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  #51  
Old 03-04-2020, 04:26 PM
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You might be right - my suggestion is based on my own reading of each candidate's supporters, but it's hard to have proof for something like this. We'll see.
But what are you exactly warning of? That the great majority of Sanders supporters will merely vote for Biden rather than volunteer/donate? Ok. Hard to imagine anything that he could reasonably do to get you volunteering.
  #52  
Old 03-04-2020, 04:39 PM
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Ahhh, the much respected Sarah Palin gambit.

McCain was old. Biden is older. McCain had to fight through concerns that the direction of the government would change drastically if he couldn't complete his term. Biden would be wide open to the same concerns.

Biden is, again, old. It would be useful if he could find a VP that can take on a similarly active role to the one he played with Obama. Delegation to a trusted subordinate can help manage the workload. That takes a trustworthy subordinate who will only advance Biden's policy in public. (In private they can have passionate disagreements at high volume.) It is easier if that person has a similar approach to government but this plan throws that out the window. Is there a person that is both highly focused on progressive revolution now and willing to consistently champion Biden's vision? Maybe. It seems like it would be hard to find. Without that they end up holding down the VP's chair with their butt and attending state funerals. That doesn't help Biden govern.
  #53  
Old 03-04-2020, 04:49 PM
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What's their beef with Warren?
In my understanding, an irrational expectation that she should have dropped out and supported Bernie.

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Kind of weird for the establishment to make accommodations to the guy who is running on the platform of destroying the establishment.
I agree! It is weird. I'm worried that the alternative is a lesser chance at winning in the general.

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But what are you exactly warning of? That the great majority of Sanders supporters will merely vote for Biden rather than volunteer/donate? Ok. Hard to imagine anything that he could reasonably do to get you volunteering.
I'm worried that a significant chunk of Bernie supporters are angry enough that they might not vote for Biden, but significant and meaningful gestures (like choosing a Bernie-approved VP) might have a chance at winning some of them back.
  #54  
Old 03-04-2020, 04:53 PM
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Is there a person that is both highly focused on progressive revolution now and willing to consistently champion Biden's vision?
Hunter?
  #55  
Old 03-04-2020, 05:01 PM
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Hunter?
*goes to Urban Dictionary to see if "progressive revolution" is now code for spending your child support payments on crack and strippers*
  #56  
Old 03-04-2020, 05:16 PM
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Bernie-or-Busters are clustered in blue states (and specific bits of red ones), while Biden-or-Busters ó people who voted for Trump or not at all in 2016, and will vote for Biden in November but would vote for Trump or not at all if Bernie were the Dem candidate ó are clustered in the places that matter ó the purple places, like the small Midwestern city I live in.

So, if telling Bernie and his bros to fuck off means 10 fewer Biden votes from the first group, but 10 more from the second, Iím going with ďfuck off.Ē

The math is even easier than this, though, because the second group actually VOTES more reliably than the first, period.

BUT, the nice, socialist-leaning, compromising, inclusive Democrat (and small-d democrat ) in me sympathizes with the OPís proposal. Despite the math, Iíll probably end up bending over backwards to stroke the Bernie brosí hurt feelings. After all, I agree with nearly all their GOALS, wholeheartedly.
I could have written this myself.

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Just how much of the Sanders backers need to be mollified? We're now seeing he doesn't have that awesome voter turnout ability that we all had to fear losing/angering. I am having a hard time imagining a Bernie win leading to Sanders offering the veep slot to Biden's choice.

The Sanders backers howling outrage over the rigged system/oligarchy are not going to be appeased - probably were never going to vote anyways. Some nods to progressiveness are certainly appropriate. Giving Bernie any choice in the matter is kinda outrageous.
Biden doesnít actually need much from Sanders, other than what gets him past the convention. The jump in turn out that started in 2018 continued through these primaries, and yet during that the youth vote for the most part did not keep up with the jump in participation. Whatever else you say about Bernie Sanders, he can generate an entire stadium full of young, enthusiastic voters, but somehow that doesnít translate to getting all the other kids.

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  #57  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:18 AM
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After Super Tues, it appears that Biden has a significantly greater chance at a plurality of delegates than Bernie, with no other candidate having any chance at all. I'm a Bernie supporter and thus disappointed (and I'll still be rooting for the somewhat low chance of a Bernie comeback), but my disappointment is irrelevant for this thread. I think Biden is a weak candidate and there is a real risk of him losing a significant amount of Bernie supporters to staying home or even voting for Trump for spite (I plan to vote for the Democratic nominee).

It still appears that there is a relatively high chance that Biden fails to get a majority of delegates. I think this could be a positive thing for the prospect of unifying the party, as follows:

Let's assume Biden ends up with ~40-45% of delegates, and Bernie ends up with ~30% or so, with other candidates having all the rest. Biden could almost certainly press for the other candidates' delegates to be released to support him, and it's very likely enough of them would be fine with this (after the first vote) to get him a majority, even without superdelegates. But I don't think this would be the right path. I think the best course of action would be to bring in Bernie and his team and negotiate on what it would take for them to support Biden's candidacy. This might mean a VP that is acceptable to Bernie (perhaps Stacey Abrams?), along with some cabinet spots for Bernie allies (and maybe Warren too, for extra unity), and maybe some policy concessions (maybe a more robust public option, postal banks, or all the other things that they're not terribly far apart on). I'm sure that the trolls among Bernie's supporters (a very, very small number, relatively speaking) would still be unhappy (they're trolls, after all), but I believe the great majority are much more like me, and would be much more willing to accept and support Biden beyond merely at the ballot box if we felt that our candidate, with a strong 2nd place performance, had very significant input into the Biden administration and campaign.

The alternative -- ignoring the Bernie supporters and pushing through with other delegates would almost certainly work to get Biden the nomination, but I think it would result in a much lower likelihood of winning in the general. Like it or not, many, many Democrats (millions?) support Bernie, and the nominee will need the support of most of them to beat Trump.
Is that what Bernie would have done? I doubt it.
  #58  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:20 AM
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If you aren't interested in their votes, perhaps. I'd prefer if as many Democrats (and others!) as possible vote for the Democratic nominee, but YMMV.
And if they don't, what will you do? Vote for Trump? Stay home? What?

You are basically admitting that Bernie supporters are really not committed to supporting the Democratic candidate, they are only committed to supporting THEIR candidate who happens to be running as a Democrat.

I don't know if it's better to bite the bullet and cut off the cancer of the left wing tea party or to appease them and encourage future hostage taking.
  #59  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:21 AM
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Where are the rest of those delegates going?

There are 3979 total delegates, 1991 needed for the nomination. A total of 105 are pledged to people other than Biden/Sanders and I can't see many more going to them. There's no way the delegate count can end up like you are saying. Only 3% of the delegates are going to anyone beside Biden/Sanders. The worst case scenario is %49 vs %48, with the remaining 3% to the folks who've dropped out.

This ignores the super delegates for now. Or am I missing something in your scenario?
It looks like it will be pretty decisive. but who knows.
  #60  
Old 03-11-2020, 10:24 AM
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But then what? Do they ignore the Bernie supporters, or do they try and give them a stake in the candidate and thus the general election?
Beating Trump isn't enough of a stake?

Every Biden supporter I know was ready to swallow hard and vote for Bernie. It sounds like the same can't be said for the Bernie supporters. And we will have to pay Danegeld every cycle.
  #61  
Old 03-11-2020, 11:22 AM
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And if they don't, what will you do? Vote for Trump? Stay home? What?

You are basically admitting that Bernie supporters are really not committed to supporting the Democratic candidate, they are only committed to supporting THEIR candidate who happens to be running as a Democrat.

I don't know if it's better to bite the bullet and cut off the cancer of the left wing tea party or to appease them and encourage future hostage taking.
I don't know what you're disputing that I wrote -- I support Bernie and will be voting for the Democratic nominee no matter what. I want to maximize the chances of the Democratic nominee (probably Biden) beating Trump, and thus I suggested this strategy. If you disagree that this will maximize this chance, then feel free to disagree, and I'd be interested in reading why you disagree. But if you just want to shit on Bernie supporters, I'd recommend another thread -- this is a thread for how to help maximize the chance that the eventual candidate (probably Biden) can bring the losing candidate's supporters onboard.
  #62  
Old 03-11-2020, 12:02 PM
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I don't know what you're disputing that I wrote -- I support Bernie and will be voting for the Democratic nominee no matter what. I want to maximize the chances of the Democratic nominee (probably Biden) beating Trump, and thus I suggested this strategy. If you disagree that this will maximize this chance, then feel free to disagree, and I'd be interested in reading why you disagree. But if you just want to shit on Bernie supporters, I'd recommend another thread -- this is a thread for how to help maximize the chance that the eventual candidate (probably Biden) can bring the losing candidate's supporters onboard.
I posted this in another thread:

You know what would help and finally, maybe for the first time in his political career, make Bernie a statesman? If on that debate stage with Biden, Bernie turned to his supporters and asked them to cast their vote for the emerging Dem nominee, Joe Biden.

He can talk about progress and change and helping the Democratic party become a more progressive entity. He can talk about the fact that this is just the first of many elections in which the progressive ideas win over the traditional conservative values of the past. He can talk about moving towards a more just society. There is a lot he can do and say that will help, not just Biden in the immediate term, but all progressives in the medium and long term. That's what he can do. And Biden has already extended his hand to all Bernie supporters. Is Bernie going to embrace that offer, or do Bernie and all his followers need another angry ideological lecture about democratic socialism?

Your thoughts?
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  #63  
Old 03-11-2020, 12:14 PM
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I posted this in another thread:

You know what would help and finally, maybe for the first time in his political career, make Bernie a statesman? If on that debate stage with Biden, Bernie turned to his supporters and asked them to cast their vote for the emerging Dem nominee, Joe Biden.

He can talk about progress and change and helping the Democratic party become a more progressive entity. He can talk about the fact that this is just the first of many elections in which the progressive ideas win over the traditional conservative values of the past. He can talk about moving towards a more just society. There is a lot he can do and say that will help, not just Biden in the immediate term, but all progressives in the medium and long term. That's what he can do. And Biden has already extended his hand to all Bernie supporters. Is Bernie going to embrace that offer, or do Bernie and all his followers need another angry ideological lecture about democratic socialism?

Your thoughts?
While Biden is in the driver's seat, I don't see a need for Bernie to give up so soon. About half of the delegates are still out there. It's very unlikely Bernie can change things around quickly enough, but it's still possible. I hope, for this debate (and the 1st one-on-one debate so far) he goes all out for his case for the nomination. It probably won't be enough, but improbable things happen occasionally.

If he's tired of campaigning, sure, I hope he does something like this. But if he still feels like campaigning, then he should continue until he feels his dwindling chances are down to zero.
  #64  
Old 03-11-2020, 02:48 PM
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While Biden is in the driver's seat, I don't see a need for Bernie to give up so soon. About half of the delegates are still out there. It's very unlikely Bernie can change things around quickly enough, but it's still possible. I hope, for this debate (and the 1st one-on-one debate so far) he goes all out for his case for the nomination. It probably won't be enough, but improbable things happen occasionally.

If he's tired of campaigning, sure, I hope he does something like this. But if he still feels like campaigning, then he should continue until he feels his dwindling chances are down to zero.
This election is all about beating Trump. When it looked like Bernie was in the driverís seat and Biden in 4th or 5th place, I was ready to support Bernie. In fact, I voted for Bernie in early voting in the Texas primary. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I think that Bernie supporters should support Biden.

All that being said, if Bernie wants to continue to campaign, more power to him if he sticks to a positive campaign. Medicare for all? Higher minimum wages? Free college? I support him talking about all those things till the cows come home.

However, if he starts in about ďcorporatistsĒ or ďthe establishmentĒ, or even worse starts in against Biden personally, thatís going to piss a lot of people off. So letís have a debate between the far left and the moderate left. Thatís great. But letís not have a debate about Biden himself. Trump will do that and more, and if Bernie starts helping Trump out on that front, thatís just going to piss people off and not win Bernie any points.
  #65  
Old 03-11-2020, 02:56 PM
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I posted this in another thread:

You know what would help and finally, maybe for the first time in his political career, make Bernie a statesman? If on that debate stage with Biden, Bernie turned to his supporters and asked them to cast their vote for the emerging Dem nominee, Joe Biden.

He can talk about progress and change and helping the Democratic party become a more progressive entity. He can talk about the fact that this is just the first of many elections in which the progressive ideas win over the traditional conservative values of the past. He can talk about moving towards a more just society. There is a lot he can do and say that will help, not just Biden in the immediate term, but all progressives in the medium and long term. That's what he can do. And Biden has already extended his hand to all Bernie supporters. Is Bernie going to embrace that offer, or do Bernie and all his followers need another angry ideological lecture about democratic socialism?

Your thoughts?
Iíd need Bernieís magic unicorn. Shitbag Sanders definitely believes that only he can fix it. Heís no different than Trump.
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  #66  
Old 03-11-2020, 03:02 PM
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I’d need Bernie’s magic unicorn. Shitbag Sanders definitely believes that only he can fix it. He’s no different than Trump.
Wow. I sure hope most older Democrats are more like my parents, who welcome diversity of thought within the party, and want young progressives to be reliable Democratic voters, than like you, who apparently value settling scores with other progressives more than anything else.
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  #67  
Old 03-11-2020, 03:10 PM
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Iíd need Bernieís magic unicorn. Shitbag Sanders definitely believes that only he can fix it. Heís no different than Trump.
You can't possibly believe this. I mean, Bernie is certainly an ideologue and you can make the argument that he's been smoking too much of his own product. But the two could not be less alike.
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  #68  
Old 03-12-2020, 11:36 AM
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And if they don't, what will you do? Vote for Trump? Stay home? What?

You are basically admitting that Bernie supporters are really not committed to supporting the Democratic candidate, they are only committed to supporting THEIR candidate who happens to be running as a Democrat.

I don't know if it's better to bite the bullet and cut off the cancer of the left wing tea party or to appease them and encourage future hostage taking.
And yet Bernie still has nearly half the delegates awarded so far. If a fake Democrat who wants to blow up the establishment is getting nearly half your party's votes, perhaps the party should take notice and make some fundamental changes? Or else in 2024 when there's no Bernie Sanders to excite people anymore, the DNC will run yet another white male nursing home resident with tired 20th Century ideas and wonder how they lost to an inexperienced nitwit like Ivanka Trump.
  #69  
Old 03-12-2020, 11:40 AM
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And yet Bernie still has nearly half the delegates awarded so far. If a fake Democrat who wants to blow up the establishment is getting nearly half your party's votes, perhaps the party should take notice and make some fundamental changes? Or else in 2024 when there's no Bernie Sanders to excite people anymore, the DNC will run yet another white male nursing home resident with tired 20th Century ideas and wonder how they lost to an inexperienced nitwit like Ivanka Trump.
Ah, yes, the DNC conspiracies. The Bernie Bro is strong in this one.
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  #70  
Old 03-12-2020, 11:45 AM
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Or else in 2024 when there's no Bernie Sanders to excite people anymore, the DNC will run yet another white male nursing home resident with tired 20th Century ideas and wonder how they lost to an inexperienced nitwit like Ivanka Trump.
Have you met Bernie Sanders?

- white male nursing home resident? Check.
- 20th Century Socialist ideas? Check.
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  #71  
Old 03-12-2020, 11:50 AM
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And yet Bernie still has nearly half the delegates awarded so far. If a fake Democrat who wants to blow up the establishment is getting nearly half your party's votes, perhaps the party should take notice and make some fundamental changes? Or else in 2024 when there's no Bernie Sanders to excite people anymore, the DNC will run yet another white male nursing home resident with tired 20th Century ideas and wonder how they lost to an inexperienced nitwit like Ivanka Trump.
Bernie is a 78 white male.
  #72  
Old 03-12-2020, 02:14 PM
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Bernie is a 78 white male.
He's a minority. But it is true that he's old. His ideas aren't geriatric though, and that's the point. Biden would feel right at home in the Nixon administration.
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Ah, yes, the DNC conspiracies. The Bernie Bro is strong in this one.
What conspiracies? I contend the DNC is incompetent, not the mastermind behind some conspiracy.
  #73  
Old 03-12-2020, 02:36 PM
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He's a minority. But it is true that he's old. His ideas aren't geriatric though, and that's the point. Biden would feel right at home in the Nixon administration.

What conspiracies? I contend the DNC is incompetent, not the mastermind behind some conspiracy.
You mentioned that the DNC will run candidates and you should know that isnít true.

And, Nixon went ballistic when he found out Biden won in 1972. Admittedly, it was more because Nixon hated that he had no coattails even with the blowout win.
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  #74  
Old 03-12-2020, 02:52 PM
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Heís no different than Trump.
If it came down to the two of them, I guess I should vote for Trump then? Maintain the status quo, at any rate, as opposed to disrupting the system just for more of the same?
  #75  
Old 03-12-2020, 04:08 PM
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You mentioned that the DNC will run candidates and you should know that isnít true.
They clearly have favorites. Biden was their favorite in 2016 too until he refused to run. Then they backed Clinton. It was obvious and plain to see. I'm not saying they're rigging votes, but they have a lot of control over the message that is getting to voters. They, and their friends in the media, send the message that Biden is "more electable" though in head to head polls Bernie beats Trump by higher margins. They make sure everyone knows "Biden has this locked up", to curb future Sanders votes. They did the same with Clinton last time. They make it out like Bernie is a crazy Che Guevara Marxist for advocating policies nearly all of Europe adopted over fifty years ago. If you think Russian trolls could sway the 2016 election, you have to understand how messaging like this can shape a primary election.

I'm not even saying they don't have the right. It's their party, they could throw darts to decide who they'll nominate. If they want to have state by state elections to decide the nominee while having a clear favorite of their own who they support in every way they can short of rigging elections, so be it. I'm just saying that they're making a poor choice. Many people who support Bernie are not Democrats. Democrat lifers would make that out like a bad thing. But why the hell would the party not want to court a large bloc of enthusiastic unattached voters? They can keep running boring, "everything is fine, there's nothing to fix" moderates if they want, but I think it's extremely foolish. As an example of the opposite tack, the RNC was pretty clearly against Trump in 2016. If they had a favorite, I'd say they were gunning for Jeb. But they failed to prevent Trump's nomination and the DNC succeeded in obtaining Clinton's. You know how well that worked out. I think putting their thumb on the scale was bad for the party and they're making the same mistake again. So get ready for a second Trump term.

But whatever. It's their party. I never liked that Bernie joined them, and clearly the Democratic party didn't like it either. I would have been far more enthusiastic if he had stayed independent. He wouldn't have had much chance of winning that way, but it turns out he didn't have much chance of winning by hitching his wagon to the DNC either. Oh well, hindsight is 2020. You guys can keep your "Don't like it? What are you gonna do, vote for Trump?" party all for yourselves.
  #76  
Old 03-25-2020, 05:31 PM
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538 had a good chat on this topic:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...to-beat-trump/

And the suggestion came up that Biden should select a VP that energizes younger voters, which is pretty close to my recommendation.
  #77  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:14 PM
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*goes to Urban Dictionary to see if "progressive revolution" is now code for spending your child support payments on crack and strippers*
Well, it certainly redistributes wealth.
  #78  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:30 PM
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Unifying Democrats is one thing. Unifying Democrats and Sanders supporters, who aren't necessarily Democrats is another thing. Shit, Sanders, Democratic candidate, isn't a Democrat.
  #79  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:44 PM
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Meh, they make almost every suggestion in those chats. That said, no that isn't close to your recommendation. You called for Bernie having a veto on the VP choice and giving his allies cabinet positions. What they talked about in the chat was pleasing under 45 voters, not pleasing Sanders voters.

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-25-2020 at 06:44 PM.
  #80  
Old 03-26-2020, 12:04 AM
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He's a minority.
In what way?
  #81  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:02 AM
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In what way?
Jewish & atheist...(?)
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