Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #901  
Old 08-05-2019, 10:37 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
A couple of pieces of news today.

First: North Korea fires presumed ballistic missiles as talks stall.
Quote:
North Korea continued to ramp up its weapons demonstrations by firing two presumed short-range ballistic missiles into the sea Tuesday while lashing out at the United States and South Korea for continuing military exercises that the North says could derail fragile nuclear diplomacy.
Quote:
South Korea’s military alerted reporters to the launches minutes before the North’s Foreign Ministry denounced Washington and Seoul over the start of their joint exercises on Monday. The ministry’s statement said the drills, which North Korea sees as an invasion rehearsal, leave the country “compelled to develop, test and deploy the powerful physical means essential for national defense.”

The statement from an unidentified spokesperson said Pyongyang remains committed to dialogue, but it could seek a “new road” if the allies don’t change their positions.

“It is too axiomatic that a constructive dialogue cannot be expected at a time when a simulated war practice targeted at the dialogue partner is being conducted,” said the statement released by Pyongyang’s official Korean Central News Agency. “We remain unchanged in our stand to resolve the issues through dialogue. But the dynamics of dialogue will be more invisible as long as the hostile military moves continue.”
So they want to talk but they're gonna carry a big stick:
Quote:
Seoul’s Joint Chiefs of Staff said the two projectiles the North flew cross-country were likely short-range ballistic missiles. They were launched early Tuesday from an area near the North’s western coast and traveled about 450 kilometers (279 miles) on an apogee of 37 kilometers (23 miles) at a maximum speed of above Mach 6.9 before landing in waters off the country’s eastern coast, the JCS said.

The JCS said the projectiles showed similar flight characteristics to short-range missiles North Korea fired on July 25, which traveled about 600 kilometers (373 miles) during launches the North described a “solemn warning” to South Korea over its plans to continue military drills with the United States.

South Korea’s military had said the flight data of the July missiles showed similarities to the Russian-made Iskander, a solid-fuel, nuclear capable missile that is highly maneuverable and travels on lower trajectories compared to conventional ballistic weapons, improving its chances of evading missile defense systems.
The other news is that NKorea appears to have upped their game in another, very profitable way: UN report: North Korea cyber experts raised up to $2 billion.
Quote:
A panel monitoring U.N. sanctions says North Korean cyber experts have illegally raised money for the country’s weapons of mass destruction programs “with total proceeds to date estimated at up to $2 billion.”

The experts said in a new report to the Security Council that North Korea is using cyberspace “to launch increasingly sophisticated attacks to steal funds from financial institutions and cryptocurrency exchanges to generate income” in violation of sanctions.
21st century conflict is going to be complicated:
Quote:
The experts’ report, seen Monday by The Associated Press, said large-scale attacks against cryptocurrency exchanges by North Korea allow the country “to generate income in ways that are harder to trace and subject to less government oversight and regulation than the traditional banking sector.”

North Korea also continues to have access to the global financial system, “through bank representatives and networks operating worldwide” as a result of “deficiencies” by U.N. member states in implementing financial sanctions and Pyongyang’s “deceptive practices,” the experts said.
NKorea is also using a number of fronts to move arms, fuel and information:
Quote:
The experts said representatives from three North Korean entities under U.N. sanctions — KOMID, Saeng Pil and Namchongang — continued to operates overseas, including under diplomatic cover, “attempting to transfer conventional weapons and expertise and to procure equipment and technology for the country’s WMD (weapons of mass destruction) programs.”

The Munitions Industry Department and other sanctioned entities also continued to raise funds for these programs by sending information technology workers abroad, the panel said. And the Reconnaissance General Bureau and other sanctioned bodies, including the Mansudae Overseas Project Group, “also engaged in the import of luxury goods and attempted sale of frozen assets overseas” in violation of U.N. sanctions.
NKorea isn't helpless, and they're now demanding to be treated as an equal.

Thanks, Trump!
  #902  
Old 08-05-2019, 11:08 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
In addition to their ability to scheme their way into ill-gotten crypto gains, I suspect that the North Koreans are now getting a bit more help from China than they were before the Trump-Kim detente began. Now that the US is fully challenging China to an economic death match, there's simply no reason for China to help the US with North Korea at this point, aside from its own self-interest in not seeing another nation possess WMD capabilities.
  #903  
Old 08-07-2019, 03:20 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
Some pretty severe posturing going on:
Quote:
North Korea said Wednesday leader Kim Jong Un supervised a live-fire demonstration of newly developed, short-range ballistic missiles intended to send a warning to the United States and South Korea over their joint military exercises.

The official Korean Central News Agency said two missiles launched from a western airfield flew across the country and over the area surrounding the capital, Pyongyang, before accurately hitting an island target off its eastern coast.
Quote:
The KCNA said the launches early Tuesday verified the reliability and combat ability of “new-type tactical guided missiles.” Kim expressed satisfaction and said the launches would send an appropriate level of warning to the military exercises between the United States and South Korea that began on Monday, the report said.
There are numerous pictures at that link, all of which came from the Korean Central News Agency, the DPRK's official news agency.
  #904  
Old 09-09-2019, 01:04 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
North Korea says it’s willing to resume fake nuke talks with US in order to play Trump like a fiddle again! Seriously; they are approaching the table with a strong posture:
Quote:
North Korea said Monday it’s willing to resume nuclear diplomacy with the United States in late September, but only if the U.S. comes to the negotiating table with satisfactory new proposals.

If the proposals don’t satisfy North Korea, dealings between the two countries will come to an end, First Vice Foreign Minister Choe Son Hui said.

In a statement carried by state media, Choe said North Korea has given the U.S. enough time to map out new proposals to salvage the nuclear negotiations.
This echoes what was said earlier this year:
Quote:
In April, North Korean leader Kim Jong Un said the U.S. must come up with new proposals to revive the talks by December.
They bought themselves quite a bit of time with almost no effort or expense; a great example of statesmanship, IMO. Too bad I'm too biased to admire it, eh.
  #905  
Old 09-09-2019, 01:18 PM
Buck Godot's Avatar
Buck Godot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 6,164
Kim realizes that 2020 is coming and Trump is desperate diplomatic victory, any diplomatic victory, in order to support the notion that he is a master negotiator. All the leverage is on Kim's side and he knows it. All he has to do is promise not to do any testing until November 4th 2020 and Trump will give him anything he wants.
  #906  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:51 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
Right after saying they were ready to talk about de-nuking again, North Korea fired off a couple of missiles:
Quote:
The North Korean projectiles fired from its South Phyongan province, which surrounds its capital city of Pyongyang, flew about 330 kilometers (205 miles) across the country and in the direction of the waters off its east coast, according to South Korea’s Joint Chiefs of Staff and Defense Ministry.

The military said South Korea will monitor possible additional launches. The JCS said the U.S. and South Korean militaries were analyzing the launches but didn’t immediately say whether the weapons were ballistic missiles or rocket artillery.
  #907  
Old 09-10-2019, 06:25 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
Kim realizes that 2020 is coming and Trump is desperate diplomatic victory, any diplomatic victory, in order to support the notion that he is a master negotiator. All the leverage is on Kim's side and he knows it. All he has to do is promise not to do any testing until November 4th 2020 and Trump will give him anything he wants.
Yes, not only have NK been given the upper hand in these discussions for the first time, they're openly flaunting it. Trump is now officially Kim's bitch.

Last edited by Gyrate; 09-10-2019 at 06:25 AM.
  #908  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:28 AM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
Trump is now officially Kim's pussy ass bitch, I think you mean.
  #909  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:01 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Trump is now officially Kim's pussy ass bitch, I think you mean.
I thought there was a difference between a "pussy" and an "ass" but apparently there taint.
  #910  
Old 09-10-2019, 12:46 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
Trevor Noah explains.
  #911  
Old 09-23-2019, 06:43 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
Trump and his bestie planning another playdate?. Also, Trump lies about the situation:
Quote:
As he arrived at the U.N. for the start of the annual General Assembly of world leaders, Trump responded to a question about when he planned to meet with Kim, saying, “It could happen soon. It could happen soon.”

In comments during a later meeting, Trump said of North Korean diplomacy: “It’s moving along pretty well, actually.”
Sure it is- for North Korea:
Quote:
In recent days, however, North Korea has praised Trump for saying Washington may pursue an unspecified “new method” in nuclear negotiations as well as for his decision to fire his hawkish former National Security Adviser John Bolton.
  #912  
Old 10-02-2019, 03:44 PM
wguy123 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,191
11th missile test this year:

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/76632...om-a-submarine

Definitely statesman.
  #913  
Old 10-05-2019, 05:04 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 5,398
Trump got played by Kim Jong-un - US, North Korea break off nuclear talks after months of negotiations (The Hill):
Quote:
U.S. and North Korean negotiators broke off high-level nuclear talks after months of negotiations between the two countries.

Reuters reported Saturday that North Korea's top official present for negotiations with the U.S. told reporters that the U.S. had brought nothing to the table for the latest round of talks.

“The negotiations have not fulfilled our expectation and finally broke off,” Kim Myong Gil said.

"The U.S. raised expectations by offering suggestions like a flexible approach, new method and creative solutions, but they have disappointed us greatly and dampened our enthusiasm for negotiation by bringing nothing to the negotiation table," he added, according to Reuters.
  #914  
Old 10-05-2019, 06:11 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
https://apnews.com/c66474b67b3e41cdad6d21ba3385ddc2
Quote:
North Korea’s chief negotiator said Saturday that discussions with the U.S. on Pyongyang’s nuclear program have broken down, but Washington said the two sides had “good discussions” that it intends to build on in two weeks.

The North Korean negotiator, Kim Miyong Gil, said the talks in Stockholm had “not fulfilled our expectations and broke down. I am very displeased about it.” Speaking outside the North Korean Embassy, he read a statement in Korean that a translator next to him read in English.

Kim said negotiations broke down “entirely because the U.S. has not discarded its old stance and attitude.”
This contrasts greatly with
Quote:
State Department spokesperson Morgan Ortagus said Kim’s comments did “not reflect the content or the spirit” of the “good discussions” that took place over eight-and-a-half hours, adding that the U.S. accepted an invitation from Sweden to return to Stockholm in two weeks to continue discussions.
  #915  
Old 10-05-2019, 08:57 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
They can have all the discussions they want: all indications are that North Korea has the ability (perhaps crude) to launch nukes from subs.

Trump's "deal making" has allowed something to happen that I thought the US would never allow, which is to allow NK the ability to hit the US mainland with nukes. Yes, if NK actually launched so much as one in our direction, it would be bad for NK, but let's say NK can credibly put on the table the ability to hit every major American metropolitan area with a nuke: what leverage does the US have then? What can the US do to stop NK then? How can they credibly "protect" Japan and South Korea then?

Answer is, they can't do that any more than we could "protect" Europe against an all out Soviet attack. What this means is that we're very close to the point at which NK can do whatever it wants to terrorize its neighbors with impunity. If the Russians invade Eastern Europe, there's nothing we can do about that militarily - nothing at all. Same with North Korea if they terrorize their Asian neighbors by shooting missiles over Japan and South Korea, which they will continue to do until the sanctions are lifted.

Hellooooooo?! That's exactly what the fuck I've been trying to explain all along.

And that's also why Iran is going to take a page out of North Korea's playbook, and not Iraq's. They're going to escalate and harass, and be a pain in our ass. There's no reward for capitulation; the reward comes from successfully putting pressure on the US and allies, and making them pay prices they don't want to pay.

Last edited by asahi; 10-05-2019 at 08:58 PM.
  #916  
Old 10-06-2019, 02:58 PM
Fentoine Lum is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
One suspects he has other reasons for suddenly declaring that he's going to use the US Commerce Department to bring jobs back to a Chinese firm that is only losing jobs because it's banned from using US parts after violating sanctions by selling US products to Iran and North Korea.

Trump is "winning", in the sense that he is personally making a lot of money while screwing over America and Americans in a dozen different ways. I think that's a reasonable thing to worry about.
A more reasonable thing to get at might be that this is how our economic system works.
  #917  
Old 10-06-2019, 03:16 PM
Fentoine Lum is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
They can have all the discussions they want: all indications are that North Korea has the ability (perhaps crude) to launch nukes from subs.

Trump's "deal making" has allowed something to happen that I thought the US would never allow, which is to allow NK the ability to hit the US mainland with nukes. Yes, if NK actually launched so much as one in our direction, it would be bad for NK, but let's say NK can credibly put on the table the ability to hit every major American metropolitan area with a nuke: what leverage does the US have then? What can the US do to stop NK then? How can they credibly "protect" Japan and South Korea then?

Answer is, they can't do that any more than we could "protect" Europe against an all out Soviet attack. What this means is that we're very close to the point at which NK can do whatever it wants to terrorize its neighbors with impunity. If the Russians invade Eastern Europe, there's nothing we can do about that militarily - nothing at all. Same with North Korea if they terrorize their Asian neighbors by shooting missiles over Japan and South Korea, which they will continue to do until the sanctions are lifted.

Hellooooooo?! That's exactly what the fuck I've been trying to explain all along.

And that's also why Iran is going to take a page out of North Korea's playbook, and not Iraq's. They're going to escalate and harass, and be a pain in our ass. There's no reward for capitulation; the reward comes from successfully putting pressure on the US and allies, and making them pay prices they don't want to pay.
Can we assume, for the sake of discussion here, that we're all aware that the US sold nuclear reactors to NK a mere 2 years before we placed them on an "axis of evil" list? And that they were sold from a company Don Rumsfeld had once sat on the board of directors of? And that this was an utterly bipartisan move/plan/program having been initiated during the Clinton administration and wrapped up under the Bush administration? And that we all helped fund NK's purchase of these nuclear reactors?

The two faces of Rumsfeld
- 2000: director of a company which wins $200m contract to sell nuclear reactors to North Korea
- 2002: declares North Korea a terrorist state, part of the axis of evil and a target for regime change

Rumsfeld was on ABB board during deal with North Korea
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/rumsfel...-korea/3176922

As for Iran, we all get that the US toppled Iran's duly democratically elected govt to insert one of our own choosing, no?

I cannot imagine why Iran would be so hostile to US for no reason like that.
  #918  
Old 10-06-2019, 03:25 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,885
That’s interesting info, and part of a long history of carrots and sticks as US policy evolved (as it did toward a young Ho Chi Minh, a young-to-middle-aged Saddam Hussein, etc., etc.)...but it’s not particularly relevant to current policy decisions.

You have posted in several threads today, all with the same message: “EVERYONE sucks, and they always have!”. It could be a coincidence. It seems you are trying to get people to be cynical toward all people in power. There’s some value in this, but given the current impeachment crisis in the US executive branch, it looks suspiciously like you have an ulterior motive.

I will say no more — I shouldn’t be junior modding. But your repeated theme is a derailment (in some threads more than in others). I humbly suggest you start a thread called something like “Everyone in power has behaved badly,” and concentrate your efforts there.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 10-06-2019 at 03:26 PM.
  #919  
Old 10-06-2019, 03:40 PM
Fentoine Lum is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
That’s interesting info, and part of a long history of carrots and sticks as US policy evolved (as it did toward a young Ho Chi Minh, a young-to-middle-aged Saddam Hussein, etc., etc.)...but it’s not particularly relevant to current policy decisions.

You have posted in several threads today, all with the same message: “EVERYONE sucks, and they always have!”. It could be a coincidence. It seems you are trying to get people to be cynical toward all people in power. There’s some value in this, but given the current impeachment crisis in the US executive branch, it looks suspiciously like you have an ulterior motive.

I will say no more — I shouldn’t be junior modding. But your repeated theme is a derailment (in some threads more than in others). I humbly suggest you start a thread called something like “Everyone in power has behaved badly,” and concentrate your efforts there.
I'll never understand why some folks are so nervous about discussions. And that's all this is. You're nervous about what I'm posting, what, not the acceptable "left" partisanshithead versus "right" patisanshithead hissyfitting? Where oh where to find a safe space.

I rather think the "message" is a tad over your head/outside your acceptable lines.

If you can create some problems for me here by tattling, go ahead. Life will go on, somehow, glad to have rattled your cage.

Last edited by Fentoine Lum; 10-06-2019 at 03:41 PM.
  #920  
Old 10-06-2019, 03:47 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 9,885
Hah! Nothing rattled here, as you know. I think it’s a fine discussion to have. Just not in threads about other subjects. I admit your theme is POTENTIALLY relevant in this thread, if you had connected (even in an abstract, comparative sense) the Clinton and Rumsfeld policies to the ones today. But since you’ve also “contributed” to at least one thread today as a total hijack (the “advice to Pelosi” one), it’s hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.
  #921  
Old 10-06-2019, 03:54 PM
Fentoine Lum is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
Hah! Nothing rattled here, as you know. I think it’s a fine discussion to have. Just not in threads about other subjects. I admit your theme is POTENTIALLY relevant in this thread, if you had connected (even in an abstract, comparative sense) the Clinton and Rumsfeld policies to the ones today. But since you’ve also “contributed” to at least one thread today as a total hijack (the “advice to Pelosi” one), it’s hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Right, totally unrattled. I can't believe they let me post here without securing your permission first.

[This post has not been approved by JKellyMap]
  #922  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:34 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,200
I've not visited this thread for a while. (I already have my own nightmares, but thanks anyway.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fentoine Lum View Post
Can we assume, for the sake of discussion here, that we're all aware that the US sold nuclear reactors to NK a mere 2 years before we placed them on an "axis of evil" list? And that they were sold from a company Don Rumsfeld had once sat on the board of directors of?
Assume it if you wish, but I didn't know until you pointed it out. (Some things that disturb my peace of mind I'd rather not know.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
They can have all the discussions they want: all indications are that North Korea has the ability (perhaps crude) to launch nukes from subs.

Trump's "deal making" has allowed something to happen that I thought the US would never allow, which is to allow NK the ability to hit the US mainland with nukes. Yes, if NK actually launched so much as one in our direction, it would be bad for NK, but let's say NK can credibly put on the table the ability to hit every major American metropolitan area with a nuke: what leverage does the US have then? What can the US do to stop NK then? How can they credibly "protect" Japan and South Korea then?
... we're very close to the point at which NK can do whatever it wants to terrorize its neighbors with impunity. If the Russians invade Eastern Europe, there's nothing we can do about that militarily - nothing at all. Same with North Korea if they terrorize their Asian neighbors by shooting missiles over Japan and South Korea, which they will continue to do until the sanctions are lifted.

Hellooooooo?! That's exactly what the fuck I've been trying to explain all along.

And that's also why Iran is going to take a page out of North Korea's playbook, and not Iraq's. They're going to escalate and harass, and be a pain in our ass. There's no reward for capitulation; the reward comes from successfully putting pressure on the US and allies, and making them pay prices they don't want to pay.
So. On HD's question "Trump the statesman?" should we put you down as a "No"?
  #923  
Old 10-07-2019, 08:11 AM
Gyrate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 24,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fentoine Lum View Post
A more reasonable thing to get at might be that this is how our economic system works.
Yes, but this isn't how our political system is supposed to work. In fact, using one's political office to personally profit is usually seen as a textbook definition of "corruption" (and is one of the reasons behind the Emoluments clause).
  #924  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:50 PM
Fentoine Lum is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Yes, but this isn't how our political system is supposed to work. In fact, using one's political office to personally profit is usually seen as a textbook definition of "corruption" (and is one of the reasons behind the Emoluments clause).
Agreed, the illusion and imprinting is very different than the objective reality around us. George Washington engaged in this sort of thing as well.
  #925  
Old 10-08-2019, 12:11 AM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
North Korea adopts an extremely strong public stance today:
Quote:
North Korea on Monday denounced a scheduled U.N. Security Council discussion of its latest test of an underwater-launched ballistic missile, calling it “dangerous” and saying it will increase “our desire to defend our sovereignty.”

The council scheduled closed consultations Tuesday on recent North Korean tests at the request of the United Kingdom, France and Germany.

North Korea’s U.N. Ambassador Kim Song told several reporters Monday the United States is “behind the impure moves” of the three countries, saying the meeting would not take place without the consent of the Trump administration.

Weekend discussions between senior U.S. and North Korean officials in Stockholm broke down amid acrimony. The talks were the first since the second summit between President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un collapsed in Vietnam in February due to squabbling over how much sanctions relief should be given to the North in return for dismantling its main nuclear complex.

Pyongyang’s chief nuclear negotiator Kim Myong Gil told reporters at Beijing’s airport on his way home Monday that “whether or not there are further talks will depend on the U.S.” He described talks with his U.S. counterpart, Stephen Biegun, on Saturday as “very bad and sickening,” and stressed that the U.S .had “not presented any new initiative.”
  #926  
Old 11-01-2019, 04:50 PM
wguy123 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,191
More missile testing from NK:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/north-...ocket-launcher

Yeah, that's a Fox news link. Sorry.
  #927  
Old 11-01-2019, 06:33 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
OBAMA! IRAN! OBAMA! IRAN! IRAN CAN HIT US WITH NUKES!

Actually, they can't, but now North Korea can.

Well done, Trump and republitards.
  #928  
Old 11-02-2019, 12:23 AM
Chisquirrel is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,751
At this point it feels like picking on a tropical storm, but SO MUCH WINNING!
  #929  
Old 11-02-2019, 07:48 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
Where's the OP?
  #930  
Old 11-02-2019, 07:50 AM
Vinyl Turnip is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 20,465
"You've changed. I fell in love with Liddle' Rocket Man, not Super-Large Rocket Man!" <weeps salty orange tears>
  #931  
Old 11-18-2019, 10:39 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
Well look who's calling the shots now:
Quote:
Senior North Korean official Kim Yong Chol said the U.S. must completely scrap that military drill and abandon its hostility against his country if it wants to see the resumption of the nuclear negotiations.
Quote:
“The U.S. tries to make a good impression as if it contributes to peace and stability on the Korean peninsula, describing the suspension (of the aerial drill) as ‘consideration for and concession’ to someone,” Kim Yong Chol said in a statement carried by state media. “But we demand that the U.S. quit the drill or stop it once and for all.”

North Korea wants the United States to lift international sanctions on it, provide security guarantees and make other concessions in return for abandoning its advancing nuclear arsenal.
Quote:
But senior North Korean Foreign Ministry adviser Kim Kye Gwan said Monday his country has no interest in giving Trump further meetings to brag about unless it gets something substantial in return.

In his Tuesday statement, Kim Yong Chol also accused the U.S. of trying to buy time as a North Korea-set deadline for Washington to work out new proposals by year’s end is approaching.

“The U.S. should not dream of the negotiations for denuclearization before dropping its hostile policy toward” North Korea, he said.
ETA: Trump sure is a great negotiator, isn't he?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 11-18-2019 at 10:40 PM.
  #932  
Old 11-18-2019, 10:43 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
Come on, HurricaneDitka.

Time to come back and defend your post.
  #933  
Old 11-19-2019, 12:25 AM
Chisquirrel is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 2,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Come on, HurricaneDitka.

Time to come back and defend your post.
Well, they're not launching rockets OVER Japan, just testing ones that can blow up Portland. So much winning!
  #934  
Old 11-19-2019, 08:52 AM
XT's Avatar
XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 35,675
I'm trying to figure out why this thread is still being bumped. It's been over 2 years now since North Korea tested a nuclear weapon or fired an actual ICBM. I see Bo has brought up some man bites dog level North Korean bluster, and there has been some excitement (on this board) about NK firing some short ranged missiles and the equivalent of artillery (MPLS) systems, but the core is they STILL haven't actually done the stuff we were originally telling them not to do. Frankly, I'm surprised it's lasted this long. They must REALLY be desperate for an agreement is all I can say, especially since Trump et al are obviously distracted with his endless other foreign policy fuckups and not really paying much attention to North Korea now that they aren't being big pains in the ass.

None of this shows Trump is a statesman, but nothing I've seen in this thread shows that, regardless, it's not working. We have bought 2 years of North Korean in activity wrt testing at least for very little. I'll say the same thing I said earlier, which is even if they start back up at this point it's STILL worth it, as they are that much closer to crumbling. Every day North Korea gets that much more sketchy, even with China giving them all sorts of back door assistance.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #935  
Old 11-19-2019, 02:26 PM
Fear Itself is offline
Cecil's Inner Circle
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Flavortown
Posts: 36,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
None of this shows Trump is a statesman, but nothing I've seen in this thread shows that, regardless, it's not working. We have bought 2 years of North Korean in activity wrt testing at least for very little. I'll say the same thing I said earlier, which is even if they start back up at this point it's STILL worth it, as they are that much closer to crumbling. Every day North Korea gets that much more sketchy, even with China giving them all sorts of back door assistance.
In the meantime, the Norks have constructed at least a dozen new nuclear devices.
  #936  
Old 11-19-2019, 02:44 PM
XT's Avatar
XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 35,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
In the meantime, the Norks have constructed at least a dozen new nuclear devices.
Your cite indicates they have had the ability to make 6 new nukes a year since at least 2016 so not really surprising. I do believe that 6+6 does in fact equal a dozen (assuming they made 6 in 2017 and 2018 and we just haven't counted 2019 as done yet). Unless you believe that had we stayed the course with our old policy they would have magically not made those nukes, it seems a wash to me. There were already going to make them anyway.

At least they haven't tested any ICBMs or nukes in the interim. Mainly, that's symbolic or even just for show, but it does say something as they were kind of on a path of increasingly provocative 'tests' before...while making those 6+ nukes a year of course.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!

Last edited by XT; 11-19-2019 at 02:45 PM.
  #937  
Old 11-19-2019, 07:18 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
I'm trying to figure out why this thread is still being bumped. It's been over 2 years now since North Korea tested a nuclear weapon or fired an actual ICBM. I see Bo has brought up some man bites dog level North Korean bluster, and there has been some excitement (on this board) about NK firing some short ranged missiles and the equivalent of artillery (MPLS) systems, but the core is they STILL haven't actually done the stuff we were originally telling them not to do. Frankly, I'm surprised it's lasted this long. They must REALLY be desperate for an agreement is all I can say, especially since Trump et al are obviously distracted with his endless other foreign policy fuckups and not really paying much attention to North Korea now that they aren't being big pains in the ass.

None of this shows Trump is a statesman, but nothing I've seen in this thread shows that, regardless, it's not working. We have bought 2 years of North Korean in activity wrt testing at least for very little. I'll say the same thing I said earlier, which is even if they start back up at this point it's STILL worth it, as they are that much closer to crumbling. Every day North Korea gets that much more sketchy, even with China giving them all sorts of back door assistance.
That's because you're completely and utterly missing the point.

If there were a pause that were to lead to a real progress, that would be one thing.

The reality, however, is that this pause is a lost opportunity. In fact, it's worse than a lost opportunity, because not only does North Korea not trust the US to actually work toward a mutually-satisfying agreement; even worse, the United States under Trump looks incoherent, weak, ineffectual.

Fuck the pause - don't get distracted by that. What Trump's foreign policy represents is horrifically dangerous, because when you consider the fact that Trump is now making provocative demands of South Korea and Japan, not only is North Korea not encouraged to participate in nuclear talks; they're, in fact, quite possibly emboldened.

p.s Still waiting for HD.

Predictably, he pussed out.
  #938  
Old 11-20-2019, 09:09 AM
Horatius is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 1,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Fuck the pause - don't get distracted by that. What Trump's foreign policy represents is horrifically dangerous, because when you consider the fact that Trump is now making provocative demands of South Korea and Japan, not only is North Korea not encouraged to participate in nuclear talks; they're, in fact, quite possibly emboldened.

p.s Still waiting for HD.

Predictably, he pussed out.


And on that note, consider this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-seoul-demand/

China signs defence agreement with South Korea as US angers Seoul with demand for $5bn troop payment

Quote:

An editorial in Monday’s edition of The Korea Times warned that the security alliance between the two countries “may fall apart due to Washington’s blatantly excessive demands”.

Mr Trump has previously threatened to withdraw US troops if his demands are not met, with the editorial accusing the president of regarding the Korea-US mutual defence treaty “as a property deal to make money”.

The vast majority of Koreans agree, with a recent survey by the Korea Institute for National Reunification showing that 96 per cent of people are opposed to Seoul paying more for the US military presence.
__________________
Where am I going, and why am I in this handbasket?
  #939  
Old 11-20-2019, 02:07 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And on that note, consider this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-seoul-demand/

China signs defence agreement with South Korea as US angers Seoul with demand for $5bn troop payment
Another example of Trump playing into the hands of Vladimir Putin, which coincidentally also ends up playing into the hands of China.

Trump's "America first" schtick is going to end up ceding major influence to China. In the process, it helps Putin because, like China, they want a smaller American footprint globally. But China's the real winner, the real beneficiary of Trump's bidness acumen -- excuse me, scam artistry.

When the era of Trump and GOP scams is over, this will be the legacy that their party, and the rest of the country, will have to reckon with. The United States is giving away its power, not because it is running out of money (although with trillion dollar deficits, that could be argued, I suppose), but because of its corrupt and compromised leadership.

Last edited by asahi; 11-20-2019 at 02:10 PM.
  #940  
Old 11-20-2019, 02:41 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post

When the era of Trump and GOP scams is over, this will be the legacy that their party, and the rest of the country, will have to reckon with. The United States is giving away its power, not because it is running out of money (although with trillion dollar deficits, that could be argued, I suppose), but because of its corrupt and compromised leadership.
I just hope that in the coming years, everything is not just simply swept under the rug with the old "Oh, that's ancient history, no use in going after those Republicans, yadda yadda, for the good of the country, yadda yadda, look forward, not backward....

The massive Republican corruption, the links between Russia and the NRA, the collusion of Bill Barr, McConnell et al need to be rooted out, stem, branch and twig.
  #941  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:22 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
I was among those who thought that prosecuting Bush and Cheney for their Iraq adventure was preposterous. But what's happened since 2016 is on an entirely different scale. It's important that lots of Republicans go to jail for this unforgivable corruption and selling out of the nation's interests, and I don't care if it divides the country; there's no uniting it anyhow. There's no uniting anything until we start forcing people to accept some facts, and the fact is they have sold out their countries. And there must be a price for that.
  #942  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:13 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,629
North Korea continues to posture from a position of strength: North Korea says it’s up to US to choose ‘Christmas gift’
Quote:
North Korea on Tuesday repeated its assertions that the Trump administration is running out of time to salvage nuclear negotiations, saying it’s entirely up to the United States to choose what “Christmas gift” it gets from the North.

The statement, attributed to a senior diplomat, came as North Korea continues to dial up pressure on Washington and Seoul ahead of leader Kim Jong Un’s end-of-year deadline for the U.S. to offer mutually acceptable terms for a deal.
What if the 'gift' is an attack on Seoul? Or Tokyo?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-03-2019 at 01:14 PM.
  #943  
Old 12-03-2019, 02:52 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
North Korea continues to posture from a position of strength: North Korea says it’s up to US to choose ‘Christmas gift’What if the 'gift' is an attack on Seoul? Or Tokyo?
If the sanctions aren't lifted, then we'll go back to seeing a lot more provocation on their part. Trump has squandered any time and leverage it had, and the leverage is increasingly with NK.
  #944  
Old 12-03-2019, 05:26 PM
jayjay is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 37,184
Winning! Am I right?
  #945  
Old 12-03-2019, 06:04 PM
HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
I'm trying to figure out why this thread is still being bumped. It's been over 2 years now since North Korea tested a nuclear weapon or fired an actual ICBM. I see Bo has brought up some man bites dog level North Korean bluster, and there has been some excitement (on this board) about NK firing some short ranged missiles and the equivalent of artillery (MPLS) systems, but the core is they STILL haven't actually done the stuff we were originally telling them not to do. Frankly, I'm surprised it's lasted this long. They must REALLY be desperate for an agreement is all I can say, especially since Trump et al are obviously distracted with his endless other foreign policy fuckups and not really paying much attention to North Korea now that they aren't being big pains in the ass.

None of this shows Trump is a statesman, but nothing I've seen in this thread shows that, regardless, it's not working. We have bought 2 years of North Korean in activity wrt testing at least for very little. I'll say the same thing I said earlier, which is even if they start back up at this point it's STILL worth it, as they are that much closer to crumbling. Every day North Korea gets that much more sketchy, even with China giving them all sorts of back door assistance.
If you are suggesting North Korea hasn't tested or developed new weapons milestones, I would point out that North Korea tested an SLBM 2 months ago. . They have also been doing shorter-range tests that threaten US allies, and we've been ignoring them because they don't threaten the US mainland.

If you are suggesting that Trump's diplomacy is to thank for the absence of nuclear tests, I would remind you (as has been brought up here many times) that North Korea lacks a test site because their previous one collapsed from test damage. That situation won't last forever; assuredly they are rebuilding.

There are no good options in North Korea, so I'm not going to be harder on Trump than I was on Obama. I believe that cowardly engaging in bullshit diplomatic exercise is better than engaging in nuclear brinksmanship. But it violates Occam's razor in several different ways to suggest that there's anything going on here except North Korea was at a disadvantage when their test site collapsed, and Trump's desperation for a deal gave them the political cover they needed to regroup from that setback while simultaneously building out the second leg of a nuclear triad.

But really, the only hint we need to what's going on is that NK now has the confidence to make public threats to squeeze Trump for more concessions. We all know what the outcome is going to be; Trump is either going to cave again, or NK will cross another line again. At that point folks will have to admit that Trump got nothing for all his abasement to a foreign dictator.
  #946  
Old 12-03-2019, 06:21 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
There are no great options, but there's one option that could work and that's a gradual reduction in sanctions in exchange for good behavior. But considering that the diplomatic canon ever since the end of WWII stipulates that America be the dominant power and that it must force nations perceived to be weaker to capitulate before we will even negotiate with them, I don't expect much success no matter who's president -- especially when countries like Iran and North Korea now, thanks to our smashing success in Iraq, have a much better understanding of our real world tendencies to change regimes and know that the only language we speak and respect is deterrent through WMD capabilities.

The problem with our foreign policy is that we have no credibility as a force that seeks peace - this was true even before Trump arrived in Washington. A more ominous problem that has developed since the dawn of the Trump era is that we're increasingly unpredictable, erratic, vague, and contradictory. That's the sort of thing that invites miscalculation, and a single miscalculation with a country like North Korea can have devastating consequences - for all parties.
  #947  
Old 12-04-2019, 08:05 AM
Horatius is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 1,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
There are no great options, but there's one option that could work and that's a gradual reduction in sanctions in exchange for good behavior. But considering that the diplomatic canon ever since the end of WWII stipulates that America be the dominant power and that it must force nations perceived to be weaker to capitulate before we will even negotiate with them, I don't expect much success no matter who's president -- especially when countries like Iran and North Korea now, thanks to our smashing success in Iraq, have a much better understanding of our real world tendencies to change regimes and know that the only language we speak and respect is deterrent through WMD capabilities.


But that's all contradicted by Obama having established the Iran Nuclear Deal, which was working well until Trump shit all over it. The Iran deal proves that mature, measured negotiation and compromise can work, just so long as we have people completely unlike Trump doing the work.
__________________
Where am I going, and why am I in this handbasket?
  #948  
Old 12-04-2019, 08:51 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,662
27 days until the deadline, and Trump still thinks North Korea has agreed to get rid of its nuclear weapons:

Quote:
But, you know, my relationship with Kim Jong Un is really good, but that doesn’t mean he won’t abide by the agreement we signed. You have to understand. You have to go and look at the first agreement that we signed. It said he will denuclearize. That’s what it said. I hope he lives up to the agreement, but we’re going to find out.
I guess that means he's chosen a Christmas gift by default:

Quote:
What is left to be done now is the US option and it is entirely up to the US what Christmas gift it will select to get.
Yippee.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 12-04-2019 at 08:51 AM.
  #949  
Old 12-04-2019, 09:26 AM
Fiveyearlurker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,870
So, this thread aged well, huh?
  #950  
Old 12-04-2019, 03:59 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 11,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
But that's all contradicted by Obama having established the Iran Nuclear Deal, which was working well until Trump shit all over it. The Iran deal proves that mature, measured negotiation and compromise can work, just so long as we have people completely unlike Trump doing the work.
The Iran deal indeed proves that measure negotiation and compromise can work. It was a multilateral compromise to avoid what would have been a potentially disastrous escalation into a regional war. The Iran deal was an example of how to apply economic pressure: Obama was giving Iran something possibly to look forward to. Trump has gone back to the "we don't speak to evil" way of approaching diplomacy, and the results have been predictable.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:35 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017