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  #701  
Old 01-23-2015, 04:51 PM
Shodan is online now
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Originally Posted by get lives View Post
Is this how how you talk to people at your church on Sunday?
So we have an unusual way of passing the peace. Let us not let denominational differences divide.

Regards,
Shodan
  #702  
Old 01-28-2015, 11:03 PM
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A twofer:

police arrest a SF public defender for resisting arrest because she was trying to protect her client. How it's even possible to be arrested solely for resisting arrest is besides me.

A 70 year old Seattle man was arrested for walking while black when the cop falsely claims he threatened her with a golf club when clearly no such incident was caught by the dashcam.
  #703  
Old 01-29-2015, 04:39 PM
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A twofer:

police arrest a SF public defender for resisting arrest because she was trying to protect her client. How it's even possible to be arrested solely for resisting arrest is besides me.
The newscasters were certainly on the side of the lawyer in this case.
Quote:
“If police are able to do this to a deputy public defender in front of her client, I can only imagine what is happening out on the streets.”
Certainly could have been resolved short of an arrest.
  #704  
Old 01-30-2015, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Shalmanese View Post
A twofer:

police arrest a SF public defender for resisting arrest because she was trying to protect her client. How it's even possible to be arrested solely for resisting arrest is besides me.

A 70 year old Seattle man was arrested for walking while black when the cop falsely claims he threatened her with a golf club when clearly no such incident was caught by the dashcam.
In the first case, the chief of police should resign as a show of good faith, right after firing the officer in question. The officer should also be prosecuted under Federal civil rights legislation.

In the second case, the officer should be fired and prevented from ever carrying a gun on any job again.
  #705  
Old 01-30-2015, 09:05 AM
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The newscasters were certainly on the side of the lawyer in this case.

Certainly could have been resolved short of an arrest.
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Tillotson was handcuffed to a wall in a holding cell for about an hour [and was only] released because Stansbury ... was subpoenaed to take the stand and had to leave.
I hope that non-U.S. Dopers will comment on whether such abuses are common in other countries. Thailand is notorious for police abuses, yet I know of zero such examples around where I live.
  #706  
Old 01-30-2015, 11:06 AM
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In the second case, the officer should be fired and prevented from ever carrying a gun on any job again.
The cop in the story seems like one angry person. This story discusses some social media comments she's made:
Quote:
KIRO 7 confirmed Whitlatch also posted comments on Facebook responding to a post about riots in Ferguson.

She called it “chronic black racism” and said, “I am tired of black peoples [sic] paranoia that white people are out to get them."

When Facebook user Brian Davis reacted, she calls him “another black racist.”
So, she's sick of black people's paranoia that white people are out to get them, and responds by making a completely unjustified arrest of an elderly black man. Nice going!

The cops ex-girlfriend said in an interview that:
Quote:
Whitlatch made racist comments about black people she'd encountered while on patrol in Seattle and, in the spring of 2005, stole marijuana from SPD evidence that the couple then smoked together.

<snip>

Whitlatch would arrive home, Purucker said, and say things like, "Goddamn niggers again" or "You should have seen what we did to this guy—we jacked him up."

Purucker added, "She had friends in her precinct who were black." But she said Whitlatch talked about black citizens of Seattle's East Precinct differently than she did about black police officers.

Purucker said Whitlatch and other officers (Purucker claims she went on multiple ride-alongs with her girlfriend) would joke about stopping people for "contempt of cop."
Nice!

The Seattle PD says that it doesn't believe that racial profiling or racism was involved in the old man's arrest.
1. Bullshit!

2. If it really wasn't racial profiling, then it is surely evidence of sheer incompetence or corruption (pick one).
Either way, that cop should be fired.

Last edited by mhendo; 01-30-2015 at 11:07 AM.
  #707  
Old 01-30-2015, 05:19 PM
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Anybody know the story with this clip of a bike cop macing passers-by?

http://i.imgur.com/UBYRgab.gifv
  #708  
Old 01-30-2015, 05:36 PM
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I see there's a thread about that clip in IMHO.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=747838

Smapti promptly blamed a bystander who got maced for not paying attention.
  #709  
Old 01-30-2015, 05:38 PM
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... clip of a bike cop macing passers-by?

http://i.imgur.com/UBYRgab.gifv
Again, can any Doper imagine such abuses in developed or even Tiger-status countries? (Outside a few outliers -- U.S., Russia and ?)

The people wouldn't stand for it in Thailand (though I realize there are abuses in the South, in terrorist insurrection).
  #710  
Old 02-01-2015, 01:51 PM
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Teens throwing snowballs at each other are held at gunpoint by a police officer

WTF.
  #711  
Old 02-01-2015, 04:00 PM
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I hope that non-U.S. Dopers will comment on whether such abuses are common in other countries. Thailand is notorious for police abuses, yet I know of zero such examples around where I live.
British police are not (routinely) armed but armed police are deployed on occasion and a "recent" case (begins in 2011 but is still in the news) was Mark Duggan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan

His story has many parallels with recent US events.

A young black Londoner who was probably a career criminal - his supporters deny that - and has career criminals in his wider family (but is that relevant?) was being specifically followed by armed police who suspected he was planning a major crime. Fearing he was about to start violence at any moment, armed police moved toward the vehicle he was in to arrest him and shots were fired (only by the police) and Duggan died after being shot in the arm and chest. A police officer was injured by the bullet that passed through Duggan's arm. That was August 2011.

There were lurid accounts - later rejected - from some witnesses it was an execution with Duggan held down by the police before being shot. Police insisted they thought he was reaching for a gun and indeed a gun was recovered - perhaps 6m (20 feet) from the vehicle Duggan was in. Inevitably there were accounts the police planted the gun some time later although there is no real evidence of that. But the distance of the gun is suggestive that perhaps Duggan had discarded it BEFORE being shot.

Protests started in London and then elsewhere across Britain which soon became riots and looting. Most parties (including the family of Duggan) were critical of the behaviour of the rioters and it is widely held they were simply opportunist thieves, thugs and general low life scum. Thousands were involved across Britian and they were front page news as buildings were burned - usually buildings with no particular connection to the authorities.

There were at least 1,500 convictions after the riots and it was noted most of the guilty had three or more previous convictions, at least 41% were white, most were male and most were young. There were convictions for looting from shops but also street muggings and sexual attacks.

The investigation of the shooting went slowly through the legal system and in January 2015 a verdict was finally delivered (by an 8 - 2 majority) the police were justified in shooting Duggan.

In such cases the officers involved (unless found guilty) have their identity kept secret - the officers were only, publicly, identified as V59 and W70 and so on. But in yet another twist the legal authorities have in the last few days revealed they have simply lost a CD of evidence possibly containing details such as the police (and other witnesses) identity. There is no suggestion of corruption though. This highly sensitive data was just being sent in the normal post and the package was lost...

But in very general terms the case matches the recent US case in Ferguson: Black criminal shot, riots break out, clear evidence the police weren't perfect but wild accusations against the police for which there is no evidence at all.

TCMF-2L
  #712  
Old 02-02-2015, 03:47 AM
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You missed an important police action:

Police "Dark PR" dept calls their mates in the tabloids and gets them to slander the victim.
  #713  
Old 02-02-2015, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TCMF-2L View Post
British police are not (routinely) armed but armed police are deployed on occasion and a "recent" case (begins in 2011 but is still in the news) was Mark Duggan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan

His story has many parallels with recent US events.

A young black Londoner who was probably a career criminal - his supporters deny that - and has career criminals in his wider family (but is that relevant?) was being specifically followed by armed police who suspected he was planning a major crime. Fearing he was about to start violence at any moment, armed police moved toward the vehicle he was in to arrest him and shots were fired (only by the police) and Duggan died after being shot in the arm and chest. A police officer was injured by the bullet that passed through Duggan's arm. That was August 2011.

There were lurid accounts - later rejected - from some witnesses it was an execution with Duggan held down by the police before being shot. Police insisted they thought he was reaching for a gun and indeed a gun was recovered - perhaps 6m (20 feet) from the vehicle Duggan was in. Inevitably there were accounts the police planted the gun some time later although there is no real evidence of that. But the distance of the gun is suggestive that perhaps Duggan had discarded it BEFORE being shot.

Protests started in London and then elsewhere across Britain which soon became riots and looting. Most parties (including the family of Duggan) were critical of the behaviour of the rioters and it is widely held they were simply opportunist thieves, thugs and general low life scum. Thousands were involved across Britian and they were front page news as buildings were burned - usually buildings with no particular connection to the authorities.

There were at least 1,500 convictions after the riots and it was noted most of the guilty had three or more previous convictions, at least 41% were white, most were male and most were young. There were convictions for looting from shops but also street muggings and sexual attacks.

The investigation of the shooting went slowly through the legal system and in January 2015 a verdict was finally delivered (by an 8 - 2 majority) the police were justified in shooting Duggan.

In such cases the officers involved (unless found guilty) have their identity kept secret - the officers were only, publicly, identified as V59 and W70 and so on. But in yet another twist the legal authorities have in the last few days revealed they have simply lost a CD of evidence possibly containing details such as the police (and other witnesses) identity. There is no suggestion of corruption though. This highly sensitive data was just being sent in the normal post and the package was lost...

But in very general terms the case matches the recent US case in Ferguson: Black criminal shot, riots break out, clear evidence the police weren't perfect but wild accusations against the police for which there is no evidence at all.

TCMF-2L
His death does have many parallels in that he wasn't a complete innocent, but certainly there was no attempt to claim he was shooting at the police when he was shot. Even him reaching for a gun seems far-fetched.

Do you have a cite for the bit I bolded? Because I remember things like the youg man jailed for stealing water, and he had no prior criminal record and admitted his theft but got sent to jail for six months because of the background of the riots (there was no suggestion he'd been rioting or had damaged property - it was just that his extremely trivial theft occurred during a riot).

If he got sent down for six months then the others, with criminal records, must have got sent down for far longer, but I don't recall hearing about them.

So if a third of the jailed already had criminal records, I'd be interested to see a cite for that, especially if it states what those criminal records were for.
  #714  
Old 02-02-2015, 06:47 AM
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Do you have a cite for the bit I bolded? ...
This BBC account:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17141883

Quotes "Previous figures from the government have shown that approximately 13% of those involved in the disturbances were defined as gang members and three-quarters of all those who had appeared in court had a previous conviction or caution."

This Guardian account:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/s...al-convictions

Quotes "The official statistics, released on Thursday, back up claims by the justice secretary, Kenneth Clarke, that a "hardcore of the criminal classes" were involved in the riots, with 73% of those put before the courts having previous criminal convictions – and one third of that number having served a prison sentence before.

Those with criminal records have an average of 15 offences each. Overall, 26% had served time in prison previously.
"

The statistics were widely reported although that could be "Dark PR". However both the "Establishment" (pro-police) and the Duggan supporters have condemned the actions of the rioters. Both sides appear to agree the rioters were no more than opportunist criminals latching on to concerns over the Duggan affair.

TCMF-2L
  #715  
Old 02-02-2015, 07:06 AM
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A 70 year old Seattle man was arrested for walking while black when the cop falsely claims he threatened her with a golf club when clearly no such incident was caught by the dashcam.
The arresting officer has been reassigned to desk duty:
Quote:
In a written statement Thursday, [Police Chief] O'Toole said she was "shocked and disappointed" on Wednesday to read Whitlatch's comments. She reassigned the officer to desk duty, where she would have no interaction with the public, pending a review of her cases, and asked the Office of Professional Accountability to launch an independent investigation.
http://huff.to/1JU87Ef
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Last edited by Fear Itself; 02-02-2015 at 07:07 AM.
  #716  
Old 02-02-2015, 07:34 AM
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The exact quote I used previously "it was noted most of the guilty had three or more previous convictions" which I am CERTAIN I saw somewhere is proving elusive to find so I will withdraw it rather than try to defend a weak position.

However here are the bald, official Government statistics on the rioting which seem the most reliable to use:

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06099.pdf

They quote in part

• 71% of adult males facing prosecution had at least one previous conviction compared to 28% of the general male population aged 18-52;

• 45% of males aged 10-17 facing prosecution had at least one previous conviction compared to 2% of the general male population aged 10-17.

But as noted the riots became a little "all purpose" and there were plenty of headline grabbing middle class and supposedly "respectable" people arrested included females. The Daily Mail mentions some of those cases in their report:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nvictions.html

Quote: Despite the fact that most rioters have now been shown to have been experienced criminals, media attention focussed on more unlikely middle-class looters. Among the first rioters to go through the courts were former grammar-school student Laura Johnson and aspiring social worker Natasha Reid, as well as a lifeguard, an organic chef and a Baptist Church mentor to young people.

Note this account begins with

Quote: A quarter of those charged with involvement in the riots which swept English cities this summer had more than 10 prior convictions. And three in four of those who appeared in court over rioting had previously had at least one caution or conviction, according to Ministry of Justice figures.

TCMF-2L
  #717  
Old 02-02-2015, 07:57 AM
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Not exactly.

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/crime/....2099426#bmb=1
  #718  
Old 02-02-2015, 08:03 AM
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I would also add that I mentioned the Duggan London, UK shooting to show the comparisons with (most specifically) the Brown shooting in Ferguson, USA.

Duggan was black (mixed race but dark skinned?) and both "sides" will claim race was a factor.

There are those who will highlight Police racism (which in the UK will mean mentioning the Lawrence case where a young black man was randomly murdered in the street by passing racist white thugs and the police bungled the investigation.)

However, just as in the USA, there is a lot of violent black on black crime in the UK. Indeed ironically (is that the correct word here?) Duggan was being followed by the "Operation Trident" police who are specifically trying to combat organised drug crime, gun crime and they have an emphasis on Black on Black crime.

Next up comes Duggan's criminality. Opinions here range from his family claiming he had no convictions, that he was a hard working family man and upstanding member of the community.

The middle ground has accusations of fecklessness (multiple children by multiple mothers), previous convictions for drugs and theft and also arrests (but crucially no charges) for serious offences including murder. Plus he had family and friends with established criminal records and photographs were released showing him posing with convicted murderers.

The other extreme has Duggan as a high level drug dealer, a crime boss who - on the day he was shot - was on the way to execute someone to avenge the murder of a cousin.

Just like Brown has been described as anything from an innocent High School child to a hulking violent mountain of a man.

The exact details of the incident are vague. As with Brown there are reports of a deliberate and completely unnecessary police execution. But the most likely truth is he did have a gun in his possession in the moments BEFORE he was shot. More importantly the police believed he had a gun which will have obviously shaped their attitudes and actions. But what happened in the moment of his death? Who knows? Those who were there are not believed.

Like with Brown, Duggan's death led to demonstrations which were highjacked and used as a springboard by opportunists for personal gain.

For me the interest is the similarities in the cases.

TCMF-2L
  #719  
Old 02-03-2015, 07:37 PM
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Let's compare and contrast, shall we?

11-year-old girl shoots home invader with a shotgun

11-year-old girl pinned to the floor and held at gunpoint by police officers entering a home without permission
  #720  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:13 PM
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Are you assuming the cops' version is the more accurate version? Because cops are known to lie to protect themselves. Would you like some cites on that claim I just made?
  #721  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:41 PM
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Are you assuming the cops' version is the more accurate version? Because cops are known to lie to protect themselves. Would you like some cites on that claim I just made?
The 911 calls that sent them there are all taped.
  #722  
Old 02-04-2015, 03:35 AM
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I hope that non-U.S. Dopers will comment on whether such abuses are common in other countries. Thailand is notorious for police abuses, yet I know of zero such examples around where I live.
There are definitely abuses of power everywhere you go. A fairly notorious example from Australia is the Aboriginal Deaths in Custody scandal, which has been going on for a number of decades now.

However, my impression - and it is just an impression - is that the level of untouchability of American police officers is much much higher. When I hear about the police acting badly here, it typically seems to be while tucked away in the safety of their own police stations, not out in the street, and the mentality is more "hey, nobody's ever going to know" rather than "well if they do know, who cares, who are the courts going to believe out of us and you?"

Here's a recent example. None of the police officers concerned got away with their behaviour in this case.
  #723  
Old 02-04-2015, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TCMF-2L View Post
The exact quote I used previously "it was noted most of the guilty had three or more previous convictions" which I am CERTAIN I saw somewhere is proving elusive to find so I will withdraw it rather than try to defend a weak position.

However here are the bald, official Government statistics on the rioting which seem the most reliable to use:

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06099.pdf

They quote in part

• 71% of adult males facing prosecution had at least one previous conviction compared to 28% of the general male population aged 18-52;

• 45% of males aged 10-17 facing prosecution had at least one previous conviction compared to 2% of the general male population aged 10-17.

But as noted the riots became a little "all purpose" and there were plenty of headline grabbing middle class and supposedly "respectable" people arrested included females. The Daily Mail mentions some of those cases in their report:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nvictions.html

Quote: Despite the fact that most rioters have now been shown to have been experienced criminals, media attention focussed on more unlikely middle-class looters. Among the first rioters to go through the courts were former grammar-school student Laura Johnson and aspiring social worker Natasha Reid, as well as a lifeguard, an organic chef and a Baptist Church mentor to young people.

Note this account begins with

Quote: A quarter of those charged with involvement in the riots which swept English cities this summer had more than 10 prior convictions. And three in four of those who appeared in court over rioting had previously had at least one caution or conviction, according to Ministry of Justice figures.

TCMF-2L
I'm not going to insist on a specific cite to back up your original assertion because even though it's not quite true it's closer to true than I had thought.

I wonder why the courts bothered to sentence people like the bottle boy, then? If they had so many real known criminals to deal with and make an example of, why ruin the life of this boy? It's a really unusually long sentence for such a minor crime for a first offender, one that he admitted (which usually helps), and there's no evidence he was involved in anything else in the riots.

And I do suspect his life has been ruined or substantially damaged; it's extremely hard to get a job in the UK if you have a criminal record and his sentence means his won't be exunged for several years - and then it will still show up on CRB checks that are used for such mundance jobs as call centre work as well as work with children.

There definitely are some similarities, ike you said before. But I think part of the cause of the riots was the new ConDem govt putting a lot of changes in place which disproportionately affected young people, like getting rid of EMA. It wasn't just people taking the chance to smash things up; if that was all that was needed, then it would be happening every weekend.

Also, Mark Duggan's shooting was extremely unusual. Per capita shooting of civilians by police are way lower in the UK. I mean, the armed police who responded didn't even shoot the bastards who decapitated the soldier in Woolwich, refusing to make martyrs of them like they wanted.
  #724  
Old 02-04-2015, 07:25 AM
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Channel 9 found Officers James Festa and John Rigdon have been with the department for three years, and both have been disciplined several times, according to their personnel files.
Festa was reprimanded in December for botching a child abuse investigation. He was also been suspended in 2013 for sleeping on the job.
Rigdon was suspended in May and demoted in 2013 from corporal. He was also reprimanded in 2011. Each punishment was the result of allegedly filing false police reports.
Now that's job security!
  #725  
Old 02-04-2015, 07:43 AM
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Now that's job security!
Now, to be fair, their wrists are probably red and sore from all the slaps.
  #726  
Old 02-04-2015, 09:01 AM
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There seems to be an epidemic of cop-on-cop violence:

Florida cops accused of attacking ex-NYPD officer helping her son


And for the money quote:

"“NYPD, I know my rights,” Aquino says while laying facedown in a grassy area.

“We’re a little different in Florida,” one deputy replies."

Last edited by Sinaptics; 02-04-2015 at 09:02 AM. Reason: Fixed formatting
  #727  
Old 02-04-2015, 09:37 AM
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I wonder why the courts bothered to sentence people like the bottle boy, then? If they had so many real known criminals to deal with and make an example of, why ruin the life of this boy? It's a really unusually long sentence for such a minor crime for a first offender, one that he admitted (which usually helps), and there's no evidence he was involved in anything else in the riots.
Short answer to set an example to discourage others from doing the same.

This article [ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...d-7855273.html ] has one of the magistrates specifically confirming that:

"Mr Ikram, who sits at Camberwell Green magistrates' court ... told an audience of Londoners that the "clear signal" sent out by judges helped quell the gratuitous violence."

He notes that most of the appeals against sentences failed which, arguably, justified the original sentencing.

The first article notes quite a few cases (including your bottle boy) who had harsh sentences for minor offences. This article [ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...WERE-fair.html ] notes how several appeals against sentencing failed.

I think the establishment are (still) always aware of the Broadwater Farm Estate (Inner City - North London) riot of 1985. A black woman, Cynthia Jarrett, died (of natural causes - heart failure) during a police search of her home. They had arrested her son on suspicion of various crimes. He was later cleared of them all.

In the riots which erupted later a policeman - Keith Blakelock - was caught by a mob, attacked, murdered and almost beheaded. No one has ever been successfully convicted of the crime. Winston Silcott was initially convicted but after a few years freed on appeal. Keith Blakelock is still a byword for abhorrent and totally unacceptable violence against the police.

Britain is used to public order disturbances and violence but when people start rioting to the extent people die [ 5 deaths links to the Duggan disturbances ] something is done about it.

Plus there was the sheer, cynical opportunism in the Duggan Riots. Most of the rioters had zero interest in the Duggan case.

TCMF-2L

Last edited by TCMF-2L; 02-04-2015 at 09:39 AM. Reason: Improving text.
  #728  
Old 02-04-2015, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by TCMF-2L View Post
.

Britain is used to public order disturbances and violence but when people start rioting to the extent people die something is done about it.
I guess convicting people for murder, despite the fact they weren't there, is "something"
  #729  
Old 02-04-2015, 11:22 AM
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“We’re a little different in Florida,” one deputy replies."
There's Florida's state motto right there. It should be written across the top of the state seal.

At the bottom, it would say:

(and not in a good way.)
  #730  
Old 02-04-2015, 12:58 PM
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I guess convicting people for murder, despite the fact they weren't there, is "something"
Is that a reference to good old Winston Silcott? He's an interesting case.

In 1979 he had just served 6 months for stabbing a man. Then he was twice tried for the murder of a musician. First trial failed to reach a verdict, second trial acquitted him. The victim, by the way, was stabbed.

Then, after another successful conviction for possessing an illegal flick knife, he was next put on trial for the murder of a man at a party. A man murdered by stabbing. That was 1984. Winston eventually, after first insisting it was just a fist fight, admitted the stabbing but claimed it was self defence. Witnesses had him handing over the knife to a friend and saying "He (the victim) deserved it."

Then comes along the Broadwater Farm riots in 1985 and the rare occurrence of a British policeman knifed to death. Local 'face' Winston, just out of jail on bail for the party murder, with repeated convictions for knife related offences as well as the murder fitted the bill. The police were soon onto him and eventually he was convicted.

Was it a "clean" investigation and "safe" conviction? Absolutely no. But British justice prevailed (for Winston) who got the PC Blakemore murder conviction overturned (although he remained in jail for the earlier murder) and he also, eventually, got a tasty pay out of compensation. £60,000 which was four times the amount the widow of the dead policeman got. It was just £15,000 for the widow and the three sons.

Since his release Winston has both worked with the police to try and reduce violent crime but has also continued to clock up convictions. Usually for shoplifting.

Was the convicted murderer not at Broadwater Farm during the riots? I wasn't there so couldn't be as certain as you. He denies being there. But he would, wouldn't he?

Others suggest he was there. But who are you to believe?

TCMF-2L
  #731  
Old 02-04-2015, 01:26 PM
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Short answer to set an example to discourage others from doing the same.

This article [ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...d-7855273.html ] has one of the magistrates specifically confirming that:

"Mr Ikram, who sits at Camberwell Green magistrates' court ... told an audience of Londoners that the "clear signal" sent out by judges helped quell the gratuitous violence."

He notes that most of the appeals against sentences failed which, arguably, justified the original sentencing.

The first article notes quite a few cases (including your bottle boy) who had harsh sentences for minor offences. This article [ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...WERE-fair.html ] notes how several appeals against sentencing failed.

I think the establishment are (still) always aware of the Broadwater Farm Estate (Inner City - North London) riot of 1985. A black woman, Cynthia Jarrett, died (of natural causes - heart failure) during a police search of her home. They had arrested her son on suspicion of various crimes. He was later cleared of them all.

In the riots which erupted later a policeman - Keith Blakelock - was caught by a mob, attacked, murdered and almost beheaded. No one has ever been successfully convicted of the crime. Winston Silcott was initially convicted but after a few years freed on appeal. Keith Blakelock is still a byword for abhorrent and totally unacceptable violence against the police.

Britain is used to public order disturbances and violence but when people start rioting to the extent people die [ 5 deaths links to the Duggan disturbances ] something is done about it.

Plus there was the sheer, cynical opportunism in the Duggan Riots. Most of the rioters had zero interest in the Duggan case.

TCMF-2L
I did mention "making an example of" in my post. I do not think a man with no criminal record and on such a minor charge is a great target for "making an example of." When part of the reason for the riots was distrust of the legal system (really, if it was just "Yay, riots! It would happen more often than twice in thirty years) it doesn't do the legal system any favours when it demonstrates that yes, it's true, they can't be trusted.

His sentence was longer than many rape sentences, ffs.

I assume the other poster is referring to joint enterprise, which genuinely has resulted in people being sent to prison for crimes that they didn't take part in. It's intended as a tool against gang violence but some of the cases beggar belief.
  #732  
Old 02-04-2015, 01:57 PM
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The 911 calls that sent them there are all taped.
...the 911 call showed that a snowfight didn't happen? They must have impressive telephones in that district.
  #733  
Old 02-04-2015, 03:18 PM
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• 71% of adult males facing prosecution had at least one previous conviction compared to 28% of the general male population aged 18-52;

•
OK, I didn't read through the pdf, but does the bolded part mean that 28% of all males (age 18-52) in England have at least one previous conviction? That seems extraordinarily high. What I can find for the US is 8.6%. http://paa2011.princeton.edu/papers/111687
  #734  
Old 02-04-2015, 03:36 PM
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OK, I didn't read through the pdf, but does the bolded part mean that 28% of all males (age 18-52) in England have at least one previous conviction? That seems extraordinarily high. What I can find for the US is 8.6%. http://paa2011.princeton.edu/papers/111687
I think it means 28% of all males facing prosecution, not all males in general. Makes sense given the number of repeat offenders.
  #735  
Old 02-04-2015, 03:49 PM
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Actually, I'm wrong. A quick Google shows that the percentage above is right, remarkably. But it does include extremely minor crimes and crimes from many years ago, including those committed as a child.

That article mentions what I was talking about above, with how badly that young man's life will be affected. Not all criminal records have equal effect, but such a long sentence, and the connection to rioting, will make him look really bad. He'll never be able to work in a job with children or elderly or disabled people and never have any responsibility for money. That doesn't leave many jobs.

Link: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...s-8475601.html
  #736  
Old 02-04-2015, 04:01 PM
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OK, I didn't read through the pdf, but does the bolded part mean that 28% of all males (age 18-52) in England have at least one previous conviction? That seems extraordinarily high. What I can find for the US is 8.6%. http://paa2011.princeton.edu/papers/111687
If you read this official UK Government document from 2011 [ https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...s-bulletin.pdf ] the eye popping statistics are:

For England and Wales (ignoring the Scots and Irish who are probably a bad influence):

15 per cent of people between the ages of 10 and 52 in England and Wales in 2006 are estimated to have had at least one conviction for a standard list1 offence. The equivalent figure for males is 24 per cent and for females 6 per cent.

33 per cent of males born in 1953 had been convicted of at least one standard list offence before the age of 53. Just over half of these had been convicted on only one occasion and 18 per cent had been convicted more than 5 times.

9 per cent of females born in 1953 had been convicted of at least one standard list offence before the age of 53. Three-quarters of these had been convicted on only one occasion and 5 per cent had been convicted more than 5 times.


The study notes "only a few" males had more than 20 convictions!

It also notes that since the 1980s there has been an increasing use of Police Cautions so the number of recorded crimes is dropping.

TCMF-2L
  #737  
Old 02-04-2015, 05:08 PM
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That article mentions what I was talking about above, with how badly that young man's life will be affected. Not all criminal records have equal effect, but such a long sentence, and the connection to rioting, will make him look really bad. He'll never be able to work in a job with children or elderly or disabled people and never have any responsibility for money. That doesn't leave many jobs.
My emphasis added.

SciFiSam

For the record I think some of the Duggan Riot sentencing was too draconian.

However, while clearly having a criminal record will be a burden and will possibly be an insurmountable burden, it isn't an absolute bar to working with children, elderly or disabled. Only sex crimes would do that. Which is a good thing I think.

Also it isn't a bar to working in finance although some roles would be excluded. Most of these issues can (in theory) be negotiated during interview.

https://www.nacro.org.uk/what-we-do/...,1636,NAP.html

TCMF-2L
  #738  
Old 02-04-2015, 10:45 PM
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Has this one been discussed yet?

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/arc...le-while-black

Un fucking believable
  #739  
Old 02-05-2015, 05:27 AM
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Has this one been discussed yet?

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/arc...le-while-black

Un fucking believable
See my post #702 .
  #740  
Old 02-05-2015, 06:03 AM
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I'm not sure how well it fits, but I thought to leave a link to an old thread I started in 2009.

Tennessee state trooper fowards a racist email to all his co-workers, get suspended for 15 days

I updated it last year when I got curious on what happened to the cop. Wasn't too surprised by what I found.
  #741  
Old 02-05-2015, 07:35 AM
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Some good news:

Video-recorded arrest gets NYPD cop indicated on assault charges
  #742  
Old 02-06-2015, 02:03 AM
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TSA supervisor has man arrested, apparently lies under oath. [url=http://boingboing.net/2015/02/04/philly-tsa-supervisor-charles.html]Short account[/ulr]. Longer account. Apparently the man asked for a complaint form. Surveillance tape appears to conflict with report by TSA supervisor.


I don't know what to make of all this crap, except that methinks police work should have low job security. Generous pay, but low job security.
  #743  
Old 02-06-2015, 04:34 AM
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My emphasis added.

SciFiSam

For the record I think some of the Duggan Riot sentencing was too draconian.

However, while clearly having a criminal record will be a burden and will possibly be an insurmountable burden, it isn't an absolute bar to working with children, elderly or disabled. Only sex crimes would do that. Which is a good thing I think.

Also it isn't a bar to working in finance although some roles would be excluded. Most of these issues can (in theory) be negotiated during interview.

https://www.nacro.org.uk/what-we-do/...,1636,NAP.html

TCMF-2L
If his crime had got a shorter sentence, I'd agree with you (usually it would only get a caution, for a first offence so minor, which would show up on a CRB check but would be unlikely to cause problems). But six months makes it look like a really serious theft, because theft usually doesn't get such sentences, and on your link the regulations do take length of sentence into account.

They also take length of time since the crime into account, so he'll be better off in several years' time. But that's a long time where a huge number of fields of work are barred - I didn't even mention most of the fields of work that are included on that page; it basically lists most major sectors of the economy. Even retail is included. Voluntary work is also included.

He'll also have to declare his criminal record for any job or volunteer role for two and a half years.

I really do think that, given that those jobs will have plenty of applicants without such a record, he'll be in an extremely difficult position regarding getting work. Especially since he's young enough (and was a student) that he probably doesn't have a ton of experience prior to the conviction.

Sometimes a criminal record doesn't stand in your way that much; a record for possession of pot probably wouldn't be a big deal for most jobs. Having a caution for theft probably wouldn't be a big deal except for the financial industry. Having a six-month-long sentence is harder to get past.

It also means you've spent months (probably three) in prison, which isn't pleasant for anyone, but even less so for someone who wasn't a hardcase to begin with, so he might well come out of prison less employable as a person than when he went in.

Note that all this stuff comes up on application, not after you've been offered the role.
  #744  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:14 AM
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I don't know what to make of all this crap, except that methinks police work should have low job security. Generous pay, but low job security.
Police unions wouldn't easily allow this...and those unions are crazy strong.

What we need are citizen review panels for police misconduct, set up like jury duty.

We also need MRI scans for prospective (and current) officers, to weed out those with poor empathy and low impulse control. I bet this will become a real thing within 10 years.
  #745  
Old 02-06-2015, 09:56 AM
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I bet this will become a real thing within 10 years.
Right after the same thing is mandated for Judges and prison guards.
  #746  
Old 02-06-2015, 10:48 AM
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Police unions wouldn't easily allow this...and those unions are crazy strong.

What we need are citizen review panels for police misconduct, set up like jury duty.
Those "crazy strong" police unions are, in many jurisdictions, also doing everything possible avoid any sort of citizen oversight.
  #747  
Old 02-06-2015, 01:20 PM
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Right after the same thing is mandated for Judges and prison guards.
And DAs.
  #748  
Old 02-06-2015, 01:26 PM
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Those "crazy strong" police unions are, in many jurisdictions, also doing everything possible avoid any sort of citizen oversight.
Which is proof they NEED it, hmm?
  #749  
Old 02-06-2015, 04:09 PM
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The 911 calls that sent them there are all taped.
So they claim, I wonder why they're not releasing it.
  #750  
Old 02-07-2015, 01:09 PM
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Today's episode of This American Life on NPR is relevant.
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