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Old 12-30-2018, 06:27 PM
CHealy7 CHealy7 is offline
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The Henry L Gates Case

A decade on from this case,would you agree with Barack Hussein Obama's statement that the police "acted stupidly"?
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Old 12-30-2018, 06:29 PM
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I would not disagree with that statement.
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Old 12-30-2018, 06:45 PM
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They sure did.

You've made some curious decisions with respect to middle names.
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Old 12-30-2018, 07:16 PM
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OK, just for the sake of argument I'm going to accept the "police side" of the encounter, as reported in the Wikipedia article, as being true.

The initial decision to investigate a couple of guys reportedly forcing open the door of a house strikes me (as a Middle-Class White Guy) as being one of the less egregious cases of "_____-ing While Black" that I've heard of. And, just going strictly by the police-reported side of things, maybe Professor Gates was being a little unreasonable and/or full of himself.

So fucking what? Once you, the Law Enforcement Officer, have determined that the "male suspect" reportedly breaking into the private residence at XYZ Ware Street is, in fact, the homeowner (again going strictly by the "police side" of that article, Gates had at that point shown the cop some kind of photo ID), you swiftly terminate the encounter. "OK, Professor, sorry for the mix-up there. Yes, sir, I'm sorry I didn't recognize you"--insert inward for the Entitled Celebrity, if you like--"My name is Sgt. James Crowley; my badge number is blah-blah-blah; my supervisor's name is yadda-yadda-yadda; OK, sir, you have a nice day, sir, I'm leaving now, sir, buh-bye"; and then you make like a baby and you fucking split. You can have a good laugh and a jeer at these fucking snooty Hahvahd Celebrity Professor-types ("Don't you know who I am?") down at the cop bar after your shift is over.

So, yes, not so much the initial police investigation of the suspected break-in at XYZ Ware Street; but the arrest of someone from his own front porch for what amounted to "contempt of cop" was not merely stupid but was also bullying and downright thuggish behavior on the part of the police.
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Old 12-30-2018, 09:13 PM
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Yup, stupidly. Even if Sgt. Crowley's account is accurate and Gates was acting out, there was no reason or foundation for an arrest.

Just as an aside to the OP: using Obama's middle name is a common tactic by Nazis, birthers, and others of that ilk to prejudicially connect the former president to Muslims in general and to Saddam Hussein in particular.
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Old 12-30-2018, 10:24 PM
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Of course it was stupid.
What do you think, O.P.?
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CHealy7 View Post
A decade on from this case,would you agree with Barack Hussein Obama's statement that the police "acted stupidly"?
What was Louis Gate's middle name?
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:23 PM
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What was Louis Gate's middle name?
Petard?
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Old 12-31-2018, 12:14 AM
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Letís make this thread worthwhile with an obligatory xkcd.
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Old 12-31-2018, 07:34 AM
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I'll judge that Obama was in the wrong.

1) He didn't know the truth of the case. So while it may be that he was correct that the officer failed to de-escalate the situation when he could have, it is pure chance that he is correct on that matter.

2) The review that was conducted made the determination that both parties were in the wrong, so Obama was also wrong in "clearing" Mr. Gates - again, without knowing anything about the facts.

3) While it may be the case that it is worth publicizing discrimination by the police, as a politician, it does harm to that effort to choose a case where the facts might turn against you as your example. If BLM had chosen a case more like the one of Botham Jean to rally behind instead of the case of Michael Brown, for example, they might have accomplished a lot more. If the press and everyone digs into the situation and the facts go against what you were preaching, then you have a taller mountain to climb the next time you want to make your argument. People don't give you their ear as easily the second time around, nor are they willing to pay as much attention.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:45 AM
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I'll judge that Obama was in the wrong.
You make some valid arguments, but from the context of the OP's "a decade on" qualifier, these are all criticisms that could (and were) made at the time and aren't any more true now than back then. Arguably less apt with the benefit of hindsight.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:49 AM
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It is a testament to how stable our democracy has become that this incident from ten years ago warrants revisiting. I’m pretty sure it was the last controversial statement from the Oval Office.

Last edited by madmonk28; 12-31-2018 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:19 AM
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You make some valid arguments, but from the context of the OP's "a decade on" qualifier, these are all criticisms that could (and were) made at the time and aren't any more true now than back then. Arguably less apt with the benefit of hindsight.
So my criticisms are valid and not true? I think you may need to expand on your argument. To my knowledge, it is very difficult for something to be both valid and false.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-31-2018 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:27 AM
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I think Obama should have refrained from commenting. As President, his remarks have power to influence public beliefs and sway potential jurors. This could have posed problems had this been litigated.

But the cop did act stupidly.

Last edited by you with the face; 12-31-2018 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 10:11 AM
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So my criticisms are valid and not true? I think you may need to expand on your argument. To my knowledge, it is very difficult for something to be both valid and false.
Never said "not true".

What I did note was (1) that the arguments are equally true now as 10 years ago and (2) with the 'decade on' qualifier they may be less relevant than they were back then with the benefit of hindsight.

I.e. your criticisms could have been made 10 years ago, been equally true AND valid, which means there's nothing in the intervening 10 years that has really changed.

And that seems to be the crux of the problem with the OP. This was a minor incident from 10 years ago. Nothing new has developed in the intervening 10 years, nor have the conclusions we can draw. The purpose of bringing it up in the first place seems to be an attempt by the OP merely to criticize Obama using an incredibly leading question (featuring Obama's middle name, which is a fairly well known tactic in certain circles) that is just shy enough of JAQ'ing off to provide at least some cover.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Great Antibob View Post
Never said "not true".
"aren't any more true now than back then" <-

Quote:
(1) that the arguments are equally true now
Typo, then. No worries.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-31-2018 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:16 AM
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The purpose of bringing it up in the first place seems to be an attempt by the OP merely to criticize Obama using an incredibly leading question (featuring Obama's middle name, which is a fairly well known tactic in certain circles) that is just shy enough of JAQ'ing off to provide at least some cover.
I don't get that impression at all from the poster's previous offerings, which included at least one mention of "President Obama." His or her thread-starting skills could use some work, though.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:32 AM
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... Barack Hussein Obama's...
I'm proud to live in a country that had no problem electing Mr. Obama to be the President twice, although his middle name is so scary to the easily scared.
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:46 AM
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You've made some curious decisions with respect to middle names.
Admire his forbearance. Tooth is stranger than friction.

Henry Louis Gates is just 5-5-5 but
Barack Hussei Nobama ... Well: Count em and weep.

"We Report, You Decide."
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Old 12-31-2018, 12:06 PM
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Admire his forbearance. Tooth is stranger than friction.

Henry Louis Gates is just 5-5-5 but
Barack Hussei Nobama ... Well: Count em and weep.

"We Report, You Decide."
"We Distort, You Abide."
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Old 12-31-2018, 02:37 PM
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Moderating

This thread is about Gates, Obama, and the police response. Leave aside discussion about middle names and personal comments aabout the OP.

[/moderating]
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Old 12-31-2018, 03:28 PM
CHealy7 CHealy7 is offline
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Of course it was stupid.
What do you think, O.P.?
While I believe Obama acted in good faith, I tend to agree with his later comment that he could have "calibrated his words differently".
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Old 12-31-2018, 07:03 PM
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While I believe Obama acted in good faith, I tend to agree with his later comment that he could have "calibrated his words differently".
Iím sure he would appreciate a note from you letting him know. Itís probably been a major concern of his these last ten years.
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Old 12-31-2018, 08:46 PM
CHealy7 CHealy7 is offline
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I’m sure he would appreciate a note from you letting him know. It’s probably been a major concern of his these last ten years.
Hey, don't blow a gasket on me, baby. I'm just posing a question on an internet forum. Happy New Year

Last edited by CHealy7; 12-31-2018 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 01-01-2019, 12:59 AM
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I really don't think the President should get involved in small, local cases at all. I admit I mostly ignore politics but I do recall Obama doing this several times. Each time I wondered why the President is making it his business.

Did other Presidents do this? I'm not trying to vilify Obama, it's a real question.

Dennis
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Old 01-01-2019, 06:06 AM
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I really don't think the President should get involved in small, local cases at all. I admit I mostly ignore politics but I do recall Obama doing this several times. Each time I wondered why the President is making it his business.

Did other Presidents do this? I'm not trying to vilify Obama, it's a real question.

Dennis
I'd say that the fact that you think an entirely disproportionate police response to a black man being in his own home is a "small, local case" confirms that you mostly ignore politics.
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Old 01-01-2019, 11:39 AM
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OK, just for the sake of argument I'm going to accept the "police side" of the encounter, as reported in the Wikipedia article, as being true.

The initial decision to investigate a couple of guys reportedly forcing open the door of a house strikes me (as a Middle-Class White Guy) as being one of the less egregious cases of "_____-ing While Black" that I've heard of. And, just going strictly by the police-reported side of things, maybe Professor Gates was being a little unreasonable and/or full of himself.

So fucking what? Once you, the Law Enforcement Officer, have determined that the "male suspect" reportedly breaking into the private residence at XYZ Ware Street is, in fact, the homeowner (again going strictly by the "police side" of that article, Gates had at that point shown the cop some kind of photo ID), you swiftly terminate the encounter. "OK, Professor, sorry for the mix-up there. Yes, sir, I'm sorry I didn't recognize you"--insert inward for the Entitled Celebrity, if you like--"My name is Sgt. James Crowley; my badge number is blah-blah-blah; my supervisor's name is yadda-yadda-yadda; OK, sir, you have a nice day, sir, I'm leaving now, sir, buh-bye"; and then you make like a baby and you fucking split. You can have a good laugh and a jeer at these fucking snooty Hahvahd Celebrity Professor-types ("Don't you know who I am?") down at the cop bar after your shift is over.

So, yes, not so much the initial police investigation of the suspected break-in at XYZ Ware Street; but the arrest of someone from his own front porch for what amounted to "contempt of cop" was not merely stupid but was also bullying and downright thuggish behavior on the part of the police.
I agree with all of this. The initial investigation was fine, and Gates was WAAY out of line and likely a complete asshole.

But this is the United States of America. A person has a right to be an asshole.

I think it was criminal that he was arrested. Crowley should have been fired and prosecuted for what he did, not invited to the White House. Police officer or not, you cannot use physical force on someone because they hurt your feelings.
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Old 01-01-2019, 09:57 PM
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Actually, never mind. I just looked at the OP's other threads. This isn't worth the effort.

Last edited by mhendo; 01-01-2019 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 01-02-2019, 03:01 PM
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Actually, never mind. I just looked at the OP's other threads. This isn't worth the effort.
Care to explain this?
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Old 01-02-2019, 04:45 PM
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from the OP's linked article -
On July 22, President Barack Obama said about the incident, "I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that. But I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home, and, number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there's a long history in this country of African Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately." Law enforcement organizations and members objected to Obama's comments and criticized his handling of the issue. In the aftermath, Obama stated that he regretted his comments and hoped that the situation could become a "teachable moment".

Gates could have tried to understand Crowley's view of the situation and could have spoken respectfully to Crowley.


Even Barack Hussein Obama (that's his real/full his name) realized that he spoken without knowing the facts, and he, himself, claims that he regrets having done so. O'bama may have even come to understand that the charge against Gates was not that he was in his own home, but one of disorderly conduct.

"Thanks for checking on my home in response to a citizen's 9-1-1 call. I appreciate the job you are doing, and I'm grateful for the protection you provide." Said no Henry Louis Gates ever.
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Old 01-02-2019, 05:11 PM
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O'bama may have even come to understand that the charge against Gates was not that he was in his own home, but one of disorderly conduct.
And what a bullshit charge it was.
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Old 01-02-2019, 07:18 PM
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So would it not have been possible to arrest him for Disorderly Conduct inside his own home ? (as opposed to on his porch) If so, the cop "lets continue this outside" is the cop saying "please come outside so I can arrest you".
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Old 01-02-2019, 11:32 PM
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My thoughts:

a) H L Gates was understandably pissed off at having been reported by neighbors;

b) Gates, like most black men, have probably had to deal with this shit before and get tired of it.

c) There's no evidence that the officer involved acted with malice or racial bias in responding to the call and in his initial handling the incident

d) There is (some) evidence that H L Gates was acting in a manner that might have irritated Officer Crowley

e) Officer Crowley should have walked away, but he's human and doesn't like being yelled at and threatened with "Do you know who I am" (I don't either, and I doubt you all do).

f) Gates continued to troll Officer Crowley, who probably would have left had he just shut his fucking mouth and gone back inside.

g) That said, I wasn't there. Maybe Officer Crowley could have said "Shit, I'm sorry. It's a misunderstanding." Maybe he did say it and it wasn't reported.

In short, both Gates and Crowley could have handled this better.

h) Obama didn't need to comment on it so frankly as he did, when he did. But the reaction was waaaaaaay over the top.

Actually, I think Obama's comment in many ways was truly the beginning of his presidency, because while Obama passed the stimulus and TARP and a few other things, let's be real: everyone in this country was waiting with baited breath to see just how this country would handle it the first time that Barack H Obama decided to step out of the conventional suit-and-tie president and asserted his blackness. It was that day when America, for real, had its first black president.
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Old 01-03-2019, 09:26 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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You know, the current president frequently comments on legal cases that involve associates of his , and his lawyer, Giuliania, has even compared the FBI to Nazis. Why is this singular incident from the Obama presidency relevant?

Last edited by madmonk28; 01-03-2019 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:45 AM
Gerald II Gerald II is offline
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Actually, I think Obama's comment in many ways was truly the beginning of his presidency, because while Obama passed the stimulus and TARP and a few other things, let's be real: everyone in this country was waiting with baited breath to see just how this country would handle it the first time that Barack H Obama decided to step out of the conventional suit-and-tie president and asserted his blackness. It was that day when America, for real, had its first black president.
I see that was the least he should have done, that and other times with situations involving African-Americans and the police.
If he doesn't say anything at all, things could get worse. The frustrations a community might feel when we finally get a black President, and still nothing changes, and worse, he stays quiet as if he doesn't care?
And if he's perceived as doing too much it's like he's biased to everyone else. He was in a tough position.

And I also agree, that the reaction to Obama was way over the top.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:57 AM
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And I also agree, that the reaction to Obama was way over the top.
Me three. There is nothing that should be considered controversial about what he said.

The word "stupidly" stood out the first time I read this. But, upon reflection, I think it's fair. A police officer is supposed to be trained in diffusing conflict and reducing tensions. The homeowner was pissed off and a non-stupid police officer could have recognized that and resolved the situation without arrest. Regardless, sometimes regrettable things happen. It's not fire hoses and dogs on peaceful protesters. We can discuss and move on. Obama's comments, as usual, were measured, thoughtful and helpful.

Quote:
"I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that. But I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home, and, number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there's a long history in this country of African Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately."
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:08 PM
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If it's "separate and apart" from this incident, why bring it up? If it's not "separate and apart", why did he say it was?

"I don't know what factor race played in this, so I will mention it anyway.'

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:18 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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If it's "separate and apart" from this incident, why bring it up? If it's not "separate and apart", why did he say it was?
It was separate and apart. What's wrong with saying "I don't know if this was a racial incident, but we must recognize that there are a lot of racial problems facing our nation and this could be one example."


Quote:
"I don't know what factor race played in this, so I will mention it anyway.'
See above.

A lot of Americans want to deny or minimize the existence of improper treatment of people of color, especially when law enforcement is involved. I think it was appropriate and important for the President to push back on that idea.

Last edited by Procrustus; 01-07-2019 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:22 PM
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Gates clearly believed from the outset that he was being treated differently due to his race. You can argue that Obama shouldn't have said anything at all, but to ask why he had to go and mention race is just being obtuse.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:30 PM
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It was separate and apart. What's wrong with saying "I don't know if this was a racial incident, but we must recognize that there are a lot of racial problems facing our nation and this could be one example."
Black-on-black crime is a serious issue in the US as well, but Obama didn't mention it. What would be wrong with saying "A lot of black people who are arrested in the US richly deserve it. Maybe this is another case where that is true. But it's fair to say that Mr. Gates acted just as stupidly as the police. But of course, I don't know all the facts."

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:33 PM
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Black-on-black crime is a serious issue in the US as well, but Obama didn't mention it.
II didn't think even you would have the chutzpah to go with the "black-on-black crime" deflection in this discussion. Guess I was wrong.

Last edited by mhendo; 01-07-2019 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:43 PM
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Black-on-black crime is a serious issue in the US as well, but Obama didn't mention it.
As is white-on-white, Hispanic-on-Hispanic, and Asian-on-Asian crime. Do those bother you as much?
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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Oh come on, you guys know his thing with black people. Do we have to rehash it again?
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:17 PM
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Some people only occasionally want to rehash, and we don't need to use harsh language to describe them. On the other hand, some people always engage, thus disobeying the first rule of holes, and they deserve to be called "diggers".
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:18 PM
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Gates could have tried to understand Crowley's view of the situation and could have spoken respectfully to Crowley.

Even Barack Hussein Obama (that's his real/full his name)...
Is speaking disrespectfully a crime in the U.S.? How about the asshole Republiman who shrieked "You lie!" at Obama's State of the Union address? Should he have been taken away in handcuffs and booked?

But thanks for the middle name. I always wondered what the H. stood for.

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Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
You know, the current president frequently comments on legal cases that involve associates of his , and his lawyer, Giuliania, has even compared the FBI to Nazis. Why is this singular incident from the Obama presidency relevant?

Tu Quoque. Trump defrauds "University students" out of millions. Obama photocopies a birth certificate. Same-same. Cheney smirks while lying to start a war with his friends getting billions in profits. Hillary is unaware that such a man could be this malicious and votes to give Bush negotiating power. Hillary is the real villain here. Obama invites a harassed black for a beer. Trump calls for his punks to beat up newsmen. Tu Quoque. Same-same.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Black-on-black crime is a serious issue in the US as well, but Obama didn't mention it.
II didn't think even you would have the chutzpah to go with the "black-on-black crime" deflection in this discussion. Guess I was wrong.
Serving artichokes with raspberries is a seriously flawed culinary idea, but Obama didn't mention that either.

Last edited by septimus; 01-07-2019 at 02:19 PM.
  #46  
Old 01-07-2019, 02:29 PM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is offline
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I'll chime in with the observation that sometime police racism is based on black and white and sometimes it is based on blue and not-blue. Getting arrested for pissing off an LEO for doing something completely legal is more of the latter.
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  #47  
Old 01-07-2019, 08:01 PM
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Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Black-on-black crime is a serious issue in the US as well, but Obama didn't mention it.
Wow.
  #48  
Old 01-07-2019, 10:10 PM
Gerald II Gerald II is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
If it's "separate and apart" from this incident, why bring it up? If it's not "separate and apart", why did he say it was?

"I don't know what factor race played in this, so I will mention it anyway.'

Regards,
Shodan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
A lot of Americans want to deny or minimize the existence of improper treatment of people of color, especially when law enforcement is involved.
Exactly.
You have some people who are anti-cop and assume law enforcement is all racist, and then you have others who ALWAYS take the side of police in cases of discrimination and/or police brutality involving people of color.

Quote:
I think it was appropriate and important for the President to push back on that idea.[/B]
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Black-on-black crime is a serious issue in the US as well, but Obama didn't mention it.
It should be crime in general and not, "black-on-black crime," as that's usually a talking point I only hear being made by conservative pundits.

But in regards to the Henry L. Gates situation, Obama SHOULD have used it as a platform to critique the entire justice system and call out systemic racism.
  #49  
Old 01-07-2019, 11:08 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Is speaking disrespectfully a crime in the U.S.? How about the asshole Republiman who shrieked "You lie!" at Obama's State of the Union address? Should he have been taken away in handcuffs and booked?

But thanks for the middle name. I always wondered what the H. stood for.
(post shortened)

Interesting segue. Meanwhile, I found it interesting that Obama chose to talk about an important issue after admitting that he didn't know the facts.

"On July 22, President Barack Obama said about the incident, "I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that."
- Barack H. Obama
  #50  
Old 01-07-2019, 11:11 PM
Chingon Chingon is offline
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Obama quoted himself?
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