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Old 11-27-2018, 08:17 PM
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Deontay Wilder vs Tyson Fury


Should be an entertaining fight and not sure who I'm picking. Both fighters have awesome power, but both fighters also have vulnerabilities.

Fury is probably a better technical boxer than Wilder, but he hasn't faced top-level competition since 2015 and it's difficult to assess his skills. Wilder is a bomber - if he connects, it's over. But he also leaves himself wide open. If Fury can somehow bait Wilder, he could catch him and rock him as he's trying to throw one of his wild overhand rights. But if he mistimes his maneuvers and gets caught, then it's lights out.

If I had to pick a winner, I'd probably go with Wilder mainly because I don't think Fury has had anyone close to his level the past few years. Had this fight taken place in 2015, I would have taken Fury hands-down. But not now. Still, Wilder is facing a powerful puncher if Fury, and Fury is a good technical boxer. Not as good as Joshua, but good enough to win a fight if he's on his game.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:32 PM
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I just think Tyson Fury is a fantastic name for a boxer.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:38 PM
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I just think Tyson Fury is a fantastic name for a boxer.
I second this.

Anyway, you posted. I demand to know your predictions.
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Old 11-28-2018, 02:21 AM
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Fury is a tedious fighter and a person of pretty odious views (religiously-based of course) so I hope he loses.

Whoever wins needs to fight Joshua. Nothing is settled until that happens.
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Old 11-28-2018, 04:19 AM
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I just think Tyson Fury is a fantastic name for a boxer.
Pretty sure he was named after Mike Tyson, with a career path basically set by his family on that basis. So that part is not a coincidence. I wouldn't be surprised if the surname was chosen for similar reasons, but I'm not familiar with the traditions of his community (Irish travellers, I believe). Apologies if you already knew this.

As to the fight, I'm no boxing expert, and I haven't been following the build-up. Is Fury fit, both mentally and physically? Because he spent a large part of his post-Klitschko victory apparently not so. If he isn't, then I wouldn't give him much of a chance. If he is, I'd give him 40%, for the reasons outlined in the OP. What say the bookies?
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Old 11-28-2018, 04:21 AM
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Fury is a tedious fighter and a person of pretty odious views (religiously-based of course) so I hope he loses.
Yes. Agreed on both counts.

If it goes to the cards, Fury will likely have used his superior ring craft and boxing skills to neuter Wilder. This is how he beat Klitschko - bored the beejesus out of him, without really taking any sort of shot, to the point where there was no prospect of a hometown decision for Klitschko. Fury's problem with taking the fight to a decision will be that he'll need two judges at minimum who appreciate boring but excellent defensive work. Wilder may still win a decision purely on activity.

A short fight favours Wilder - as the likeliest outcome in a short fight is that he'll have connected and put Fury on his back.

Somewhat counter to Novelty Bobble, and to answer the question, I reckon Wilder by decision, precisely because it may well not settle anything, even in the event of the winner facing Joshua. If Wilder wins by decision, and Fury can credibly say he outboxed him and was "robbed", Wilder can face Joshua and the winner of that can face Fury whilst he still has some credibility as either a rematch (for Wilder) or potent challenger (for Joshua). An early one-sided knockout doesn't achieve this, as whoever wins Joshua-Wilder can reasonably ignore Fury.

Deeply cynical perhaps - but it's a way for everyone to make off with at least one more huge payday.

Last edited by Cumbrian; 11-28-2018 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 11-28-2018, 06:25 AM
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Deeply cynical perhaps - but it's a way for everyone to make off with at least one more huge payday.
Shame on you, when has cynicism ever been a reasonable approach to heavyweight boxing?

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Old 11-28-2018, 07:00 AM
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Shame on you, when has cynicism ever been a reasonable approach to heavyweight boxing?

Well, quite.

Incidentally, if I'm right and there is a little mini tournament between these three guys, the one left standing will basically be left with Luis Ortiz as a credible challenger. Adam Kownacki and Jarrell Miller are both in the Ring Magazine top 10 and may be in position to challenge eventually.

The one all three of them (Joshua, Wilder, Fury) want no part of is Usyk. If he decides to step up from Cruiserweight, he'll probably beat all three of them with distance to spare.
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:09 AM
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Didn't see the fight but it was a draw. I did see some highlights of a vicious couple of 12th-round knockdowns by Wilder, which Fury somehow managed to survive. Fury apparently out-boxed Wilder, which isn't surprising. Wilder is not really a great boxer and relies on his power to win. Fury is a pretty good boxer who also has good power, but not the same explosive power as Wilder. A rematch seems inevitable.

I think Joshua is a reasonably good bet to beat either of these fighters, though Fury might actually pose the stiffer challenge in some regards, given that he has a size and height advantage and also good boxing skills. He could be an opponent who frustrates Joshua and takes him into later rounds. Wilder just seems to leave himself too wide open to be a good opponent for Joshua's crisp punches and combinations.
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Old 12-02-2018, 03:48 PM
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Didn't see the fight but it was a draw. I did see some highlights of a vicious couple of 12th-round knockdowns by Wilder, which Fury somehow managed to survive. Fury apparently out-boxed Wilder, which isn't surprising. Wilder is not really a great boxer and relies on his power to win. Fury is a pretty good boxer who also has good power, but not the same explosive power as Wilder. A rematch seems inevitable.
Fury has little power, actually Asahi - he's unusually light-handed for such a huge man, but he is technically very good - superb movement that seems outlandish at that weight.
I listened to it on the wireless so haven't seen it yet, but sounds like both fighters did themseves proud. I fancied Wilder to take it - a good boxer beats a good puncher nine times out of ten, but I just thought this was that one time out of ten. Fury's crash diet would have him drowning down the stretch and I thought Wilder would eventually get to him. That happened, but Fury showed huge heart - I did see a clip of that 12th round knockdown, Jesus Christ, he climbed out of his own grave there. Looked like he was sleeping like a baby on the canvas.

Sounds like Fury won the fight by any objective measure, but this is boxing. You want the champ's strap then you go into his back yard and you TAKE IT off him. Can't really say Fury did that with getting sat down two times, but it was still a harsh decision.

Both fighters probably due a reevaulation after this fight - Fury showed astonishing character to come back with that level of performance, plus it was an entertaining fight for a change. More so Wilder, though - you can say he's really limited or whatever, but facts are he went 12 with a far more accomplished technician, was never really hurt or in trouble, and put Fury down twice. I think if they rematch I'd favour him to prevail.
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Old 12-02-2018, 04:26 PM
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I don’t know Wilder well, but reading about him casually he seems like someone who could improve with more training. You can learn boxing skills, it’s hard to learn power.
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Old 12-02-2018, 05:02 PM
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I don’t know Wilder well, but reading about him casually he seems like someone who could improve with more training. You can learn boxing skills, it’s hard to learn power.
There was a good Joe Rogan interview with Fury prior to the fight where he says how on earth is Wilder not better known - 40 fights, dynamite puncher with 39 KOs (39 Bums, mind, but Mike Tyson's rep was built on Bumslaying) WBC HW champ of the world, plus a flamboyant, stylish persona.
You can point to the decreased relevance of boxing in the US, and the days of a societal Ali or Tyson figure are gone, but even so Wilder seems to have a curiously low profile.

Last edited by Busy Scissors; 12-02-2018 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:30 PM
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There was a good Joe Rogan interview with Fury prior to the fight where he says how on earth is Wilder not better known - 40 fights, dynamite puncher with 39 KOs (39 Bums, mind, but Mike Tyson's rep was built on Bumslaying) WBC HW champ of the world, plus a flamboyant, stylish persona.
You can point to the decreased relevance of boxing in the US, and the days of a societal Ali or Tyson figure are gone, but even so Wilder seems to have a curiously low profile.
This is why I wanted to see Wilder-Fury and why I want to see Fury or Wilder against Joshua. I was a huge boxing fan for years but migrated to MMA; now I'm slowly coming back to boxing and these guys in the heavies are why. Honestly, Wilder's boxing sucks...but his spatial ability, his timing, his jab, and his devastating overhand right are keeping him relevant. But I think he'd be savaged by Anthony Joshua.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:15 PM
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I donít know Wilder well, but reading about him casually he seems like someone who could improve with more training. You can learn boxing skills, itís hard to learn power.
Wilder's power comes from him ignoring most boxing technique and throwing his punches with everything he's got. His techniques are designed to put him into a position where he can land one big right hand, because before Saturday most people didn't think anyone could survive it.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:41 PM
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Wilder's power comes from him ignoring most boxing technique and throwing his punches with everything he's got. His techniques are designed to put him into a position where he can land one big right hand, because before Saturday most people didn't think anyone could survive it.
Agreed.

Wilder is not going to change. He does just enough boxing to be able to survive against trained boxers, but he's a high risk, high reward kinda fighter. His fight with Ortiz was a good illustration of this. He eventually took out Ortiz, but not before Ortiz had Wilder in some serious danger, which is the result of Wilder's risky defense. Wilder, to his credit, can take punishment, which is why he gets away with it. But in my estimation, he has yet to face a fighter who can put it all together. Anthony Joshua, in my view, is that guy. A technical boxer, who can set up punches and execute a strategy over the course of several rounds, and who has the accuracy, the timing, and boxing acumen to take a guy like Wilder apart in later rounds.

Fury is a good fighter - a better boxer than Wilder and many other heavies. He's a big guy who obviously possesses a fair amount of natural raw power, but Anthony Joshua's more like Iron Mike Tyson in that his speed and his technique enable him to deliver crisp punches and combinations that just rip through opponents. I don't think Joshua's quite as strong as Mike Tyson was - maybe more like Holyfield. Although not naturally the strongest heavyweight, he has crushing combinations and accuracy and knowledge of the boxing game that will eventually wear opponents out.
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Old 02-23-2020, 09:41 AM
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Fast-foward to 2020.

Fury absolutely tortured Wilder, and finally, Wilder's terrible boxing is exposed.
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Old 02-23-2020, 01:43 PM
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Damn that was brutal - Wilder totally outclassed. Expected way more from him but I guess he basically is that limited - a career haymaker merchant. Brilliant from Fury to crown his comeback.
Fury came in quite a bit heavier than last time at 19 and a half stone and seemed completely comfortable with it, said he felt like a beast. Sounds like his enormous shrinkage down from 400 lb has muddied the waters as to what weight he should be fighting at. He's been lighter in his two keep-busy fights last year and looked awful.

Talk now is that he will honour the rematch clause with Wilder. Take the money I guess if it is there, although I can't see much public appetite for that over the Joshua matchup.
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:32 PM
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Wilder must be suffering brain damage if he as a 230 lb man blames a 40lb costume for wearing down his legs (and not his relentless pacing back and forth in his locker room). He is blaming everyone and everything but himself. Tyson Fury will be quite pleased to add a few more tens of millions to his cashstack to brutally kick his ass again.

https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/...tume-wore-legs

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Deontay Wilder said an elaborate outfit he donned on his ring walk wore him down so much that he didn't have the legs to withstand Tyson Fury in their heavyweight title fight Saturday night.
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:45 PM
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I watched the fight last night (thanks Youtubers with iPhones!) and I thought both guys looked like terrible boxers. Evander Holyfield or a similarly skilled pugilist would have destroyed either of them IMO.
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Old 02-25-2020, 03:05 AM
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I watched the fight last night (thanks Youtubers with iPhones!) and I thought both guys looked like terrible boxers. Evander Holyfield or a similarly skilled pugilist would have destroyed either of them IMO.
Lol. Wilder was a 6'6 230lb physical beast and Fury is 6'9 270. Either one of them would destroy Holyfield on his best day.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:58 AM
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Lol. Wilder was a 6'6 230lb physical beast and Fury is 6'9 270. Either one of them would destroy Holyfield on his best day.
Holyfield beat some big fighters in his day. I don't think it's nearly this clear.
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Old 02-25-2020, 05:26 AM
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Wilder must be suffering brain damage if he as a 230 lb man blames a 40lb costume for wearing down his legs (and not his relentless pacing back and forth in his locker room). He is blaming everyone and everything but himself. Tyson Fury will be quite pleased to add a few more tens of millions to his cashstack to brutally kick his ass again.

https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/...tume-wore-legs
Desperate stuff. The costume excuse is LOL but he's letting himself down with his comments about Breland throwing in the towel. His trainer (Deas) is obv out of his depth and a yes man, given Wilder has had 44 fights under his tutelage and doesn't know how to box.
Mark Breland was a great fighter himself and would not have thrown the towel in lightly - took responsibility and did Wilder a huge service there.
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Old 02-25-2020, 06:57 AM
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Watching the fight, I thought it was basically over in the third and was surprised it went into the seventh. Wilder's corner did exactly the right thing throwing in the towel as Wilder was just standing there, not even doing a good job defending himself and not punching back. If the towel hadn't come in, the ref needed to stop it.
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:40 AM
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IMO, Wilder has a legitimate beef with his trainer for throwing in the towel, and if I were him I would sack the guy. Assuming, that is, that he's telling the truth when he says that he had given specific instructions that under no circumstances were they to throw in the towel.

I'll grant that Wilder was very unlikely to win the fight, and that he had the possibility of injury if he continued. But he still had a non-zero chance of victory, and every fighter faces the possibility of injury. That's the risk that these guys take on themselves in the hope of great rewards, and it's their decision to make. It's not the trainer's place to override his boss's decision on this, and if you're an employee who disobeys specific instructions from the boss in a key situation, you deserve to be fired.

On another note, when did this business of boxers making these grand entrances with over-the-top ridiculous costumes start? Is it the influence of pro wrestling?
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:06 AM
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Watched it live. I had predicted a Wilder KO. My goodness, was he exposed in this fight. And I 100% disagree that his trainers did him wrong by throwing in the towel. He literally backpedaled into the corner and offered no offense while Fury leveled a barrage of attacks. Honestly, they could have thrown that towel earlier, but Wilder is one tough son of a gun. After the busted ear drum in the 3rd round he was Bambi on ice. Amazing he could stand after that punishment.

The only disservice Wilder's trainers have done him is they never taught him to box. They all just relied on that big right hand.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:32 AM
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It's not the trainer's place to override his boss's decision on this
On the contrary, it's exactly the corner's place to protect their fighter's health and well being. The fighter may not like it, and they may have their wishes, but a fighter isn't in the best position to evaluate the long term effects of their decisions. That's why there's someone in place who isn't actively being hit in the head during a fight.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:44 AM
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Fury had the superior strategy. Wilder is a hesitant puncher and wasn't prepared for Fury coming right at him. Neither fighter should be proud of their boxing skills in that fight but right now Fury is the undefeated heavyweight champ, and any disputes to that title are ridiculous.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:56 AM
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On the contrary, it's exactly the corner's place to protect their fighter's health and well being. The fighter may not like it, and they may have their wishes, but a fighter isn't in the best position to evaluate the long term effects of their decisions. That's why there's someone in place who isn't actively being hit in the head during a fight.
That "someone in place" would be the referee, and/or the ringside doctor.

If the fighter himself wants to authorize his corner to override him and throw in the towel based on the notion that he won't be in a position to make a coherent decision, then that's his prerogative. But if he doesn't want to authorize it then that's his prerogative too.
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:53 AM
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That "someone in place" would be the referee, and/or the ringside doctor.

If the fighter himself wants to authorize his corner to override him and throw in the towel based on the notion that he won't be in a position to make a coherent decision, then that's his prerogative. But if he doesn't want to authorize it then that's his prerogative too.
I expect there are professional ethical standards for boxing trainers, and I'd expect those ethical standards would require trainers to throw in the towel when appropriate to protect the fighter's health, regardless of the fighter's wishes. If there are no such ethical standards, there should be.

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Old 02-26-2020, 11:27 AM
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Wilder must be suffering brain damage if he as a 230 lb man blames a 40lb costume for wearing down his legs
It looked to me like neither fighter ever heard of leg day.
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:42 PM
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Fury had the superior strategy. Wilder is a hesitant puncher and wasn't prepared for Fury coming right at him. Neither fighter should be proud of their boxing skills in that fight but right now Fury is the undefeated heavyweight champ, and any disputes to that title are ridiculous.
Curious what you and others didn't like about what you saw from Fury. As you said, he had the far superior strategy (in that he actually HAD a strategy) and I think executed it as perfectly as could be expected.
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Old 02-26-2020, 02:14 PM
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That "someone in place" would be the referee, and/or the ringside doctor.

If the fighter himself wants to authorize his corner to override him and throw in the towel based on the notion that he won't be in a position to make a coherent decision, then that's his prerogative. But if he doesn't want to authorize it then that's his prerogative too.
I believe, if you want to be annoyingly technical about it, that the referee is the sole arbiter of the fight and is the only person authorized to stop the contest.

The seconds and the doctor can ask the referee to stop the fight, but the referee is the one to make the final call.

Of course, Wilder is free to hire whomever he likes to be his seconds for the next fight with Fury, the one he may actually be healthy enough to participate in thanks to the actions of his current team.
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Old 02-26-2020, 02:51 PM
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I believe, if you want to be annoyingly technical about it, that the referee is the sole arbiter of the fight and is the only person authorized to stop the contest.

The seconds and the doctor can ask the referee to stop the fight, but the referee is the one to make the final call.
I think it depends on the jurisdiction. Under some commissions, only the referee can stop the fight (although he nearly always follows the recommendation of the ringside physician), in others the doctor and/or the seconds can stop the fight.

In the second Louis-Schmeling fight, Schmeling's corner tried to throw in the towel because Schmeling was being horribly beaten (Louis broke his spine with a body punch), but the referee threw the towel back out (but stopped the fight a few seconds later). I believe that was under the New York State Athletic Commission at the time.

Obviously it wasn't the only fight that did it, but Ali was so punch-drunk as to be nearly incapacitated when he retired. And a major reason was his fight with Larry Holmes, who hammered him nearly non-stop for ten rounds and Ali's cornermen kept sending him back out, hoping for a miracle. It never happened - Ali landed about three punches in the whole course of the fight, while Holmes committed premeditated murder on him with straight lefts and right hand smashes to the head. Finally Angelo Dundee, who often remarked "you can't tell Ali nothing" managed to overrule the other yes-men and hangers-on in the corner and get the referee to stop the beating. You can hear him screaming at the beginning of the eleventh "I'm the chief second, and I'm stopping the fight!"

The tragic thing was, you couldn't tell Ali nothing. He fought again, losing by a wide margin to mediocre heavyweight Trevor Berbick, and then retired into the quivering fog of Parkinsonism.

There is a short story by Jack London called A Piece of Steak. Superficially it is about boxing, but really it is about getting old. In it, the protagonist, a nearly washed-up heavyweight named King, thinks to himself that a man has a certain number of fights in him. Maybe he has ten, maybe twenty, maybe fifty. But he fights his fights, and then he's done. Rest doesn't change that, changing trainers doesn't change that, nothing changes it. You fight your fights, and then you're done.

Ali tried to keep going after that. Because nobody could tell Ali nothing. And at the end, he couldn't understand you anyway even if you did.

Regards,
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Old 02-26-2020, 03:04 PM
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Curious what you and others didn't like about what you saw from Fury. As you said, he had the far superior strategy (in that he actually HAD a strategy) and I think executed it as perfectly as could be expected.
He's a clumsy and sloppy puncher. He had Wilder rocked early on and should have been able to take him out early by getting himself under control but he was almost as off balance as Wilder was. Wilder's corner threw in the towel when Wilder finally got hit by two punches in a row. A guy as big as Fury doesn't need to be that accurate of a puncher, but a good heavyweight could take him out if he's going to fall forward after wild punches. This was a departure from his usually defensive style.
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Old 02-27-2020, 08:45 AM
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Re the costume excuse, I agree that Wilder would be better served by not harping on it, but only because anything that smacks of excuse making after losing a fight looks bad. Just suck it up and answer back by winning the rematch. But ISTM that the ridicule over the notion that it could have impacted his legs may not be warranted.

True, he's a big guy, but 40 pounds is still a lot. That's about 17 percent of his body weight, which is a lot to be carrying around for over a half hour.

But here's the significant point. It's not like Wilder is saying his legs were so shot that he couldn't walk after that. He obviously could. But if you're in a fight against a top level 6'9" 270 pound fighter, you need every last bit of strength and endurance in your legs that you can have, and even a very small amount of fatigue can make a difference. (I also don't get why some people think the fact that he trained with the added weight refutes his point - the opposite, if anything.) And it's not like he would have necessarily noticed the impact if he tried on the suit the day before or whatever, since at that time he didn't turn around and fight for his life against Fury.

Of course, he has only himself to blame, and he should have thought of that beforehand. Basically all I'm saying is that from a purely technical standpoint ISTM that it's possible that that amount of weight before a fight could have an impact.

On another note, some people are claiming that Fury had his gloves on incorrectly, based on some video allegedly showing that his gloves were flapping about loosely and at odd angles. Hard to imagine that this is legit, but FWIW, some detail and video here.
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Old 02-27-2020, 10:31 AM
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On another note, some people are claiming that Fury had his gloves on incorrectly, based on some video allegedly showing that his gloves were flapping about loosely and at odd angles. Hard to imagine that this is legit, but FWIW, some detail and video here.
He may have been slapping with his gloves, not making a fist inside them, and the ref should have warned him about that. Didn't look like it gave him any advantage, but Wilder's corner should have noticed and mentioned it.
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