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  #3151  
Old 05-31-2015, 09:01 AM
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If you think that the police are agreeing between themselves to mistreat black people, and that judges and prosecutors are agreeing to let them off, that is literally a conspiracy theory.
I don't believe that. I believe that most of the mistreatment is due to racism and unfair treatment (including at the institutional levels, that Richard Parker mentions) that the actors are not even aware of.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-31-2015 at 09:03 AM.
  #3153  
Old 05-31-2015, 08:55 PM
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Where do you get that his death was caused by negligence or maliciousness, rather than proper procedure and/or necessary force?
  #3154  
Old 05-31-2015, 09:03 PM
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Where do you get that his death was caused by negligence or maliciousness, rather than proper procedure and/or necessary force?
Are you fucking stupid or just a run of the mill racist asshole?
Quote:
The report says several officers remained wholly or partly on top of Minjarez after his hands and legs were cuffed, and he repeatedly said he couldn't breathe.
His hands and legs were cuffed, so in what universe do several officers have to be wholly or on top of him? How the fuck is this proper procedure and necessary force? Jesus Titty Fucking Christ you are one fucking miserable worthless piece of shit.
  #3155  
Old 05-31-2015, 09:18 PM
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Odd that the people who've seen the actual evidence disagree with you. I'll ask again, what actual reason do you have for thinking it was malicious or negligent? Not baseless speculation, actual reasoning.

His arms and legs were cuffed. So? Doesn't mean he wasn't struggling. Especially as he was on cocaine when he was arrested.

As for racism, I've no idea what colour the guy was, and unless you've read a story other than the ones cited, neither have you.
  #3156  
Old 05-31-2015, 09:27 PM
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Did you fucking read the link within the linked story? http://www.theadvertiser.com/story/n...eath/28075855/

Quote:
His upper body was on the street, his hips and legs were on the sidewalk, the report states. At least three or four officers remained on top of or partially on top of Minjarez while he lay face down, his hands and legs cuffed.

For about five minutes, Minjarez is heard on audio from the dash cams screaming, "Help, help. Help me. Get off. You're going to kill me," the coroner's report states. He continues, "You're going to suffocate..." and "I can't breathe" three times. He cried and screamed, his voice becoming "increasingly muffled, hoarse and strained" while repeating "I can't breathe."

Around five minutes into the restraint, he groans and gurgles and an officer said "You got 265 pounds on your back, you're not going anywhere." He "is heard to make an agonal groan and no more sounds are heard from him," the report states.
If you don't think that is excessive force then you're nuts.
  #3157  
Old 05-31-2015, 09:58 PM
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So, you think the Grand Jury weren't given that particular bit of information, then? Or are they nuts as well?

Or, just possibly, have you got no fucking idea what you're talking about? That's a more likely explanation.
  #3158  
Old 06-01-2015, 12:12 AM
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Are you fucking stupid or just a run of the mill racist asshole?
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As for racism, I've no idea what colour the guy was ...
So, just a run of the mill asshole. Not even an interesting asshole, just some nugget-crusted ring. I mean look at what he has been doing all over this thread. He makes adaher look like some kind of rocket surgeon.
  #3159  
Old 06-01-2015, 02:14 AM
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So, just a run of the mill asshole. Not even an interesting asshole, just some nugget-crusted ring.
He's the long-lost twin brother of the Black Knight, who so bravely guarded the bridge against all who would pass, when Arthur, King of the Britons, travelled the length and breadth of England in search of the Holy Grail.

Be careful or he'll bite your legs off.
  #3160  
Old 06-01-2015, 03:36 AM
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Not a good family movie, too much Saxon violence.
  #3161  
Old 06-01-2015, 04:09 AM
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Public defender discovers Orange County (Ca.) police and prosecutors office colluding to set up jail-house snitches (the better to railroad defendants) then cover up the fact that they set it up. (Article describes what that's all about.) It's been going on since forever and everyone knew it and everyone knew that everyone knew it. What's new is that the public defender actually managed to document it in a way that the judge couldn't ignore.

Judge was pissed, and ordered the entire Orange County prosecutors office (all 250 prosecutors there) off the case. (It was the penalty phase for a multiple murderer who had already pleaded guilty.)

Article hints that the actions might rise to the level of perjury and obstruction of justice on the part of the prosecutors who were on this case. But doesn't give any explanation why it doesn't certainly rise to the level of perjury and obstruction.

You’re All Out A defense attorney uncovers a brazen scheme to manipulate evidence, and prosecutors and police finally get caught, Dahlia Lithwick, Slate, May 28, 2015.
Quote:
Prosecutorial and police misconduct are often dismissed as just a few bad apples doing a few bad apple-ish things. But what happens when it’s entrenched and systemic and goes unchecked for years? That looks to be the case in Orange County, California, where the situation got so completely out of hand this spring that Superior Court Judge Thomas Goethals issued an order disqualifying the entire Orange County District Attorney’s Office (that’s all 250 prosecutors) from continuing to prosecute a major death penalty case.
(Article includes photo of judge listening to arguments. Worth a look just to see the expression on his face!)
  #3162  
Old 06-01-2015, 04:46 AM
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So, just a run of the mill asshole. Not even an interesting asshole, just some nugget-crusted ring. I mean look at what he has been doing all over this thread. He makes adaher look like some kind of rocket surgeon.
Steophan's comprehension of the world is so simplistic, it thinks non-prosecutability equates with innocence. I suppose it thinks Al Capone was a law-abiding citizen who just made a mistake on his taxes.
  #3163  
Old 06-01-2015, 04:53 AM
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Steophan's comprehension of the world is so simplistic, it thinks ... it ....
Oops. My choice of personal pronoun may seem rude. I guess my subconscious assumes Steophan and Smapti must be bots programmed to imitate rednecks with defective cognition.
  #3164  
Old 06-01-2015, 05:11 AM
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Not a good family movie, too much Saxon violence.
True, but for those with discerning minds who can send the children out of the room, it illustrates the power of a small mind's denial. Steophan learned everything he knows from his Black Knight twin.
  #3165  
Old 06-01-2015, 10:55 AM
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Meanwhile, back in Baltimore: a ball biting cop.

Seems an off-duty cop was repeatedly hitting on a woman at a bar, and her fellow repeatedly asked the cop to stop. in an alley the cop jumped the fellow, but got his ass kicked, so he bit the guy's nuts while the guy was sitting on him. With such high quality officer on the force, it's no wonder that Baltimore is not a safe place.

Last edited by Muffin; 06-01-2015 at 10:55 AM.
  #3166  
Old 06-01-2015, 11:12 AM
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Sitting on him? That's obviously an excessive use of force.
  #3167  
Old 06-01-2015, 11:20 AM
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Meanwhile, back in Baltimore: a ball biting cop.

Seems an off-duty cop was repeatedly hitting on a woman at a bar, and her fellow repeatedly asked the cop to stop. in an alley the cop jumped the fellow, but got his ass kicked, so he bit the guy's nuts while the guy was sitting on him. With such high quality officer on the force, it's no wonder that Baltimore is not a safe place.
Nitpick.

The cop was a member of the Anne Arundel County police force. Anne Arundel is a county due south of Baltimore, along the western shore of the Chesapeake, and includes the city of Annapolis. It's a separate entity from Baltimore City.
  #3168  
Old 06-01-2015, 12:06 PM
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Public defender discovers Orange County (Ca.) police and prosecutors office colluding to set up jail-house snitches (the better to railroad defendants) then cover up the fact that they set it up...(Article includes photo of judge listening to arguments. Worth a look just to see the expression on his face!)
The collusion and cooperation between prosecutors and police is almost another story, but almost the same story. Just for starters, we need to make sure that potential jurors are made aware of the truly wretched record, how many times the accused has suddenly and sincerely opened up and confessed the whole crime to some asshole in the cell next to him. With astonishingly precise details.

I saw the same article, but debated whether or not to post it here in this thread. If this sort of hand in glove behavior is typical...well, fuck! Not so much a question of how many people in our prisons are innocent, but how many could not have been convicted without such bullshit procedures. As well as how many jailhouse informants are getting a pass on crimes they actually committed.

Its rotten. The only questions are how rotten, how deep, and how long.
  #3169  
Old 06-01-2015, 12:12 PM
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Sitting on him? That's obviously an excessive use of force.
It should be obvious, but I'll be glad to help your widely scattered brain cells comprehend this. In one instance, a citizen was handcuffed and legcuffed with several cops on top of him, murdering him by suffocation. In the other case, a citizen was assaulted by a cop and outfought him, winding up on top of him and the cop was neither handcuffed nor legcuffed and the cop was not harmed.
  #3170  
Old 06-01-2015, 12:19 PM
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One thing I've learned in this thread is that police are held to a much lower standard than civilians. At least by some folks.
  #3171  
Old 06-01-2015, 12:23 PM
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These "standards" of which you speak......
  #3172  
Old 06-01-2015, 12:33 PM
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It should be obvious, but I'll be glad to help your widely scattered brain cells comprehend this. In one instance, a citizen was handcuffed and legcuffed with several cops on top of him, murdering him by suffocation. In the other case, a citizen was assaulted by a cop and outfought him, winding up on top of him and the cop was neither handcuffed nor legcuffed and the cop was not harmed.
In once case, someone was fighting, and was sat on as a means of restraining them. In the other, someone was fighting, and was sat on as a means of restraining them. Same thing. With one exception - the cops were doing their job when restraining him, unlike the other guy. Both, however, did what seems to have been necessary at the time.
  #3173  
Old 06-01-2015, 01:34 PM
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In once case, someone was fighting, and was sat on as a means of restraining them. In the other, someone was fighting, and was sat on as a means of restraining them. Same thing. With one exception - the cops were doing their job when restraining him, unlike the other guy. Both, however, did what seems to have been necessary at the time.
If he was cuffed at the legs and hands and on his face, why did they need to sit on him? Were they afraid he'd flop away?
  #3174  
Old 06-01-2015, 01:35 PM
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In once case, someone was fighting, and was sat on as a means of restraining them. In the other, someone was fighting, and was sat on as a means of restraining them. Same thing. With one exception - the cops were doing their job when restraining him, unlike the other guy. Both, however, did what seems to have been necessary at the time.
Can you explain why it's necessary to sit on a man who is handcuffed and legcuffed? What threat does he pose in that situation? Have you ever tried to breathe when you're lying face down with a 265 lb man sitting on your back? Nothing about that sets off your brutality alarm? Or don't you have one, you just paraphrase Nixon and postulate that if the cops do it, it's legal?
  #3175  
Old 06-01-2015, 02:46 PM
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Just came across this one:

Denver Sheriff Whistleblower: ’I Was Ordered To Destroy Videotape’

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CBS4 has learned that an internal investigation is underway into the interim head of the Denver Sheriff Department, Elias Diggins, and the captain in charge of the Denver Sheriff’s Internal Affairs Bureau after an internal affairs investigator blew the whistle, saying he was ordered to destroy a videotape that showed an inmate being humiliated and degraded.
Seems very much in the initial stages at this point. Plaintiff seems very sure his allegations can be backed up, so maybe something will come of it.
  #3176  
Old 06-01-2015, 03:17 PM
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Can you explain why it's necessary to sit on a man who is handcuffed and legcuffed? What threat does he pose in that situation? Have you ever tried to breathe when you're lying face down with a 265 lb man sitting on your back? Nothing about that sets off your brutality alarm? Or don't you have one, you just paraphrase Nixon and postulate that if the cops do it, it's legal?
What threat does a man who's shown he's violent, is known to be high on cocaine, is continuing to resist, and is able to both kick and headbutt, at minimum, the police? Are you fucking serious?

And I'm not saying if the cops do it it's legal, I'm saying that it's been investigated, and members of the public who saw the evidence found no probable cause of wrongdoing. I see no reason to disagree.

What makes you think he was no threat to the police?
  #3177  
Old 06-01-2015, 03:28 PM
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in an alley the cop jumped the fellow, but got his ass kicked, so he bit the guy's nuts while the guy was sitting on him. With such high quality officer on the force, it's no wonder that Baltimore is not a safe place.
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Can you explain why it's necessary to sit on a man who is handcuffed and legcuffed? What threat does he pose in that situation?
Well, there you have it. When a cop sits on a civilian, the cop is in the wrong.

And when a civilian sits on a cop, the cop is still in the wrong.
  #3178  
Old 06-01-2015, 03:35 PM
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Well, there you have it. When a cop sits on a civilian, the cop is in the wrong.
Of course, you conveniently leave out that, in the instance you're referring to, the civilian in question was already cuffed. That's important, no?
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And when a civilian sits on a cop, the cop is still in the wrong.
The civilian in the Baltimore case was not really sitting on a cop; he was sitting on a drunk and aggressive civilian who had just assaulted him in a public place. They didn't find out until later that the drunk asshole was also a cop.
  #3179  
Old 06-01-2015, 03:45 PM
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That's important, no?
No. No it really, really isn't, unless your agenda is to show that the cops must have been doing something wrong, despite the fact that the evidence doesn't show that.

Can someone please explain what, exactly, is wrong with the police continuing to restrain someone that, despite being cuffed, continued to resist?
  #3180  
Old 06-01-2015, 04:07 PM
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Can someone please explain what, exactly, is wrong with the police continuing to restrain someone that, despite being cuffed, continued to resist?
Once you have a guy in handcuffs and leg cuffs, you risk almost nothing by getting off of him when he claims the weight on his back is suffocating him. Maybe there's some tiny risk to officer safety posed by a guy who is on the ground with all of his limbs cuffed, but that tiny risk does not justify the exponentially higher risk of killing the man. Hence, unreasonable use of force.
  #3181  
Old 06-01-2015, 04:09 PM
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Well, there you have it. When a cop sits on a civilian, the cop is in the wrong.

And when a civilian sits on a cop, the cop is still in the wrong.
You and I come from very different backgrounds. Where I come from, attacking a person and then biting his nuts is a crime, and there is no exception just because it is a cop who was the attacker/biter.

Last edited by Muffin; 06-01-2015 at 04:11 PM.
  #3182  
Old 06-01-2015, 04:43 PM
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No. No it really, really isn't, unless your agenda is to show that the cops must have been doing something wrong, despite the fact that the evidence doesn't show that.

Can someone please explain what, exactly, is wrong with the police continuing to restrain someone that, despite being cuffed, continued to resist?
Was there no other way to restrain him?
  #3183  
Old 06-01-2015, 04:50 PM
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Was there no other way to restrain him?
If hand and leg cuffs weren't working, then I'm not sure of one that doesn't put the police at risk. Getting too close to the head or feet would risk biting, headbutting, or kicking.

How would you restrain someone who, despite being cuffed, remained violent? Bear in mind that he was on drugs that could very well have meant he didn't feel, or didn't care about, pain, so things like tasers are unlikely to work.

I guess you could have as many cops as it takes each grabbing an arm or leg or whatever, but I'm not convinced that doing that would be less likely to harm the suspect than sitting on him, assuming he continues to thrash around, kick out, and generally resist.
  #3184  
Old 06-01-2015, 04:52 PM
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So, today I learned never to say "Bite me!"in Maryland. Never been, never going, never mind.
  #3185  
Old 06-01-2015, 05:03 PM
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If hand and leg cuffs weren't working, then I'm not sure of one that doesn't put the police at risk. Getting too close to the head or feet would risk biting, headbutting, or kicking.

How would you restrain someone who, despite being cuffed, remained violent? Bear in mind that he was on drugs that could very well have meant he didn't feel, or didn't care about, pain, so things like tasers are unlikely to work.

I guess you could have as many cops as it takes each grabbing an arm or leg or whatever, but I'm not convinced that doing that would be less likely to harm the suspect than sitting on him, assuming he continues to thrash around, kick out, and generally resist.
Establish a cordon sanitaire, an eight foot circle with the perp as the center. All personnel will keep their various toes outside of that circle. The circle moves with him in whatever direction he squirms, and simply maintains public safety until he runs out of steam. Patience, one of the more modest virtues, but nonetheless important.
  #3186  
Old 06-01-2015, 05:54 PM
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If hand and leg cuffs weren't working, then I'm not sure of one that doesn't put the police at risk.
I have no use for police who are unwilling to place themselves at risk to preserve the peace. If we are going to err on the side of safety, it should be for the unarmed citizen, not the armed police officer. If a cop has to take one for the team once in a while to avoid excessive force, so be it.

Last edited by Fear Itself; 06-01-2015 at 05:55 PM.
  #3187  
Old 06-01-2015, 06:07 PM
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Fortunately legislators, judges, and juries don't agree with you.
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Old 06-01-2015, 06:27 PM
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Fortunately legislators, judges, and juries don't agree with you.
Fortunately for whom? The dead suspect? Or the hypothetical police officer who might have suffered a bite, kick, or headbutt from the immobilized suspect?
  #3189  
Old 06-01-2015, 06:41 PM
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Fortunately for those who think that people shouldn't have to risk avoidable injury at work.
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Old 06-01-2015, 06:44 PM
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Fortunately for those who think that people shouldn't have to risk avoidable injury at work.
Which is why we don't have fire departments anymore.
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Old 06-01-2015, 07:35 PM
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Where do you get that his death was caused by negligence or maliciousness, rather than proper procedure and/or necessary force?
Because those, by definition, would not be fatal.
  #3192  
Old 06-01-2015, 08:07 PM
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I'll ask again, what actual reason do you have for thinking it was malicious or negligent? Not baseless speculation, actual reasoning.
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Because those, by definition, would not be fatal.
Aye, I was wondering the same thing, Steophan. How is it that procedures properly followed result in death of the arrestee? Are you saying that the goal of the procedures is the death of the arrestee?
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Old 06-01-2015, 08:11 PM
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I will toss this in here because it constitutes sort of invisible encounters with police and it does not lack for controversy,

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A controversial proposed judicial rule change allowing judges to issue warrants to conduct “remote access” against a target computer regardless of its location has been approved by a United States Courts committee, according to the Department of Justice.

Federal agents have been known to use such tactics in past and ongoing cases: a Colorado federal magistrate judge approved sending malware to a suspect’s known e-mail address in 2012. But similar techniques have been rejected by other judges on Fourth Amendment grounds.
So the police can (try to) put a virus or other exploit on your computer, for "evidence gathering". Sounds pretty evil to me, unless they start with spammers.

I suppose this probably ought to have its own thread.
  #3194  
Old 06-01-2015, 09:10 PM
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Police raid a woman's house and arrest her over 6 oz of marijuana despite her having a medical marijuana license. They confiscate a bunch of her stuff including her vibrator under civil forfeiture laws. The case is later dismissed because she complied with all of the state laws but the cops still want to keep all her stuff including her vibrator.

Michigan allows cops to profit 100% from civil forfeitures, regardless of whether the defendants were guilty or even if charges were filed. Hopefully, her testimony will cause this law to be repealed as it's a blatant and obvious abuse of police power.
  #3195  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:31 AM
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http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...rmed-shot-dead

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...An unarmed black 18-year-old accused of shoplifting was killed by a police officer in Virginia who had been barred from patrolling city streets for almost three years after fatally shooting another unarmed man.

William Chapman was shot dead by Stephen Rankin, a white Portsmouth police officer, during a struggle in a Walmart parking lot. Rankin, 35, a US navy veteran trained in martial arts, was once disciplined for posting violent remarks and Nazi images online....
Really hoping this is wildly exaggerated. Maybe its only half as bad as it sounds. Gee, that would be swell!
  #3196  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:39 AM
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http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...rmed-shot-dead


Really hoping this is wildly exaggerated. Maybe its only half as bad as it sounds. Gee, that would be swell!
It definitely meets the criteria for inclusion in this thread: Medical examiner rules William Chapman's death a homicide.

And from the Guardian article:
Quote:
Chiefs only allowed Rankin to return to frontline policing in March last year, almost three years after he killed an unarmed 26-year-old Kazakh immigrant in February 2011. Rankin was later found to have insulted the man and his family in other online postings.

A sergeant in the department at the time told the Guardian that senior commanders were formally warned by one of Rankin’s supervisors weeks before his first fatal shooting that he was “dangerous” and likely to cause someone harm.
This one is going to cost the city of Portsmouth a lot of money, I think.
  #3197  
Old 06-02-2015, 05:23 AM
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Aye, I was wondering the same thing, Steophan. How is it that procedures properly followed result in death of the arrestee? Are you saying that the goal of the procedures is the death of the arrestee?
The goal is restraint of the arrestee without unnecessary harm to either him or the arresting officers.

It's interesting that there's been a lot of criticism of what they did, but no realistic suggestions of what they could have done instead. I'll ask again, not particularly expecting a response, how should they restrain someone who continues to violently resist even after being hand- and leg-cuffed, at minimal risk to anyone?
  #3198  
Old 06-02-2015, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
The goal is restraint of the arrestee without unnecessary harm to either him or the arresting officers.

It's interesting that there's been a lot of criticism of what they did, but no realistic suggestions of what they could have done instead. I'll ask again, not particularly expecting a response, how should they restrain someone who continues to violently resist even after being hand- and leg-cuffed, at minimal risk to anyone?
How is he violently resisting, and to whom exaclty is he a danger when both his arms and legs are shackled ? Howsabout "take a step back and wait until he's tired of wriggling impotently or hurts himself in the process" as a tactical choice ? What is accomplished by sitting on him, precisely ?

Last edited by Kobal2; 06-02-2015 at 05:27 AM.
  #3199  
Old 06-02-2015, 05:56 AM
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Where do you get "wriggling impotently" from? And if they did leave him to hurt himself, they'd be getting just as much shit as they are now.
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:00 AM
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His arms and legs were restrained. What's he gonna do, crawl away at high speed ?
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