Straight Dope Message Board

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Kable

Is this cute 89 year old lady who defended herself against a home invader inane?

What is inane is your insistence that a 89 year old lady who defended herself is a stupid gun news story. 251

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

What is inane is your insistence that a 89 year old lady who defended herself is a stupid gun news story.

No, you don't get it, man! It's not a stupid gun news story, but posting it in a thread about stupid gun news stories totally makes it a "gotcha!". Don't you all feel stupid now? 252

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Gyrate

Don't you all feel stupid now?

mmm, no.


253

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Originally Posted by Kable

Is this cute 89 year old lady who defended herself against a home invader inane?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jURuXjjJ8

Two interesting things there - she was quite successful doing so with a little revolver. Also, the story was apparently on CNN.

Thanks for sharing your evidence that people do not need semi-automatic weapons for successful personal defense, and that these stories receive significant media attention. 254

[YogSothoth]

In other words, 89 year old lady defends herself with gun that would not be banned. 255

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by YogSosoth

In other words, 89 year old lady defends herself with gun that would not be banned.

And the nice policeman reloaded it for her.
They won't do that with a thirty round magazine. 256

[Defensive Indifference]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

Two interesting things there - she was quite successful doing so with a little revolver. Also, the story was apparently on CNN.

Thanks for sharing your evidence that people do not need semi-automatic weapons for successful personal defense, and that these stories receive significant media attention.

Originally Posted by YogSosoth

In other words, 89 year old lady defends herself with gun that would not be banned.

I did a little further reading on this story. I'll say first of all that I am very glad the woman in the story (Beatrice Turner) was unhurt, and I think she was well within her rights to shoot the guy.

Now, then.

The CNN piece excluded some details that were reported by the Des Moines Register. The Register article is no longer available for free online, but the patriots over at something called m4carbine.net helpfully copied and pasted the whole article for future generations to enjoy.

Originally Posted by Des Moines Register, via copyright violators

Turner fired one shot - and missed. "I squeezed it again but it didn't go off," she said. "By then he was pounding on the coffee table."

Turner said the man kept repeating, "It's not daylight, it's not daylight."

"I told him Jesus and I would go outside with him and make the daylight come," Turner said.

A neighbor who heard the gunshot called police.

When officers arrived at Turner's house, located north of Hiatt Middle School, they found Nelson McAlpine, 37, standing in the front yard. Officers asked him if he lived there, and he said, 'No.'

McAlpine reportedly told police he had been using drugs and didn't know where he was, officers said.

Sure, the gun played a part in this story. Had Ms. Turner not had a gun, I am sure the story would have played out differently. But I note that Ms. Turner, having been unable to get off a second shot, defused the situation by calming the guy down verbally. Talking to him, saying Jesus would help him, was what finally resolved the situation.

Again, I am not disputing that Ms. Turner had every right to kill an intruder. And I am not disputing that defensive gun uses do happen. I just don't see this as a slam-dunk case for a gun saving her life. I see it as a case of the media getting some mileage out of the "gun-toting granny" trope, even though the granny's kindness and compassion ended up being more effective than the gun.

And because I am bored (hey, it's my last week before I go to a new job), I started poking around on the topic of elderly people and guns in general. In a 2010 article, The NY Times reports on the increasingly common problem of elderly Americans, some suffering from dementia, holding on to their guns. The article notes:

Originally Posted by NY Times

With the 85-and-older population growing faster than any group in the country, gun ownership among the very old is increasingly a concern of adult children, who worry that elderly parents will commit suicide or shoot someone they mistake for an intruder

The VA has launched a public awareness campaign about the dangers of firearms in the hands of people with dementia. One of their publications (PDF) notes that firearm owners with dementia are at increased risk of shooting a loved one they mistake for an intruder. And a study in the Journal of the American Geriatric Society found that firearms were present in 60.4% of houseolds in which a member suffered from dementia. In households with a firearm, 44% of the families reported that the guns were kept loaded, and 38% of families reported that they were not sure if the guns were loaded or not.

In Seattle in September 2012, police shot and killed a man with dementia in a "tragic incident". The Seattle Times reports that 77-year-old Henry Lee called 911 to report an intruder. There was no intruder. There was an unrelated emergency response going on in the street in front of the house, and Lee apparently mistook the commotion for an intruder. When police arrived and made their way toward Lee's house, Lee stood in the doorway and brandished a gun. The police ordered him to drop it. He lowered the gun, then raised it again. Police then shot him. Price of freedom, I suppose.

Sure, it's a fun story when Granny shoots an intruder (even when she doesn't, really), but it's a little less amusing when cops shoot an elderly person who probably shouldn't have a gun anymore. 257

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Bayard

Sure, it's a fun story when Granny shoots an intruder (even when she doesn't, really), but it's a little less amusing when cops shoot an elderly person who probably shouldn't have a gun anymore.

You're a real spoil sport, you know that, Bayard?


258

[ElvisL1ves]

"You'll shoot your eye out, Grandpa!" 259

[artemis]

Originally Posted by Bayard

The VA has launched a public awareness campaign about the dangers of firearms in the hands of people with dementia.

I'm tempted to say your sentence should be altered to read "a public awareness campaign of the danger of people with dementia." Firearms, cars, power tools, kitchen appliances... there's almost no end to the things a demented person shouldn't be handling anymore because of the danger it poses to them and to others around them. But who wants to hold that conversation with their parents? "Dad, I think it's time you sell your guns and power tools. Mom, I think it's time you stop driving."

But we sure need to talk about these things! Here's hoping the VA's campaign does some good. At least with cars in the hands of the very elderly, there's more general awareness of the problem. Creating awareness is definitely the first step. 260

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by artemis

I'm tempted to say your sentence should be altered to read "a public awareness campaign of the danger of people with dementia." Firearms, cars, power tools, kitchen appliances... there's almost no end to the things a demented person shouldn't be handling anymore

My MIL was hell on pilot lights. 261

[Hentor the Barbarian]

The only way to stop a demented guy with a gun is some other guy with a gun. More guns in nursing homes. 262

[artemis]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

My MIL was hell on pilot lights.

My grandmother, who died of Alzheimer's, nearly burned the house down once trying to "cook" something on the stove. And I shudder to think what a demented handyman type might do by trying to "fix" the furnace or the electrical wiring.

Dementia has such an insidious onset, and so many of us no longer live where we have regular close contact with our aging relatives, that we may not see how severe the problem is before a tragedy happens. I can see this becoming a huge issue in the coming decades. 263

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

The only way to stop a demented guy with a gun is some other guy with a gun. More guns in nursing homes.

Finally. Someone gets it. 264

[elucidator]

...Talking to him, saying Jesus would help him, was what finally resolved the situation....

So, its better to have a Jesus and not need one, than to need one and not have one. There's probably something deep there, but I'll never know. 265

[Vinyl Turnip]

Yeah. When it comes to Jesus, I'm wholeheartedly in favor of concealed carry. 266

[steronz]

Do we need to be worried about assault Jesus? 267

[artemis]

Originally Posted by steronz

Do we need to be worried about assault Jesus?

Well, he did say he came not to bring peace but a sword, so I'd say yes. Plus we know he's unstable - look what he did to those moneychangers! 268

[Ethilrist]

That business with the loaves and fishes sounds like he's a high-capacity Jesus. 269

[artemis]

I think we've provided clear evidence of Assault Jesus. Time to ban Christianity! When people object on First Amendment grounds, we can offer a compromise: religious people will be able to choose from a limited list of Christian denominations prevetted for safety (like the Amish and the Quakers - who's ever heard of a violent Quaker?), and possess a Bible with no more than two Gospels in it. Who needs more than two Gospels at a time? Of course, any Bibles written before the new laws go into effect can be grandfathered in. 270

[steronz]

No grandfathering. I hear they're dangerous. 271

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by steronz

Do we need to be worried about assault Jesus?

Not anymore. Kia the Homeless Hatchet-wielding Hitchhiker took care of him. 272

[Kable]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

Two interesting things there - she was quite successful doing so with a little revolver. Also, the story was apparently on CNN.

Thanks for sharing your evidence that people do not need semi-automatic weapons for successful personal defense, and that these stories receive significant media attention.

Of course revolvers are good for defense, though not my first choice. But seeing as how you are an expert in these gun debates Hentor, you must know that just because she was successful with a revolver that fired only one shot before jamming does not mean that all people will be. Surely you also know that a .22 has less reliability in general than do centerfire guns and in general .22s are not considered suitable for personal defense because of their low power. Also you would know that semi-auto firearms generally recoil less per a given caliber than do revolvers and thus would be easier for an older person to shoot, and their larger magazine capacity if needed would help to make up for a person who was a poorer shot and/or was shooting a caliber with lesser knockdown power. You would know all that right? 273

[Ca3799]

Originally Posted by Kable

Of course revolvers are good for defense, though not my first choice. But seeing as how you are an expert in these gun debates Hentor, you must know that just because she was successful with a revolver that fired only one shot before jamming does not mean that all people will be. Surely you also know that a .22 has less reliability in general than do centerfire guns and in general .22s are not considered suitable for personal defense because of their low power. Also you would know that semi-auto firearms generally recoil less per a given caliber than do revolvers and thus would be easier for an older person to shoot, and their larger magazine capacity if needed would help to make up for a person who was a poorer shot and/or was shooting a caliber with lesser knockdown power. You would know all that right?

Aw, heck. Even lil ole grammas know that! 274

[Kable]

Originally Posted by YogSosoth

In other words, 89 year old lady defends herself with gun that would not be banned.

Not yet, but as a number of posters on this very board have said, the Presidents proposals are just "a good start." We all know gun-control advocates consider handguns the big evil. "Assault weapons" are just the low hanging fruit for now. 275

[Kable]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

What is inane is your insistence that a 89 year old lady who defended herself is a stupid gun news story.

Yeah well, how about this guy in a wheelchair?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pPtbI5C4NY 276

[Kimstu]

Originally Posted by Kable

Of course revolvers are good for defense, though not my first choice. But seeing as how you are an expert in these gun debates Hentor, you must know that just because she was successful with a revolver that fired only one shot before jamming does not mean that all people will be. Surely you also know that a .22 has less reliability in general than do centerfire guns and in general .22s are not considered suitable for personal defense because of their low power. Also you would know that semi-auto firearms generally recoil less per a given caliber than do revolvers and thus would be easier for an older person to shoot, and their larger magazine capacity if needed would help to make up for a person who was a poorer shot and/or was shooting a caliber with lesser knockdown power. You would know all that right?

Moral: When an attempted attack is not foiled by defensive gun use, that proves that people should be using more powerful guns.

When an attempted attack is foiled by defensive gun use, on the other hand, that proves... that people should be using more powerful guns.

I get the impression that this particular magic 8-ball has only one answer in its repertoire. 277

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Kable, wasn't that anecdote brought here by you? Why, yes it was! And so was the last one about the woman with the small pistol, and the previous one about the woman sucessfully defending herself with a small pistol.

It's odd that you seem so antagonistic towards your own argument from anecdote. 278

[Ethilrist]

Well, if all he's going to do is post a youtube link rather than give us the text of the story, he's kind of got to argue both sides, then, doesn't he? 279

[Kable]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

Kable, wasn't that anecdote brought here by you? Why, yes it was! And so was the last one about the woman with the small pistol, and the previous one about the woman sucessfully defending herself with a small pistol.

It's odd that you seem so antagonistic towards your own argument from anecdote.

No, the anecdote was still cool. You just drew an ignorant conclusion. 280

[Kable]

Originally Posted by Kimstu

Moral: When an attempted attack is not foiled by defensive gun use, that proves that people should be using more powerful guns.

When an attempted attack is foiled by defensive gun use, on the other hand, that proves... that people should be using more powerful guns.

I get the impression that this particular magic 8-ball has only one answer in its repertoire.

I'd almost think you guys were joking, but then I realize a lot of you have zero exposure to firearms. Of course a .22 can stop crimes, and so can brandishing an empty gun or realistic toy, and these are all cool when they happen. But none of those are ideal defensive weapons. 281

[2square4u]

Originally Posted by Kable

Also you would know that semi-auto firearms generally recoil less per a given caliber than do revolvers and thus would be easier for an older person to shoot, and their larger magazine capacity if needed would help to make up for a person who was a poorer shot

(emphasis mine)

Fuckin' A! Sounds like a wonderful idea. "If you can't hit a fucking barn door, use a high-cap semi-auto and just spray the damn neighborhood".

Count me as one of those who'd run like hell if old Granny (ETA: or anyone else, for that matter) started waving a 33-round Glock 18 around 282

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by Kable

I'd almost think you guys were joking, but then I realize a lot of you have zero exposure to firearms. Of course a .22 can stop crimes, and so can brandishing an empty gun or realistic toy, and these are all cool when they happen. But none of those are ideal defensive weapons.

Quite, but the pocket Cobalt Thorium G bombs are still in production, so we'll have to make do, God wot? 283

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Kable

No, the anecdote was still cool. You just drew an ignorant conclusion.

We drew the conclusion that you're ignorant, yes.

Originally Posted by Kable

I'd almost think you guys were joking, but then I realize a lot of you have zero exposure to firearms. Of course a .22 can stop crimes, and so can brandishing an empty gun or realistic toy, and these are all cool when they happen. But none of those are ideal defensive weapons.

If your point is that small pistols are not ideal defensive weapons, perhaps you should stop posting links to stories of people defending themselves with small pistols. Just a suggestion.

In other stupid gun news, old guy snaps and shoots asshole neighbors. Clearly the answer is to ban large-capacity dogs. 284

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Kable

I'd almost think you guys were joking, but then I realize a lot of you have zero exposure to firearms. Of course a .22 can stop crimes, and so can brandishing an empty gun or realistic toy, and these are all cool when they happen. But none of those are ideal defensive weapons.

You could shoot a guy six times with a .22, and he could beat you to death with a bar stool while he bled to death. 285

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

You could shoot a guy six times with a .22, and he could beat you to death with a bar stool while he bled to death.

So, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a bar stool is a good guy with a bar stool... 286

[Ca3799]

Slate and @GunDeaths have been trying to document all the gun deaths since Newtown since it appears that that information is not really kept by any group or entity.

Yesterday, the number was 1,619.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._shooting.html 287

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

So, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a bar stool is a good guy with a bar stool...

Yes, but the bar stool ban... 288

[Kable]

Originally Posted by 2square4u

(emphasis mine)

Fuckin' A! Sounds like a wonderful idea. "If you can't hit a fucking barn door, use a high-cap semi-auto and just spray the damn neighborhood".

Count me as one of those who'd run like hell if old Granny (ETA: or anyone else, for that matter) started waving a 33-round Glock 18 around

Well you could just let Granny get murdered. You could up her hit percentage considerably if you gave her a long gun, like a shotgun or AR15. They are a lot easier to aim than a pistol. Glock 18s are hard to control and already illegal. 289

[Kable]

Originally Posted by Gyrate

If your point is that small pistols are not ideal defensive weapons, perhaps you should stop posting links to stories of people defending themselves with small pistols. Just a suggestion.

I'm just posting links with people defending themselves with firearms, whether they be ideal firearms for the purpose is a different matter. Less than ideal firearms are a lot better than no firearms when someone is coming after you. You knew that didn't you? 290

[Kable]

Originally Posted by Ca3799

Slate and @GunDeaths have been trying to document all the gun deaths since Newtown since it appears that that information is not really kept by any group or entity.

Yesterday, the number was 1,619.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._shooting.html

How many of those were killed with "assault weapons?" How does that number compare to the number of gun related deaths we had when the "assault weapon" ban was in effect? 291

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Kable

Well you could just let Granny get murdered. You could up her hit percentage considerably if you gave her a long gun, like a shotgun or AR15. They are a lot easier to aim than a pistol. Glock 18s are hard to control and already illegal.

A claymore would add some emphasis to "Get off my lawn!" 292

[steronz]

Originally Posted by Kable

How many of those were killed with "assault weapons?"

Why, would that make those deaths any less stupid? 293

[Kable]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

A claymore would add some emphasis to "Get off my lawn!"

I think this was my first example, where a lady used a shotgun to kill the rapist that was coming after her for the 2nd time. It's just easier to hit with a long gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQ...dd0I_H&index=1 294

[Kable]

Originally Posted by steronz

Why, would that make those deaths any less stupid?

I'm sure some are stupid, but if few or none were committed with an "assault weapon" it will make the new proposed "assault weapon" ban just as stupid as the old one. 295

[Ca3799]

Originally Posted by Kable

How many of those were killed with "assault weapons?" How does that number compare to the number of gun related deaths we had when the "assault weapon" ban was in effect?

I dunno, but it appears that the mass shootings have increased sine the assault weapon ban ended. Could you research that real quick? 296

[Kable]

Originally Posted by Ca3799

I dunno, but it appears that the mass shootings have increased sine the assault weapon ban ended. Could you research that real quick?

If you can't answer maybe give your best guess? Out of 1619 how many of those deaths were due to "assault weapons?" 297

[Jack Batty]

Sure there were 20 children mowed down just before Christmas but it doesn't look like anybody's been killed by an assault weapon in a whole month and a half since then. Another victory for the NRA. 298

[steronz]

Originally Posted by Kable

If you can't answer maybe give your best guess? Out of 1619 how many of those deaths were due to "assault weapons?"

At least 26, most of those were 6-year-olds.

Oh, sorry. "6-year-olds." Forgot the scare quotes. 299

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Originally Posted by Kable

How many of those were killed with "assault weapons?" How does that number compare to the number of gun related deaths we had when the "assault weapon" ban was in effect?

You have asserted that the previous assault weapons ban was completely ineffective because it was easily circumvented. So what will a comparison of rates then and now tell us? 300