political persuasions, as well as those adhering to views on various scientific and pseudoscientific subjects. I'm not immune to the temptation to do it myself on occasion but strive not to.

Sorry if my post struck a bit too close to home for you.
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Old 01-01-2019, 12:53 PM
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Everyone’s self defined idea of fairness.
“It’s not fair that they have more and I have less”
“It’s not fair that I should have to give up some of my more to someone else”
“It’s not fair that I can’t do what I want”
“It’s not fair that they get to do that”
This as well. Almost everyone claims (and perhaps genuinely) clings to a moral sense of justice, fairness, right vs. wrong, and equality. And the intensity of political warfare is because of such demand for fairness, not in spite of it.
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Old 01-01-2019, 01:15 PM
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Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft

They are idealized ways of looking at social organization that can loosely be translated as community and society.

Community exists relationally. Social organization functions because of shared informal codes of conduct and relationships of the participants. It rebels against more formal legal constructs. It functions best in small homogenous groupings.

Society exists contractually. It functions because of shared legal codes and rigid enforcement of violating those codes. It rebels against relational social structures that by their nature must be unlevel. It functions best in social organizations that lack expected personal connections so much better in large social groupings.

Both have pros and cons, but largely we have seen community being increasingly marginalized as transience, urbanization and globalization have become larger features of our world.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:09 AM
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Class divides us most. Everything else is a wedge to confuse class consciousness.
Except that isn't quite true. The red/blue divide isn't evenly split between black/white, rich/poor, or urban/rural. Colleges are full of affluent liberals and rural areas are full of poor conservatives. Wall Street tends to run conservative while Silicon Valley tends to run liberal.


If I were to define the divide, I would say it's split between people who want things to stay the same (conservatives) and people who want things to change (liberals).

Conservatives fear societal change because they worry about becoming marginalized in a world where traditional social structures have changed.

Liberals believe they are making the world a better place for everyone, but their policies often have unintended negative consequences.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:28 AM
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Everyone blames others for the problems in the world. One side blames those with less power than themselves; the poor, immigrants, minorities. The other side blames those with more power than themselves; the wealthy, corporations and the politically connected.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:48 AM
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We are NOT divided.

Not to the degree that everyone says. It's ideological discourse designed to provide political advantage to certain interests, and when people continue to mindlessly echo this conceit it just becomes self-amplifying.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:48 AM
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I'll go with Joseph Heath's position that it's rationalism (usually liberal, but not always) versus intuition and tradition (usually conservative, but not always.)
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Old 01-04-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
I'll go with Joseph Heath's position that it's rationalism (usually liberal, but not always) versus intuition and tradition (usually conservative, but not always.)
Actually I have tended to find rationality to mostly end up in the "mildly liberal" zone, whereas intuition (not tradition though) is used to anchor not only conservative but also radically progressive perspectives. In the latter camp you'll find some people very frustrated at the way that rationalists insist on a rule-following game in their discourses and use the rules of the game to reject axioms they don't regard as axiomatic while treating others as self-evidently real because they like them better, etc. (You also of course have plain old "frothing at the mouth" folks in the latter camp who prefer to argue from "if you believe that you're just bad and wrong and evil, which is why you're wrong").

Last edited by AHunter3; 01-04-2019 at 09:40 AM.
  #49  
Old 01-04-2019, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guizot View Post
We are NOT divided.

Not to the degree that everyone says. It's ideological discourse designed to provide political advantage to certain interests, and when people continue to mindlessly echo this conceit it just becomes self-amplifying.
Right. Our system offers binary options for a gradient world, without enough granularity to dither the black and white into meaningful greyness.
  #50  
Old 01-04-2019, 12:41 PM
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Stupidity, mostly. But then again, humans fundamentally are more alike than different.

So there you go.
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