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Old 07-16-2019, 12:36 PM
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What "Conservative Values" aren't based on bigotry?


In a current thread, a poster claimed that it was unfair to conflate 'conservative values' with bigotry. So I would like for conservative posters to list some mainstream conservative values that aren't based directly bigotry and that aren't applied in a bigoted way in practice. For example, one might claim that 'support for the military' is a conservative value, but would need to explain why support for the military doesn't include support for the transgender active service members under attack by Trump, or opposition to Trumps slams on veterans like McCain. Simply saying 'support for traditional families' wouldn't count, as that's just a dog whistle for the explicitly bigoted position of denying gay people human rights. I'm genuinely curious if there is anything left in the Conservative Value book that is more than a platitude and isn't based on being incredibly nasty to some group.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:23 PM
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I would argue that Supply Side Economics is based upon idiocy and not bigotry.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:24 PM
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I disagree with your premise that "support for the military" necessarily must include supporting inclusion of transgender people in the services. If you had a different example that didn't include poisoning the well, that might be more useful.

How about "personal responsibility" as a conservative value? It's one of mine, and it isn't based on bigotry. If you just want to say "is so", knock yourself out.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:28 PM
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Personal responsibility is a liberal value as well, Shodan. Just come by my house someday and see how it's done.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:29 PM
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I disagree with your premise that "support for the military" necessarily must include supporting inclusion of transgender people in the services. If you had a different example that didn't include poisoning the well, that might be more useful.

How about "personal responsibility" as a conservative value? It's one of mine, and it isn't based on bigotry. If you just want to say "is so", knock yourself out.

Regards,
Shodan
"Personal Responsibility" is a platitude.

Can you give me one example of Republicans holding a fellow Republican personally responsible for his or her actions? Is Trump being made to be personally responsible for his many documented instances of obstruction of justice as outlined in the Mueller report?
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:31 PM
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Rush Limbaugh on personal responsibility.

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RUSH LIMBAUGH (HOST): When you destroy a a society's -- when you destroy the concept of self-reliance, when you stigmatize rugged individualism, which is what we have been doing in this country for thirty or forty years, maybe longer. When you stigmatize people who are self-sufficient, able to take care of themselves and their families, and when you turn the country over to the various stages of minorities who haven't accomplished anything and make them the power simply because they are the minority and because it's unfair that we have a minority you are in the process of destroying the foundation that any country needs. And I'll tell you something else that is going on. When you stop honoring heroes -- and this is Colin Kaepernick -- he can do whatever he wants, sit on his ass, be applauded for it by the proper liberal authorities in sports media and all the intellectuals, "He's got constitutional rights, freedom of speech, don't you know? It's very courageous." Yes very courageous to sit on your ass as a third string quarterback likely to be cut. Very, very, very courageous to sit on your butt in the country that made you the star and the wealthy millionaire that you are.
You listen to this guy, right, Shodan?

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Old 07-16-2019, 01:32 PM
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Shodan, is your use of 'personal responsibility' similar to 'pulling yourself up by your bootstarps', or something else?
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:35 PM
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Denial of climate change?
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:36 PM
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I would say "rugged individualism", but as the Limbaugh quote above shows, "rugged individualism" is merely a means for old white men to whine about the differences of (minority) others.

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Old 07-16-2019, 01:38 PM
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Commitment to fiscal responsibility and balanced budgets? Well, we've only had that from Democrats in recent memory, so maybe they're the real conservative party.

Climate change denial is another aspect of the basic attitude that's also called personal responsibility: "I got mine, the hell with anyone else." That isn't inherently bigotry as such.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:40 PM
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The traditional conservative approach to judicial review doesn't seem to have any bigotry as its basis.

Of course the conservative members of the Supreme Court circa 2013 had no problem tossing aside their traditional approach in the name of bigotry in Shelby County v Holder, so I'm not sure if conservatives can still claim it.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:41 PM
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  • Free speech (generally defended more by conservatives than liberals these days) has a wide variety of applications outside of social issues. You have to be able to criticize one's government; it's a bulwark against gradual tyranny. It's worth noting that liberals were strongly in favor of free speech in the 1970s.
  • Freedom of religion is often cited as an excuse for homophobia or whatnot, but it's also what enables Muslims, Jews, Hindus and people of all other religions to live their way as well. Without freedom of religion, a Christian American government could ban Muslims (not just from entering the nation, but from existing, period.)
  • Whether low taxation is good economic policy or not is its own debate, but it can be fairly said to have nothing to do with bigotry.
  • Ditto for the right to bear arms. Self-defense isn't about bigotry. In fact, after Trump got elected, a fair number of LGBT and minority Americans started buying up guns because they feared for their safety and wanted to defend themselves.
  • Strong national defense (and also fighting in international wars that are worth fighting in) has nothing to do with bigotry; unless FDR's waging of war in WWII against Nazi Germany was somehow bigoted.
  • Expansion of drilling for oil (Obama once said the Republican "three-point plan for energy was drill, drill, drill") might not be good economic or environmental policy, but it has nothing to do with bigotry. It has to do with a desire for cheaper, more plentiful oil and also wanting to reduce dependency on a volatile Middle East.



Finally, might I note, the very thread question, "What conservative values aren't based off of bigotry?" belies a certain amount of implicit bigotry/bias in itself.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:43 PM
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Except Trump just said that the media "writing bad" isn't free speech.

I didn't hear any criticism from any Republicans for that remark. So how can you say that is a conservative value? Where are they all now when freedom of speech is being attacked by the President himself?

ETA: Also freedom of religion != attempting to legislate your religious views on everyone. The latter is actually bigotry, and is what the Republicans actually do in practice. Otherwise they'd be defending satanism, islam and every other religion just as vociferously right?
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:47 PM
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Nailing down conservatism is like nailing jelly to a wall, but Russell Kirk did a pretty good job of it. We can say that modern conservatism is based on these principles. None of these principles are based on bigotry. Bigotry is and has been used by some who also believe in some of these, but also by some who don’t believe in hardly any of them, like Trump and most modern Republicans.


Kirk:

First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.
Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.
Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription.
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.
Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.
Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.
Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.
Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.

They are fleshed out a little here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/1987/pdf/hl86.pdf
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:47 PM
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Shodan, is your use of 'personal responsibility' similar to 'pulling yourself up by your bootstarps', or something else?
Must be, because "a person should be held accountable for his actions" sure doesn't fit.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:48 PM
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Maybe the results would be more meaningful if we stop equating Trumpwith all conservatives and Conservatism itself.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:48 PM
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How about "personal responsibility" as a conservative value? It's one of mine, and it isn't based on bigotry. If you just want to say "is so", knock yourself out.
It may not based in bigotry, but it's a value that bigots will happily rally around because of its inherent impact on minorities.

Personal Responsibility, that bootstrappy value of doing for yourself rather than relying upon others, works wonderfully for people who have access to resources. People who lack resources have a harder time of it, not because they are bad people, but because they don't have access to the same resources as their competitors.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:48 PM
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In a current thread, a poster claimed that it was unfair to conflate 'conservative values' with bigotry. So I would like for conservative posters to list some mainstream conservative values that aren't based directly bigotry and that aren't applied in a bigoted way in practice. For example, one might claim that 'support for the military' is a conservative value, but would need to explain why support for the military doesn't include support for the transgender active service members under attack by Trump, or opposition to Trumps slams on veterans like McCain. Simply saying 'support for traditional families' wouldn't count, as that's just a dog whistle for the explicitly bigoted position of denying gay people human rights. I'm genuinely curious if there is anything left in the Conservative Value book that is more than a platitude and isn't based on being incredibly nasty to some group.
You and others seem to be conflating conservatism with Trump support, or the Republican Party itself. Kind of a poisoned well there.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:52 PM
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Maybe the results would be more meaningful if we stop equating Trumpwith all conservatives and Conservatism itself.
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You and others seem to be conflating conservatism with Trump support, or the Republican Party itself. Kind of a poisoned well there.
Well maybe some conservatives should separate themselves from Trump first? As of now he represents all of them, and almost none of them are taking issue with his words and actions.

If you want to be considered distant from Trump you must first distance yourself. I don't see much evidence that any Republicans are having much of an issue with him or his policies, such as they are. It sounds like you want it both ways, you want the power that he helps you have, but you don't want the responsibility of supporting it.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:53 PM
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I'm going to make the SDMB moderator version of a "citizen's arrest" here and declare that there is "no political bashing in GQ". Heck, the thread TITLE is a political bash! LOL
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:56 PM
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I'm going to make the SDMB moderator version of a "citizen's arrest" here and declare that there is "no political bashing in GQ". Heck, the thread TITLE is a political bash! LOL
Errr? This is Great Debates, not GQ.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:58 PM
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You and others seem to be conflating conservatism with Trump support, or the Republican Party itself. Kind of a poisoned well there.
It wasn't progressives or Democrats who nominated and elected him, was it?

A desire to dissociate oneself from the fruits of conservatism and Republicanism, now that they're apparent and mashed in everyone's faces, is certainly understandable, but that desire is not compatible with a claim to believe in personal responsibility.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:02 PM
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Conservatives are generally very pro-business. They believe in low corporate taxes, deregulation, copyright defense, weak unions, and government subsidies.

While I don't think all of these are sound economic ideas, I don't believe any of them are based on racism.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:07 PM
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Racism isn't the only type of bigotry. Classism is also bigotry, and deregulation, weak unions, low corporate taxes all harm the lower classes by weakening the social safety net.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:08 PM
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  • Free speech (generally defended more by conservatives than liberals these days) has a wide variety of applications outside of social issues. You have to be able to criticize one's government; it's a bulwark against gradual tyranny. It's worth noting that liberals were strongly in favor of free speech in the 1970s.
  • Freedom of religion is often cited as an excuse for homophobia or whatnot, but it's also what enables Muslims, Jews, Hindus and people of all other religions to live their way as well. Without freedom of religion, a Christian American government could ban Muslims (not just from entering the nation, but from existing, period.)
  • Whether low taxation is good economic policy or not is its own debate, but it can be fairly said to have nothing to do with bigotry.
  • Ditto for the right to bear arms. Self-defense isn't about bigotry. In fact, after Trump got elected, a fair number of LGBT and minority Americans started buying up guns because they feared for their safety and wanted to defend themselves.
  • Strong national defense (and also fighting in international wars that are worth fighting in) has nothing to do with bigotry; unless FDR's waging of war in WWII against Nazi Germany was somehow bigoted.
  • Expansion of drilling for oil (Obama once said the Republican "three-point plan for energy was drill, drill, drill") might not be good economic or environmental policy, but it has nothing to do with bigotry. It has to do with a desire for cheaper, more plentiful oil and also wanting to reduce dependency on a volatile Middle East.
Free Speech, when a certain minority football player criticized the government, the President (a supposed conservative) himself demanded that he be punished by his employer, and fuck all if the NFL owners didn't do exactly what the government wanted. Seriously, if you want to protect the ability of people to criticize the government, tell your President to quit demanding punishments for people who criticize the government. Until that's done, you don't get to own this as a "conservative value"

Freedom of religion - conservative support of this is bigoted against the non-religious.

Taxation - I think you're on more solid ground here. I don't think stretching the concept of bigotry to Rich vs. Poor is useful.

2nd amendment, national defense and oil, I'd say are all bigotry free ideas.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:15 PM
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Free Speech, when a certain minority football player criticized the government, the President (a supposed conservative) himself demanded that he be punished by his employer, and fuck all if the NFL owners didn't do exactly what the government wanted.
Yes, but this was arguably an un-conservative thing done by Trump. Not everything Trump does is conservative; in fact, he is arguably the most un-conservative Republican there has been in a long while.


This would be like someone pointing to Barack Obama's $600 billion defense budgets and saying, "What is so liberal and progressive about spending hundreds of billions of dollars on the military?" Well, not everything Obama did was liberal.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:29 PM
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Yes, but this was arguably an un-conservative thing done by Trump. Not everything Trump does is conservative; in fact, he is arguably the most un-conservative Republican there has been in a long while.
Please point out all of the conservative politicians that criticized that? Or that have criticized any of the "non-conservative" things Trump has done or said?

You are trying to let conservatives have it both ways. Is that personal responsibility? Like it or not Trump and conservatism are currently a venn diagram that looks like a circle until someone, or anyone, on that side opposes him.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:32 PM
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Conservatism, like liberalism, needs to be operationalized and contextualized.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:42 PM
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"Personal Responsibility" is a platitude.

Can you give me one example of Republicans holding a fellow Republican personally responsible for his or her actions? Is Trump being made to be personally responsible for his many documented instances of obstruction of justice as outlined in the Mueller report?

Steve King
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:45 PM
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Well maybe some conservatives should separate themselves from Trump first? As of now he represents all of them, and almost none of them are taking issue with his words and actions.

If you want to be considered distant from Trump you must first distance yourself. I don't see much evidence that any Republicans are having much of an issue with him or his policies, such as they are. It sounds like you want it both ways, you want the power that he helps you have, but you don't want the responsibility of supporting it.
First of all, Trump represents everyone in America, even those that didn't vote for him or who actively oppose him. But what does that have to do with conservatism? Conservatism didn't poof into existence when Trump took office, nor will it poof away when he is gone.

Second - What does responsibility have to do with the question in the OP? The question posed is regarding conservative values that aren't based on bigotry. Instead of people who hold conservative views responding, we have several people who do not hold conservative views saying how bad Trump is and how bigoted conservatism is. That's why I think it's a poisoned well.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:47 PM
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Steve King
Still in office. An open white supremacist and he's still in office.

How is that holding him responsible?
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:51 PM
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First of all, Trump represents everyone in America, even those that didn't vote for him or who actively oppose him. But what does that have to do with conservatism? Conservatism didn't poof into existence when Trump took office, nor will it poof away when he is gone.

Second - What does responsibility have to do with the question in the OP? The question posed is regarding conservative values that aren't based on bigotry. Instead of people who hold conservative views responding, we have several people who do not hold conservative views saying how bad Trump is and how bigoted conservatism is. That's why I think it's a poisoned well.
One of the first things listed in this thread as a conservative value was personal responsibility, and since then we've had several people denying that conservatism is responsible for Trump. Awfully convenient and goes exactly against the concept of personal responsibility as a value of conservatism. It's not being responsible if you only take responsibility for the things you want to.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:57 PM
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First of all, Trump represents everyone in America, even those that didn't vote for him or who actively oppose him.
Even he doesn't think so. Both he and the most vociferous of his supporters have been pretty open about who they consider a "real American" etc., and that does not include "everyone".

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But what does that have to do with conservatism?
That's who fucking elected him, that's what.

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Second - What does responsibility have to do with the question in the OP?
Given that it is not on display from any of the conservatives we have heard from, either here or elsewhere, apparently it has nothing to do with the question.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:00 PM
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One of the first things listed in this thread as a conservative value was personal responsibility, and since then we've had several people denying that conservatism is responsible for Trump. Awfully convenient and goes exactly against the concept of personal responsibility as a value of conservatism. It's not being responsible if you only take responsibility for the things you want to.
You're equivocating on the word responsibility. Personal responsibility is not the same thing as responsibility for Trump or his policies. But here you go again, continuing to equate Trump with conservatism. If you can't get past that then I'll disregard the thread as another TDS bashing fest.


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Racism isn't the only type of bigotry. Classism is also bigotry, and deregulation, weak unions, low corporate taxes all harm the lower classes by weakening the social safety net.
You consider lower corporate taxes is bigotry? And deregulation too? Well okay then. If this is the usage you're employing I find the term meaningless.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:03 PM
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You're equivocating on the word responsibility. Personal responsibility is not the same thing as responsibility for Trump or his policies. But here you go again, continuing to equate Trump with conservatism. If you can't get past that then I'll disregard the thread as another TDS bashing fest.
1) Do you consider personal responsibility a conservative value?
2) Do you think conservatives are responsible for Trump?

If you answer yes and no, then how do you square that?


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You consider lower corporate taxes is bigotry? And deregulation too? Well okay then. If this is the usage you're employing I find the term meaningless.
Yeah I don't feel that strongly about that, but slashing the safety net is always the other side of the low taxes thing, and that does always harm the lower class at the benefit of the higher classes. But that's not a hill I'm going to come close to dying on.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:13 PM
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1) Do you consider personal responsibility a conservative value?
2) Do you think conservatives are responsible for Trump?

If you answer yes and no, then how do you square that?
I answer yes and yes. But I also think you are responsible for Trump, at least as much as I am.

Voting for president is a binary choice, and if both candidates are not to your liking, but one is a demon in a human skin suit most people would go for the actual human. Doesn't mean they agree with all or any of their policies or actions.

Personal responsibility in the context of conservatism has more to do with being responsible for the rewards and penalties of actions that are under your own control. It contrasts with luck, or deterministic views on actions. Here's an article that talks about it. It's not perfect, but it could be a primer. See nothing there has to do with Trump. An interesting discussion can be had about the balance between personal responsibility and how much is out of one's control, and how conservative views tend to balance those things out. But no, it's all Trump is the suxors all the way down. Like I said, poisoned well.

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Old 07-16-2019, 03:23 PM
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Let's make it simple: Did you vote for Trump? Then you are personally responsible for the results. No more of this blame-deflection nonsense, please.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:23 PM
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One of the first things listed in this thread as a conservative value was personal responsibility, and since then we've had several people denying that conservatism is responsible for Trump. Awfully convenient and goes exactly against the concept of personal responsibility as a value of conservatism. It's not being responsible if you only take responsibility for the things you want to.
I'm a conservative and I didn't vote for the buffoon. How am I responsible?
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:29 PM
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I'm a conservative and I didn't vote for the buffoon. How am I responsible?
If you are still a conservative now, and your team has been and is currently enabling the buffoon 100%, and will continue to, then how are you not? You either stand with the actions of your team or you don't. This is the "having it both ways" thing. Like it or not Trump is the leader of the conservative movement and if you are on that team you share responsibility for what the movement is doing under his leadership. How is this controversial?
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:32 PM
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I answer yes and yes. But I also think you are responsible for Trump, at least as much as I am.
I did everything in my power to stop him from being elected because I knew how this was going to go if he won. In no way am I responsible for his words or deeds. Your team embraced him, used him, and continues to use him and enable him, so now trying to claim that its not the teams fault is pretty ridiculous to say the least.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:33 PM
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Nailing down conservatism is like nailing jelly to a wall, but Russell Kirk did a pretty good job of it. We can say that modern conservatism is based on these principles. None of these principles are based on bigotry. Bigotry is and has been used by some who also believe in some of these, but also by some who donít believe in hardly any of them, like Trump and most modern Republicans.


Kirk:

First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.
Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.
Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription.
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.
Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.
Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.
Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.
Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.

They are fleshed out a little here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/1987/pdf/hl86.pdf
Excellent list- I just want to point out that the third point is that there's value in doing things the way that they've been done, AND/OR there's no point in changing things just for the sake of changing things. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Now any of those could be used as excuses to maintain or advance bigotry, but at their core, they're not bigoted or even unreasonable. I suspect that if latter-day conservatives adhered more to this list, and less to whack-job Tea Party and alt-right lists, they'd be far more respected by today's Left.
  #42  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:35 PM
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If you are still a conservative now, and your team has been and is currently enabling the buffoon 100%, and will continue to, then how are you not? You either stand with the actions of your team or you don't. This is the "having it both ways" thing. Like it or not Trump is the leader of the conservative movement and if you are on that team you share responsibility for what the movement is doing under his leadership. How is this controversial?
So I'm responsible whether I voted for him or not , even though my political beliefs predate his entry into politics? This thread is just another SDMB anti-Trump soggy cracker game. Y'all play without me.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:39 PM
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So I'm responsible whether I voted for him or not , even though my political beliefs predate his entry into politics? This thread is just another SDMB anti-Trump soggy cracker game. Y'all play without me.
I'm sorry your team embraced him, but that's not my fault. Maybe you should take it up with your team.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:44 PM
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[QUOTE=Airbeck;21753958]I'm sorry your team embraced him, but that's not my fault. Maybe you should take it up with your team.[/ hoyQUOTE]

Team? That is a rather simple-minded view of political philosophies. I do not belong to a team. I vote for candidates who least imperfectly mirror my views.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:51 PM
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I'm not without some genuine conservative philosophical underpinnings, mind if I have a go at it?

a) That you don't destroy / overthrow / abolish the existing social system or its various institutions. Instead you verify that the thing that you wish to replace it will function and has the advantages or lack of disadvanges that makes it superior to the existing ways, and then, having done so, you phase it in with minimum disruption to the dependability and reliability of everyday life.

b) That there really do exist things that are of superior quality to other things -- ideas, artistic expressions, moral codes, models of reality, whatever -- whether we can firmly say which ones they are or not. And this is important. It is totally NOT true that oh anything is as good as any other thing, there's no such thing as "quality" there's just your notion and his notion and her notion, and all such notions are just byproducts of your location in culture and time etc.

c) Human behavior is best organized around a structure of general principles, where the general principles are applied to specific situations. This does not mean there's no room or purpose for a new gut-level intuitive read on things from within a situation, but it does mean that what you do with the latter is adjust the general principles. Good ethical political and moral arguments begin with approaching a situation as an example of a general phenomenon, stripped of reference for exactly who is doing what, so that everyone is treated as equal and not accorded differential consideration based on identity-context.

d) Whatever the problems of the unalloyed free market of capitalism -- and I do consider the observations of Marxist analysis to be a fair indictment of them -- they aren't going to be fixed by a redistributive system, which, far from being a radical new notion is as old as chieftains and tribes and contains its own worrisome problems. As such, the primary political voice of the last two and a half centuries to loudly proclaim itself the antithesis of conservatism -- the marxism-inspired left -- has no substantial solutions to offer, and a real address to their legitimate charges about the ills of capitalism will have to be found elsewhere.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
I'm sorry your team embraced him, but that's not my fault. Maybe you should take it up with your team.
Team? That is a rather simple-minded view of political philosophies. I do not belong to a team. I vote for candidates who least imperfectly mirror my views.
I'm probably stating things too strongly. I'm just so disgusted by what the conservative movement has done to our country by getting behind Trump and enabling him 100% that when those that continue to identify with that side of the aisle want to side step anything to do with it it's pretty aggravating. If everyone says its not my fault and its not my responsibility to do anything about it, then we will never be out of this nightmare. I'll go ahead and drop it though, as I don't want to prevent the conversation from moving forward in the thread.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 07-16-2019 at 03:55 PM.
  #47  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:56 PM
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AHunter3: Those respectable views you call "genuine conservative" have not defined conservatism for a generation or two, though. Would you agree that the word stands for something different now, even to most who claim the name?

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 07-16-2019 at 03:56 PM.
  #48  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:59 PM
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Respectfully, this thread is dumb as all hell. Of all the conservatives on this board (granted, there aren’t many to begin with, but still...) I can think of a grand total of two, maybe three, that voted for Trump. So what’s the point of this thread? If you want answers, OP, go to a pro-Trump message board.

Fact is, the majority of conservatives here don’t equate conservative values with Trump and never will. What Trump does may coincide with conservative values or it may not, depending on what he does, but he doesn’t dictate them. Just because Trump does something doesn’t make it a conservative value.

To see how ridiculous this all is, imagine if Hillary had won. Hillary voted for the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq, even though she knew it was horseshit. If some conservative poster then started a thread asking why pre-emptive wars of aggression based on lies were a “liberal value”, what would you say? I imagine it would be something like “Just because Hillary endorsed something doesn’t make it a ‘liberal value’ by default”. And yeah, you may have opposed the war at the time, but you sure as hell weren’t distancing yourselves from her in 2016. And there were plenty of liberals stumping for her in 2008, too. Wouldn’t matter. You’d still object to that framing.

Same thing here.
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:03 PM
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Most of these definitions of "conservative" that aren't based on bigotry would lead one to conclude that the Democrats are the conservative party in America.
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:24 PM
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Still in office. An open white supremacist and he's still in office.

How is that holding him responsible?
He was elected. They canít get him out of office. They did kick him off all the important committees effectively emasculating him. He is basically persona non grata amongst Repuglicsns and is a dead man walking in terms of party support come re-election time. He was pretty thoroughly and denounced.

Compare this to the consequences heaped upon Ilhan Omar for her anti-Semitic comments. There were none.

Similarly, we could play the game where we hold up a liberal value and somebody points to the time where somebody, somewhere, or in some circumstances associated behaved in a way that we can interpret as bigoted.

Liberals denied there was a crisis on the border and then they held up funding. This underfunded immigration policy exacerbated the humanitarian crises causing immigrants to suffer. Therefore liberals hate brown people and their immigration policy is founded on bigotry.

I think thatís stupid, btw. But thatís the game the OP is playing. Itís just an excuse to shout at the other guy.
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