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  #251  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:03 AM
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I can totally see the point of not wanting to "taint" a locale with the association of a virus. I think that should probably stop. I don't think it's necessarily racist however. It could be used that way, but so could a lot of things.
  #252  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:06 AM
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It's massively arrogant to do it when the spread of the virus was the fault of the Chinese government. I'm glad we have a president who stands up to politically bullies.
Oh wait, I thought the virus was OBAMA’S fault!

Sure seems to me that both China and Trump started in the same place: denial and coverup. China has moved on to public health responses, while Trump is stuck in denial and blame game. Oh wait, is Mike Pence still trying to pray this all away?

Pro tip for you: if you’re trying to defend Trump’s incompetence, don’t raise the issue of arrogance. As soon as you mention it, your point totally backfires, as though the baboon of a President has a shred of humility or sense in him.
  #253  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:08 AM
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It's massively arrogant to do it when the spread of the virus was the fault of the Chinese government.
The spread in the US is partially the fault of the president, who dismantled the National Security pandemic team, who spread false rumors that worries about the virus were a "Democratic hoax", and who failed to take it seriously and take action within the country until long after he should have based on public knowledge and expert recommendations.
  #254  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:17 PM
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Oh wait, I thought the virus was OBAMA’S fault!
Typical to create a straw man to attack someone. That's a clear sign that you can't refute an argument and therefore create another argument in which to do so.

The United States of America was accused of mass murder by a country who actually committed the act.

That's bullshit and you know it's bullshit. Yet here you are whining about the verbal pusb-back on such a monstrous accusation.

Last edited by Magiver; 03-26-2020 at 04:18 PM.
  #255  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:02 PM
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Typical to create a straw man to attack someone. That's a clear sign that you can't refute an argument and therefore create another argument in which to do so.

The United States of America was accused of mass murder by a country who actually committed the act.

That's bullshit and you know it's bullshit. Yet here you are whining about the verbal pusb-back on such a monstrous accusation.
Jesus H Christ, this is not a bio weapon attack unleashed by the Chinese on America. Talk about a conspiracy theory.
  #256  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:29 PM
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Typical to create a straw man to attack someone.
Perhaps you missed this news, in which the Dear Leader of the 42% blamed Obama: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...-of-tests.html

Quote:
That's bullshit and you know it's bullshit. Yet here you are whining about the verbal pusb-back on such a monstrous accusation.
I’m more concerned about Trump’s stunning incompetence which will clearly lead to thousands, tens of thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands of deaths compared to what would probably happen under any other functioning adult had he/she been elected.

But sure, you can get all bent out of shape about Chinese propaganda. Maybe there should be a trigger warning on each issue of China Daily? Would that help?
  #257  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:19 PM
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Hell, the only Chinese propaganda I've seen anywhere has been in this thread from the people who are champing at the bit to blame anyone but Trump.
  #258  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:20 AM
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Typical to create a straw man to attack someone. That's a clear sign that you can't refute an argument and therefore create another argument in which to do so.
[...]
Yet here you are whining about the verbal pusb-back on such a monstrous accusation.
Any response to my last post yet? I have repeatedly denounced the Chinese minister for supporting a dumb conspiracy theory, and suggested he should be fired.
You seem incapable of doing anything like this with Trump.
  #259  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:19 AM
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Hell, the only Chinese propaganda I've seen anywhere has been in this thread from the people who are champing at the bit to blame anyone but Trump.
To be fair, it's also in SmartAleq's link here.
  #260  
Old 03-27-2020, 04:21 PM
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After trump has dropped it, Mike Pompeo still is trying to throw "Wuhan virus" on the wall. From the article it sounds like the G7 were having none of it:

"The German magazine Der Spiegel, quoting anonymous diplomats, said that the joint statement was scuttled by Pompeo's insistence that it use the term "Wuhan virus" -- a formulation frowned upon by medical professionals who say it is stigmatizing.

Pompeo did not deny the report when asked about it, saying that each minister would speak separately but that they had a "common understanding" on the health and economic crisis caused by the "Wuhan virus.""
Since the 1918 "Spanish" Flu originated in his home state, perhaps we should start calling it the "Kansas Pig-fuckers Flu" in his honor...

Last edited by jasg; 03-27-2020 at 04:21 PM.
  #261  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:49 PM
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Jesus H Christ, this is not a bio weapon attack unleashed by the Chinese on America. Talk about a conspiracy theory.
The country making a claim of Bioterrorism is China. And it's the same country that kept a lid on it so it spread quicker around the world.
  #262  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:58 PM
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The country making a claim of Bioterrorism is China. And it's the same country that kept a lid on it so it spread quicker around the world.
Stop acting like the Chinese government let the virus spread on purpose.
  #263  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:10 PM
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I’m more concerned about Trump’s stunning incompetence which will clearly lead to thousands, tens of thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands of deaths compared to what would probably happen under any other functioning adult had he/she been elected.
Despite the fact that we dominate the world in air travel by a considerable amount and should have much higher numbers we are doing much better than other countries of similar economic power.

Had China not kept it quiet the world would be in a much better spot. But you're goal in life seems to be to blame Trump instead of China. Go figure.
  #264  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:19 PM
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Stop acting like the Chinese government let the virus spread on purpose.
If a government silences someone who is trying to warn the world then that's a deliberate purposeful act.

And they apologized to the family of the whisteblower for their improper response.

Last edited by Magiver; 03-27-2020 at 06:22 PM.
  #265  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:47 PM
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Had China not kept it quiet the world would be in a much better spot. But you're goal in life seems to be to blame Trump instead of China. Go figure.
China could have shouted impending doom from the rooftops from Day One and Trump's response would have been exactly the same, because Trump is an idiot who doesn't listen.

Last edited by Smapti; 03-27-2020 at 06:47 PM.
  #266  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:47 PM
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If a government silences someone who is trying to warn the world then that's a deliberate purposeful act.

And they apologized to the family of the whisteblower for their improper response.
Chinese government bears responsibility for not doing enough to contain the virus when it first became aware of it.

Does Trump & Co. bear similar responsibility for not responding to the threat in a more pro-active and competent manner?
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  #267  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:21 PM
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Despite the fact that we dominate the world in air travel by a considerable amount and should have much higher numbers we are doing much better than other countries of similar economic power.

Had China not kept it quiet the world would be in a much better spot. But you're goal in life seems to be to blame Trump instead of China. Go figure.
Cato the censor had a reason to end all his senate musings with "Carthago delenda est", but everyone pointed out that it was peculiar or a silly thing to repeat when, for example, the issues at hand were Roman affairs that eventually looked as dumb when being at war. Things like abolishing taxes in Rome and giving their citizens a Circus Maximus.
  #268  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:23 PM
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Despite the fact that we dominate the world in air travel by a considerable amount and should have much higher numbers we are doing much better than other countries of similar economic power.

Had China not kept it quiet the world would be in a much better spot. But you're goal in life seems to be to blame Trump instead of China. Go figure.
Your goal is to find a scapegoat - literally anyone other than Trump.

China’s initial coverup did not prevent Senator Richard Burr from telling politics donors on February 27 that the shit was about to hit the fan. If Burr knew this, then Trump had to know, too.

And yet, Trump was telling people on that date that, and I quote, “It’s going to disappear.”

China didn’t make Trump ignorant.
  #269  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:19 PM
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Chinese government bears responsibility for not doing enough to contain the virus when it first became aware of it.
Their responsibility was one of communication. Once it became impossible to hide they did the right thing but there is still doubt their numbers are accurate which further suppressed the seriousness of it.

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Does Trump & Co. bear similar responsibility for not responding to the threat in a more pro-active and competent manner?
We're currently doing much better than most industrialized countries. We were the first to test a vaccine on humans which began on 16-Mar. Flights from China were shut down at the beginning of February. We're using supercomputers for modeling treatmentss to the virus. We're using laws meant for war-time production to increase supplies.
There is substantial cooperation between state and federal agencies in matters involving the removal of red tape. Medical ships are being positioned at hot spots on the East and West Coast. the FDA is looking at mask sterilization technology.

Now lets look at the help from the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi delayed the badly needed rescue funds by a week so she could fund bullshit like the Kennedy center.
  #270  
Old 03-27-2020, 11:26 PM
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Your goal is to find a scapegoat - literally anyone other than Trump.

China’s initial coverup did not prevent Senator Richard Burr from telling politics donors on February 27 that the shit was about to hit the fan. If Burr knew this, then Trump had to know, too.

And yet, Trump was telling people on that date that, and I quote, “It’s going to disappear.”

China didn’t make Trump ignorant.
I'm pretty sure he knew considering he had already shut down flights from China at the beginning of February.

Your goal is to hate Trump and fill in the narrative that fits your agenda. The difference between us is that I don't give fuck one about Trump. But I don't hate him just because of the marching orders of the Democratic party.

Last edited by Magiver; 03-27-2020 at 11:26 PM.
  #271  
Old 03-28-2020, 12:01 AM
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China alerted WHO on 31 December. The Chinese CDC was alerted on 27 December

Wuhan and other big cities in Hubei Province went into lock down on 23 Jan.

With the benefit of hindsight, maybe just maybe it's realistic to think that slapping a hardcore quarantine on 60 million people could have been done one or two weeks earlier. Do you agree or disagree? If you don't agree, when do you think it would have been realistic to enact a quarantine on 60 million people.

trump announced a national emergency on 13 March. With the benefit of hindsight, do you agree or disagree this should have been announced weeks earlier?
  #272  
Old 03-28-2020, 12:53 AM
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Their responsibility was one of communication. Once it became impossible to hide they did the right thing but there is still doubt their numbers are accurate which further suppressed the seriousness of it.
You are still unaware that Trump also trusted Xi Jinping early on? And also refused to listen to the national intelligence sources about what was going on?


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We're currently doing much better than most industrialized countries.


https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...us-end/608719/

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We were the first to test a vaccine on humans which began on 16-Mar.
Actually, Moderna that is in Boston, has worldwide backing from many nations coming from the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI), and the reason for the unprecedented speed for the first vaccines is thanks in large part to early Chinese efforts to sequence the genetic material of Sars-CoV-2.

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Flights from China were shut down at the beginning of February.
Uh..

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekea.../#186c83b0481b
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Speaking to the nation last night, U.S. President Donald Trump said a ban on Europeans entering the United States is necessary because Europe hadn’t banned flights from China early as the U.S. had done.

“The European Union failed to take the same precautions and restrict travel from China and other hot spots as a result a large number of new clusters were seeded by travellers from Europe,” he said.

But virtually every part of this statement is untrue.

Italy imposed a ban on flights from China on 31 January, immediately after a Chinese couple in Rome tested positive for the virus. The U.S. began to restrict flights from China four days later. But while Italy enacted a full ban, the U.S. policy was only a restriction, with wide exemptions.
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We're using supercomputers for modeling treatmentss to the virus.
You mean the same computers that are disparaged by the right wing media when used to investigate Climate Change?

But seriously too, Europe, Japan and even China are also doing similar efforts and all are sharing information, the lesson here is that this is a worldwide effort. Something that Nationalistic Trump always disparages.

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We're using laws meant for war-time production to increase supplies.
And again, thanks to trump, about a week, if not a month too late. Just a few days back:

https://www.latimes.com/politics/sto...dical-supplies
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But Trump has not made actual use of the powers granted in the Korean War-era law known as the Defense Production Act, even though state governors, health experts and lawmakers of his own party have appealed to the administration to employ that authority to bulk up production of medical equipment and supplies, and just as critically, to ensure that they’re distributed to areas of most urgent need.

Trump’s reluctance to take a more assertive role -- instead forcing states to fend for themselves and bid against one another -- has created confusion and competition. And it has at times tied the hands of his own administration officials designated to lead the White House response to the pandemic.
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There is substantial cooperation between state and federal agencies in matters involving the removal of red tape.
Again, weeks if not months late.

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Medical ships are being positioned at hot spots on the East and West Coast.
Late too, and they might not be a great idea:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/craigho.../#6311467d1b04
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To be blunt, the ships are being sent out to serve as little more than a morale boost, a ready photo opportunity or a nice backdrop for a political rally. It is the wrong thing to do. Ineffective symbolism is the last thing the nation needs right now.

The Basic Strategy Is Wrong:

The idea, according to sources that talked to USNI News, is that the hospital ships will provide relief for coastal hospital systems, with the ships taking on non-COVID-19 cases and allowing the on-shore hospitals to focus on the patients most critically ill from the virus.

With no rapid testing, screening mechanisms or antivirals available, employing these ships as alternate hospitals is madness. While the old ships, converted San Clemente class oil tankers, are excellent trauma centers, they lack strong capabilities to handle infectious disease. If a single infectious person enters these ships, the vessels could easily become disease incubators, weighing down an already over-burdened medical system.
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the FDA is looking at mask sterilization technology.
The best reports I have seen is that they "might" work. But even if fast approved, it will be days or weeks before being deployed in enough numbers.

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Now lets look at the help from the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi delayed the badly needed rescue funds by a week so she could fund bullshit like the Kennedy center.
Remember when I said before that Trump likes to dump supporters under the bus when convenient? This is no different.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/25/polit...lus/index.html
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The President said Wednesday it was a provision from the Democrats that initially started at $35 million, but they negotiated to $25 million and he approved it because he is a "fan" of the facility.

"That's not a good soundbite but that's the way life works. With that being said, the Kennedy Center, they do a beautiful job, an incredible job," Trump said during the daily White House briefing.

He said the coronavirus pandemic has devastated the center.

"They have tremendous deficits that are built up, I mean, this thing has been devastating to it. So, I didn't have problem with it but this was a request from the Democrats because of the fact that they have a facility that's essentially closed," he added.
BTW, I also used conservative sources like Forbes here, one can hate Trump also by not using "marching orders of the Democratic Party".

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-28-2020 at 12:57 AM.
  #273  
Old 03-28-2020, 02:13 AM
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Great post GIGObuster!

@Magiver, I'll ask a third time: Do you have any criticism whatsoever about the president and the administration's response to this virus?
Bearing in mind, the objective facts are: that Trump was happy to handwave it as a "democratic hoax", and for weeks that something that will just disappear soon; clearly shooting from the hip while knowing full well that his words will influence millions of people's behaviour on a life or death issue.
And that the US now has the highest reported Covid cases of any country (yes, the numbers are sketchy since tests performed per capita varies a lot country to country, but it's unlikely that from a God's eye view the US is doing great right now).

And do not respond with a Whatabout. I really want to see if you're capable of criticizing Trump.
  #274  
Old 03-28-2020, 06:03 AM
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@Magiver, I'll ask a third time: Do you have any criticism whatsoever about the president and the administration's response to this virus?
My guess: “I wish the Great Leader had moved quicker to save this country by blaming China harder and taking less responsibility.”
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Old 03-28-2020, 06:36 AM
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Clearly the solution is air dropping thousands of gallons of hand sanitizer on virus hot spots and parachuting doctors on minibikes to treat the remaining patients.

CMC fnord!
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Old 03-28-2020, 01:34 PM
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Clearly the solution is air dropping thousands of gallons of hand sanitizer on virus hot spots and parachuting doctors on minibikes to treat the remaining patients.

CMC fnord!
Remember how Benghazi happened because Obama refused to say the magic words "radical Islamic terrorism"?

Same principle. The only way to end the pandemic is the mass utterance of "China virus" into any available microphone.
  #277  
Old 03-28-2020, 02:23 PM
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@Magiver, I'll ask a third time: Do you have any criticism whatsoever about the president and the administration's response to this virus?
No. Not at this time. I've been following what is going on. This is different than saying I'm following what Trump's doing. The Federal Government has done everything it's supposed to do as well as most of the states and municipalities. We're not China and therefore cannot weld people's doors shut.

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And that the US now has the highest reported Covid cases of any country (yes, the numbers are sketchy since tests performed per capita varies a lot country to country, but it's unlikely that from a God's eye view the US is doing great right now).
We are way below the death rate per capita of other industrialized countries despite having an overwhelmingly higher number of passenger flights than any other country. We should have a much higher death rate because of that.
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Old 03-28-2020, 02:56 PM
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No. Not at this time. I've been following what is going on. This is different than saying I'm following what Trump's doing. The Federal Government has done everything it's supposed to do as well as most of the states and municipalities. We're not China and therefore cannot weld people's doors shut.
Ok, good to finally get a response.

Let's go into some of the details. Should trump have restored a pandemic response team? While he was handwaving the threat, and implying it was a "democratic hoax" should he not have also done something, anything to prepare for the worst?
Should he be allowing the CDC to give press briefings?

Quote:
We are way below the death rate per capita of other industrialized countries despite having an overwhelmingly higher number of passenger flights than any other country. We should have a much higher death rate because of that.
This is similar to the excuses people throw out for why the US can't have gun control, UHC etc. Some reason the US is Exceptional(-ly bad)

Let's examine this excuse a little.

Firstly, why is it death rate per capita but flights as an absolute number? Is it because if we did flights per capita the US is far, far from the top, and in fact many of the countries that have succeeded in containing this virus have several times more flights per head of the population? ETA: And includes countries with more flights from China.

Secondly, what is so special about flights anyway? Considering the majority of US flights are domestic, why should they be considered high risk compared to, say, high speed rail within a country?

Last edited by Mijin; 03-28-2020 at 02:59 PM.
  #279  
Old 03-28-2020, 03:06 PM
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Also also...you just switched from cases to deaths because the latter number compares more favorably. Let's hope it stays that way, but that's not what the projections are saying.
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Old 03-28-2020, 03:56 PM
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No. Not at this time. I've been following what is going on. This is different than saying I'm following what Trump's doing. The Federal Government has done everything it's supposed to do as well as most of the states and municipalities. We're not China and therefore cannot weld people's doors shut.
So, there's nothing that could have been done better in the US response? This is the textbook execution that can never be surpassed? That a national emergency that required until 13 March to be declared despite seeing the infection spread throughout the world?

@magiver Do you think it might have helped to keep Covid-19 from spreading in Ohio if there had been a serious national response and ubiquitous testing starting from when Trump shut flights from China?

As of 16 March, the entire state of Ohio (~12 Million population) had a total of 1,200 -1,500 tests and 37 confirmed cases. Ohio went to stay at home on 23 March (1132 confirmed cases) 10 days after trump declared a national emergency.

Do you think it would have helped slow the spread of Covid-19 in Ohio if there was more than 1 test available per 10,000 people at that time? Was 1 test per 10,000 people an adequate supply to have on hand to protect the population of Ohio and neighboring states, as well as provide meaningful data as to the spread of virus?

Ohio department of health Covid-19 dashboard (note: it's not called the Wuhan Dashboard, the China Dashboard, nor what is likely to be said by those same wingnuts in private as the Chink Dashboard): https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/por...home/dashboard

According to the powerpoint download from the Ohio Dept of Health as of 26 March:
1137 confirmed cases
20,149 tested (5.6% positive rate)
186 confirmed health care workers (6.11% of total confirmed)

What's your opinion on having 6.11% of total confirmed cases be among the health care workers? Do you think that high of a rate is because the healthcare workers are implement PPG incorrectly because they lack training and experience? Or do you think that healthcare workers lack PPG supplies? For each healthcare worker that tested positive, how more more infections spread and how many have needed to go into sel-quarantine and not be on the front lines of this health crisis?
  #281  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:06 PM
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No. Not at this time. I've been following what is going on. This is different than saying I'm following what Trump's doing. The Federal Government has done everything it's supposed to do as well as most of the states and municipalities. We're not China and therefore cannot weld people's doors shut.
. Looking at Trump's bloviating "leadership" one gets results like this:

https://news.yahoo.com/senator-says-...&ICID=ref_fark
Quote:
WASHINGTON — Sen. Chris Murphy, a Connecticut Democrat, says that Trump administration officials declined an offer of early congressional funding assistance that he and other senators made on Feb. 5 during a meeting to discuss the coronavirus.

The officials, including Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar, said they “didn’t need emergency funding, that they would be able to handle it within existing appropriations,” Murphy recalled in an interview with Yahoo News’ “Skullduggery” podcast.

“What an awful, horrible catastrophic mistake that was,” Murphy said.

On Feb. 5, Murphy tweeted: “Just left the Administration briefing on Coronavirus. Bottom line: they aren't taking this seriously enough. Notably, no request for ANY emergency funding, which is a big mistake. Local health systems need supplies, training, screening staff etc. And they need it now.”
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We are way below the death rate per capita of other industrialized countries despite having an overwhelmingly higher number of passenger flights than any other country. We should have a much higher death rate because of that.
That is, right now, an argument from ignorance.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...n-be-deceiving
Quote:
A study published last week estimated that in Wuhan, the chance that someone who developed coronavirus symptoms would die was actually 1.4%.

In South Korea, though, "they have been doing massive testing" since the first cases were detected, Chowell says. As a result, that nation has been able to count infected people with mild symptoms as well as those who become severely ill. That may be one reason the case fatality rate in South Korea has remained below 2%.
Quote:
An overburdened health care system may also be contributing to the high case fatality rate in Italy. "During those high peaks where the health care systems can be overwhelmed, there may not be enough people or ICU beds or ventilators to be able to provide the critical care that is needed," Lawrence says.
Quote:
Ultimately, it will take a different sort of test to assess how lethal coronavirus has been, Lawrence says. Most current tests only detect active infections — when the virus is still present in the body. But a different type of test — now being developed but still probably months away from wide use — can reveal whether a person has ever been infected. And that is what scientists need to know to establish the true denominator for coronavirus and to find the true case fatality rate.

In the U.S., it's likely that the case fatality rate from coronavirus will end up somewhere between 0.5% and 1%, once a broad cross-section of the population has been tested, Lawrence says.

But that's no reason for the nation to relax, he adds.

"To put it into perspective, that's 5 to 10 times more fatal than flu," Lawrence says, a disease that kills between 12,000 and 61,000 people a year.
To counter things like that, the typical reaction from Trump is....

'Lets remove NPR's funding!'
  #282  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:02 PM
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Going back to the topic of China's control of the narrative and the OP question "Or because China has more clout and the international community is more reluctant to anger China? "
Dr. Bruce Aylward Assistant Director-General of the WHO in an interview where first he says he didn't hear a question about the WHO and Taiwan, then deliberately ends the call and finally praises China as a response to questions about Taiwan, it's obvious that he is acting with China's interests in mind:

World Health Organization (WHO) Assistant Director-General Bruce Aylward avoided answering questions about Taiwan Saturday by pretending not to catch the question a Hong Kong reporter asked repeatedly.
“Will the WHO reconsider Taiwan’s membership?” asked Yvonne Tong.
Her question was met with an awkward silence prompting a “hello?” from the interviewer.
“I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear your question, Yvonne,” said Aylward.
“Let me repeat the question,” Yvonne said back.
“No, that’s okay. Let’s move on to another one then,” said Aylward.
When Yvonne refused, Aylward ended the interview and logged off.


For those that don't know it's China's policy that Taiwan doesn't exists as an independent nation and that is the reason it has blocked Taiwan from the WHO and other UN agencies.

Taiwan has accused the World Health Organisation of succumbing to political pressure from mainland China after the island failed to receive an invitation to a major international meeting.
Beijing sees self-governing democratic Taiwan as part of its territory awaiting reunification and has used its clout to diminish the island’s presence on the world stage since Beijing-sceptic President Tsai Ing-wen took power in May 2016.
Last year was the first time in eight years that Taiwan was not granted access to the World Health Assembly (WHA), the WHO’s main meeting.

The White House said on Saturday that China’s aviation authorities had sent letters to 36 foreign airlines including US firms demanding they refer to Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macau as Chinese territories.
“This is Orwellian nonsense and part of a growing trend by the Chinese Communist Party to impose its political views on American citizens and private companies,” the White House said.
  #283  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:44 PM
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Again:
The theory that the WHO did not call the virus "Wuhan virus" for political reasons has been completely debunked -- China does not have access to a time machine to go back to 2015.
So any mud about the WHO being reluctant to upset China, is nothing to do with anything.
  #284  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:51 PM
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To Ale:

Actually, many over here does know about that too. Again as I said before, China's rulers do deserve condemnation, but that is not what the OP was about. You are talking about a related but different narrative.

After noticing that after 2015 the rules on naming where changed, the answer for the OP is that no, China is not controlling the naming of it; and the USA is a member of the WHO, so as it was pointed before: the dishonorable Chinese rulers do have a point about the naming of the virus. Not much of a valid point about other things, and Trump also trusted the Chinese leadership on many other related items with really no valid reason to do that.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-28-2020 at 11:54 PM.
  #285  
Old 03-29-2020, 12:55 AM
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China does not have access to a time machine to go back to 2015.
...or do they?!
  #286  
Old 03-29-2020, 02:22 PM
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Ale,Taiwan (Republic of China) and China (People's Republic of China) were born out of the same civil war, with neither entity recognizing the sovereignty of the other. This mutual non-recognition continues to this day.

Here is a pretty good Wiki explanation:
The position of the PRC is that the ROC ceased to be a legitimate government upon the founding of the former on 1 October 1949 and that the PRC is the successor of the ROC as the sole legitimate government of China, with the right to rule Taiwan under the succession of states theory.[13]

The position of PRC is that the ROC and PRC are two different factions in the Chinese Civil War, which never legally ended. Therefore the PRC claims that both factions belong to the same sovereign country—China.

Regardless, Taiwan - China relations have nothing to do with Covid -19 naming. Continuously bringing this up to obfuscate the appalling lack of leadership by trump is the right wing playbook.
  #287  
Old 03-29-2020, 03:02 PM
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The spread in the US is partially the fault of the president, who dismantled the National Security pandemic team, who spread false rumors that worries about the virus were a "Democratic hoax", and who failed to take it seriously and take action within the country until long after he should have based on public knowledge and expert recommendations.
The procedures to follow are already set for respiratory illnesses; I don't think a particular team that would spend most of its time sitting on its ass would add much. YMMV.

The "hoax" to which the President refers is the Democrats claiming his administration is not doing a good job containing the virus.
Dana Milbank was probably the first to lie with this tweet: “Remember this moment: Trump, in South Carolina, just called the coronavirus a ‘hoax.’”

I also remember the screeching when the travel ban from China was announced. That was, what, the end of January?
  #288  
Old 03-29-2020, 03:10 PM
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The procedures to follow are already set for respiratory illnesses; I don't think a particular team that would spend most of its time sitting on its ass would add much. YMMV.

The "hoax" to which the President refers is the Democrats claiming his administration is not doing a good job containing the virus.
Dana Milbank was probably the first to lie with this tweet: “Remember this moment: Trump, in South Carolina, just called the coronavirus a ‘hoax.’”
Actually even there, it is clear that Trump did lie about doing a good job. It was a Trump lie to claim that the Democrats reporting the bad job Trump was doing was a hoax. Read the many cites already made in this thread.


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I also remember the screeching when the travel ban from China was announced. That was, what, the end of January?
This (in the context of Trump "doing a good job") was also debunked in post #272

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-29-2020 at 03:11 PM.
  #289  
Old 03-29-2020, 06:40 PM
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Magiver, in case you missed it, today Ohio has 1,653 cases (+516 cases since yesterday) and 29 deaths. I take no pleasure in pointing out it is growing fast in your neck of the woods.

Do you think that when trump slammed on the travel ban, it might have been a good time to have testing available for anyone in Ohio that wanted it? And a system in place in Ohio for contact tracing? Or was it a best practice to put off getting testing in place in Ohio until a 2-3 weeks ago?

sps49sd, trump made one arguably good move by cutting direct travel from China. At that time, there were no processes in place to actually trace and follow up the people that came in from China. My wife came in 2 days after the US airlines shut down flights, so routed thru Korea and SFO to Seattle. Besides filling out at form on entry to the US, and receiving a "things to know" card from the CDC, that was it. The travel ban didn't cover Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. Christ, my old company, which is right in the thick of it with dozens of factories in China including Wuhan, implemented temperature checks for all employees going in and out of the factories before chinese new year and the wuhan lockdown. They also made it mandatory for US based employees if traveling from any Asian country or contact with anyone that had traveled from an Asian countries needed to self quarantine in a hotel or at home. This was at the end of January or about 2 months before Ohio went to a mandatory lock down.

Maybe, just maybe, if Ohio had been as serious as my company, and if trump had gone full war time president to get testing implemented across the nation by early Feb, then we might not have had to shut down the entire economy to shelter in place. This is not a "good job" or a track record to "rate myself a 10."

Last edited by China Guy; 03-29-2020 at 06:42 PM.
  #290  
Old 03-30-2020, 01:28 PM
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Actually even there, it is clear that Trump did lie about doing a good job. It was a Trump lie to claim that the Democrats reporting the bad job Trump was doing was a hoax. Read the many cites already made in this thread.
Whether Trump is doing a good job, bad job, or needs improvement is an opinion that can be shaded by points of view, but claiming Trump said the coronavirus concern is a hoax- a claim I was responding to- is false, as shown by the included cite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
This (in the context of Trump "doing a good job") was also debunked in post #272
Post 272 debunked jack shit. Trump said 'Europe', Forbes says 'Italy'. Not equivalent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Guy View Post
...sps49sd, trump made one arguably good move by cutting direct travel from China. At that time, there were no processes in place to actually trace and follow up the people that came in from China. My wife came in 2 days after the US airlines shut down flights, so routed thru Korea and SFO to Seattle. Besides filling out at form on entry to the US, and receiving a "things to know" card from the CDC, that was it. The travel ban didn't cover Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. Christ, my old company, which is right in the thick of it with dozens of factories in China including Wuhan, implemented temperature checks for all employees going in and out of the factories before chinese new year and the wuhan lockdown. They also made it mandatory for US based employees if traveling from any Asian country or contact with anyone that had traveled from an Asian countries needed to self quarantine in a hotel or at home. This was at the end of January or about 2 months before Ohio went to a mandatory lock down.

Maybe, just maybe, if Ohio had been as serious as my company, and if trump had gone full war time president to get testing implemented across the nation by early Feb, then we might not have had to shut down the entire economy to shelter in place. This is not a "good job" or a track record to "rate myself a 10."
I may be short of nationwide specifics, but SF has a Chinese- American plurality population, many employers and employees here are Chinese- American, and everyone I know returning from the PRC (the Mainland, if it makes anyone happier) spent time quarantined before returning to work. I can ask for details, but okay, "Travel Ban" is shorthand for "not flying back to SFO and Uber-ing home".

I'm definitely not rating Trump 10/ 10 or a perfect 5/ 7 or anything, but he did decently well while enduring an impeachment everyone involved knew would go nowhere. I also doubt that HRC would have done better overall, and probably worse (I see no way that this country would have had tests available across the country, for one).

Last edited by sps49sd; 03-30-2020 at 01:29 PM.
  #291  
Old 03-30-2020, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Whether Trump is doing a good job, bad job, or needs improvement is an opinion that can be shaded by points of view, but claiming Trump said the coronavirus concern is a hoax- a claim I was responding to- is false, as shown by the included cite.
Good thing I did not said that, and my point stands since you did not counter what I cited about Trump doing a bad job. Trump did a bad job and continues to do a bad job.

However, even Forbes did not believe that Trump was referring to just the Democratic accusations of not doing a good job.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevede.../#35f3e6e70b82
Quote:
The Political Channel Of Communication

At a rally in South Carolina on February 28, several days after the press conference with medical experts, President Trump at a packed rally in North Charleston, defended his administration’s handling of the outbreak. He accused the Democrats of “politicizing the 2020 coronavirus”, calling it “their new hoax” after the Russian investigation and impeachment.

At a White House press conference on Saturday, Trump was asked to defend his use of the word “hoax” in reference to the 2020 coronavirus outbreak. The president said—implausibly—that he had been referring to “the politicization of the coronavirus, not the outbreak itself.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Post 272 debunked jack shit. Trump said 'Europe', Forbes says 'Italy'. Not equivalent.
Last time I checked, Italy is part of the European Union. (The point of the article was also to report that by then it was too late for the USA, just like for Italy so any self praise from Trump is even less impressive). While it is true that other EU members delayed a response, they followed suit, but their point that it was not going to stop the arrival of the disease in the USA was a valid one, because it is more likely that it came from the reality that Trump did not impose a ban but it was a limited restriction from Chinese travelers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
I may be short of nationwide specifics, but SF has a Chinese- American plurality population, many employers and employees here are Chinese- American, and everyone I know returning from the PRC (the Mainland, if it makes anyone happier) spent time quarantined before returning to work. I can ask for details, but okay, "Travel Ban" is shorthand for "not flying back to SFO and Uber-ing home".

I'm definitely not rating Trump 10/ 10 or a perfect 5/ 7 or anything, but he did decently well while enduring an impeachment everyone involved knew would go nowhere. I also doubt that HRC would have done better overall, and probably worse (I see no way that this country would have had tests available across the country, for one).
You missed the memo, the latest from the administration is that Trump did not do well because of the impeachment, I will have to thank them for reminding all that they are acknowledging that Trump is not capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-30-2020 at 02:52 PM.
  #292  
Old 03-30-2020, 11:09 PM
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everyone I know returning from the PRC (the Mainland, if it makes anyone happier) spent time quarantined before returning to work. I can ask for details, but okay, "Travel Ban" is shorthand for "not flying back to SFO and Uber-ing home".
That is simply incorrect about the "travel ban". When the travel ban started, CDC guidance was in a nutshell to avoid going out and avoid crowds. It was not a hard quarantine. Local health departments were supposed to follow up and check in.

Got a cite or better yet a reliable TV spot from trump announcing the travel ban and clearly that all travelers arriving from China must hard quarantine at home for 2 weeks? Didn't think so.

Here's a report on the first evacuees: Nearly 200 Americans evacuated from Wuhan, the epicenter of the deadly coronavirus outbreak, landed in Southern California Wednesday. They are staying at an air reserve base near Los Angeles voluntarily for up to 14 days to be checked out.

Patient zero was discovered on 19 Jan, testing confirmed 20 Jan, trump travel ban went into effect on 27 Jan.

My wife flew Shanghai, Seoul, SF and then seattle since direct flights were shut down on Feb 2. No temperature check in the US. Filled out a form. No follow up from local health department.

The large high tech companies that I have personal knowledge of were haphazard. Some managers insisted that people work from home for two weeks, others didn't care. I had a meeting at Microsoft on 14 Feb with someone who had returned from China about 10 days previously. She was a little bit worried because she was at SEATAC the same day as patient zero.

Keep working that playbook that trump was all over this stuff from the get go. Wuhan has even reopened shopping malls.
  #293  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:13 AM
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Actually even there, it is clear that Trump did lie about doing a good job. It was a Trump lie to claim that the Democrats reporting the bad job Trump was doing was a hoax. Read the many cites already made in this thread.
I hate Trump as much as anyone, but very VERY often the left-wing media puts words in his mouth that he did not say.
(Obviously the right-wing liars do this to the Ds in spades. But we want to be better than them, don't we?)

Did Trump ever suggest that the virus epidemic was a "hoax"? If he did, show a real cite. If he didn't, retract the claim.

"It's OK if we say Trump called the virus a hoax because he called something else a hoax and we need simple claims for simple minds."
If this will work in the general election, Go for it! But we don't need this at SDMB!
  #294  
Old 03-31-2020, 03:20 AM
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The thing is, the answer is somewhat up for grabs because Trump was just rapid firing nonsense at his rally.

He largely handwaves the threat of the virus, then says there was an impeachment hoax, then says he's doing a great job and that "this" is another Democrat hoax.

I think it's open to interpretation. It's better we move on to the actual issues than try to dissect Trump's words.
There's no doubt Trump has been dismissive of the threat of the virus, let's leave it at that.

Last edited by Mijin; 03-31-2020 at 03:21 AM.
  #295  
Old 03-31-2020, 09:51 AM
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That is simply incorrect about the "travel ban". When the travel ban started, CDC guidance was in a nutshell to avoid going out and avoid crowds. It was not a hard quarantine. Local health departments were supposed to follow up and check in.

Got a cite or better yet a reliable TV spot from trump announcing the travel ban and clearly that all travelers arriving from China must hard quarantine at home for 2 weeks? Didn't think so.
I didn't state that.
HHS Secretary Azar made the announcement, and Trump issued the "Proclamation on Suspension of Entry as Immigrants and Nonimmigrants of Persons who Pose a Risk of Transmitting 2019 Novel Coronavirus" on January 31, 2020. If you want to type everything in quotes when everyone else is being imprecise with "travel ban", go ahead.

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...Keep working that playbook that trump was all over this stuff from the get go. Wuhan has even reopened shopping malls.
Don't tell me what bullshit the official Party news services are saying.
  #296  
Old 03-31-2020, 09:59 AM
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The thing is, the answer is somewhat up for grabs because Trump was just rapid firing nonsense at his rally.

He largely handwaves the threat of the virus, then says there was an impeachment hoax, then says he's doing a great job and that "this" is another Democrat hoax.

I think it's open to interpretation. It's better we move on to the actual issues than try to dissect Trump's words.
There's no doubt Trump has been dismissive of the threat of the virus, let's leave it at that.
And Trumpeteers like Trish Regan lapped it up.
  #297  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:02 AM
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Don't tell me what bullshit the official Party news services are saying.
I live in China. In my city (Shanghai) basically everything is open again, with the exception of schools. Restaurants, malls, gyms, museums, factories...apart from the face masks it looks like business as usual.

I understand that for some people, the only thing they know about China is "the Chinese government lies". Which is true; the Chinese government has, and still does, lie.
They may well be lying about the total number of people that died due to this.

But pretending large numbers of people with corona don't have it is beyond even their powers. Plus it doesn't even make sense; if community spread is still happening, why reopen the malls and wilfully make the problem much worse? What's the point?

Last edited by Mijin; 03-31-2020 at 10:04 AM.
  #298  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:53 AM
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I live in China. In my city (Shanghai) basically everything is open again, with the exception of schools. Restaurants, malls, gyms, museums, factories...apart from the face masks it looks like business as usual.

I understand that for some people, the only thing they know about China is "the Chinese government lies". Which is true; the Chinese government has, and still does, lie.
They may well be lying about the total number of people that died due to this.

But pretending large numbers of people with corona don't have it is beyond even their powers. Plus it doesn't even make sense; if community spread is still happening, why reopen the malls and wilfully make the problem much worse? What's the point?
The point is the economy. You should know this. Saying it's not happening is one thing, but sitting there saying that there is no point for your government to do this is just dishonest. Of COURSE there is a point. Even the CCP wouldn't do something as dangerous as putting people back to work if it weren't desperate. You know this too, as you know that the CCPs unwritten contract with the Chinese people is that it gives them prosperity in return for complete control. Right now, they are definitely not looking good on that. Even using official CCP numbers for the economy it's bad. Extrapolating the real numbers, it's a fucking disaster, on top of everything else that's happened in the last year or so. So, they are taking a calculated risk, and, frankly, are covering up their numbers...just like they do with everything else, including the economic figures already mentioned.

You know this. I know this. The only one's who don't are those who really are ignorant of what happens in China, and they are mainly on your side because they are slurping up the CCP propaganda with both hands.
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  #299  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:19 AM
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The point is the economy. You should know this. Saying it's not happening is one thing, but sitting there saying that there is no point for your government to do this is just dishonest.
It wouldn't be good for the economy though, would it? The population all getting sick again wouldn't help. It doesn't make sense to open a mall today only to have to close factories for months.

If we're allowed to suggest reasons that don't make sense, then OK: they're reopening the malls so we'll know what dark matter is.

Quote:
The only one's who don't are those who really are ignorant of what happens in China, and they are mainly on your side because they are slurping up the CCP propaganda with both hands.
It's exactly the opposite way round. I am living in China. I'm telling you what I'm seeing in a city of 24 million people. It's direct evidence of what's happening overall.
You are the one who is wedded to a particular concept of "China lies, therefore this must be a lie too".
  #300  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:33 AM
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It wouldn't be good for the economy though, would it? The population all getting sick again wouldn't help. It doesn't make sense to open a mall today only to have to close factories for months.
Are you asking me as me, or asking me as speculating what the CCP might think about this, considering there are other things involved from their perspective than just public health?

From my perspective, no...it wouldn't be good in the long run. That said, the only way, right now, to really protect your population is through herd immunity. That means you need to have between 60-80% of your population infected or vaccinated. As far as I know, a tested and proven vaccine is something like 12 months out, though if you were willing to skip some steps and push something through faster you could. China could and perhaps plans too do that. Or, they are looking at the numbers. 80% of those infected get a mild version. Of the 20% that don't, only around 3-5% die, the rest just need elevated levels of treatment. It's all about the curve, they might be thinking...if you can get the curve to stretch out, then you can put people back to work and not have your economy completely tank, and maybe hold onto power. Personally, I think what they are doing is playing a dangerous game. Our idiot president seems to be leaning towards this as well, so it's not just the CCP here. It's a balancing act...if people stay home your economy tanks. But you flatten and stretch out the curve. If they go back to work, well, the economy picks up, but you put your population at risk. The CCP might feel they can basically pick people out who are sick and force quarantine them while still having people working and making money. It's a gamble.

Quote:
It's exactly the opposite way round. I am living in China. I'm telling you what I'm seeing in a city of 24 million people. It's direct evidence of what's happening overall.
You are the one who is wedded to a particular concept of "China lies, therefore this must be a lie too".
Sure you are. But my son's partners family ALSO lives in China...and not in as nice a city as the one you live in. And they say something totally different, when they can say anything at all. Western journalists have been sent packing from China, and many of the bloggers I followed in China have gone quiet. Several have been put in forced quarantine...for their own good of course. So...I think there is more to this than crazy XT ranting about the good CCP and your anecdotes. I think your anecdotes are valid, but like all anecdotes, they only tell part of the story. And though obviously you have access to information outside of China, seeing as how you are posting on this board, you are also subject to your own state run media. The big lie and all that.
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