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Old 09-14-2018, 01:13 PM
Mumberthax Mumberthax is offline
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Gender Abolition

I've read some opinion pieces from the radfem community regarding gender abolition. All gender roles abolished. Unisex everything. The whole 'good girls' and 'real men' crapola goes into the dustbin of history, never to return. We all play by the same cultural rules, regardless of our biological sex.

Now that gender is off the table, what happens? Would this lead to the collapse of patriarchal rule, thus leading to women's liberation? Would gender dysphoria still exist? Would we still have gendered pronouns? How about separate bathrooms? Would it be like Starship Troopers, or just a unisex version of what we already have today?

In case you're wondering, I really am asking. I agree that gender roles are bullshit, designed by the patriarchy to keep women oppressed. I just want to know what you all think about gender abolition and its consequences.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:15 PM
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Just today I refused to give up my seat on the Metro to a woman, because I wouldn't have done it if it was a man.

Does that help or hurt whatever you are talking about?
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:19 PM
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I just want to know what you all think about gender abolition and its consequences.
It's impossible because it denies reality. Anything that denies reality is not sustainable.

As soon as genders are abolished, let me know so that I can get pregnant with the ovaries and uterus that I...will suddenly receive? How will that work?
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:22 PM
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Just today I refused to give up my seat on the Metro to a woman, because I wouldn't have done it if it was a man.

Does that help or hurt whatever you are talking about?
That's one example. Treat men and women the same way.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:24 PM
Mumberthax Mumberthax is offline
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It's impossible because it denies reality. Anything that denies reality is not sustainable.

As soon as genders are abolished, let me know so that I can get pregnant with the ovaries and uterus that I...will suddenly receive? How will that work?
That's biological sex, not gender. Gender is masculine and feminine. Sex is male and female.
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Last edited by Mumberthax; 09-14-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:25 PM
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That's biological sex, not gender. Gender is masculine and feminine. Sex is male and female.

H'rm...I guess I should have specified 'gender roles'. In other words, there'd be no more taboos about men being feminine or women being masculine. What's good for his goose is good for her gander.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:32 PM
Malleus, Incus, Stapes! Malleus, Incus, Stapes! is offline
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Originally Posted by Mumberthax View Post
I've read some opinion pieces from the radfem community regarding gender abolition. All gender roles abolished. Unisex everything. The whole 'good girls' and 'real men' crapola goes into the dustbin of history, never to return. We all play by the same cultural rules, regardless of our biological sex.

Now that gender is off the table, what happens? Would this lead to the collapse of patriarchal rule, thus leading to women's liberation? Would gender dysphoria still exist? Would we still have gendered pronouns? How about separate bathrooms? Would it be like Starship Troopers, or just a unisex version of what we already have today?

In case you're wondering, I really am asking. I agree that gender roles are bullshit, designed by the patriarchy to keep women oppressed. I just want to know what you all think about gender abolition and its consequences.
Just to clarify, how does your scenario happen? "Human nature magically gets altered so that we don't care about sex/gender?" "Society/history is magically altered so that we've always been genderless, how does human nature take it from there?" Or is it that people-as-we-know-them just decide to go, "You know what? Let's abolish gender"? Because if it's the third one, it's not going to work. We're too biologically primed to be aware of sex to not develop gender. And if it's one of the former two, we need to know which aspect of reality has been altered to make informed comments.

ETA: just saw your post about it being gender roles. I still hold that it is human nature to divide ourselves into Us and Them, and as long as we're aware of males and females, we're going to end up with division and gender roles.

Last edited by Malleus, Incus, Stapes!; 09-14-2018 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mumberthax View Post
I've read some opinion pieces from the radfem community regarding gender abolition. All gender roles abolished. Unisex everything. The whole 'good girls' and 'real men' crapola goes into the dustbin of history, never to return. We all play by the same cultural rules, regardless of our biological sex.

Now that gender is off the table, what happens? Would this lead to the collapse of patriarchal rule, thus leading to women's liberation? Would gender dysphoria still exist? Would we still have gendered pronouns? How about separate bathrooms? Would it be like Starship Troopers, or just a unisex version of what we already have today?

In case you're wondering, I really am asking. I agree that gender roles are bullshit, designed by the patriarchy to keep women oppressed. I just want to know what you all think about gender abolition and its consequences.
I'm not sure what it would hurt to be honest.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:35 PM
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I've read some opinion pieces from the radfem community regarding gender abolition.
Your use of the term "redfem community" makes me want to read these opinion pieces for myself. Got any links?
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:36 PM
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Inspired by the most logical race in the galaxy, the Vulcans, breeding will be permitted once every seven years. For many of you, this will mean much less breeding. For me, much, much, more!
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:45 PM
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How about a definition before this inevitably veers into biology? Sex is your block and tackle. Gender is how society treats you.

Sex is your wee wee standing up and shooting man cream all over the place. Gender is 'Women should be teachers and nurses. Men should be miners and engineers. Boys don't cry. Girls wear dresses and v-necks. etc. etc.'

Last edited by senoy; 09-14-2018 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:03 PM
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Sex is your wee wee standing up and shooting man cream all over the place. Gender is 'Women should be teachers and nurses. Men should be miners and engineers. Boys don't cry. Girls wear dresses and v-necks. etc. etc.'
Technically, what you're calling gender is the narrower category of gender roles. There's also gender identity, which is not necessarily the same thing as conformity to societal gender roles.

For example, a woman can identify as female while nonetheless adopting male gender roles such as being a miner, not wearing dresses, etc. Or a man can identify as male while nonetheless liking to wear dresses, not refusing to cry, etc.

So abolishing gender roles, even if that were at all a realistic prospect, would still not be the same thing as abolishing gender. People could and probably mostly still would have an instinctive perception of themselves as "male" or "female" even if it didn't make any practical difference in most of their lives.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-14-2018 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:17 PM
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Some people have the idea that gender neutrality means that we don't allow boys to play with cars and we don't allow girls to play with dolls. No, it means the opposite. We allow girls to play with both dolls and cars, and we allow boys to play with both cars and dolls. And we don't freak the fuck out if a boy puts on a pink shirt with sparkles or pretends to take care of a baby doll.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:19 PM
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Your use of the term "redfem community" makes me want to read these opinion pieces for myself. Got any links?
Or we could save even more time in dealing with this thread. To quote a favorite movie of mine, "Can we just skip the vibe and go straight to us laughing about this?"
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:28 PM
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And we don't freak the fuck out if a boy puts on a pink shirt with sparkles or pretends to take care of a baby doll.
Are you serious with this? Do you know how hard it is to clean up stray sparkles that fall off of a shirt?

Come on, man.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:37 PM
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Your use of the term "redfem community" makes me want to read these opinion pieces for myself. Got any links?
You don't want to. The OP is referring to TERFS--transgender-exclusionary radical feminists. They believe trans women are yet another patriarchal plot to oppress and rape women, and that trans men are homophobic lesbians.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:41 PM
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You don't want to. The OP is referring to TERFS--transgender-exclusionary radical feminists. They believe trans women are yet another patriarchal plot to oppress and rape women, and that trans men are homophobic lesbians.
Not a large group, I take it?
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:45 PM
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What is a "homophobic lesbian"? How can that even be a thing?
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:54 PM
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I really think it needs to be clarified what kind of gender we're eliminating here.

Women are suddenly allowed to wear pants and the color blue?

Everyone suddenly accepts that sex has no correlation with preference, intelligence, or ability, excepting in cases where it physically does (like sperm donor)?

Everyone suddenly stops being able to tell what gender other people are?

Everyone's genitalia and other sexual characteristics disappear?

Because when we start talking about there not being separate bathrooms, we're veering towards the latter options.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:03 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
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That's biological sex, not gender. Gender is masculine and feminine. Sex is male and female.
It seems to me that certain traits that we would call masculine or feminine are hard-wired into our biology as males and females. Sure, some things are cultural or societal, but I think enough of it is biological that true gender abolition would be impossible.

I find it hard to imagine a world in which "father" and "mother" are strictly biological designations with completely interchangeable roles.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:12 PM
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It seems to me that certain traits that we would call masculine or feminine are hard-wired into our biology as males and females. Sure, some things are cultural or societal, but I think enough of it is biological that true gender abolition would be impossible.
Doubtless, but the problem is that we live in such a culturally gendered society that there's hardly any reliable way of identifying which traits are truly "hard-wired into our biology" rather than being culturally determined. We can come up with fabricated evo-psych speculations linking practically any "masculine" or "feminine" trait with a postulated biological cause, but that isn't the same as being able to determine the existence of such causes scientifically.

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Because when we start talking about there not being separate bathrooms, we're veering towards the latter options.
I must be misunderstanding you. What is there about men and women using the same bathroom that would make gender identity, much less physical genitalia, disappear?
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:15 PM
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Not a large group, I take it?
WAS THAT A FAT JOKE?!?!?!



I expect not, just making sure.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:24 PM
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Because when we start talking about there not being separate bathrooms, we're veering towards the latter options.
Did you know that at my house, we don't have separate bathrooms for men and women? We have two bathrooms, but they are open to anyone without regard for gender. It's a bold political statement, I know.

Hmmm. Funny thing. I remember growing up that this was the policy in my parent's home, and my grandma's home, and my uncle's home. I guess our family has always been on the forefront of the assault on gender.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:25 PM
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How were you able to tell the men from the women then? Must have been anarchy.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:43 PM
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Did you know that at my house, we don't have separate bathrooms for men and women? We have two bathrooms, but they are open to anyone without regard for gender. It's a bold political statement, I know.

Hmmm. Funny thing. I remember growing up that this was the policy in my parent's home, and my grandma's home, and my uncle's home. I guess our family has always been on the forefront of the assault on gender.
I'm not a bathroom nazi by any means, but I don't think it's fair to compare a public restroom setting to a restroom in a private residence where access is strictly controlled, and 99-100% of the people using the restroom are either close family relations or vetted and trusted guests.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:46 PM
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I'm not a bathroom nazi by any means, but I don't think it's fair to compare a public restroom setting to a restroom in a private residence where access is strictly controlled, and 99-100% of the people using the restroom are either close family relations or vetted and trusted guests.
You'd rather watch a close family member pee instead of a total stranger who you will probably never meet again?
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:47 PM
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You'd rather watch a close family member pee instead of a total stranger who you will probably never meet again?
Truth be told, I'd rather not watch anyone pee. Is it normal for you to stare at people while they pee? I didn't know that was a thing.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:58 PM
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Truth be told, I'd rather not watch anyone pee. Is it normal for you to stare at people while they pee? I didn't know that was a thing.
It's not...which is why I don't give a damn about who is in the same bathroom I'm using.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 09-14-2018 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:02 PM
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Doubtless, but the problem is that we live in such a culturally gendered society that there's hardly any reliable way of identifying which traits are truly "hard-wired into our biology" rather than being culturally determined. We can come up with fabricated evo-psych speculations linking practically any "masculine" or "feminine" trait with a postulated biological cause, but that isn't the same as being able to determine the existence of such causes scientifically.
Swedish studies have established that there are differences even in newborns. We can argue about what those differences are, but https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=j.jmhg is quite clear. I'm trying to find another study from Sweden that specifically studied infant eye focus activity that clearly showed males lingering on mechanisms and females lingering on faces, but my google fu isn't succeeding. Here's another study outlining differences, but not the one I wanted; https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...04395999002584.

...Apparently it was norwegian? https://youtu.be/cVaTc15plVs?t=1345 alas I can't site the study directly.

All of these study newborns, without time to have been socialized one way or another. Of particular interest and unbeknownst to me before searching was the difference in pain responses between males and females being present in newborns.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:35 PM
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Swedish studies have established that there are differences even in newborns. We can argue about what those differences are, but https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=j.jmhg is quite clear.
I acknowledged in the first word of my post that you quoted that there are doubtless such biological differences. The point, which you likewise acknowledge, is that in a culturally gendered society we have no good way of separating the biological differences from the cultural ones to any really meaningful extent.

Yes, there are studies on (small numbers of) newborns that show sex-linked differences in, e.g., neonatal "looking time" at faces versus mobiles (is this the one you were searching for?). But the actual documented differences are not as categorical as water-cooler recaps of the research tend to suggest:
Quote:
Number (and percent) of neonates falling into each perference category

Face Preference
Males (n=44) 11 (25.0%); Females (n=58) 21 (36.2%)

Mobile Preference
19 (43.2%); 10 (17.2%)

No Preference
14 (31.8%); 27 (46.6%)
When you say "11 of 44 male neonates preferred looking at the face, 19 at the mobile, and 14 showed no preference, while 21 of 58 female neonates preferred looking at the face, 10 at the mobile, and 27 showed no preference", it really sounds a lot less categorically gender-essentialist than "clearly showed males lingering on mechanisms and females lingering on faces", doesn't it?

More importantly, there's no way to convincingly link these sex-linked differences in purely biological, pre-social neonatal behavior to other sorts of gender differences in a world so thoroughly permeated by cultural gender expectations. Trying to jump from "slightly under half of male infants prefer the mobile while slightly under half of female infants prefer the face" to sociological conclusions like, say, "and that's why engineers are mostly men" is just unsupported evo-psych-type speculation in a slightly different guise.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:02 PM
etasyde etasyde is offline
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When you say "11 of 44 male neonates preferred looking at the face, 19 at the mobile, and 14 showed no preference, while 21 of 58 female neonates preferred looking at the face, 10 at the mobile, and 27 showed no preference", it really sounds a lot less categorically gender-essentialist than "clearly showed males lingering on mechanisms and females lingering on faces", doesn't it?
When you're actually looking for real differences between populations, you most decidedly are not looking for perfect divisions between them. What you're looking for is the mean and the standard deviations. In short, how do they behave on average. While I'd love for a better study with a larger sample size, human studies especially on newborns aren't exactly easy to organize. We have the data we have, and they show a statistically significant difference in preference (Also, that members of the population vary across the spectrum, but no one should be surprised by this). Like all statistics relevant to a population at large, what matters is where the mean lies. There is a difference between the females and males that we can trace all the way to newborns. That eliminates the possibility that all gender differences can be chocked up to cultural indoctrination and lends significant credence to the body of thinking that suggests men are more technical and women more social.

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More importantly, there's no way to convincingly link these sex-linked differences in purely biological, pre-social neonatal behavior to other sorts of gender differences in a world so thoroughly permeated by cultural gender expectations.
Actually, we've established that there are differences between genders that manifest within a day of birth that lean in the same direction we see populations leaning towards as adults. You'd have to demonstrate some significant mechanism that eliminates this trend to justify culture having reintroduced or reinforcing it.

Quote:
Trying to jump from "slightly under half of male infants prefer the mobile while slightly under half of female infants prefer the face" to sociological conclusions like, say, "and that's why engineers are mostly men" is just unsupported evo-psych-type speculation in a slightly different guise.
Every reputable study done shows the same gender preferences at all ages. These trends don't go away and then re-manifest only when exposed to specific cultural triggers, they just get bigger in all cultures studied as age increases. "Cultural indoctrination" seems to be almost a non-factor.

And that's before you mention the effects of more gender neutral cultures (http://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equa...48156-Feb2018/). As cultural egalitarianism increases, the divergence between male and female career preference increases. If anything, it would appear that traditional culture has a normalizing effect on career choice between genders, not the opposite.

Last edited by etasyde; 09-14-2018 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:10 PM
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I'm not a bathroom nazi by any means, but I don't think it's fair to compare a public restroom setting to a restroom in a private residence where access is strictly controlled, and 99-100% of the people using the restroom are either close family relations or vetted and trusted guests.
Dude. It's already illegal to rape people in public bathrooms. We already have a law against it.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:13 PM
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Dude. It's already illegal to rape people in public bathrooms. We already have a law against it.
Not sure what rape has to do with anything. I'm just talking about people's comfort level and expectations of privacy, and how those can differ depending on where you are (residential or public bathroom). I just think there is a different dynamic at play.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:20 PM
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Not sure what rape has to do with anything. I'm just talking about people's comfort level and expectations of privacy, and how those can differ depending on where you are (residential or public bathroom). I just think there is a different dynamic at play.
To be fair, I think you're both missing the point.

People are discomforted by cross gendered bathrooms because we're raised to think it's wrong.

People are raised to think it's wrong because we inherited a lot of scruples from our more religious forebearers, and the idea of a boy and a girl in close proximity with their privies off was enough to get everybody's privies in a knot. It's neither effective against nor implemented to prevent rape. More likely it was to stop Jim from sneaking a peak at Jane and learning what her naughty bits look like before they're married. You'll note, Roman public bathrooms weren't gender segregated, and so far as I can find the earliest segregated bathroom dates back only to the 1780's, well within the "oh deary, we surely mustn't let Jim get curious" timeframe.

Presumably, that discomfort wouldn't exist if we didn't learn that bathrooms are supposed to be segregated and that proximity to the opposite gender is a significant danger. After all, Roman bathrooms didn't even bother with stalls.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:22 PM
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When you're actually looking for real differences between populations, you most decidedly are not looking for perfect divisions between them. What you're looking for is the mean and the standard deviations. In short, how do they behave on average.
Sure. But the average differences actually found here are substantially smaller than casual descriptions of the research tend to suggest.

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Originally Posted by etasyde
There is a difference between the females and males that we can trace all the way to newborns. That eliminates the possibility that all gender differences can be chocked up to cultural indoctrination
But AFAICT nobody here is trying to argue for that possibility: not even, AFAICT, the folks referenced without cite in the OP who allegedly advocate eliminating all social acknowledgement of gender differences.

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Originally Posted by etasyde
and lends significant credence to the body of thinking that suggests men are more technical and women more social.
That's where you make the leap into speculation. Assuming that these neonatal looking preferences are causally related to, and significantly determinative of, the complex behaviors that we call "being more technical" and "being more social" is not supported by the evidence.

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Originally Posted by etasyde
Actually, we've established that there are differences between genders that manifest within a day of birth
Again, nobody's disputing that.

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Originally Posted by etasyde
that lean in the same direction we see populations leaning towards as adults.
"Lean in the same direction", like "lends significant credence", is speculative-analogy talk rather than scientific deduction.

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Originally Posted by etasyde
You'd have to demonstrate some significant mechanism that eliminates this trend to justify culture having reintroduced or reinforcing it.
The problem is that you're making up the conclusion that the behaviors you're talking about here actually constitute a single causally connected "trend".

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Originally Posted by etasyde
And that's before you mention the effects of more gender neutral cultures (http://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equa...48156-Feb2018/). As cultural egalitarianism increases, the divergence between male and female career preference increases. If anything, it would appear that traditional culture has a normalizing effect on career choice between genders, not the opposite.
The conclusion-jumping is reaching catastrophic levels here. You are cherry-picking a few behavior patterns in a few closely related countries out of a massively complex entanglement of historically gendered expectations and roles, and declaring that you can identify them as primarily biological in origin. This is not persuasive except to people who already believe the views you're arguing for.

Mind you, again, nobody here is claiming that biology can't be or isn't significantly determinative of gender differences in adult behavior patterns. Just that actually demonstrating the extent to which biology is or isn't determinative is a lot more difficult than you realize.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-14-2018 at 05:23 PM.
  #36  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:22 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Not sure what rape has to do with anything. I'm just talking about people's comfort level and expectations of privacy, and how those can differ depending on where you are (residential or public bathroom). I just think there is a different dynamic at play.
This. The idea that people will become completely comfortable with co-ed casual nudity is a distinct and extremely separate concept from the idea that mothers might go to work while the fathers stay home and do the housework. Both events could occur, but I really don't see how one would drive the other. So what kind of "gender" are we talking about losing here?
  #37  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:27 PM
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Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is offline
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Y'all realize most public restrooms have stalls and/or locking doors. Nobody need be stared at. If you are pee-ing out in the open I am afraid you are asking to be looked at. IMHO.

ETA I know men's rooms have urinals, but females don't use them, anyway.

P.S. I have a small problem with people hearing me pee, but that's another issue.

Last edited by Beckdawrek; 09-14-2018 at 05:31 PM.
  #38  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
Not sure what rape has to do with anything. I'm just talking about people's comfort level and expectations of privacy, and how those can differ depending on where you are (residential or public bathroom). I just think there is a different dynamic at play.
The thing is, comfort or discomfort isn't a thing on its own. There has to be some underlying reason why people feel this comfort or discomfort.

We already accept the difference between being alone in a bathroom and restrooms having multiple people in stalls that don't completely hide you from the other person. We already put up with the risk that some gay person may leer at us.

So what is different when you have unisex restrooms? What is the additional fear that makes people more uncomfortable in that situation? Whatever it is, can we get over it?

In the trans restroom debate, the argument is always about people of the opposite gender harassing, molesting, or raping people. That is what they flat out say. So it sure seems that the discomfort of having someone of the "wrong" gender in the bathroom with you is due to the fear of sexual crimes.

I for one really don't care. But I also think we should stop with these cheap stalls and actually put up good dividers. If they need air flow, built it in the traditional way with vents and such, not huge open space that people can peer in and see.

That would, in my opinion, make them more like home bathrooms. The only difference is that the sinks are outside the toilet room.
  #39  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:33 PM
Malleus, Incus, Stapes! Malleus, Incus, Stapes! is offline
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Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
Y'all realize most public restrooms have stalls and/or locking doors. Nobody need be stared at. If you are pee-ing out in the open I am afraid you are asking to be looked at. IMHO.

ETA I know men's rooms have urinals, but females don't use them, anyway.
But men are using them, therefore male restrooms have people peeing out in the open.
  #40  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:35 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
Y'all realize most public restrooms have stalls and/or locking doors. Nobody need be stared at. If you are pee-ing out in the open I am afraid you are asking to be looked at. IMHO.

ETA I know men's rooms have urinals, but females don't use them, anyway.

P.S. I have a small problem with people hearing me pee, but that's another issue.
The OP referenced Starship Troopers; I assume they were talking about the co-ed shower scene. The notion that this gender erasure might somehow make casual coed nudity acceptable is definitely on the table.
  #41  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:43 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
The OP referenced Starship Troopers; I assume they were talking about the co-ed shower scene. The notion that this gender erasure might somehow make casual coed nudity acceptable is definitely on the table.
An interesting question no doubt.

I just don't buy it. The OP made it clear that biology remains in effect. As long as male and female are biologically distinct, there will be a *something* that makes gender erasure, and therefore, "casual coed nudity" impossible.

I am not saying that humans can't behave while in the presence of a naked person of the opposite sex, of course they can and should. But that doesn't mean everyone can ever be 100% comfortable with it.

Respect and decency is one thing, being nonchalant is another.
  #42  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:44 PM
etasyde etasyde is offline
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
The OP referenced Starship Troopers; I assume they were talking about the co-ed shower scene. The notion that this gender erasure might somehow make casual coed nudity acceptable is definitely on the table.
Casual co-ed nudity is only a "problem" in cultures where nudity is looked upon negatively. It is definitely learned behavior, if you've ever raised a significant number of boys (who will gleefully streak until you socialize them out of it). Admittedly, most cultures nowadays have strong provisions against it, but that certainly wasn't true when you examine the now extinct pagan cultures of Europe or indeed any "primitive" society. I mean, have you forgotten all that time you spent as a kid trying to find that national geographic cover with all the tribal ladies with large... grass skirts?


Now, I don't think that gender erasure will lead to the shower scene so to speak, because the idea of "privacy" which is relatively new in history is so ingrained on us. Our environment prettymuch maximizes privacy and our culture reinforces it. Hell, it's illegal to buck the trend.

But nudists do it without much issue, and really, if you and a few good friends go to a nude beach the awkwardness of it goes away within minutes. I wouldn't know from experience of course... I'm too busy browsing the library for my favorite magazines
  #43  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:53 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
Casual co-ed nudity is only a "problem" in cultures where nudity is looked upon negatively. It is definitely learned behavior, if you've ever raised a significant number of boys (who will gleefully streak until you socialize them out of it)
I would quibble with this. Of course casual nudity won't be a "problem" among people who enjoy looking and to be looked at (i.e nudists, pagan societies). But the bottom line is, there are a lot of people who do not want to be seen naked, and not just for fear or prudish reasons either.

And having been a boy myself with a brother, and now raising boys myself, I disagree about them having to be socialized out of casual nudity or streaking. At a certain point you become more self conscious, and while you may not have a problem necessarily being naked with a group of guys, you would be very uncomfortable in the presence of girls. That's normal human development.

One of my sons is 5 and he will run around the house naked without a care in the world, but if we are outside, he's afraid to change his shirt because someone might see him. We haven't done anything to make him feel uncomfortable, and we are actually having to socialize him that it's ok for him to be seen without a shirt.
  #44  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:56 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
Casual co-ed nudity is only a "problem" in cultures where nudity is looked upon negatively. [...]

But nudists do it without much issue, and really, if you and a few good friends go to a nude beach the awkwardness of it goes away within minutes.
Agreed. As another anecdata point, I spent a year in a college dorm with co-ed multi-user bathrooms including what might be called "co-ed optional" group showers. That is, there was one large multi-showerhead shower area, no separate stalls, and people already in the shower could either request "[my gender] only till I get out, please" or say "come on in anyone, I don't care".

Most of us by the end of the first week or so didn't care at all, and AFAIK nobody used the co-ed nudity situation as an opportunity to harass anybody else or even for consensual slippery fun. (Or at least the consensual slippery funsters were very discreet. Hmmm, that does suggest that there could have been harassers as well who were equally discreet. )
  #45  
Old 09-14-2018, 05:58 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
Casual co-ed nudity is only a "problem" in cultures where nudity is looked upon negatively. It is definitely learned behavior, if you've ever raised a significant number of boys (who will gleefully streak until you socialize them out of it). Admittedly, most cultures nowadays have strong provisions against it, but that certainly wasn't true when you examine the now extinct pagan cultures of Europe or indeed any "primitive" society. I mean, have you forgotten all that time you spent as a kid trying to find that national geographic cover with all the tribal ladies with large... grass skirts?


Now, I don't think that gender erasure will lead to the shower scene so to speak, because the idea of "privacy" which is relatively new in history is so ingrained on us. Our environment prettymuch maximizes privacy and our culture reinforces it. Hell, it's illegal to buck the trend.

But nudists do it without much issue, and really, if you and a few good friends go to a nude beach the awkwardness of it goes away within minutes. I wouldn't know from experience of course... I'm too busy browsing the library for my favorite magazines
Sure, the nudity aversion is learned - but it's a completely separate thing from most other kinds of gendered prejudices. Or at least I think is is - I'm still not sure what exactly the OP is proposing will happen.

Escalating the strangeness, the OP mentions losing gendered pronouns. Were we to lose gender awareness I would actually assume the pronouns would revert(?) to their strictly biological meanings; for use of the terms to go away entirely I would assume we'd have to lose our genitalia as well. Or maybe not? Boats don't have genitalia and we still pretend they have gender...

Long and short of it I'm still not sure what's under discussion here, exactly. And there's a part of me that still strongly suspects that the actual discussion here is just an angry response to being told to call somebody who at one point had a penis by female pronouns.
  #46  
Old 09-14-2018, 06:01 PM
etasyde etasyde is offline
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
At a certain point you become more self conscious, and while you may not have a problem necessarily being naked with a group of guys, you would be very uncomfortable in the presence of girls. That's normal human development.
What? I don't generally go to nude beaches with my guy friends... And no, that's not "normal" that's you projecting your cultural biases, which is fine, but you have no idea what "normal" is for humans outside of culture. Your entire life experience presumably shaped by having been raised in a society that inherited a lot of its culture from either Victorian england, the puritans, or the equally sensitive catholics assuming you live anywhere in the West.

You have to look outside your culture.

Quote:
One of my sons is 5 and he will run around the house naked without a care in the world, but if we are outside, he's afraid to change his shirt because someone might see him. We haven't done anything to make him feel uncomfortable, and we are actually having to socialize him that it's ok for him to be seen without a shirt.
You have not consciously done anything, maybe, but you have done plenty to subconsciously socialize him. It's impossible for you not to have, socialization is constant and operates with or without intent. He also receives socialization from his environment and from society at large.

The fact that he lives most of his life segregated from neighbors and individuals he doesn't know is actually very strange. Houses are not natural things after all.
  #47  
Old 09-14-2018, 06:08 PM
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Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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How did this get to naked co-ed showers?

Most public restrooms don't have shower stalls, so you don't have to worry about walking in on a guy showering when you go to McDonalds.

If you're worried that a woman might see a transwoman's penis, she's not going to be using a public urinal in a woman's bathroom, because women's bathrooms typically don't have urinals.

Your solution is to pass a law saying a transwoman has to use the men's bathroom? Why exactly? Who are you protecting?

Yeah, yeah. You're worried that a rapist will put on a dress claim to be transgendered and hang out in the women's bathroom, and there won't be a damn thing we can do about it, thanks Obama.

You wanna know why I don't have gendered bathrooms in my house? It's not because I know for sure that no rapist will visit my house and use the restroom. It's that the restroom is single-use. Someone wants to pee, they go in and close the door and do their business, and they don't have to worry about rapists or Peeping Toms because the door is closed.

The same thing can happen in public restrooms. Close the door, and no one can see you pee. Win-win for everyone, except the flashers and Peeping Toms. Bathroom stalls with doors. They exist in lots of places!
  #48  
Old 09-14-2018, 06:11 PM
j666 j666 is offline
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I'd be happy if we could just come up with a gender neutral third person singular pronoun.
  #49  
Old 09-14-2018, 06:17 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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I'd be happy if we could just come up with a gender neutral third person singular pronoun.
They.

Yep, that puppy's singular now. English FTW!
  #50  
Old 09-14-2018, 06:17 PM
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Beckdawrek Beckdawrek is offline
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Uh, hey you? No gender there.
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