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  #101  
Old 09-12-2018, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Because errr, that would be the hair colour and style the current US Open champion wore during the match in question.
No, it wouldn't. She has a blond ponytail, yes, but brown hair. The comic makes her entirely blonde.
  #102  
Old 09-12-2018, 03:33 PM
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To make a caricature, you take some feature of the subject that's outside of the norm, and you draw it as even more outside the norm. If someone has a nose that's bigger than average, you make it a lot bigger than average. If someone has an unusually short neck, then you make it even shorter, and so on.

But this artist seems to have decided that the way in which Williams' appearance is outside of the norm is that she has West African ancestry, and so exaggerated the traits associated (correctly or incorrectly) with that ancestry. The underlying assumption is that the "norm" is necessarily white. And it fails as a caricature, because it doesn't actually look like Williams specifically, as opposed to any other black woman.
  #103  
Old 09-12-2018, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
The thing is that the caricature in the cartoon isn't even a good caricature. Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin.
Thatís my main problem with this cartoon; itís a caricature that is a placeholder for Williams, but actually looks nothing like her.

Her lips are fuller than your typical white womanís but not thick enough to exaggerate without straying into the unrecognizable. In the cartoon, her face is consumed by the size of her lips and mouth.

Her body is muscular but itís not fat. The cartoon suggests obesity, not brawn.

Truth is, very few of the cartoons that have appeared in this thread really resemble her, even the ones that donít look like racist caricatures. I donít know why that is; are her features that hard to capture? Her cheekbones and narrow eyes seem like easy enough things to depict.
  #104  
Old 09-12-2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
The answer appears to be yes, but only if the caricature is positive. If it is negative, it is racist.
Except multiple examples of non-racist negative caricatures have been offered in this thread. Did you miss them? I'll quote the posts for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
This isn't athletic and black, its fat with aunt Jemima lips. As an alternative consider this or this or this. They are black, athletic, angry, clearly recognizable as Serena but to my eye at least do a better job of actually characterizing her, rather that just being stereo typical angry fat black woman with the addition of serena's frizzy pony tail to make it recognizable as her.
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Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin View Post
I found two more caricatures of Serena that are accurate, but not racist.

Last edited by BigT; 09-12-2018 at 03:42 PM.
  #105  
Old 09-12-2018, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
The answer appears to be yes, but only if the caricature is positive. If it is negative, it is racist.
BS. Here is a negative political cartoon involving Michele Obama. Negative but not at all racist.
  #106  
Old 09-12-2018, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin View Post
No. The cartoon I linked is an exaggerated portrait of Serena Williams. It includes her features and is recognizable as her. The cartoon in the OP is a depiction of a racial stereotype. It has discredited stereotyped features and is recognizable as an ignorant portrait of what was once called an African savage.
Are the discredited stereotyped features being big, muscular, black, angry, scary looking, and with big lips and frizzy hair? Or was it the tennis dress, or the destroyed racket?

Regards,
Shodan
  #107  
Old 09-12-2018, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Except multiple examples of non-racist negative caricatures have been offered in this thread. Did you miss them? I'll quote the posts for you:





(That said, I personally think this one edges on racism, again, because they do the big lips thing. Don't fucking do that. That is the second most racist part of blackface--the first being the coal black skin.)
Big lips arenít racist if the person has big lips. Or even if they donít. You got to put a bone in the nose.
  #108  
Old 09-12-2018, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Are the discredited stereotyped features being big, muscular, black, angry, scary looking, and with big lips and frizzy hair? Or was it the tennis dress, or the destroyed racket?

Regards,
Shodan
The discredited features are primarily the topknot, with no hair at all above her ears, the shape and structure of the mouth, and the foreshortened pose, all of which are recognizable as offensive African stereotypes, and none of which are recognizable as Serena Williams.
  #109  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:01 PM
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It strikes me that someone who is in the cartooning business should know the difference even if some of us here, ahem, don't. This seems like your typical right-wing "build the deniability in up front" ploy, so that when someone points out the racism you can say: "That's not what I meant at all. You must be the one with the problem." In short, all the asshole of the honest racist but none of the balls.
  #110  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by andros View Post
What the entire fuck.

Yes.

Yes, it is a goddamn racist caricature.

The "good person" is depicted as slim, blonde, (quite arguably) white, tidy and quiet.

The "bad person" is depicted as fat, big-lipped, huge-mouthed, frazzle-haired, irrational, and screaming literally like a baby.

It's the Sapphire stereotype with just a touch of golliwog thrown in.

Racist as fuck.
I have to agree with you. Not about Osaka so much, she really does have some blonde hair and you can't really see her facial features very well, but the Williams depiction is certainly racist. I don't really see how it could be argued otherwise.
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  #111  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:10 PM
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Yes.
  #112  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Why would I have to know you personally to judge your arguing tactics in this thread? You provided no definition of the term before an example was given, and continue to not provide one. And yet any example given doesn't fit. That sure suggests changing the definition to me.

If I'm wrong, then tell me what your definition is. One that doesn't seem to equivocate to leave out all of the other examples in the thread.

I also note you didn't comment on the rest of what I said. Ignore that last snarky paragraph. Do you disagree with the rest of what I said? If so, why?

My argument is simply that you cannot caricature a black woman by using the old racist stereotypes. You can't give her comically large "witch doctor" lips, make her fatter than she is, or change her kempt curly hair to that wiry mess used in racist cartoons.

Any use of the stereotypes that were used before in racist caricature are not allowed, and will be deemed racist.
You suggested then, and do so again here by the use of the word "tactics" and by suggesting that I will look until I find a definition that suits my argument best, that I am not out to debate fairly, but to do the opposite just to come out on top in an argument. Certainly there are many people who do this online. I do not. If you have evidence that I do, then show it, otherwise you are making an unfounded assumption.

Do we really have to start defining commonly known terms? Fine, I'll go with this one, the first one I found just so you know: "a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect."

The Knight cartoon does this, unquestionably. It is a caricature. The other in question, shown here, while not a completely accurate depiction of Serena nor McEnroe, does not reach the level of caricature, nor even come close. I see not a single exaggerated feature, for instance. Of course this is my opinion. It's okay if we disagree about if it is a caricature. Just know this is my honest belief, and not a tactic.

As for your comments about Serena, yes, I should have responded. I apologize. So, here: in the cartoon, Serena is not overly fat, but she certainly isn't thin in real life, either. Serena's hair at the Open was frizzy and somewhat unkempt, which the artist exaggerated. I don't know what "normal" lips are, but Serena's aren't exactly thin. Exaggerated in the cartoon, but not to a racist degree.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-12-2018 at 04:15 PM. Reason: changed my example of "shop around" to look (look until I find...
  #113  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:22 PM
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This story on the cartoon includes a bit of reaction to it, including from black women: https://mic.com/articles/191194/sere...lia-herald-sun

I would also disagree with Shodan’s assertion that Williams is “scary looking.”

Last edited by Leaper; 09-12-2018 at 04:23 PM.
  #114  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:28 PM
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The thing is that the caricature in the cartoon isn't even a good caricature. Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin.
Fair enough, but the artist, for what I know about him, is a cartoonist first, and not really a caricaturist. Doesn't mean he can't draw a caricature of course, even if it's a bad one.
  #115  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:41 PM
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The depiction is most definately fat. Its torso is wider than it is tall. As far as Aunt Jemima I realize she has has had a make over in recent years to make her less racist but for the purposes of stereotype this is the stereo type aunt Jemima I was thinking of.

As for the rest: Did you even read my post or click on my links? The frizzy hair was the one thing I said they got right in the caricature, and yes a black woman can get angry, all of the other non-racist examples I gave had her being angry, my whole point was that it is possible to present an angry black woman without making it racist.
Fair enough on Aunt Jemima, and you are correct on my 'angry' comment also. I badly misinterpreted what you wrote.
  #116  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:50 PM
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No, not racist. It shows exaggerated caricature features and shows the actions of a specific individual.
  #117  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:08 PM
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Oh, bullshit. The only way this couldn't have been 'intended' as racist is if racial prejudice were so deeply embedded in the cartoonist's soul that no conscious intent on his part was needed to produce racist caricatures, that racism was his autopilot setting when considering black people.
I guess there's no reason to continue the discussion, then. Thanks for clearing this up.
  #118  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:26 PM
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I guess there's no reason to continue the discussion, then. Thanks for clearing this up.
In all seriousness, I'm not serious what you hope to achieve through your continued argument. Your opposition has clearly laid out objective reasons why the character in question is racist - it hews closer to classic racist caricatures than to a caricature of the specific person in question, and only does this for the black person. The response to this seems to vacillate between "I don't see it and I'm the god-emperor of racism" and "There's no such thing as racism unless there's a bone through their nose". Those are pretty poor responses. Are you planning to do better?
  #119  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CairoCarol View Post
Yes it's racist. Here's a (rather gentle, actually) example of the "ignorant savage" cartoon most of us can recognize.

Note that it shares two feature with the racist cartoon that all of the non-racist examples of Serena drawings do not have:

1) Topknot
2) Large earrings

In actual photos of the event, Serena's hair was tied toward the back of her head, not in a topknot, and she certainly isn't wearing garishly large earrings.
You link to a google search? Seriously? Basically none of the first page results are remotely racist on my google. And the original OPs cartoon does not have large earings.

That said, he OP cartoon is pretty hard to defend.

Last edited by CarnalK; 09-12-2018 at 05:29 PM.
  #120  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
The thing is that the caricature in the cartoon isn't even a good caricature. Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin.
Yeah, when I first looked at it I was in the "doesn't seem racist to me, but I could see how others might find it racist" camp, but considering the above, that seems to suggest a higher likelihood that it was intentional (or perhaps subconsciously drawing racist stereotypes). That being said, frizzy hair + tennis racket basically is all that's needed to identify her as Serena - I haven't seen any of the cartoonists other work so who knows if he even has the skills to do a good caricature. If he has accurately caricatured other people in the past and went with a generic stereotypical look here, that seems more incriminating than if none of the drawings that he does ever look like the intended subject. Does the artist have a past history of racist content?

It's interesting how subjective everyone's take on the picture is, though - the character definitely looks muscular to me, not fat, and it also doesn't look like a top knot to me - it just looks like to me that the character is jumping with her torso leaned forward. The face/lips are the only things that look stereotypical to me.
  #121  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:51 PM
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In all seriousness, I'm not serious what you hope to achieve through your continued argument. Your opposition has clearly laid out objective reasons why the character in question is racist - it hews closer to classic racist caricatures than to a caricature of the specific person in question, and only does this for the black person. The response to this seems to vacillate between "I don't see it and I'm the god-emperor of racism" and "There's no such thing as racism unless there's a bone through their nose". Those are pretty poor responses. Are you planning to do better?

That comment is in regard to whatever RTFirefly might respond with, should he chose to do so, in regards to specific reasons he may have to support his contention that the cartoon is racist. Short of that, or *new* arguments made by others, I in fact don't intend to continue the discussion. I've said my piece.

As for the rest of your post, you have conveniently left out specific, credible arguments against the racism accusation, while pretending that the only other relevant comments are about bones through noses, or god-emperors of racism, whatever the hell they are. Finally, I don't intend to go back through the thread and quote better, "non-poor" responses here, but I think if you do, you will surely find some.
  #122  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
As for the rest of your post, you have conveniently left out specific, credible arguments against the racism accusation, while pretending that the only other relevant comments are about bones through noses, or god-emperors of racism, whatever the hell they are. Finally, I don't intend to go back through the thread and quote better, "non-poor" responses here, but I think if you do, you will surely find some.
There's some side discussion about whether or not Naomi Osaka was caricatured in a racist manner (general consensus: no) and whether the Tyron Woodley test makes certain people feel uncomfortable (general consensus: yes). Nothing specific or credible disputing the racism accusation in question except perhaps the claim that it's impossible to caricature people with thick lips. (That's specific argument, though not a credible one.)
  #123  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:14 PM
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There's some side discussion about whether or not Naomi Osaka was caricatured in a racist manner (general consensus: no) and whether the Tyron Woodley test makes certain people feel uncomfortable (general consensus: yes). Nothing specific or credible disputing the racism accusation in question except perhaps the claim that it's impossible to caricature people with thick lips. (That's specific argument, though not a credible one.)
In keeping with my statement, I've already said where I stand on Osaka (post #4). I read and responded to the first Tyron Woodley post, found it ridiculous, and haven't read anything else regarding it. Arguments have been made disputing the racism. I think many are credible, and you do not. Fair enough, but we have nothing more to discuss about that then, do we?

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-12-2018 at 06:16 PM.
  #124  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
To make a caricature, you take some feature of the subject that's outside of the norm, and you draw it as even more outside the norm. If someone has a nose that's bigger than average, you make it a lot bigger than average. If someone has an unusually short neck, then you make it even shorter, and so on.

But this artist seems to have decided that the way in which Williams' appearance is outside of the norm is that she has West African ancestry, and so exaggerated the traits associated (correctly or incorrectly) with that ancestry. The underlying assumption is that the "norm" is necessarily white. And it fails as a caricature, because it doesn't actually look like Williams specifically, as opposed to any other black woman.
Yes, I think this is a perfect explanation of why that caricature feels racist. Is “large lips” a defining feature of Serena? She does not strike me as having unusually large lips for a black woman, no; nor even relative to most white women for that matter. So that’s a caricature of a generic stereotypical black woman, not Serena. The face bears no resemblance at all.

The artist might argue that he exaggrated the mouth because of the “baby tantrum” aspect, but even if that’s the intent, the effect is a racist stereotype.

Last edited by Riemann; 09-12-2018 at 06:20 PM.
  #125  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
In keeping with my statement, I've already said where I stand on Osaka (post #4). I read and responded to the first Tyron Woodley post, found it ridiculous, and haven't read anything else regarding it. Arguments have been made disputing the racism. I think many are credible, and you do not. Fair enough, but we have nothing more to discuss then, do we?
I certainly agree that nobody who is for some reason defending this obviously racist caricature will change their stated opinions due to argument on some dumb message board.

Except for Delayed Reflex, who is apparently a very calm and reasonable person.
  #126  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
She is big, black, scary-looking, and has big lips and frizzy hair. Isn't that a racist caricature? It was when she was depicted as throwing a tantrum.

Regards,
Shodan
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Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin View Post
No. The cartoon I linked is an exaggerated portrait of Serena Williams. It includes her features and is recognizable as her. The cartoon in the OP is a depiction of a racial stereotype. It has discredited stereotyped features and is recognizable as an ignorant portrait of what was once called an African savage.

None of this has anything to do with whether the cartoon depicts her throwing a tantrum. If the caricature I posted showed her in a negative light throwing a tantrum, and the one in the OP showed her standing and was intended to be a positive portrayal, the second one would still be racist.
Honestly, I'm not getting it. The linked caricature being spoken of here as a "non-racist" version does NOT look any different to me, sans the obviously-the-point tantrum being thrown.
  #127  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:29 PM
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Yes, I think this is a perfect explanation of why that caricature feels racist. Is ďlarge lipsĒ a defining feature of Serena? She does not strike me as having unusually large lips for a black woman, no; nor even relative to most white women for that matter. So thatís a caricature of a generic stereotypical black woman, not Serena. The face bears no resemblance at all.

The artist might argue that he exaggrated the mouth because of the ďbaby tantrumĒ aspect, but even if thatís the intent, the effect is a racist stereotype.
Should cartoonists avoid anything associated with what may be taken as stereotypical for fear of offense?
  #128  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:33 PM
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Should cartoonists avoid anything associated with what may be taken as stereotypical for fear of offense?
If they don't want to offend people, then yes, they should pay at least some attention to whether they're creating content that seems likely to generate offense.

What I've gleaned from this thread does not suggest to me that the creator of this work wanted to avoid offending. What publication did this appear in again?
  #129  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:38 PM
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If they don't want to offend people, then yes, they should pay at least some attention to whether they're creating content that seems likely to generate offense.
Yeah, it's a question of what audience reaction you're going for. If you want the reaction to be "ha, look at Serena Williams' silly behavior" without being significantly diluted by "geez, that caricature of Williams looks like a racist stereotype", then it's a good idea to avoid stereotypically racist visual features in your drawing.
  #130  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:41 PM
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I certainly agree that nobody who is for some reason defending this obviously racist caricature will change their stated opinions due to argument on some dumb message board.

Except for Delayed Reflex, who is apparently a very calm and reasonable person.
In keeping with my previous statement, I am not going to continue with this discussion unless someone offers a *new* argument as to why the cartoon may be described as racist. And why should I, when lots of people here are exactly as you say, who will never be convinced of anything, or if they are, will never admit it publicly. I wish there were more like me here who do that.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-12-2018 at 06:45 PM.
  #131  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:43 PM
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I wish there were more like me here who do that.
  #132  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:44 PM
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Is it possible to caricature a black person without it being racist?

Regards,
Shodan
I'm not sure whether you're being serious or sarcastic. In case it's the former...Of course it is. Witness the overwhelming majority of political cartoons of Barack Obama during his presidency. Caricature exaggerates a subject's most distinctive features. In Obama, that meant his ears. I guess if one sees all Black subjects as having the Jim Crow era stereotype of wide lips, enormous mouths, etc. regardless of the individual, than it'd probably be tough to discern racism in the Australian cartoon.

The Australian cartoon exaggerates only two of Williams' physical features: her lips and her hair, neither of which is her most distinctive feature. And her lips are enormously exaggerated, much like the images in Jim Crow era cartoons. Compare it to this caricature of Williams, where her facial shape and musculature are exaggerated.
  #133  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:50 PM
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The real woman does in fact have large lips. Like Obama had big ears or Nixon heavy jowls.
Itís more offensive to try and avoid drawing them, since you seem to be suggesting that there is something wrong with having big lips.
Actually, she does not, and they're certainly not her most distinctive feature. Her facial shape and musculature are much more distinctive. And the Australian cartoon enormously exaggerates them, the way Jim Crow era cartoons did. The only way you know it's supposed to be Williams is the distinctive outfit. Here again is the link I posted in my reply to Shodan. The difference between this cartoon and the Australian one is striking.
  #134  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:05 PM
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Except multiple examples of non-racist negative caricatures have been offered in this thread. Did you miss them? I'll quote the posts for you:
Which of those is negative?
  #135  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:05 PM
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Should cartoonists avoid anything associated with what may be taken as stereotypical for fear of offense?
I suppose if someone really did have the stereotypical features, then the cartoonist would be on dangerous ground with a caricature. But if heís not a good enough artist to express himself without portraying a racist stereotype, the world does not owe him a solution to that problem.

And again, thatís not applicable here. Serenaís defining features are not stereotypical.
  #136  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:11 PM
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Is it possible to draw a caricature of a woman with Williams' features that isn't racist? If so, how?
Hereís how I answered when you asked that same question in the US Open thread:

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No. You cannot draw caricatures of nonwhite people without it coming across very badly. Which is actually, surprise surprise, a double standard I agree with. Although maybe we should dispense with the double standard by creating a new social norm that caricature is generally seen as bad form, even with white people as subjects.

Itís an appealing art form in some ways, and one that tells us something about human perception and psychology. But on the whole, itís just not worth it.
  #137  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin View Post
This is a caricature of Serena Williams that was posted earlier in the thread both by me and by Buck Godot. It is not racist. The caricature posted in the OP is racist. There is no reason that the non-racist version could not be depicted crying, screaming and jumping up and down to make the point of the original cartoon without being racist.

Is there a part of this position that you do not agree with?
That still looks racist (or at least, racially cringey) to me.

OTOH I donít think the Tyron Woodley test is reasonable. I donít believe black people are necessarily the arbiters of whatís racist, any more than women are the arbiters of whatís sexist (many of the latter, for instance, are getting it wrong as concerns the U.S. Open chair umpire). Itís sometimes easier to see these things clearly from outside the group most affected.
  #138  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
]This[/URL] one of the Stones is fucking fantastic and I hope I can find a print of it somewhere.
I've got a Voodoo Lounge tour program. I'll see if it's in there. Make you #1 deal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
Take out the frizzy pony tail, and the context, and can anyone tell me how I should know its Serena Williams as opposed to Oprah Winfrey, Michele Obama, or Aretha Franklin.
The Tennis Racquet.
  #139  
Old 09-12-2018, 08:11 PM
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nm. hold on. hit post by mistake...

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-12-2018 at 08:11 PM.
  #140  
Old 09-12-2018, 08:25 PM
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Something occurred to me while looking at photos of Serena:

Serena Williams

Serena Williams shouting

The cartoon again

It is undeniable that her lips as drawn in the cartoon are larger than they are in real life when she isn't shouting. I don't think the lips as drawn in the cartoon are exaggerated to a racist extent when compared with the first image. However, if it happened that the artist drew her accurately while shouting and thought, no, that's not racist or offensive enough, let me make her lips bigger, than that would certainly be evidence of racism. As I can't know that, I draw no inferences from these pictures.
  #141  
Old 09-12-2018, 09:32 PM
Sloe Moe Sloe Moe is offline
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What looks like thick lower lips is actually the tongue. It's not racist, just unflattering.
  #142  
Old 09-12-2018, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sloe Moe View Post
What looks like thick lower lips is actually the tongue. It's not racist, just unflattering.
I'm having a Poe's Law moment. Are you being serious?

Argue that you think a caricature of thick lips is okay if you must, but please don't try to convince me that those lips are not a caricature outside the range of normal human lips. Yes, I can see the commensurately outsized tongue. The lips are the outsized parts above and below it.

And, once again, Serena Williams does not have thick lips.

Last edited by Riemann; 09-12-2018 at 10:02 PM.
  #143  
Old 09-12-2018, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
It is undeniable that her lips as drawn in the cartoon are larger than they are in real life when she isn't shouting. I don't think the lips as drawn in the cartoon are exaggerated to a racist extent when compared with the first image.
Her face looks nothing like that face, shouting or not shouting. Thatís a telling signal the artist doesnít see her individuality and instead is using a stereotyped-laden approximation. Hunting around for a photo where her lips happen to look prominent, just to argue that the drawing doesnít exaggerate them too much, doesnít address the underlying problem here.
  #144  
Old 09-12-2018, 10:21 PM
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The only way that cartoon could look more racist is if she had a bone in her nose. She looks like an enraged cannibal in a Warner Brothers cartoon after Bugs Bunny has escaped the giant pot.
  #145  
Old 09-12-2018, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin View Post
Yes, the cartoon is absolutely racist, and depicts Serena in an ugly, stereotypical way. For contrast, here is another cartoon depicting the same event that shows her accurately, but not as a racist stereotype.
While this is admittedly a sidetrack from the original discussion, just to address the contrast being described by the cartoon linked here: I'm 32 and I can definitely remember as a kid people talking about John McEnroe like he was totally insane. "Outspoken" wasn't the word that was used, it was more like "a fucking asshole."
  #146  
Old 09-12-2018, 10:26 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is online now
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Except multiple examples of non-racist negative caricatures have been offered in this thread. Did you miss them? I'll quote the posts for you:
I have now looked at the various cartoons linked in different peopleís posts, and I thought they were all pretty racially questionable, with the exception of the Michelle Obama ďfat policeĒ one (although I hate the politics of that one). Maybe Michelle has less stereotypically ďAfricanĒ features compared to Serena?
  #147  
Old 09-12-2018, 11:04 PM
Sloe Moe Sloe Moe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
I'm having a Poe's Law moment. Are you being serious?

Argue that you think a caricature of thick lips is okay if you must, but please don't try to convince me that those lips are not a caricature outside the range of normal human lips. Yes, I can see the commensurately outsized tongue. The lips are the outsized parts above and below it.

And, once again, Serena Williams does not have thick lips.
Well neither does Aretha Frankin, at least not as much as this drawing by Big Mike Roate. How come there's no fuzz about it? Reason: There's hardly any call to dislike the late singer, or to caricature her in a bad way.
  #148  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:00 AM
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Ok...caveats.

1) I am Australian and have over the years seen much of Mark Knight's work. He can be brutal in his lampooning of famous figures, particularly political ones but anyone famous can expect the same sort of treatment. See here

2) Racism in America is different to that in Australia. Whilst it is as deeply entrenched and malign as the US, it doesn't permeate the political sphere as much as it does over the big ditch. We don't have the slavery narrative (actually debatable, but still) or the institutionalized segregation policies for example, but while we are a deeply racist nation, it's different to the US in many ephemeral ways.

That being said, if I hadn't heard opinions to the contrary, both here and via the media, I would have said that the cartoon was NOT racist. It was decidedly unflattering, which really is a cartoonists job, but given that Serena herself was behaving in a most unflattering way during the Open, I would have said "fair game".

HOWEVER, reading responses here, I am prepared to revisit my opinion. I'll get back to you later.
  #149  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:25 AM
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...not so long ago Taika Waititi, the director of Thor Ragnorok called New Zealand "racist as fuck."

This caused a bit of a comotion down under. We have our own mild version of the "right-wing outrage machine" here, and Taika pushed all of the right buttons and the outrage machine came back with all the expected responses.

But Taika was right. New Zealand is racist as fuck. I'm brown. And I've lived it.

But we are working on it. Things are better than they were before. Maori and the Crown are viewed as partners, sealed with a treaty that was signed over a hundred years ago and is enshrined as our founding document. We have a well-established grievance process for Treaty of Waitangi claims. Maori are guaranteed parliamentary representation. Te reo (the Maori language) is embraced by many, used everywhere from greetings (Kia ora!) to "regards" (Ngā mihi).

Australia, like New Zealand, is racist as fuck.

Australia, unlike New Zealand, cannot acknowledge this.

And because they cannot acknowledge this: they cannot begin the process to start dealing with this.

The treatment of Indigenous Australians in Australia is appalling. They only got the right to vote in 1965. Indigenous Australians the most incarcerated people on Earth. Every metric, from healthcare to education, show just how badly Indigenous Australians are treated.

But this is an issue that Australia won't deal with. They throw band-aids at the problem. They ignore it. They say its all their own fault.

Then we have the asylum seekers. And how Australia deals with asylum seekers (mostly coming in by boat) is an inspiration to people like Stephen Miller and other white supremacists. Its disgusting. Appalling. An international disgrace.

And Australians by and large don't really care. Not enough to make a difference anyway. The boats stopped. Thats all that really matters, doesn't it?

In New Zealand we proudly sing the national anthem in both a Maori version as well as the English version. Right now in Australia a 9 year old girl, who refuses to stand for the national anthem because "she believed it was disrespectful to Indigenous Australians", is being attacked not only by the right-wing-media machine, but also by State Senators, like the racist-as-fuck-Pauline-Hanson.

Its a country that has never had to deal with its racist history. Its a country that tries to pretend that it doesn't exist.

Most Americans know Rupert Murdoch through his association with Fox News. But Murdoch is Australian by birth. And Murdoch, through News Corp Australia, hold a substantial media empire in Australia.

And if you know anything about Fox News, then you can get an idea of the quality of journalism that you will get from a News Corp branded media outlet.

And the Herald Sun, the newspaper that published the Serena Cartoon, is a News Corp paper.

The Herald Sun regularly publishes articles like this. Or this. They specialise in demonizing the marginalised. They used their leverage as a news organization to post a series of attacks on blogger Yassmin Abdel-Magied which among many other things eventually lead her to leave the country.

The Herald Sun is a racist-as-fuck newspaper that regularly publishes racist-as-fuck articles that panders to its racist-as-fuck target market.

Which brings us to this cartoon.

Do I think Mark Knight intentionally drew a racist cartoon?

No I don't.

He drew what he sees. And what he sees is the product of living in a racist-as-fuck society. This is how he sees Serena. He sees her as a grotesque creature, so that is what he drew. He exaggerates the features that he does because he lives in a bubble and nobody has ever told him before how how racist this sort of portrayal actually is. Its rare to be able to "penetrate the bubble". But social media makes it easier now.

Something similar happened a few years ago (it was discussed here) when Harry Connick Jnr was a judge on "Hey Hey its Saturday" and they had a minstrel performance. (Note my sound isn't going on my computer, so I hope the audio for the video is the correct one, if it isn't, my apologies)

That performance was pretty fucking racist. Yet many Australians and many on these boards defended it. "Australians don't know about minstrels. So its not racist!" But that defense didn't cut it back then (IMHO) and that defense doesn't cut it here now.

I'll mostly give Knight a pass. I've looked at his old cartoons, and he specialises in grotesque caricatures. IMHO the cartoon is racist as fuck. But that wasn't Knights intent. I don't feel sorry for him though. The blow-back he got was to be expected and entirely fair. He is learning a harsh fucking lesson: but its a lesson that most Australians need to learn as well.

I don't give a pass to the Herald Sun though. They are scum, run by scum, and they are capitalizing on this as one would expect. Australia has a problem with racism. I'm glad this went viral. I'm glad at the international outrage. Because many Australians don't think there is a problem. So we need to shine the spotlight.
  #150  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:57 AM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Caricature is supposed to be unattractive, and it is supposed to make fun of the person for being who they are, or at least who they became at their embarrassing public moment. That is the entire goddamn point. Falsely exaggerating the person's real features is how it is RESPECTFULLY done. Disrespectful and racist caricatures add in lies. No lies have been added here. Do we want to pretend that this person has skinny lips and a stick shape? THAT would be lying, not just exaggerating.
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