Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #12201  
Old 11-08-2019, 06:53 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 9,434
If Mueller was a football player they'd call him Butterfingers.
  #12202  
Old 11-08-2019, 06:55 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,600
Mueller is a 75 year old man. If he was a football player they'd call him Porcelain.

Seriously people, use facts when constructing your elaborate fantasies!
  #12203  
Old 11-08-2019, 08:32 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Mueller is a 75 year old man. If he was a football player they'd call him Porcelain.

Seriously people, use facts when constructing your elaborate fantasies!
He got cowed by a bully patriarchy, and his own internalized version of it? That is not elaborate, nor a fantasy.

Only one poster said Mueller was dirty. But more have just said that he dropped the ball on democracy, by our lights, and it would be fair to say so out loud, in the aim of getting to justice.

So go for it. Lay out how it would go if rm demanded an interview. Would dt fire him? Would it go to the scotus? If people are retarded for having a divergent view from yourself, on a matter of historical speculation, then don't you need to lay it out? You are the one who knows ("excitedly", in fact) not us.

Last edited by drad dog; 11-08-2019 at 08:33 PM.
  #12204  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:30 PM
SteveG1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Van Nuys CA
Posts: 14,660
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Well said.

I'm dismayed by watching formerly sensible posters fly off the deep end.
It's disgust and fatigue. We are sick and tired of the Trump Shit Show and the GOP Toady Shit Show. It never ends, and it keeps getting worse. We've had enough. Where in the blue fucking hell does it end??
  #12205  
Old 11-09-2019, 05:49 PM
ThelmaLou's Avatar
ThelmaLou is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Neither here nor there
Posts: 16,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
It's disgust and fatigue. We are sick and tired of the Trump Shit Show and the GOP Toady Shit Show. It never ends, and it keeps getting worse. We've had enough. Where in the blue fucking hell does it end??
I abso-fucking-lutely understand! And thank you for that totally honest answer. I believe you. I am disgusted and worn out. I've had enough... but there's more to come.

I don't know where it ends, but I know we can't let them make us lose our shit, too.
__________________
“Master, I’ve discovered the answer! Knock and the door will be opened to you.” The master replied, “Who said the door was closed?”
  #12206  
Old 11-12-2019, 10:46 AM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,398
Latest from Stone trial (via Darren Samuelsohn, Politico):
Quote:
DOJ also says it still wants to show the Godfather II clip. Stone objects. Judge Jackson is inclined to show jurors the transcript from the key scene.
  #12207  
Old 11-12-2019, 11:58 AM
Lance Turbo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,358
Bradley P. Moss Tweets about Rick Gates' testimony from Roger Stone's trial today.

Quote:
Trump denied in writing and under oath to Mueller any recollection of ever discussing WikiLeaks with Stone or being aware of Stone discussing WikiLeaks with the campaign.

Gates testified he was in the car with Trump when he Trump talked to Stone about it.
  #12208  
Old 11-12-2019, 12:13 PM
Ike Witt's Avatar
Ike Witt is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Lost in the mists of time
Posts: 14,999
I'm pretty sure that banana Republicans will say that perjury isn't an impeachable offense.
  #12209  
Old 11-12-2019, 12:25 PM
Lance Turbo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ike Witt View Post
I'm pretty sure that banana Republicans will say that perjury isn't an impeachable offense.
Never, in the history of the Republican party, have they ever had an issue with the president lying under oath.

On a completely unrelated note, here's Sen. McConnell's closed-door impeachment statement.

Quote:
I firmly believe that the evidence establishes beyond a reasonable doubt that William Jefferson Clinton made statements to the federal grand jury regarding the nature of his relationship with a subordinate government employee and the purpose of his post-deposition conversation with a loyal secretary that were false, misleading, and perjurious, and warrant removal from office. Thus, I find the President guilty under Article I.
  #12210  
Old 11-12-2019, 01:57 PM
enipla is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 14,819
People should not dis Mueller IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
A graduate of Princeton University and New York University, Mueller served as a Marine Corps officer during the Vietnam War, receiving a Bronze Star for heroism and a Purple Heart. He subsequently attended the University of Virginia School of Law.
Those are pretty good credentials. Few could match them.

Ya know, sometimes ya just have had enough shit.
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #12211  
Old 11-12-2019, 04:00 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
I abso-fucking-lutely understand! And thank you for that totally honest answer. I believe you. I am disgusted and worn out. I've had enough... but there's more to come.

I don't know where it ends, but I know we can't let them make us lose our shit, too.
Go ahead and lose our shit, I say. The fact that people are losing their shit doesn't mean people have thrown their hands up in the air and checked out of democracy; it's just the opposite. It's exasperation. It's...rage.

And rage is what this country was founded on.
  #12212  
Old 11-12-2019, 05:15 PM
ThelmaLou's Avatar
ThelmaLou is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Neither here nor there
Posts: 16,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Go ahead and lose our shit, I say. The fact that people are losing their shit doesn't mean people have thrown their hands up in the air and checked out of democracy; it's just the opposite. It's exasperation. It's...rage.

And rage is what this country was founded on.
By "losing our shit" I mean becoming irrational, out of control, destructive of those on the same side, and attacking each other, for example, accusing Mueller of being in a conspiracy to protect DJT because he didn't say the right words.

Expressing rage and disgust, yes--that is called for. Definitely. But not against those working and hoping for the same outcome, namely the removal of the Former President from office. Let's not devour each other in our rage.

I wonder if what is needed is mass demonstrations, a la the civil rights movement and anti-Vietnam war protests. I read a headline somewhere today (can't remember where) asking why the mainstream media aren't calling for the Former President's resignation. Is everyone still being too polite? Are we still expecting the other side to play fair, all evidence to the contrary?
__________________
“Master, I’ve discovered the answer! Knock and the door will be opened to you.” The master replied, “Who said the door was closed?”

Last edited by ThelmaLou; 11-12-2019 at 05:16 PM.
  #12213  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:07 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
By "losing our shit" I mean becoming irrational, out of control, destructive of those on the same side, and attacking each other, for example, accusing Mueller of being in a conspiracy to protect DJT because he didn't say the right words.

Expressing rage and disgust, yes--that is called for. Definitely. But not against those working and hoping for the same outcome, namely the removal of the Former President from office. Let's not devour each other in our rage.

I wonder if what is needed is mass demonstrations, a la the civil rights movement and anti-Vietnam war protests. I read a headline somewhere today (can't remember where) asking why the mainstream media aren't calling for the Former President's resignation. Is everyone still being too polite? Are we still expecting the other side to play fair, all evidence to the contrary?
Only one person said Mueller was a bad person, who might be part of a conspiracy, and I don't know that I've seen them post lately. We all know he's a human being though, he's not daddy, and he is not above criticism, any more than dt is AFAICS.

He had a long honeymoon for me and progressives. Nobody has been cruel to him here. You don't seem to want it to end though. It's time to take stock and figure out the next thing. He's not a bad person but it's a new situation, and he hadn't ever seen it before. Just like we hadn't.
  #12214  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:35 PM
Fiveyearlurker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by enipla View Post
People should not dis Mueller IMHO.



Those are pretty good credentials. Few could match them.

Ya know, sometimes ya just have had enough shit.
It's possible to believe, as I do, that a good and honorable man has lost a step or two in recent years at his age. During his hearing, it was difficult for me to avoid thinking that he was a step behind.
  #12215  
Old 11-12-2019, 07:29 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,349
It is a new one on all of us and Mueller too. It was a stand off at many times and in ways that were so subtle that you didn't know what was happening. And things could change with a tweet! We still don't know where we are at civically, every one of us.

But for this thread we need to agree we actually have got all the answers and it is too dangerous to discuss it, and no bad words about rm? OK.

There is a direct line from the failure of dt to be interviewed, to Cory Lewandowski practically spitting on the committee a week or so ago. The Ukraine call was the day after the rmr dropped. It's been a duel all the way, and dt hasn't lost yet.
  #12216  
Old 11-12-2019, 07:52 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,600
It's clear that Trump was emboldened by the fact that Mueller's report didn't immediately flip the republicans over to an impeachment position. However I'm not convinced that Mueller attempting to get an in-person interview with Trump would have effected that, or that there was any different way that Mueller could have presented himself and his report to get the party of traitors to stop supporting the guy they already knew was a criminal going in.

Of course, since we're talking about speculative alternate universes here, I don't think it can be proved either way. Perhaps if Mueller had cussed a bunch Trump would have been impeached by sundown. Who knows?
  #12217  
Old 11-12-2019, 07:55 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
It is a new one on all of us and Mueller too. It was a stand off at many times and in ways that were so subtle that you didn't know what was happening. And things could change with a tweet! We still don't know where we are at civically, every one of us.

But for this thread we need to agree we actually have got all the answers and it is too dangerous to discuss it, and no bad words about rm? OK.

There is a direct line from the failure of dt to be interviewed, to Cory Lewandowski practically spitting on the committee a week or so ago. The Ukraine call was the day after the rmr dropped. It's been a duel all the way, and dt hasn't lost yet.
You keep trying to draw some drop-dead nexus between one thing and the other, and it's complete bullshit as if Trump was emboldened on July 25, 2019, and not beforehand.

The earliest known contact where Rudy Giuliani sent his henchmen to meet with Ukrainian officials was clear back in 2018. You believe Giuliani was doing this because... why? On his own initiative, nothing to do with Trump? No, wait, we don't have to guess. Per Wikipedia:

Quote:
In 2018, Parnas and Fruman were sent by Giuliani to Ukraine to extract damaging information on Trump's U.S. political rivals. "Their mission was to find people and information that could be used to undermine the Special Counsel's investigation, and also to damage former Vice President Joseph R. Biden." Both were also at the center of the pro-Trump forces' push to remove the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine because her loyalty to President Trump was deemed deficient "as he pursued his agenda there". Also, over the course of a year beginning in 2018, the two brought Giuliani to Ukrainians who were amenable to promoting "a largely unsubstantiated narrative about the Bidens". These willing Ukrainians included Yuriy Lutsenko, a former Prosecutor General of Ukraine, who was essential to aiding Giuliani's efforts to produce damaging information.
(Emphasis mine)

It's also painfully obvious you have no idea how the whole subpoena thing would have gone. Mueller would have wasted literally years trying to obtain testimony that would never have consisted of more than, "I assert my rights under the Fifth Amendment." I'm sure you'd have been the first one whining if Mueller had in fact pursued Trump's (non) testimony and not submitted his report until, oh, May 2021.
  #12218  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:00 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
It's possible to believe, as I do, that a good and honorable man has lost a step or two in recent years at his age. During his hearing, it was difficult for me to avoid thinking that he was a step behind.
You and I had the same take. But it in no way invalidates the good, thorough and extremely difficult work he accomplished under nearly impossible conditions, and that's the important thing to me. The failure is in the citizenry that chooses to not read and comprehend what he tried so hard to tell us.

Even in his brief press conference, his primary points were that 1) His testimony is the report; 2) every American should be concerned with what happened; and 3) (for fuck's sake) read the report.
  #12219  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:00 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
By "losing our shit" I mean becoming irrational, out of control, destructive of those on the same side, and attacking each other, for example, accusing Mueller of being in a conspiracy to protect DJT because he didn't say the right words.

Expressing rage and disgust, yes--that is called for. Definitely. But not against those working and hoping for the same outcome, namely the removal of the Former President from office. Let's not devour each other in our rage.

I wonder if what is needed is mass demonstrations, a la the civil rights movement and anti-Vietnam war protests. I read a headline somewhere today (can't remember where) asking why the mainstream media aren't calling for the Former President's resignation. Is everyone still being too polite? Are we still expecting the other side to play fair, all evidence to the contrary?
The mainstream media I've been reading have pretty much walked right up that line. I've read numerous articles in the WaPo, NYT, and other mainstream outlets essentially saying the same thing they have for the past few years, which is that he's corrupt, he lies, he's unfit and all of that -- it's not fundamentally changing anything and it won't.

And as I've tried to explain before, the reason it won't matter what the MSM post is that it's the people, it is us, it is the guy sitting next to you in the bar, or living above you in apartment 4A. Or working in the cubicle next to you. Until they change, until they 'get it'...forget it.

I honestly believe the average American no longer qualifies for a democracy, which is not to say that I want something other than a democracy. I simply mean that the average American no longer really has democratic values, no longer appreciates and understands the value of electing someone who values institutions. About half this country believes that as long as they have a job and/or as long as their cultural supremacy is respected, that's good enough -- never mind the fact that at this rate, with trillion with a fucking capital T dollar deficits, we're racing toward a dark choice between social security & medicare, the military, or default.

I'll point out something else that I've pointed out before but needs pointing out again: more people in this country trust the military as an institution than they do the press and the very people they vote for. Their own instincts hold what is inherently the greatest threat to a democratic regime in higher regard than they do the mechanisms by which they can participate in their own self-government. This has been shown in poll after poll. I am not pointing that out to critique the military; I am pointing that out to illustrate how the average person who is voting is quite likely to vote to end their own self-rule. That is almost always how democracies die, and that is how ours will die.
  #12220  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:06 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,244
Missed the edit window but wanted to add:

Sorry for the thread jack: I agree that this is not on Mueller. He's in unfamiliar territory just as we are. I never for a moment disagree with his ultimate conclusion: we've been looking for a superman to save us from ourselves, and Mueller ain't it. Didn't volunteer for the job. We're the one who put Mueller, Brennan, Strzok, McCabe, Rosenstein, and other faithful public servants in front of the bus with their hands tied behind their backs. That we should expect individual people to save the country from the collective stupidity of 63 million voters is fucking guffaw-ish.
  #12221  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:14 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
You keep trying to draw some drop-dead nexus between one thing and the other, and it's complete bullshit as if Trump was emboldened on July 25, 2019, and not beforehand.

The earliest known contact where Rudy Giuliani sent his henchmen to meet with Ukrainian officials was clear back in 2018. You believe Giuliani was doing this because... why? On his own initiative, nothing to do with Trump? No, wait, we don't have to guess. Per Wikipedia:

(Emphasis mine)

It's also painfully obvious you have no idea how the whole subpoena thing would have gone. Mueller would have wasted literally years trying to obtain testimony that would never have consisted of more than, "I assert my rights under the Fifth Amendment." I'm sure you'd have been the first one whining if Mueller had in fact pursued Trump's (non) testimony and not submitted his report until, oh, May 2021.
We don't know, you included. Courts expedite stuff in the emergent national interest. We survived 2000.

IMO trinp is a fascist and needs to be challenged on every front in public. The lack of this I think has been harmful to democracy.

We need stronger enforcement and media coverage. I honestly don't know if democracy can survive the loss of the fairness doctrine. If you compare 1973 to now it's obvious. No one could have predicted the gaslighting and the ease with which it is occurring in 2019. Trump needs to be trolled and challenged until he loses his shit, and it should have started on day one.

Last edited by drad dog; 11-12-2019 at 08:16 PM.
  #12222  
Old 11-12-2019, 08:16 PM
ThelmaLou's Avatar
ThelmaLou is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Neither here nor there
Posts: 16,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
It's clear that Trump was emboldened by the fact that Mueller's report didn't immediately flip the republicans over to an impeachment position. However I'm not convinced that Mueller attempting to get an in-person interview with Trump would have effected that, or that there was any different way that Mueller could have presented himself and his report to get the party of traitors to stop supporting the guy they already knew was a criminal going in.

Of course, since we're talking about speculative alternate universes here, I don't think it can be proved either way. Perhaps if Mueller had cussed a bunch Trump would have been impeached by sundown. Who knows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
You keep trying to draw some drop-dead nexus between one thing and the other, and it's complete bullshit as if Trump was emboldened on July 25, 2019, and not beforehand.

...<snip>...

It's also painfully obvious you have no idea how the whole subpoena thing would have gone. Mueller would have wasted literally years trying to obtain testimony that would never have consisted of more than, "I assert my rights under the Fifth Amendment." I'm sure you'd have been the first one whining if Mueller had in fact pursued Trump's (non) testimony and not submitted his report until, oh, May 2021.
Correct. Times two.
__________________
“Master, I’ve discovered the answer! Knock and the door will be opened to you.” The master replied, “Who said the door was closed?”
  #12223  
Old 11-13-2019, 08:36 AM
elucidator is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Further
Posts: 60,192
The Ironass personality disorder, my number ten least favorite. Principled, good, rigidity, bad. Military ironass, worse, Marine Corps ironass worser and worser. I can entirely understand why such principles are necessary, even essential, in a combat situation, another good reason to avoid such situations. As if another was needed.

Da Rules. The ironass believes in Da Rules like my Mama believed in Jesus. And Da Rules say thou shalt not X, Y. or Z. So Mueller did not do X, Y, or Z. Period, full stop, snap to attention. Ten clear and obvious examples of obstruction, right there, with the eight by ten glossies. If he didn't do that, fuck him, if he did, its on us.

And it is.
__________________
Law above fear, justice above law, mercy above justice, love above all.
  #12224  
Old 11-13-2019, 09:25 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 23,911
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Yes, it would have. The fact that he didn't is why we're having this sidebar, is it not?

I mean, the Trump/Zelensky call was one day after the Mueller testimony. Do you think the call happens if Mueller unequivocally said the above? Probably not, for, as reported, Trump was emboldened by Mueller's performance.

Hell, it could even be argued that had Mueller been more forceful, Trump wouldn't have betrayed our allies in yet another phone call made post-Mueller hearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
You keep trying to draw some drop-dead nexus between one thing and the other, and it's complete bullshit as if Trump was emboldened on July 25, 2019, and not beforehand.

The earliest known contact where Rudy Giuliani sent his henchmen to meet with Ukrainian officials was clear back in 2018. You believe Giuliani was doing this because... why? On his own initiative, nothing to do with Trump? No, wait, we don't have to guess. Per Wikipedia:

(Emphasis mine)

It's also painfully obvious you have no idea how the whole subpoena thing would have gone. Mueller would have wasted literally years trying to obtain testimony that would never have consisted of more than, "I assert my rights under the Fifth Amendment." I'm sure you'd have been the first one whining if Mueller had in fact pursued Trump's (non) testimony and not submitted his report until, oh, May 2021.
This Ukraine thing has nothing to do with Mueller, but thanks for trying to conflate the two issues.

The obvious fact that Trump was emboldened by Mueller's testimony was cited earlier in this thread, er, bolded above.

Here's some more, as you seem to be confused on this issue:


Trump: Mueller's congressional testimony was 'a great day for me'


Trump claims victory in wake of Mueller testimony

Trump, after Mueller testimony to House, says Republican Party had good day

To read the news articles from that day, the line from the reaction to Mueller's testimony to the call the very next day is evident.

Yes, you are correct - this Ukrainian deal was going on prior to July 25th. But due to Mueller's testimony, Trump thought he was in the clear and started openly doing that which was previously clandestine. And so a bunch of people who weren't in the know suddenly came into the know, and alarm bells were rung.

I'm stunned that this obvious sequence of events is even being questioned, to be honest. The entire reason this Ukraine thing blew up is because Trump thought he was legitimized by Mueller's testimony.

Last edited by JohnT; 11-13-2019 at 09:28 AM.
  #12225  
Old 11-13-2019, 10:47 AM
Snarky_Kong is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,414
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
It's clear that Trump was emboldened by the fact that Mueller's report didn't immediately flip the republicans over to an impeachment position. However I'm not convinced that Mueller attempting to get an in-person interview with Trump would have effected that, or that there was any different way that Mueller could have presented himself and his report to get the party of traitors to stop supporting the guy they already knew was a criminal going in.
If he hadn't decided to follow the OLC opinion that POTUS can't be indicted, and just straight out said he committed perjury and obstructed justice there would have been some movement.
  #12226  
Old 11-13-2019, 11:06 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
This Ukraine thing has nothing to do with Mueller, but thanks for trying to conflate the two issues.
Oh, I fear you have missed my point completely.

I'm not conflating Ukraine with Russia. My point is that Trump was already well on his way to engaging in new criminal behavior with Ukraine long before Mueller had even concluded his report on Trump's past criminal behavior with Russia, and before any other result from Mueller's report occurred. For this reason, to attribute Trump being emboldened by Mueller's ultimate performance is idiotic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
The obvious fact that Trump was emboldened by Mueller's testimony was cited earlier in this thread, er, bolded above.

Here's some more, as you seem to be confused on this issue:


Trump: Mueller's congressional testimony was 'a great day for me'


Trump claims victory in wake of Mueller testimony

Trump, after Mueller testimony to House, says Republican Party had good day

To read the news articles from that day, the line from the reaction to Mueller's testimony to the call the very next day is evident.

Yes, you are correct - this Ukrainian deal was going on prior to July 25th. But due to Mueller's testimony, Trump thought he was in the clear and started openly doing that which was previously clandestine. And so a bunch of people who weren't in the know suddenly came into the know, and alarm bells were rung.

I'm stunned that this obvious sequence of events is even being questioned, to be honest. The entire reason this Ukraine thing blew up is because Trump thought he was legitimized by Mueller's testimony.
And you attribute all of the above to Mueller, nothing to do with Barr? Ok, then. That is where you and I will forever disagree. And I don't think it's me who is confused.
  #12227  
Old 11-13-2019, 11:15 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 23,911
I'm not the one attributing it. It's Politico. The Washington Post. Reuters. NBC. CNN. I can find more citations, I'm sure.

And to buttress my case, I'm looking at career civil servants who literally have zero problem calling a crime a crime and saying so to Congress. Why wouldn't Mueller do this?

Last edited by JohnT; 11-13-2019 at 11:16 AM.
  #12228  
Old 11-13-2019, 11:33 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
I'm not the one attributing it. It's Politico. The Washington Post. Reuters. NBC. CNN. I can find more citations, I'm sure.

And to buttress my case, I'm looking at career civil servants who literally have zero problem calling a crime a crime and saying so to Congress. Why wouldn't Mueller do this?
Again, you and others forget the constraints under which Mueller was allowed to investigate. One of the very first things decided at the outset of the investigation (likely ordered by Rosenstein but I have no evidence of this) was that the SC would be constrained by the OLC memo. This should not be surprising, since Mueller was working under the auspices of the DOJ and the memo is guidance that has long been followed by DOJ.

It's clear to anyone who read the report that Mueller intended for Congress to pursue its remedies under impeachment. He gave them a road map to do so. It is Barr who deterred this by mischaracterizing the report from the beginning. I don't understand why you continue to disparage Mueller but give Barr a pass.
  #12229  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:06 PM
SteveG1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Van Nuys CA
Posts: 14,660
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
This Ukraine thing has nothing to do with Mueller, but thanks for trying to conflate the two issues.

The obvious fact that Trump was emboldened by Mueller's testimony was cited earlier in this thread, er, bolded above.

Here's some more, as you seem to be confused on this issue:


Trump: Mueller's congressional testimony was 'a great day for me'


Trump claims victory in wake of Mueller testimony

Trump, after Mueller testimony to House, says Republican Party had good day

To read the news articles from that day, the line from the reaction to Mueller's testimony to the call the very next day is evident.

Yes, you are correct - this Ukrainian deal was going on prior to July 25th. But due to Mueller's testimony, Trump thought he was in the clear and started openly doing that which was previously clandestine. And so a bunch of people who weren't in the know suddenly came into the know, and alarm bells were rung.

I'm stunned that this obvious sequence of events is even being questioned, to be honest. The entire reason this Ukraine thing blew up is because Trump thought he was legitimized by Mueller's testimony.
Trump is emboldened every day of his life, because that's how long he's gotten away with everything.
  #12230  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:53 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,244
I think JT and The Glow are talking past each other; they're both basically correct. Trump probably did feel emboldened after the Mueller investigation ended, but it's just one example of something that fits within a much longer pattern of behavior. Like any authoritarian, Trump keeps testing and applying pressure to institutions. He's been doing that since day one, but people have been resisting, which partly explains the turnover in the DoJ.

I go back to the average voter, though. There has been a mountain range of information available to the public indicating he is completely and totally unfit for office. Journalists have stood up to Trump. Other Republicans have stood up to Trump. Judges have stood up to him. Career civil servants have stood up to him. Trump has been challenged. And yet, 40% of the country seems pretty strongly behind him no matter what he does, and another 10% can't make up their minds as to whether to support him, oppose him, or have no opinion of him.

It's true that some adults have been more or less shut out of the voting process - African Americans who have to drive 30 minutes and wait in line for an hour or two just to vote, for example. But a lot of other Americans just don't make the connections between what Donald Trump is doing to destroy the politics of normal and their own unfreedom.
  #12231  
Old 11-13-2019, 01:15 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
Again, you and others forget the constraints under which Mueller was allowed to investigate. One of the very first things decided at the outset of the investigation (likely ordered by Rosenstein but I have no evidence of this) was that the SC would be constrained by the OLC memo. This should not be surprising, since Mueller was working under the auspices of the DOJ and the memo is guidance that has long been followed by DOJ.

It's clear to anyone who read the report that Mueller intended for Congress to pursue its remedies under impeachment. He gave them a road map to do so. It is Barr who deterred this by mischaracterizing the report from the beginning. I don't understand why you continue to disparage Mueller but give Barr a pass.
I think he needed to give the nation who paid for the thing something after all of it: just say that it was a crime of intent and the president refused to sit in person, that it was not under his control, and POTUS' written reponses were inadequate to resolve issues about such a crime.

Mueller didn't want to be there at all, seemed allergic to his own testimony, and was mostly concerned wtih trying to stay out of memes and clips, by his word choices, and Barr and tronp both took that as a thumbs up ran like crazy with it within hours. And look at that: voila! The innocence project 2.0, more fucking gaslighting and post truth.
  #12232  
Old 11-13-2019, 01:22 PM
drad dog is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 6,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
Oh, I fear you have missed my point completely.

I'm not conflating Ukraine with Russia. My point is that Trump was already well on his way to engaging in new criminal behavior with Ukraine long before Mueller had even concluded his report on Trump's past criminal behavior with Russia, and before any other result from Mueller's report occurred. For this reason, to attribute Trump being emboldened by Mueller's ultimate performance is idiotic.



And you attribute all of the above to Mueller, nothing to do with Barr? Ok, then. That is where you and I will forever disagree. And I don't think it's me who is confused.
Barr is discrete from dt? How?

You don't get how dt could be emboldened by things that happen in his world? (He does that like a dog sniffs shit for christs sake)

Because dt was already engaged in corruption he exists in a steady state of it, where he is never emboldened by any event affecting him, but exists in a permaboldened state?

Your description of yourself is boldened above.

Last edited by drad dog; 11-13-2019 at 01:23 PM.
  #12233  
Old 11-13-2019, 02:22 PM
Ann Hedonia's Avatar
Ann Hedonia is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,534
My primary problem with Mueller ISN’T that he didn’t come down harder on Trump. My issue at this time is that he didn’t push harder to communicate the extent and seriousness of the Russian election interference in general.

If anything, the focus on Trump detracted from the other, more important issues regarding Russian interference. Because the special prosecutor’s investigation DID look into the mechanics of the vast election interference machine. And he laid it all out.

And then he forgot about it. The investigation was written off as an insignificant sham from the right because no one “got Trump”. The left cried foul because no one “got Trump”.

No one paid any attention to what they did get. And now I’m watching TV. There is a congressional hearing happening. And the subject of election interference is key to these hearings. And there are lots of people claiming that Ukraine helped Clinton and the Democrats frame Russia in order to steal an election. This narrative is the product of Russian disinformation and it’s gaining traction.

This narrative is dangerous to the national security of this country and the security of the world. I found the testimonies of our national security advisers very compelling, especially as these Russia and Eastern European experts described the pervasive intrusion of their computers and communications that they constantly deal with. Yet, just now, some Republican said something to the effect of Ukrainian interference to be just as bad as the Russian interference.

What did the Ukrainians do to politically hurt Trump? Well, apparently when candidate Trump proposed giving the Crimean peninsula to Russia, a government official wrote an Op-Ed strongly disagreeing with that position.

It’s like we never paid our taxpayer dollars to investigate the interference. And the silence from those investigators is deafening. And I kind of wonder why the DOJ and private citizen Mueller aren’t defending the results of their investigation. Actually, I know why the DOJ isn’t, because Barr is corrupt. But I think Mueller is in a unique position with regards to having full and complete knowledge of the mechanics of Russian interference and his silence is deafening.
  #12234  
Old 11-13-2019, 11:04 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,398
Andrew Weissmann, "legendary prosecutor" of Mueller's team, was on The Beat with Ari Melber on MSNBC to discuss today's impeachment hearing. Melber also said that Weissmann was joining NBC News and MSNBC as a legal analyst, so we might come to hear more from him about the Mueller investigation.
  #12235  
Old 11-15-2019, 11:50 AM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,398
Justin Sink, Bloomberg:
Quote:
*ROGER STONE IS GUILTY IN U.S. TRIAL OVER LIES ABOUT 2016 LEAKS

*VERDICT MAKES STONE LATEST TRUMP AIDE TO FACE PRISON
  #12236  
Old 11-15-2019, 11:55 AM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,330
Found guilty on all 7 counts. They didn't deliberate very long, either. Good verdict.

Also ties Trump directly to the Wikileaks release of Russian illegally-obtained emails. Not exactly a big secret to anyone actually following the evidence, but nice to have it unequivocally confirmed.
  #12237  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:09 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,146
The 2nd Mueller tranche is out:

https://www.scribd.com/document/4379...-Docs-Part-Two

These are more heavily redacted than the last batch. I believe that the key things to look for are the redaction reasons. b5 (as I understand it) means that the redacted materials are being used in some court proceedings. b7A and b7B (again, as I understand it) are things that could end up being used against someone in a court or as part of an immunity deal, etc.

On that basis, having read to page 39, I would vote that Jay Sekulow is currently the subject of a court proceeding.
  #12238  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:41 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,146
Based on the sheer volume of b5 material in the Hope Hicks interview (ending page 86), I think we either need to assume that she's flipped on someone or that she's in legal peril.

The matters that seem to be being discussed, in the small amount of non-redacted text, seem relatively benign - just discussions of how to spin doctor stuff. Spin doctoring is not a crime. Nothing that the text shows would lead one to believe that the redacted materials would cover anything other than more of that.

A month or two back, I believe, I saw an article saying that Hicks was trying to get back into the White House as an employee. That makes it unlikely that she has flipped on Trump or anyone who Trump still likes.

Based on the above, my guess would be that she lied to the Feds in her testimony and she's involved in legal proceedings on that front. Her testimony is all redacted because the entire testimony is considered a crime. The gaps only exist because they were already made public in the Mueller Report.

That she hasn't been accepted back into the White House makes me suspect that they don't think she's going to be around long enough to be worth taking in - i.e. she's not likely to win her case and might just use her access to gain something that she can use to trade with the Feds.
  #12239  
Old 12-03-2019, 02:01 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,146
From the b5's in Rosenstein's testimony, it looks like there's a legal proceeding on the matter of how the FBI Director was appointed, following Comey's firing.

Given that there's a big blurb about Mueller and how he was considered for FBI Director and that is all unredacted, Trump's thing about Mueller having a conflict of interest or spying on him during the interview doesn't seem to be the subject of this case.

If there were some corrupt activities to install someone crooked into the position of FBI Director, I would expect it to either have counted as part of the obstruction case against Trump in the Mueller Report, or to have been put down as a future case to try and file against Trump, once he's out of office. It's not the former and, since this is a b5 matter not a b7, we know that it's currently in litigation and not being held back for a later date.

Mystery.
  #12240  
Old 12-03-2019, 02:49 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,146
Chris Christie and Corey Lewandowski both talk about the specifics of the firing of James Comey. In both, we see our friend, b5.

While it's not impossible that they might a perjury case open against them, given the subject matter, I'd lean towards their testimony being actively used against the principal actors in Trump's obstruction of justice: Jay Seculow and others (Eisenburg?) on the Trump legal team.
  #12241  
Old 12-03-2019, 04:24 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,146
The section on Bruce Ohr doesn't reveal much, but it does notably contain a few b7A's. That would indicate that either a few things from Simpson/Steele were confirmed as true or that the government is trying to put together a case against Simpson and Steele.

It would seem to indicate that Steele knew about the Alpha Bank connection to Trump Tower before it was general knowledge. And we might note that the Steele Dossier has a section on Alpha that does not reference Trump at all (which is rather strange for a document intended to destroy Trump), so it seems likely that there was more on the subject that never was reported by BuzzFeed or anyone.

Given that they aren't hackers, it's a curious question who would have put Steele or Simpson onto the subject.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017