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Old 08-09-2018, 02:47 PM
Enright3 Enright3 is offline
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What's your opinion on hazing?

A high school near where I live recently removed cheerleaders because of a hazing incident.
https://patch.com/georgia/roswell/6-...azing-incident

I don't know to what level the hazing occurred; but it got me to wondering what the general consensus is regarding hazing.

Is it ever possible if it's done the 'right' way? i.e. some type of initiation that isn't unsafe or painful?

What are some examples of acceptable hazing?

I certainly see the benefit of what hazing is supposed to accomplish; in that you feel more like you're part of a distinct group.

I've been part of what I would call hazing to join various groups I'm part of. It wasn't harmful in any way; but mostly just a meeting where we're sworn to secrecy.
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:54 PM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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What's your opinion on hazing?

it's juvenile and dumb.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:01 PM
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I think in general it should be strongly discouraged among teens because they seem to have a hard time distinguishing the line between mild humiliation and real harm.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:03 PM
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Depends. It can be harmless or even beneficial. One fraternity where I went to college had people count the number of spikes on the fence that surrounded the campus, or recite the Greek alphabet before a match burned to your fingers (a friend had problems because he'd break into laughter when the got to pi-rho).

Sometimes it requires people do things like clean the campus or wash the outside of the fraternity house (before powerwashing).

A little more gray was the "Bum's photo," where the pledges dressed up in old and dirty clothing and stood in front of the fraternity house for a photo. As they posed, the sophomores dumped buckets of water on them from the second floor as the picture was taken. One year it came out perfectly: the wave of water was caught as it came down and was about three feet above their head. They always chose a warm day for it, so it was harmless.

But if it involved drinking or physical pain or humiliation, it's completely wrong.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:06 PM
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They are being very vague on what happened with the cheerleaders, but surprisingly often male teens decide that an excellent idea for hazing is shoving something up the victim's ass.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:06 PM
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I think it is an exercise in stupid sadism. I also think that if you knowingly and voluntarily join an organization that practices hazing, then you forfeit the right to bitch and any abuse you endure is only what you signed up for.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
They are being very vague on what happened with the cheerleaders, but surprisingly often male teens decide that an excellent idea for hazing is shoving something up the victim's ass.
From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:
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Centennial student Bradley Scomma says he knows the girls involved.

“I think they should have not gotten kicked off,” Scomma told Channel 2. “They were initiating a new freshman on varsity and they had a sleepover and they pushed a girl into the pool with her clothes on. Apparently they have been doing this for like, a long time to a lot of people, so they kind of got busted.”
If that's true and tells the whole story then... yawn.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:00 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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The 'value' of hazing is that it allows new recruits to feel like they paid something unique to be part of the group, gives them something in common with the group and sets them apart from 'normals'. It's a cohesiveness exercise.

That's the idea, anyway. The problem is that hazing is by definition a form of harassment, and it swings open the door wide for sadists to twist it into something awful for their own benefit. And whatever awfulness they instigate is then perpetuated forever, because the people who endured it can only justify the fact they went through it by defining it as normal, which means they have to do it too, to anyone else coming in. Which means you send people on snipe hunts, or panty raids, or push them into pools, or shove things up their butts, or have them kill a man, just because it's "the way it's done".

Personally I think there have to be better ways to promote feelings of exclusivity. Perhaps little badges?
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:13 PM
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I think hazing is evil when it crosses the line into pain or humiliation. I've seen examples* of it that I was happy to miss out on although they were essentially harmless.

The ship that I sailed on several years ago still does a line-crossing ceremony when they cross the equator. They're a bit secretive about the details, but I get the impression it's rather like an amateur talent show for the first-time crossers. I don't think they'd take it too far.


* Well, one example, at a curling tournament. The first year I played in it, I was just too exhausted to stick around for the event that turned into the hazing. The second time, I saw it coming before it happened.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:27 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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I started a thread on hazing a few years ago, and a surprising (and depressing) number of Dopers felt it was OK in order to promote group unity or somesuch.

I've always felt hazing is a self-perpetuating exercise in which the anointed get to torment or brutalize lesser beings, who then in turn look forward to inflicting harm (emotional or physical) on others.

The worst excesses historically seem to have been in the military (it's chilling to read about the Soviet and WWII-era Japanese military, for instance). College organizations are prone to lesser but still obnoxious hazing in which people are sometimes sexually assaulted, suffer serious injury of other kinds, or death.

And to what real purpose? If frats for example want pledges to earn their way in, why not require some kind of public service instead of beating them up or having them drink until comatose?

The answer is that cruelty for its own sake is more rewarding for a lot of people..

Last edited by Jackmannii; 08-09-2018 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:32 PM
chappachula chappachula is offline
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I was a student at a large state university in the 1970's with about 30 fraternities. And everybody knew that there were a lot of hazing rituals.
And here's an interesting data point, which surprised me:

The frats known for the most difficult, and even brutal, hazing were the most popular ones..They had huge numbers of new recruits hoping to allowed to pledge.

The frats known for minor hazing were the least popular ones, and had trouble filling their new pledge class every year.

And this was all voluntary.. (unlike,say,the rituals in the navy mentioned above).
Nobody was forced to join a fraternity(75% of the students did not).
But all the guys who did join knew in advance that they would be forced to go through a lot of hazing.
They seemed to enjoy it.

Last edited by chappachula; 08-09-2018 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:41 PM
aldiboronti aldiboronti is offline
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Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
it's juvenile and dumb.
It is but unfortunately boys will be boys and legislate all you like that ain't gonna change. There will always be tragic accidents but they're rare,
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:51 PM
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<snip>They seemed to enjoy it.
Because they were 18 and stupid.

I challenge the basis of hazing. Commitment to a group should be built up over time with extended efforts and not the relatively instantaneous result of a few days of doing stupid things in public. This is how the real world works: when you get to a new workplace there won't be any rituals or ceremonies to make you feel like you belong,* you have to prove yourself over time. Any humiliations will come as a result of your inability to perform, and that's as it should be.

*at least no workplace I've ever been in.
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:00 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Because they were 18 and stupid.

I challenge the basis of hazing. Commitment to a group should be built up over time with extended efforts and not the relatively instantaneous result of a few days of doing stupid things in public. This is how the real world works: when you get to a new workplace there won't be any rituals or ceremonies to make you feel like you belong,* you have to prove yourself over time. Any humiliations will come as a result of your inability to perform, and that's as it should be.

*at least no workplace I've ever been in.
To be fair, most of the places I've worked in there isn't a commitment to the group. People come to do their job, and if other people start vanishing people will worry more about how it effects their workload than how it'll effect the group(aka the company) as a whole.
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:09 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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It is but unfortunately boys will be boys and legislate all you like that ain't gonna change
It's changing already.

Monster lawsuits plus unwelcome mass media exposure can indeed overcome bureaucratic inertia and pressure from one-time hazers (notice how universities are cracking down more these days).
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:11 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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I think hazing is evil when it crosses the line into pain or humiliation. I've seen examples* of it that I was happy to miss out on although they were essentially harmless.

The ship that I sailed on several years ago still does a line-crossing ceremony when they cross the equator. They're a bit secretive about the details, but I get the impression it's rather like an amateur talent show for the first-time crossers. I don't think they'd take it too far.
Spy Magazine had an article once about that ceremony (as I remember, in particular what happens on US Navy ships).

As for hazing in general, it sucks, particularly when kids die every year due to it. Right now, some former Penn State students are on trial for the death of Timothy Piazza. They gave him eighteen alcoholic drinks in less than ninety minutes and then after he fell down the stairs and was clearly injured, did nothing to get him medical attention. For hours.
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:02 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is online now
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Which means you send people on snipe hunts
What is sadistic and awful with snipe hunts? And I only ever heard about them as summer camp practical jokes (supposedly also for unsuspecting tourists, but I've never heard about an actual example of a tourist being sent on one).



Apart from that, I find hazing preposterous, regardless how mild.
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:07 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
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But all the guys who did join knew in advance that they would be forced to go through a lot of hazing.
They seemed to enjoy it.
I have come the conclusion that it is at least partially a personality thing. Organizations like fraternities self-select for those looking for group inclusion. I've had people tell me with all sincerity that they thought hazing or even just self-humiliating competitions with full participation by everybody really did build a sense of community and belonging. I absolutely believe them and more power to them.

But it would never work that way for me. I'd say "fuck this, I'm not participating in this bullshit." Whether it were simple corporate retreat games or even the mildest fraternity hazing, I've got less than zero interest in participating in those group-building exercises. Live with a bunch of guys in a big frat house? What, are you punishing me for something? Who the hell would want to do that ?

I'm embrassed to say this at my advancing age but this difference really only finally dawned on me several years when I newly divorced friend of mine was looking for a new place to live. I kept steering him towards nice-looking affordable apartments, he kept looking for shared communal-living situations. Living with a group of people by choice!? Utter madness! It was the first time I really started wrapping my head around groups like fraternities/fraternal organizations which had always seemed like ludicrous wastes of time to me before.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 08-09-2018 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:08 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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What is sadistic and awful with snipe hunts? And I only ever heard about them as summer camp practical jokes (supposedly also for unsuspecting tourists, but I've never heard about an actual example of a tourist being sent on one).
I was listing a continuum of theorized types of hazing, roughly ordered from least bad to (hopefully) obviously bad. And I was using 'snipe hunt' as a generalized term referring to any type of false time-wasting errand that 'the new guy' might get sent on - looking for a left-handed monkey wrench, a fictional room or department, that sort of thing. It's my understanding that there are some occupations where that sort of thing happens, including the military.
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:10 PM
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Having gone through one, it's something you take on for yourself, for whatever reason, but never advise someone else about it.

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Old 08-09-2018, 06:36 PM
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I was listing a continuum of theorized types of hazing, roughly ordered from least bad to (hopefully) obviously bad. And I was using 'snipe hunt' as a generalized term referring to any type of false time-wasting errand that 'the new guy' might get sent on - looking for a left-handed monkey wrench, a fictional room or department, that sort of thing. It's my understanding that there are some occupations where that sort of thing happens, including the military.

Mechanics do it.
Blinker fluid
Radiator cap for a corvair/bug
Muffler bearings

Last edited by BobBitchin'; 08-09-2018 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:57 PM
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The ship that I sailed on several years ago still does a line-crossing ceremony when they cross the equator. They're a bit secretive about the details, but I get the impression it's rather like an amateur talent show for the first-time crossers. I don't think they'd take it too far.
I don't know what the ceremony is now, but this is how Doug Stanton described it as it was during WWII in the book In Harm's Way:

Quote:
The induction into King Neptune's domain, for example, which was carried out when a ship crossed the equator, could be a daunting affair. On one ship, the induction, which was meant to strengthen esprit among the boys, involved older officers ordering the green hands to strip, and while dressed only in black neckties, push a peanut across the deck with their noses. Next they met King Neptune himself, usually a fat crew member whose belly had been rubbed in shaving cream, and which the polliwogs rubbed their faces in. This was called "kissing the royal pudding." Finally the recruits entered the King's Chamber, which was actually an artillery target sleeve filled with garbage.
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:13 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is online now
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Because they were 18 and stupid.

I challenge the basis of hazing. Commitment to a group should be built up over time with extended efforts and not the relatively instantaneous result of a few days of doing stupid things in public. This is how the real world works: when you get to a new workplace there won't be any rituals or ceremonies to make you feel like you belong,* you have to prove yourself over time. Any humiliations will come as a result of your inability to perform, and that's as it should be.

*at least no workplace I've ever been in.
Teenage hazing is most definitely part of the real world, because there is no fake world.
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:15 PM
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Teenage hazing is most definitely part of the real world, because there is no fake world.
Are you sure? I thought that's where the fake news comes from.
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:18 PM
betterlifethroughchemistry betterlifethroughchemistry is offline
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I was listing a continuum of theorized types of hazing, roughly ordered from least bad to (hopefully) obviously bad. And I was using 'snipe hunt' as a generalized term referring to any type of false time-wasting errand that 'the new guy' might get sent on - looking for a left-handed monkey wrench, a fictional room or department, that sort of thing. It's my understanding that there are some occupations where that sort of thing happens, including the military.
Hazing that involves inflicting personal pain, potential harm and extreme humiliation is creepy...

Having been through the mild hazing of being a tenderfoot Boy Scout (snipe hunt), and sending a fresh out of college chemist on the hunt for a left-handed gel puller, the milder and benign forms of hazing can be fun, OK, you want to call BS and walk away, nobody cares...but IMHE, everyone just laughs and gets the joke...

Hazing that requires someone to cower and submit, that's totally wrong...
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:25 PM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is offline
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I don't know what the ceremony is now, but this is how Doug Stanton described it as it was during WWII in the book In Harm's Way:
Quote:
The induction into King Neptune's domain, for example, which was carried out when a ship crossed the equator, could be a daunting affair. On one ship, the induction, which was meant to strengthen esprit among the boys, involved older officers ordering the green hands to strip, and while dressed only in black neckties, push a peanut across the deck with their noses. Next they met King Neptune himself, usually a fat crew member whose belly had been rubbed in shaving cream, and which the polliwogs rubbed their faces in. This was called "kissing the royal pudding." Finally the recruits entered the King's Chamber, which was actually an artillery target sleeve filled with garbage.
I don't think my ship would take it that far. For one thing, it's co-ed. Very traditional, and there's definite crew bonding (and you really do need to learn to work together), but I don't think they'd risk anything dangerous.

Now that I remember, the first mate did once send me to get a long weight. I thought I was being had, knew for sure when the engineer told me it was on a shelf next to the prop wash.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:05 PM
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The frats known for the most difficult, and even brutal, hazing were the most popular ones..They had huge numbers of new recruits hoping to allowed to pledge.
People also watch scary horror movies.

In principle I understand that taking your date to a horror movie builds and strengthens your relationship, in a similar way to hazing. but I'd probably rather do the hazing than the horror movie.

Given the well known and well documented benefits of hazing, I guess I regard it a bit like coffee drinking or smoking: if you want to join that kind of group then it's your choice. But given the well known dangers, it's also an activity that cries out for regulation and supervision.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:41 PM
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I am against it and think it should be stopped but the question becomes how.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:47 PM
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To be fair, most of the places I've worked in there isn't a commitment to the group. People come to do their job, and if other people start vanishing people will worry more about how it effects their workload than how it'll effect the group(aka the company) as a whole.
You are fair. I spent most of my working career in newspapers, which tend to foster more fellow feeling than your average office environment, I suppose.

But I think in almost any work environment some people will be appreciated more than others. Sometimes it's personality or good looks. All I ever had to offer was doing a good job quickly, and that was my niche.

DaRvid, college is fantasy land compared to any work environment you can name.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:48 AM
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One club I belonged to in high school, as an initiation someone came around to all the initiates' houses at about 5am, made us wear funny shirts, then took us to breakfast. My parents were in on it of course, as they'd been called a day or two ahead of time for permission. That's about as extreme a hazing as I would tolerate.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:22 AM
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It's immoral, often sadistic and a method of psychological manipulation. Cults, gangs and the like use similar techniques.

The basic principle is simple; get someone to do something unpleasant, stupid or criminal in the name of a cause or group and they become psychologically invested in it. They will be reluctant to admit any wrongdoing or to leave the group because doing so means admitting that what they did was stupid or evil. As something of a corollary, the more extreme the group the more extreme the "hazing" or initiation ritual is in order to create more intense devotion.

So more mainstream organizations have hazing that's humiliating and painful, but usually not deliberately fatal to anyone. On the other extreme you end up with gang initiations involving beating or killing people, and the Chinese revolutionaries & Christian Crusaders who cannibalized their opponents to prove their devotion.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:30 AM
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Aside from it being wrong, how does "welcoming" a newcomer to a group with hostility and humiliation possibly get them started in right or on good terms?
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:47 AM
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I'm having definitional issues here - if the activity is harmless, is it "hazing"?
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:16 AM
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There is nothing positive about the concept in any way, even before we reach the point of humiliation or abuse.

There have been a few comments about a sort of "buy-in" to a group. I also hear people talk about "paying your dues", which I regard as a thinly veiled rationalization for treating new people badly.

I have zero interest in being a part of any group that thinks this way. New people at a workplace need to be trained, gained skills and experience and it should be done in a professional, humane manner *. Too many industries already eat their own young - my friends in nursing and teaching can give an earful on that.

As for social groups... the concept of hazing is utterly bizarre to me. Why would I want to socialize with people who think that way? Any group that wants to haze people in any way has already told me everything I need to know about them.





* An interesting example of this was the Metallica documentary, "Some Kind of Monster". When they were looking for a new bass player, they were determined to treat the new member well because they realized how they had screwed themselves over by how they treated Jason Newsted. When they eventually hired Robert Trujillo, the band is seen offering him a $1 million advance to join. That was anti-hazing, and it seemed a hard learned lesson.

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Old 08-10-2018, 07:19 AM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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I have no use for it.

In a misguided attempt to “be a good sport,” I submitted myself to a Bluenose initiation the second time I crossed the Arctic Circle (well, technically the THIRD time, but they don’t run them on southbound trips). It was unpleasant and puerile enough to convince me that declining to participate during my first crossing had been the right decision.

The following year, I decided that the fact of being aboard a vessel as it crossed the equator was sufficient to make me a shellback, and the initiation was a superfluous exercise in self-debasement. I don’t regret not having been awarded a fancy certificate commemorating the event; the one I got after the Bluenose initiation I put into a drawer, and threw away when I moved out of military housing.

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  #36  
Old 08-10-2018, 07:29 AM
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For teams and such it directly runs counter to team cohesion. Making the team is the trial. Harassing a teammate in any way is never a good idea.

Even the MLB rookie harassments are not "in good fun" and should be completely stopped.

And no, hazing does not "rarely" lead to injuries, deaths, etc. They are quite common.

E.g., two incidents I remember at one university I taught at:

1. A pledge was forced fed a lot of alcohol and drugs. When he was passed out and barely breathing the frat's solution was to dump him off in front of a bar and take off. He died.

2. A frat's hazing ritual involved forcing pledges to swim a cold pond in a park. One pledge went down and didn't come up. The genius frat boys' solution: Call 991? Jump in and search? Nope: run off.

One death like this is far too many. Two within just a few years is unbelievably horrid.

Hazing of any sort, verbal or physical, is contrary to basic human decency. It reveals a basic evil streak in the heart of the hazers. They try to justify it but it always comes down to just wanting to hurt people.
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:37 AM
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There are non-malicious ways to get the same benefit. For instance, when I was in marching band in college, the freshmen had to do things like load and unload all the instruments, and clean out the bus whenever we traveled somewhere. Nobody wanted to do these things, but they were things that genuinely needed to be done: It was just a question of by whom. By shifting them onto the freshmen, we got them done while also instilling that sense of "buy-in" and "paying one's dues".

There was also a tradition of freshmen using the "guest meals" on their meal plans to buy meals for upperclassmen, but that arose because the school required all freshmen to buy the most expensive meal plan, which came with something like eight guest meals per week, and which would be wasted if you didn't use all of them every week. There arguably was harm done there, but it was done by the school (forcing the freshmen to buy the expensive plan), and not made any worse by the band tradition.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:25 AM
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I don't think I'd want to belong to a group that wanted me to do disagreeable things in order to be part of it. That seems like a waste of everyone's time and a curious way to engender inclusion but, tbh, I've never been much for joining groups in the first place.
  #39  
Old 08-10-2018, 09:35 AM
kopek kopek is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
I'm having definitional issues here - if the activity is harmless, is it "hazing"?

A good question; is there a difference between initiation and hazing for example. Our high school marching band had a tradition of having freshmen and first-times being dressed up/covered in shaving cream and silly-string and paraded after our first field drill. There really wasn't that much in the way of humiliation or harm and to the best of my knowledge no-one ever objected. And the teacher/director made darn sure that that was as far as it went; God help the upperclassman who picked on anyone in any other way or at any other time because they were not going to find any mercy anywhere else. That example I wouldn't call "hazing" although a viewer unfamiliar with the tradition probably could. Hazing, like pornography, may be partly in the eyes of the viewer.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:10 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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I'm sort of seeing this break down into three subcategories, in my mind:

1) Grunt work. Sometimes tasks need to be done, and it's stated that the lowest-seniority members have to do them, because 'tradition'. This is arguably good all around, since a) the tasks needed to get done anyway, b) the senior people will be happy to get out of them, and c) it allows the juniors to feel they're earning their way into the group. Of course this presumes the jobs aren't makework or made artificially difficult, which shades into my third subcategory here.

2) Jokes about ignorance. These would be the jokes where you send people after left handed spanners and such, the idea being that you only fell for the joke because you were an outsider, and now that everyone had their laughs you won't fall for it again and are thus more of an insider. These would generally be 'good clean fun', albeit something of a waste of time. This is of course presuming that the tasks given aren't too arduous or humiliating, which again would shade into...

3) Abuse and humiliation. These are things you go into knowing full well they're dumb, humiliating, and/or dangerous, because the group pressures or requires you to. The idea is that no sane outsider would do this crap which means that you must be an insider because you did, with a dash of sunk cost fallacy since now that you went through it you paid for your place and thus are invested in the group. Personally I oppose all this sort of stuff on principle even when it's 'harmless fun', and it's not hard to see how it could become extremely problematic in multiple ways in a hurry.

Last edited by begbert2; 08-10-2018 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Typo. As usual.
  #41  
Old 08-10-2018, 12:33 PM
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I'm sort of seeing this break down into three subcategories, in my mind:

1) Grunt work. Sometimes tasks need to be done, and it's stated that the lowest-seniority members have to do them, because 'tradition'. This is arguably good all around, since a) the tasks needed to get done anyway, b) the senior people will be happy to get out of them, and c) it allows the juniors to feel they're earning their way into the group. Of course this presumes the jobs aren't makework or made artificially difficult, which shades into my third subcategory here.
I think it's a bad idea all around. When I've been in charge of newcomers to anything, I help with the work that's considered the worst to foster a sense that we're all in it together. And I think the source is the, in my view, corrosive attitude that "I had to do it so they should have to do it too."
  #42  
Old 08-10-2018, 12:58 PM
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I went through Fraternity HELL WEEK in late 78....boot Camp (USN in 81) and became a ShellBack (crossed equator) in 83.

By far Hell week was the most grueling and physically taxing. I garuntee I did more setups and push-up in that week than I did in the other two events combined. And that does not include the other gross, degrading, mind-fucking and humiliating things the actives did to us "pledges".

At no time did i feel my life was in danger.

YITB,
tsfr
  #43  
Old 08-10-2018, 01:02 PM
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There are non-malicious ways to get the same benefit. For instance, when I was in marching band in college, the freshmen had to do things like load and unload all the instruments, and clean out the bus whenever we traveled somewhere. Nobody wanted to do these things, but they were things that genuinely needed to be done: It was just a question of by whom. By shifting them onto the freshmen, we got them done while also instilling that sense of "buy-in" and "paying one's dues".

There was also a tradition of freshmen using the "guest meals" on their meal plans to buy meals for upperclassmen, but that arose because the school required all freshmen to buy the most expensive meal plan, which came with something like eight guest meals per week, and which would be wasted if you didn't use all of them every week. There arguably was harm done there, but it was done by the school (forcing the freshmen to buy the expensive plan), and not made any worse by the band tradition.
Nope, that's still malicious. Quite notably so.

Why on Earth would you sort people into "lesser" and "greater" people so that the lesser had to serve the greater???? That is flat out mean.

As to the meals: What makes you think they would go to waste??? The frosh could just as easily give the extra meals to other people, e.g., people who aren't mean and harassing them.

"Justifications" for such hazing are always easy to refute.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:55 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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A good question; is there a difference between initiation and hazing for example. Our high school marching band had a tradition of having freshmen and first-times being dressed up/covered in shaving cream and silly-string and paraded after our first field drill. There really wasn't that much in the way of humiliation or harm and to the best of my knowledge no-one ever objected.
That sounds a lot wimpier than the Ohio State marching band, which became well known a few years ago for more than its public performances. From a N.Y. Times article in 2014:

"Ohio State University fired the director of its renowned marching band...and released a report describing a culture of harassment and alcohol abuse in which students were told to mimic sex acts, march down the aisle of a bus while others tried to pull their clothes off, and march on the football field in their underwear."

One of the cute examples involved a girl who was told to simulate a sex act on her brother.

All in good fun, part of the culture, no evidence they objected.
  #45  
Old 08-10-2018, 01:59 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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no evidence they objected.
Peer pressure / Stockholm Syndrome is a magical thing.
  #46  
Old 08-10-2018, 02:02 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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For an even worse example of marching band hazing, the ritual onboard a bus that resulted in the death of a drum major at Florida A&M University.
  #47  
Old 08-10-2018, 02:06 PM
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FairyChatMom FairyChatMom is offline
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I'm OK with silliness, but I have no use for vicious humiliation, degradation, or physical trauma. You want to make the n00bs on the team wear fairy wings and skip across campus - have a ball. You want to treat them like subhumans and force them to eat disgusting stuff - nope.

The thing about hazing seems to be that many who've gone thru it seem to think they need to top what they endured with the next group, and that's where it gets dangerous, if not downright illegal.
  #48  
Old 08-10-2018, 03:50 PM
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Inigo Montoya Inigo Montoya is offline
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Counter hazing would be fun. Like, you pretend to die during the event and scare the willies out of the perpetrators. Big laughs all around.

Not a big fan of hazing, myself. But then, any time I've been a member of something, membership was a necessary evil to get at what I was really after.
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  #49  
Old 08-10-2018, 03:54 PM
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Icarus Icarus is offline
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The thing about hazing seems to be that many who've gone thru it seem to think they need to top what they endured with the next group, and that's where it gets dangerous, if not downright illegal.
I would add that the leaders of the hazing are frequently college age, which studies have shown lack developed judgement.

Regarding workplace models of hazing, would we include the models in use in medical and law careers, where new hires are expected to put in ungodly hours, because that is "the way it is done"? While there will always be those that argue strenuously that there are very legitimate business reasons for this, it sure seems like those arguments are just self justification for hazing the newbies.
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Last edited by Icarus; 08-10-2018 at 03:55 PM.
  #50  
Old 08-10-2018, 07:15 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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More hazing (excuse me, team culture-building).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus View Post

Regarding workplace models of hazing, would we include the models in use in medical and law careers, where new hires are expected to put in ungodly hours, because that is "the way it is done"? While there will always be those that argue strenuously that there are very legitimate business reasons for this, it sure seems like those arguments are just self justification for hazing the newbies.
A justification heard for the extremely long hours and lack of sleep encountered by some residents (in surgery, for example) is that otherwise they won't see enough cases to ensure proper training, or that ending a shift "prematurely" will place patients at risk by substituting another trainee physician who isn't as famliar with their problem(s). An answer to the first justification is that instead of cramming training into a limited period, you make it as long as necessary; as for the second, improved patient handoffs between doctors are a better idea than keeping someone on the job for an overly long time.

I've long suspected that part of the pressure to continue long hours for residents comes from established docs who 1) genuinely think it made them better prepared physicians, 2) resent the idea that others won't go through the grueling schedule they were compelled to, and 3) fewer trainees on the job means physicians in practice might have to take up some of the slack, meaning longer hours for them.

I remember reading a semi-autobiographical book written by a surgeon a few years ago, who advanced the argument that extremely long hours toughened and better prepared him for emergencies and working when exhausted. He also conceded that while he was learning during residency, patient care may have suffered. So I suppose the best thing is to hope you get the seasoned attending when a crisis hits, not the fogged-out zombie resident who's in the act of being "toughened up".
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