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  #51  
Old 03-01-2020, 06:18 PM
Exapno Mapcase is online now
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Is anybody else in the world worrying about this? Is the Democratic Party suddenly going to be blindsided by some October Surprise? Are the Republicans using it as a weapon? Why is this an issue? Bernie is running as a Democrat, having filed official papers saying he is a Democrat. Any other filing does not cancel that out. It's not like having conflicting citizenships or religions. Yes, Bernie Sanders is Jewish and also probably an atheist. Just like Donald Trump is a Christian and couldn't spell God if spotted a G and an O. Makes no difference.

Just want to note that I am not a Bernie Bro, although I will enthusiastically back him if he's the Democratic nominee. Because he'll be the Democrat in the race. Period.
  #52  
Old 03-01-2020, 06:58 PM
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Is anybody else in the world worrying about this? Is the Democratic Party suddenly going to be blindsided by some October Surprise? Are the Republicans using it as a weapon? Why is this an issue? Bernie is running as a Democrat, having filed official papers saying he is a Democrat. Any other filing does not cancel that out. It's not like having conflicting citizenships or religions. Yes, Bernie Sanders is Jewish and also probably an atheist. Just like Donald Trump is a Christian and couldn't spell God if spotted a G and an O. Makes no difference.

Just want to note that I am not a Bernie Bro, although I will enthusiastically back him if he's the Democratic nominee. Because he'll be the Democrat in the race. Period.
It might be a July surprise (probably not, but let's pretend). Bernie signed a pledge, https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...ty-pledge.html , stating that "I am a member of the Democratic Party."

If he signs another document that when asked for his party affiliation, he says "Independent" meaning that he is not a member of a political party then according to paragraph two, the National Chairperson of the DNC may then determine that he is not a "bona fide Democrat" and thus ineligible to have his name placed into nomination.

And the Chairperson would have an excellent case to make. He was an independent for years until 2016, signed the same pledge (possibly), then after not receiving the Dem nomination, reverted to independent status, and then signed this pledge in 2019, only to declare himself an independent again in 2020.

Does that sound like a "bona fide Democrat" to you? A guy who has only identified as a Democrat twice in his life in order to become a nominee for President and using the party in Congress for committee assignments? Plus he calls himself a socialist. Couldn't a case reasonably be made?

Further, if the Chairperson makes that ruling, the delegates at the convention may override his decision by a majority vote, but he may not have a majority on the first ballot, and you know who else gets to vote on procedure? Superdelegates.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is at least in the dark recesses of an evil anti-Bernie mind should the votes be there to pull it off.
  #53  
Old 03-01-2020, 08:23 PM
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Wow, it's a good thing you found this amazing super-secret document that nobody at the DNC knows anything about. Now that's it's out in the open I'm sure that it will be weaponized in a sneak attack that will be a total surprise to the Sanders campaign.

  #54  
Old 03-01-2020, 08:29 PM
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UltraVires, what you are laying out would be absolutely within both the letter and IMO the spirit of the rules. But even I would be hesitant to press that nuclear button.

ETA: Exapno, you can scoff all you want, but it does say something about Bernie's (lack of) integrity that he is willing to so contemptuously flout a sincere desire of the Democratic Party to offer its platform and resources only to those who are bonafide members of the party. People can hijack parties: Pat Buchanan did it to the Reform Party in 2000 (and I still believe this was a conspiracy by the Bush campaign).
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Last edited by SlackerInc; 03-01-2020 at 08:33 PM.
  #55  
Old 03-01-2020, 09:27 PM
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UltraVires, what you are laying out would be absolutely within both the letter and IMO the spirit of the rules. But even I would be hesitant to press that nuclear button.

ETA: Exapno, you can scoff all you want, but it does say something about Bernie's (lack of) integrity that he is willing to so contemptuously flout a sincere desire of the Democratic Party to offer its platform and resources only to those who are bonafide members of the party. People can hijack parties: Pat Buchanan did it to the Reform Party in 2000 (and I still believe this was a conspiracy by the Bush campaign).
Well, remember when everybody was pointing this out in 2016 when he was upsetting the Clinton campaign with his success and progressives were accusing her of sabotaging Sanders? No? Probably because it never happened.

It didn't matter then. It won't matter now. The DNC will do nothing because the issue is too stupid even for Trump to make a fuss over.

If otherwise sane people here people continue to try to make it an issue, my scoffing will become ever louder.
  #56  
Old 03-01-2020, 09:36 PM
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The way to make an issue of it is not through parliamentary maneuvers but through campaigning, as Biden very conspicuously (and IMO effectively) did in his Saturday night speech pointing out that he is a real, lifelong Democrat.
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  #57  
Old 03-01-2020, 10:08 PM
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The way to make an issue of it is not through parliamentary maneuvers but through campaigning, as Biden very conspicuously (and IMO effectively) did in his Saturday night speech pointing out that he is a real, lifelong Democrat.
Which is fine. Bernie can riposte that he is a progressive and where the party should be and will be in the future and he can lead them there. And that he never pulled a Romney and he was there with the Democrats on every single vote where party unity was crucial. Then Biden can point out that this is not the future and that Sanders has never been successful in leading the party to get anything done. And so on.

Just don't try to pull out a sheet of paper at the last minute and expect the world to flip over end.
  #58  
Old 03-01-2020, 10:19 PM
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...Bernie can riposte that...he was there with the Democrats on every single vote where party unity was crucial....
I especially liked it when he urged someone from the left to challenge Obama in 2012: https://www.thenation.com/article/ar...mocratic-part/

Putz.
  #59  
Old 03-01-2020, 11:00 PM
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This strikes me as a non-issue. If the DNC is okay with it, why should anyone else give a fuck? I'm not a Bernie Bro, but this is an asinine question. if the DNC has polls showing that he'll beat Trump, I'm sure they'd be okay with him claiming to be both a Democrat and an independent. I mean, he can't have both jobs at the same time, so this seems like a trivial thing to get worked up about.
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  #60  
Old 03-01-2020, 11:38 PM
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The DNC is not "okay with it". They introduced this loyalty oath precisely because they are not okay with it. You understand, this is not just some dusty old rule they've always had. It's brand spanking new for 2020, just coincidentally the cycle right after Bernie ran as a not-really-Democrat in 2016. Bernie, as he is disturbingly wont to do, pulled a Trumpian maneuver by signing it and then conspicuously flouting it with that Senate paperwork. Like, "Okay, I'll sign the damn thing, but then I'll immediately blow it off--whaddaya gonna do about it? I can destroy your party!"

Same as how he promised to release his taxes during the 2016 campaign ("we've been busy") but then didn't until years later. Same as how he promised to release complete medical records in the wake of a heart attack that looked like it might derail his campaign, but then later pulled an Emily Latella on that when the heat receded. Same as how he was all for superdelegates making a determination "in the best interests of the party" when he thought they might maybe choose him instead of Hillary in 2016, but now it's got to be the plurality winner.

He would be infinitely better than Trump, and far more honest, but that's only because of the very low bar. Among Democrats, he is as disingenuous and slippery as they come, quite ironically given his holier-than-thou projection of an image of supposed probity and bedrock consistency.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...ty-pledge.html
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  #61  
Old 03-01-2020, 11:51 PM
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By "okay with it," I meant that they haven't said anything, and there hasn't been any indication that they're going to. I understand they can. I'm saying that I don't think they will.
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  #62  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:44 AM
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Sure, because they are scared of him. That doesn’t make it ethically OK for him to operate that way.
  #63  
Old 03-02-2020, 02:38 PM
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UltraVires, what you are laying out would be absolutely within both the letter and IMO the spirit of the rules. But even I would be hesitant to press that nuclear button.

ETA: Exapno, you can scoff all you want, but it does say something about Bernie's (lack of) integrity that he is willing to so contemptuously flout a sincere desire of the Democratic Party to offer its platform and resources only to those who are bonafide members of the party. People can hijack parties: Pat Buchanan did it to the Reform Party in 2000 (and I still believe this was a conspiracy by the Bush campaign).
Of course not. That is certainly a nuclear option and I doubt anyone will use it. But evil lawyers have probably mentioned it.

Also, if you notice the notarial jurat at the bottom of the page, the notary did not print Bernie's name in the blank line. In my state, that will get a notarized form held invalid every time because it is not official. The notary did not state that Bernie Sanders appeared before him/her which is essential to be valid.

No, I do not think that such a thing should or will be used to keep Bernie's name out of nomination, but it is a lesson for lawyers to read documents before submitting them.
  #64  
Old 03-02-2020, 06:07 PM
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Sure, because they are scared of him. That doesn’t make it ethically OK for him to operate that way.
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