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  #151  
Old 02-18-2020, 05:25 PM
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Yankees’ Judge says Astros should be stripped of 2017 title:
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“You cheated and you didn’t earn it,” Judge said Tuesday after the Yankees’ first full-squad workout. “That’s how I feel. It wasn’t earned. It wasn’t earned the way of playing the game right and fighting to the end and knowing that we’re competing, we’re competitors. The biggest thing about competition is laying it all out on the line, and whoever is the better player, better person comes out on top. To know that another team had an advantage that, nothing you can really guard against, I just don’t feel like that’s earned.”
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“It affected a lot of games, no matter what anybody says,” Judge said. “It affected the game big time. People lost jobs, people lost money, people lost a lot of things important to them.”

No players were punished by MLB.

“I wasn’t a fan of the punishment, I thought that was a little weak for a player-driven scheme,” Judge said, “that no players involved got any punishments.”

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-18-2020 at 05:25 PM.
  #152  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:17 PM
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I'll take that action in a heartbeat. The fact it dropped a lot in 2019 is evidence it will NOT drop by even more in 2020. 2019 had really bad early weather - April was arguably the worst weather MLB has ever had - and a very unusual level of competitive imbalance.
I also predict expansion teams within three years....like dangling a shiny object in front of the fans.
  #153  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:26 PM
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I'm fine with that. More places should have baseball. I don't know what owners and stadiums you think will have teams, though.

Of course, to repair market imbalance, the best places to put them would be New York, LA, and New England.
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  #154  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:49 PM
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Manfred said the WS trophy's a hunk of metal. LOL! That's striking exactly the right tone.

This scandal ain't goin away, and the reason is that there's not enough transparency. The blanket immunity guarantee was a mistake. They could have offered lesser penalties: a suspension for a few games as opposed to a year-long ban, but there's no accountability and the rest of the players, teams, and fan-bases justifiably feel screwed.
  #155  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:11 PM
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I'm fine with that. More places should have baseball. I don't know what owners and stadiums you think will have teams, though.

Of course, to repair market imbalance, the best places to put them would be New York, LA, and New England.
I wanted in the past to move the Rays to Brooklyn....but everything is going to be chaos, so thats probably not a good idea.
  #156  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:32 PM
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Manfred said the WS trophy's a hunk of metal. LOL! That's striking exactly the right tone.

This scandal ain't goin away, and the reason is that there's not enough transparency. The blanket immunity guarantee was a mistake. They could have offered lesser penalties: a suspension for a few games as opposed to a year-long ban, but there's no accountability and the rest of the players, teams, and fan-bases justifiably feel screwed.
I think the only solution is to strip the title, and have a vacant 2017. Even the Astros have a big decision on whether to leave the banner up in their stadium. It would only infuriate other teams. Make the decision for them. While it wonít make the Dodgers or Yankees feel much better, the rest of the teams will feel that they got their pound of flesh.

Also, doesnít it feel like itís been quite a long time since weíve heard anything about the 2018 Red Sox investigation? Hmmm....
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  #157  
Old 02-19-2020, 09:33 AM
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Sports news these days is full of MLB players denouncing immoral behavior by the Astros. It'll be fun to see which of these upright types wind up suspended for prohibited drug use or for beating their spouses - or even get caught sign-stealing.

Such haughty moral indignation is bound to backfire.
  #158  
Old 02-19-2020, 10:05 AM
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It’s not haughty to see players get away with one of the worst cheating scandals in sports history and not even get a slap on the wrist, and feel upset.
  #159  
Old 02-19-2020, 10:07 AM
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I heard an appropriate nickname for the Houston AL franchise - the Houston Asterisks.
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:07 AM
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Such haughty moral indignation is bound to backfire.
Yeah.

But even ordinary, flawed mortals have some right to be annoyed with elaborate cheating schemes.
  #161  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:40 AM
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This scandal ain't goin away, and the reason is that there's not enough transparency. The blanket immunity guarantee was a mistake. They could have offered lesser penalties: a suspension for a few games as opposed to a year-long ban, but there's no accountability and the rest of the players, teams, and fan-bases justifiably feel screwed.
It is not clear that the players could have been punished even without the immunity. They could argue they were not informed of the restricted against electronic signalling (Astros management did not pass the memo down to the players) and that management supported their actions. The CBA also doesn't detail any punishments. You could argue Manfred should have suspended them anyway even if an arbitrator would inevitably reverse them, but I understand why Manfeld didn't go down that route.

The big mistake by Manfeld is just how long they took to address this. If they took the initial complaints seriously and actrf then, much of this could have been avoided.
  #162  
Old 02-19-2020, 12:43 PM
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I heard an appropriate nickname for the Houston AL franchise - the Houston Asterisks.
The Trashtros
  #163  
Old 02-20-2020, 09:56 PM
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ďOh, after you make your money, after you get your ring, you decide to talk about it?Ē Ortiz said after arriving at the Red Sox spring training complex on Thursday. ďWhy didnít you talk about it during the season when it was going on? Why didnít you say, ĎI donít want to be part of it?í

ďSo youíre looking like a snitch,Ē said Ortiz, who works for the Red Sox under the title special assistant. ďWhy do you have to talk about it after? Thatís my problem. Why did nobody say anything while it was going on?Ē
Fuck off and shut the fuck up, Pappi.
  #164  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:05 PM
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So, he wouldn't have been a snitch if he said something about it in 2017?

Fiers's motivates for coming out are of no interest to me, anyway, and I doubt they are of interest to any baseball fan outside Houston. What matters is the cheaters.
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  #165  
Old 02-21-2020, 10:46 AM
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I think it’s sad that nobody did anything until someone went to the press. The MLB got multiple complaints about the cheating and did nothing but send out a general “please don’t cheat” memo to managers.

It took public embarrassment to force them to do something, and even that ended up being next to nothing.
  #166  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:24 PM
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Little league is starting in my neck of the woods and I am reminded that when 12 year olds cheat we take away their title and their trophy, we ban their managers and league reps all the way up to the level that had (or should have had) knowledge of the cheating.

The more I think about it, the more I think we ought to force a sale. If we're serious about this, we ought to force a sale of the team.
  #167  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:47 PM
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The more I think about it, the more I think we ought to force a sale. If we're serious about this, we ought to force a sale of the team.
Can the Commissioner do that? Although (I think) he determines penalties for violations of the league's rules and other 'egregious' behavior, I would bet the owner's would not stand for such a move. In fact I doubt the league's contractual obligations would even allow it.

ETA: It has to be the Commissioner, no? I don't think the other owners could force them out, again because of contractual obligations.

Last edited by KarlGauss; 02-22-2020 at 03:50 PM.
  #168  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:27 PM
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How did they get rid of Marge Scott?
  #169  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:59 PM
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The owners and commissioner pushed Marge Schott out of ownership of the Cincinnati Reds when she became too overtly racist. The NBA did the same to the Los Angeles Clippers guy. The owners can do it if they’re motivated.
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  #170  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:10 PM
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Can the Commissioner do that? Although (I think) he determines penalties for violations of the league's rules and other 'egregious' behavior, I would bet the owner's would not stand for such a move. In fact I doubt the league's contractual obligations would even allow it.

ETA: It has to be the Commissioner, no? I don't think the other owners could force them out, again because of contractual obligations.
The commissioner works for the owners. He can't force shit.
  #171  
Old 02-23-2020, 08:12 PM
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The owners and commissioner pushed Marge Schott out of ownership of the Cincinnati Reds when she became too overtly racist. The NBA did the same to the Los Angeles Clippers guy. The owners can do it if theyíre motivated.
Yes, it has to be something that really makes them look bad. So far this isnít affecting the owners so they couldnít care less.
  #172  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:46 AM
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It’s only Spring Training and the Astros are already stealing signs!

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ns-confiscated
They also played no regulars during their Grapefruit League road opener...

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington...raining-opener
...which is a rules violation.

https://www.camdenchat.com/2016/3/22...-lineups-fines
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"A minimum of four players who were regulars on the previous year's Major League team or who were platooned on the previous year's Major League team on a regular basis, or who have a reasonable chance to be regulars on the Major League Club's squad during the upcoming season should make road trips. Each of those regulars, excluding pitchers, must play a minimum of three complete innings."
My guess is they’ll skate on that one too. (It’s a minor violation and they would get a fine at most but still.)
  #173  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:57 AM
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MLB is too busy with things that matter, like putting the Nike swoosh on the front of all the uniforms.
  #174  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:16 PM
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Just imagine: What would happen if a pitcher on the mound against the Ass-tros had told the home plate umpire to "listen to the banging" before off-speed pitches were thrown. If the umpire noticed the pattern at the time during the game, what would he do? Stop the game? Batter is called out? File a complaint against Hou-stink?

Last edited by JpnDude; 02-24-2020 at 10:16 PM.
  #175  
Old 02-25-2020, 07:29 AM
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Itís only Spring Training and the Astros are already stealing signs!

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ns-confiscated
They also played no regulars during their Grapefruit League road opener...

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington...raining-opener
...which is a rules violation.

https://www.camdenchat.com/2016/3/22...-lineups-fines


My guess is theyíll skate on that one too. (Itís a minor violation and they would get a fine at most but still.)
What's funny about not using any regulars for that"road" game is that the Nationals and Astros share the same spring training facility. The road trip involved walking from one end of the complex to the other.
  #176  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:03 AM
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Just imagine: What would happen if a pitcher on the mound against the Ass-tros had told the home plate umpire to "listen to the banging" before off-speed pitches were thrown. If the umpire noticed the pattern at the time during the game, what would he do? Stop the game? Batter is called out? File a complaint against Hou-stink?
That's an interesting question because even if the umpire suspects something weird, what can he do? It's a noise, and there's no way he's going to be able to identify what the hell it means or where it's coming from.

Umps have near-plenipotentiary power to do whatever they need to do to fairly enforce the rules, and in theory an ump could, say, toss someone in the stands who was relaying signs, or demand an obvious electronic system be stopped, or threaten to forfeit the game. In theory an ump could bring the hammer down.

The Astros system would have been hard to stop, though, and in any case the evidence is they stopped doing it whenever someone raised a suspicion.
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  #177  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:00 AM
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I think that would be too much to ask of the umpires to be looking for patterns in the noises from the dugout. They're too busy looking for balks and getting ready to watch the results of the pitch or swing and all that.
  #178  
Old 02-25-2020, 09:20 AM
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And it's not like MLB didn't have any suspicions about the Astros, about a dozen teams had lodged complaints about them in the past couple of years.
  #179  
Old 02-25-2020, 10:56 AM
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And it's not like MLB didn't have any suspicions about the Astros, about a dozen teams had lodged complaints about them in the past couple of years.
To be fair, complaints have been lodged in the past couple of years against at least a third (maybe more) of the teams in the league. The Commissioner's office wasn't going to do anything to any team until it got out in the press in a form that couldn't be dismissed or spiked.

Last edited by Great Antibob; 02-25-2020 at 10:57 AM.
  #180  
Old 02-27-2020, 08:37 AM
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It's both sad and reassuring that little league has more integrity than the MLB.
  #181  
Old 02-27-2020, 09:17 AM
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Professional sports leagues are all just a bunch of pirates. I'm astonished at how much money people are willing to fork over to them.
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  #182  
Old 02-27-2020, 01:07 PM
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Professional sports leagues are all just a bunch of pirates.
The most egregious is the MLB. At least in Pittsburgh.
  #183  
Old 02-27-2020, 02:00 PM
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The most egregious is the MLB. At least in Pittsburgh.
Okay, I actually laughed out loud for real.
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  #184  
Old 02-27-2020, 03:04 PM
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The Asterisks are getting hit by pitches this Spring Training at an astounding rate.

Who could have predicted that? Oh, wait. I did.
  #185  
Old 02-27-2020, 03:27 PM
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Pretty sure almost everybody predicted that.
  #186  
Old 02-27-2020, 03:37 PM
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If they didn't, they haven't been paying attention.
  #187  
Old 02-27-2020, 03:45 PM
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Sure. If anyone does anything wrong, hit them. Makes sense.
  #188  
Old 02-27-2020, 07:47 PM
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The Astros are NOT getting hit at "an astounding rate". They've had 7 guys* hit in 5 games (1.4 HBP/game). The Reds are at 6 HBP over 4 games (1.5 HBP/game). There are 3 other teams with 6 players hit (Tigers, Phillies, Cardinals).

Maybe wanna-be MLB pitchers just suck at this point in the season?

No, the Astros' league-leading HBPs in spring training are not retaliation for their cheating

* 1 in the foot. How the hell is that retaliation?

I don't get it, I really don't. "Hey, they cheated, so they should totally face the possibility of career-ending, potentially life-changing (or even fatal) retaliation from a bunch of other millionaires" - most of whom would have participated willingly if they'd been on the 'Stros during those years. Please get a sense of proportion.
  #189  
Old 02-27-2020, 08:35 PM
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The Asterisks are getting hit by pitches this Spring Training at an astounding rate.

Who could have predicted that? Oh, wait. I did.
It's all of one more than the next highest team. I certainly expect there to be some retaliation. But this ain't it.
  #190  
Old 02-27-2020, 09:15 PM
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* 1 in the foot. How the hell is that retaliation?
Maybe instead of retaliation, itís karma.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:28 PM
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Please get a sense of proportion.
Proportion? Fuck that. I want the team dissolved, every player, coach, executive and ball boy put to the sword, their property seized and reduced to bare, salted earth and their families sold into bondage in Canaan.

Proportion that!
  #192  
Old 02-28-2020, 05:53 AM
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I don't get it, I really don't. "Hey, they cheated, so they should totally face the possibility of career-ending, potentially life-changing (or even fatal) retaliation from a bunch of other millionaires" - most of whom would have participated willingly if they'd been on the 'Stros during those years. Please get a sense of proportion.
Upthread, I gave an analogy of cheating in poker. I'm going to use it again. You cheat playing poker, you use cameras to get a glimpse of the other person's cards... your victims may be moved to violence, and you don't get to blame them for it.

The Astros cheated during games... players crave success on the field, they live and die by winning and losing games, and the Astros stole that by cheating. They stole something very precious from their peers, and don't seem the slightest bit remorseful.

However, I'll agree with a sense of proportion, when throwing at these players, they should not go for the head, aim for the mid back or lower. I'd also suggest that 'opener' games are tailor made for a quick drilling of someone, you've already got a starting pitcher warming up, so why not?
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Old 02-28-2020, 10:38 AM
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I fear a vicious cycle now.

Teams pissed at the Astros start throwing at them. The Astros, desperate to avoid injury, feel more compelled than ever to steal signs so that they know when to hit the dirt when those bean balls are coming. A revelation of this new round of sign stealing causes pitchers to increase their efforts to punish the cheaters from the mound.

WHEN WILL IT END?! When Altuve is in a coma?
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Old 02-28-2020, 10:54 AM
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I fear a vicious cycle now.

Teams pissed at the Astros start throwing at them. The Astros, desperate to avoid injury, feel more compelled than ever to steal signs so that they know when to hit the dirt when those bean balls are coming. A revelation of this new round of sign stealing causes pitchers to increase their efforts to punish the cheaters from the mound.

WHEN WILL IT END?! When Altuve is in a coma?
I think this post is satire, but taking it literally for a moment, I donít think a catcher signs for a hit by pitch. Thatís usually the pitcherís own decision.
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Old 02-28-2020, 12:27 PM
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To add to my ongoing disgust, MLB now blacks out the Blue Jays in all of Canada on MLB.TV. So I've cancelled my subscription. Another move towards not growing the game.
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Old 02-28-2020, 12:36 PM
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I think this post is satire, but taking it literally for a moment, I donít think a catcher signs for a hit by pitch. Thatís usually the pitcherís own decision.
No, itís not at all satirical!

[/sarcasm]

Just an attempt at irony.
  #197  
Old 02-28-2020, 02:31 PM
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To add to my ongoing disgust, MLB now blacks out the Blue Jays in all of Canada on MLB.TV. So I've cancelled my subscription. Another move towards not growing the game.
That sucks.
  #198  
Old 02-28-2020, 03:27 PM
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To add to my ongoing disgust, MLB now blacks out the Blue Jays in all of Canada on MLB.TV. So I've cancelled my subscription. Another move towards not growing the game.
So all the Canadian residents too far from Toronto to attend a game never get to see one?
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  #199  
Old 02-29-2020, 09:19 AM
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"The defending American League-champion Houston Astros could be playing with targets on their backs ó metaphorically, at least.In just one week of preseason games, Astros hitters have already been hit by seven pitches, in what's either a statistical fluke or early signs that Houston batters could be targets of baseball vigilantes."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...dence-n1144806
  #200  
Old 02-29-2020, 11:21 AM
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So all the Canadian residents too far from Toronto to attend a game never get to see one?
That's right. If you live in Vancouver, a distance of 3300 KM from Toronto, you are blacked out. Toronto now has the distinction of having the largest blackout area; that used to be the unenviable honor of the Mariners.

Some places are even worse. If you live in Las Vegas you are blacked pout from seeing SIX teams - all five California teams, plus the Diamondbacks, meaning you are perpetually blacked out from 40% of all MLB games despite not being close to any MLB market. (LA is at least four hours away, hardly a trip you could make often.)

This is true everywhere. You're in southern Alabama? Braves, Rays and MArlins are blacked out. Des Moines? Fuck you, pal; you cannot see the Cubs, White Sox, Royals, Cardinals, Twins, or Brewers. Little Rock isn't a reasonable drive to any MLB team, but you cannot watch the Rangers, Astros, Cardinals, or Royals.

Oh, and you live in Hawaii, which is rather a difficult drive to any MLB market? You cannot watch any California team or the Mariners.
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