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  #51  
Old 02-23-2020, 12:59 PM
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It's crazy to compare her to Palin just for being young and popular. If that's enough to be Palin, then Obama was Palin before Palin!

Just ludicrous. Democrats should be excited that such a talented and energetic young politician is an enthusiastic progressive Democrat.
I think she is like Palin in that she is ignorant of major political issues and frequently sounds like an idiot while also having an obvious and instinctive talent for exciting her party base.

Last edited by Lantern; 02-23-2020 at 01:01 PM.
  #52  
Old 02-23-2020, 01:02 PM
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I think she is like Palin in that she is ignorant of major political issues and frequently sounds like an idiot while also having an obvious and instinctive talent at exciting her party base.
I've seen no evidence that she's "ignorant" or "frequently sounds like an idiot". I've seen a few mistakes, but every Democrat has made a few rhetorical mistakes. I've seen no evidence that she's said more dumb or ignorant things over the last year or two than most other prominent Democrats. Occasional mistakes aren't Palinesque. AOC obviously reads and has intellectual curiosity.
  #53  
Old 02-23-2020, 01:24 PM
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She won a primary against a ten-year incumbent who was chair of the House Democratic Caucus, considered to be the probable successor to Nancy Pelosi as Speaker, and boss of the Queens County Democratic organization.

That was no small accomplishment.

And yes, her district is overwhelmingly blue (much like, say, Nancy Pelosi's district), as is just about every district in New York City. So what?

I know her district quite well, having grown up there, and spent half my adult life in the district. The people there aren't idiots, and voters turned out for her rather than the boss who'd held the seat for a decade.

She is persuasive. She's smart and driven and charismatic, and she's not going away. And, like it or not, she, and others like her, are the future of the party.

The old guard better embrace that, or they're going to be left behind.
What’s her future if Bernie is the nominee and gets destroyed?
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  #54  
Old 02-23-2020, 01:28 PM
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What’s her future if Bernie is the nominee and gets destroyed?
Same as everyone else? Deal with it?
  #55  
Old 02-23-2020, 03:37 PM
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Have not read the thread. Don't have to.

Donald Trump is a traitor and a moron that does not care about anyone but himself. That is all that is ALL anyone needs to know before they cast their vote.

If you care about the US and/or the world, you will vote against him. It's not complicated at all.
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  #56  
Old 02-23-2020, 03:49 PM
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What’s her future if Bernie is the nominee and gets destroyed?
If Trump gets another term, how much will it matter what her future is? We'll all be in for a pretty bad future, same as if Biden or Buttigieg is the nominee and gets destroyed.

  #57  
Old 02-23-2020, 04:28 PM
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This good at what? What has she actually done?
Shes really really good at getting people to reach into their pockets and send money. The importance of this skill in politics cannot be overstated. Many politicians find it the most challenging part of their job. Especially those that are new to elected office. Especially those with extreme viewpoints.

Yet she does it well and makes it looks easy. This is what I mean by talented. It’s different from skilled, which she isn’t (yet). Shes not bad but has a long way to go. Skills can be learned, though. Talent is more elusive.

She’s raised a whole lot of money for her re-election campaign and, I assume her party. And now she has a PAC.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...ongress-098018

I found a couple of articles claiming she had raised more money than any other House Democrat, including Pelosi and Schiff. All the articles were from mainstream conservative sources ( like Fox News and NY Post ), so take it with a grain.

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  #58  
Old 02-23-2020, 04:30 PM
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If Trump gets another term, how much will it matter what her future is? We'll all be in for a pretty bad future, same as if Biden or Buttigieg is the nominee and gets destroyed.

Actually it does. Biden rides off into the sunset if he loses either the primary or general.

Pete has definitely not hitched his wagon to the Bernie train, he will be a force going forward.

AOC is full blown Bernie sis and is trying to get Dems who don’t meet her purity standards primaried. A Sanders thrashing sends her to obscurity overnight.
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  #59  
Old 02-23-2020, 04:56 PM
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Actually it does. Biden rides off into the sunset if he loses either the primary or general.

Pete has definitely not hitched his wagon to the Bernie train, he will be a force going forward.

AOC is full blown Bernie sis and is trying to get Dems who don’t meet her purity standards primaried. A Sanders thrashing sends her to obscurity overnight.
I think the point is that the country will have far, far bigger fish to fry than the political careers of a few individuals if Trump wins. If Trump wins, we're screwed. Doesn't matter how and whom he beats.
  #60  
Old 02-23-2020, 08:09 PM
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I can't see the Palin comparison other than being female and being popular.

"Governor" Palin had a 10 or 20 year political career. AOC didn't.

They are at opposing ends of the political spectrum.

Palin was about 50 years old and an "establishment" political figure. AOC was 27, 28, 29 when she ran and is considered "anti-establishment".

I don't think Plain had/has a college degree. AOC does.

And AOC is smart. Palin in just not.

"Quitter" Palin did have some media savvy- enough to keep all those clothes the RNC bought her- but also was filmed in front of turkeys being buthered. Ew.

Palin was a pretty typical GOP-style grifter. AOC isn't.
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  #61  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:01 PM
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AOC showed what an idiot she is. She has a degree in economics and managed to mess up Milton Friedman and John Maynard Keynes, coming up with Milton Keynes. Perhaps she’s been riding trains in England in addition to spending time campaigning for Bernie, Milton Keynes is a town outside of London where it seems every train makes a stop.

In all seriousness, that’s a horrible mistake to make. It would be like someone with a degree in history mixing up Thomas Jefferson and Jefferson Davis.
I guess we have a different definition of "horrible mistake". This is about as stupid as the hullabaloo over Klobuchar forgetting the name of the President of Mexico.

People who make such trivialities into the main decision on who they vote for deserve the representation that they get.
  #62  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:16 PM
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OK let's arrange a debate between AOC and Sarah...

OK lets just imagine it...

Oh that is good. Are you seeing this? You do and it's a bipartisan position.
  #63  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:38 PM
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AOC is the Sarah Palin of the left: highly skilled at rousing the faithful but with little governing ability or broader appeal. Like Palin she drives the other side crazy which is wrongly cited as evidence of her political potency.
Chicks, amirite?
  #64  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:56 PM
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A Sanders thrashing sends her to obscurity overnight.
OMG that's so wrong. Her support has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders. A Sanders thrashing would in fact elevate her profile significantly, although I think shed rather it not happen that way nor at this time.
  #65  
Old 02-23-2020, 10:44 PM
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I guess we have a different definition of "horrible mistake". This is about as stupid as the hullabaloo over Klobuchar forgetting the name of the President of Mexico.

People who make such trivialities into the main decision on who they vote for deserve the representation that they get.
This is at least AOC’s second major economics flub. Remember her stupidity in not knowing how the unemployment rate was calculated?

I can’t imagine any economics undergrad not being required to read Milton Friedman or John Maynard Keynes.
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  #66  
Old 02-23-2020, 10:48 PM
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OMG that's so wrong. Her support has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders. A Sanders thrashing would in fact elevate her profile significantly, although I think shed rather it not happen that way nor at this time.
I doubt that. A Sanders thrashing means the loss of the House and they’ll be some young Paul Ryan wunderkind who will have the spotlight.
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  #67  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:17 AM
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This is at least AOC’s second major economics flub. Remember her stupidity in not knowing how the unemployment rate was calculated?

I can’t imagine any economics undergrad not being required to read Milton Friedman or John Maynard Keynes.
No, I don't remember those things. Do you have any cites?

I kinda suspect, for example, that "not knowing how the unemployment rate (was) calculated" is likely more of either an Obama-style "57 states" misstatement or some off-handed hyperbole than it is any actual lack of knowledge on AOC's part- which is why I ask.

Her bio says she has a BA in Economics and International Relations, and that she graduated cum laude and 4th in her class, so I would be very surprised to find the things you claim are true.




Fourth in her class: http://www.nhimagazine.com/2017/12/3...i-person-year/

Graduation with BA and cum laude status: https://web.archive.org/web/20151123...011Redbook.pdf

Degrees in Economics and International Relations: https://ocasio-cortez.house.gov/about/biography
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  #68  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:13 AM
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This is at least AOC’s second major economics flub. Remember her stupidity in not knowing how the unemployment rate was calculated?



I can’t imagine any economics undergrad not being required to read Milton Friedman or John Maynard Keynes.
These are the kind of "flubs" that smart, educated people who speak all the time about complicated topics make.
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  #69  
Old 02-24-2020, 11:46 AM
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I've seen no evidence that she's "ignorant" or "frequently sounds like an idiot". I've seen a few mistakes, but every Democrat has made a few rhetorical mistakes. I've seen no evidence that she's said more dumb or ignorant things over the last year or two than most other prominent Democrats. Occasional mistakes aren't Palinesque. AOC obviously reads and has intellectual curiosity.
How much intellectual curiosity does it take to be a bartender in the Bronx?
  #70  
Old 02-24-2020, 11:49 AM
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...Ocasio-Cortez graduated cum laude from Boston University College of Arts and Sciences with a BA in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics....
Wiki, natch. Sorry to interrupt, you were sneering....?

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  #71  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:04 PM
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Here’s AOC showing her stupidity about how the unemployment rate is calculated.
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...l-counts-abou/
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  #72  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:06 PM
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She is only going after one democrat so far with her PAC. I guess that’s an improvement.
  #73  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:07 PM
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Here’s AOC showing her stupidity about how the unemployment rate is calculated.
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...l-counts-abou/
That one has already been trotted out a dozen times. That AOC-haters are having to pull the same few mundane mistakes over and over again to support their AOC-hatred just shows how little an actual basis there is. AOC is not the enemy. She's a young, energetic progressive with a lot of talent who occasionally makes rhetorical mistakes. Give her some time to learn before you jump all over her. She's just a first-term House Rep.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-24-2020 at 12:07 PM.
  #74  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:09 PM
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What’s her future if Bernie is the nominee and gets destroyed?
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If Trump gets another term, how much will it matter what her future is? We'll all be in for a pretty bad future, same as if Biden or Buttigieg is the nominee and gets destroyed.

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Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Actually it does. Biden rides off into the sunset if he loses either the primary or general.

Pete has definitely not hitched his wagon to the Bernie train, he will be a force going forward.

AOC is full blown Bernie sis and is trying to get Dems who don’t meet her purity standards primaried. A Sanders thrashing sends her to obscurity overnight.
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I think the point is that the country will have far, far bigger fish to fry than the political careers of a few individuals if Trump wins. If Trump wins, we're screwed. Doesn't matter how and whom he beats.
My point exactly. Thanks.
  #75  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:26 PM
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That one has already been trotted out a dozen times. That AOC-haters are having to pull the same few mundane mistakes over and over again to support their AOC-hatred just shows how little an actual basis there is.
Right, right - just a few, minor nitpicking details where she's wrong. Why, over a third of the time she is actually telling the truth, more or less! (As opposed to the 62% of the time where she isn't.)

But as you say, she's just a first-termer. No doubt by the time the world has ended in ten years or so, she will be right more than half the time.

Regards,
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  #76  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:41 PM
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Right, right - just a few, minor nitpicking details where she's wrong. Why, over a third of the time she is actually telling the truth, more or less! (As opposed to the 62% of the time where she isn't.)

But as you say, she's just a first-termer. No doubt by the time the world has ended in ten years or so, she will be right more than half the time.

Regards,
Shodan
Wow, a sample size in the single digits! IMO, that qualifies as "just a few", but YMMV.
  #77  
Old 02-24-2020, 12:51 PM
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That one has already been trotted out a dozen times. That AOC-haters are having to pull the same few mundane mistakes over and over again to support their AOC-hatred just shows how little an actual basis there is. AOC is not the enemy. She's a young, energetic progressive with a lot of talent who occasionally makes rhetorical mistakes. Give her some time to learn before you jump all over her. She's just a first-term House Rep.
She’s got a degree in Economics! The basics of calculating the unemployment rate in the USA is covered in any Intro to Macroeconomics class and I bet she had to take at least one core Labor Economics class. And, if you’re going to run your mouth about it. I’d at least double check my facts. I expect more from here than some blowhard on CNBC.
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:02 PM
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She’s got a degree in Economics! The basics of calculating the unemployment rate in the USA is covered in any Intro to Macroeconomics class and I bet she had to take at least one core Labor Economics class. And, if you’re going to run your mouth about it. I’d at least double check my facts. I expect more from here than some blowhard on CNBC.
Hopefully she's learned from this mistake. AFAICT, most of her (relatively few) mistakes were made very early in her tenure, and she's made fewer, if any, since then.
  #79  
Old 02-24-2020, 01:08 PM
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While this thread has descended into the dalej42 show because of his weak-sauce ad hominem attacks on AOC, which are being joined by some of the conservative "usual suspects", I would like to hear what dopers think of the Courage to Change PAC, more specifically using AOC's fundraising abilities to primary other Democrats instead of holding our powder for the real enemy in the general election. My opinion is that this is part and parcel of the whole Sanders-ist belief that the enthusiasm of the progressive base is the alpha-and-omega of this election and somehow purple districts and states that only just squeaked into the blue column in the last election, or that are real toss-ups this election, will go DEEEEP blue (progresssive) in the general election.
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:15 PM
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At least she knows who are the Republicans, and who are the Democrats. Except when she doesn't.

And of course we need to get rid of the mistaken idea that taxes pay for 100% of government expenditures, because they don't. There's also deficit spending, which is a good idea when done to support her Green New Deal but a bad idea when Republicans do it. Because we apparently don't have record low unemployment, and need more jobs for everybody to have two of, which causes unemployment.

Of course she has mentioned that she finds questions about how to pay for her proposals puzzling.

She is pretty and passionate as well as innumerate, so she seems well-equipped to be the face of the progressives, no matter what, if anything, is behind that face.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:18 PM
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While this thread has descended into the dalej42 show because of his weak-sauce ad hominem attacks on AOC, which are being joined by some of the conservative "usual suspects", I would like to hear what dopers think of the Courage to Change PAC, more specifically using AOC's fundraising abilities to primary other Democrats instead of holding our powder for the real enemy in the general election. My opinion is that this is part and parcel of the whole Sanders-ist belief that the enthusiasm of the progressive base is the alpha-and-omega of this election and somehow purple districts and states that only just squeaked into the blue column in the last election, or that are real toss-ups this election, will go DEEEEP blue (progresssive) in the general election.
Ok, getting back to this, I think it’s a horrible idea. I am so sick and tired of progressives thinking that because they won in deep blue districts, that the rest of the country is just waiting for a ‘true progressive’ to vote for. I’ve even heard crazy shit about a Bernie candidate being able to win in West Virginia.
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:21 PM
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While this thread has descended into the dalej42 show because of his weak-sauce ad hominem attacks on AOC, which are being joined by some of the conservative "usual suspects", I would like to hear what dopers think of the Courage to Change PAC, more specifically using AOC's fundraising abilities to primary other Democrats instead of holding our powder for the real enemy in the general election. My opinion is that this is part and parcel of the whole Sanders-ist belief that the enthusiasm of the progressive base is the alpha-and-omega of this election and somehow purple districts and states that only just squeaked into the blue column in the last election, or that are real toss-ups this election, will go DEEEEP blue (progresssive) in the general election.
I think it's probably good in some cases (i.e. getting rid of Dan Lipinski, a crappy Democrat in a solid blue district) and not so good in others (various red-to-blue flippers from '18 who ran as moderates in moderate-to-conservative districts). I'd have to see specifically which districts she's targeting -- hopefully she'll go after the ones like Lipinski's.
  #83  
Old 02-24-2020, 02:24 PM
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My hate for her grew when she grilled Mark Zuckerberg when he was testifying. She was rude - cutting him off and not letting him answer then mischaracterizing the little he was allowed to say. Yes I know every politician uses testimony time to grandstand and make speeches and be a jerk to someone you disagree with but my god she was over-the-top even for Congress.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:13 PM
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Moderates are terrified, and terror sometimes hides itself as contempt.
Speaking as what passes for a moderate these days, which apparently means not thinking that Sanders is the second coming. I don't have contempt for AOC, but I do have some fear. I am not afraid that she will succeed. If she gathered a giant grass roots movement that cast down the old ways and bring about a green woke revolution that changed society as we know it, I think that'd be pretty cool. No what I'm afraid of is that in trying to make a tea party of the left, complete with circular firing squads, litmus tests, DINO cucks and primarying otherwise safe candidates for not being sufficiently progressive, she will over reach and we will lose all the progress that was made in the 2018 election.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:18 PM
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My hate for her grew when she grilled Mark Zuckerberg when he was testifying. She was rude - cutting him off and not letting him answer then mischaracterizing the little he was allowed to say. Yes I know every politician uses testimony time to grandstand and make speeches and be a jerk to someone you disagree with but my god she was over-the-top even for Congress.
This little thing draws you to hate her?
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:31 PM
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This little thing draws you to hate her?
It’s certainly a good reason. An idiot such as AOC and her fellow ‘progressives’ have already made up their minds that Facebook is EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!

But, she’s in Congress, not at a cool kids coffeehouse. So, yes, should should have dialed her self righteous anger back a lot and at least let Zuckerberg answer the questions rather than play the gotcha game. Let’s leave that shit to Jim Jordan.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:35 PM
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Hate comes easy to some, apparently. I always thought "hate" should be reserved for the truly awful, not for energetic young progressives who, at worst, have made a few tactical or rhetorical errors.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:55 PM
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It’s certainly a good reason. An idiot such as AOC and her fellow ‘progressives’ have already made up their minds that Facebook is EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!

But, she’s in Congress, not at a cool kids coffeehouse. So, yes, should should have dialed her self righteous anger back a lot and at least let Zuckerberg answer the questions rather than play the gotcha game. Let’s leave that shit to Jim Jordan.
Riiiiight.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:59 PM
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I think it's probably good in some cases (i.e. getting rid of Dan Lipinski, a crappy Democrat in a solid blue district) and not so good in others (various red-to-blue flippers from '18 who ran as moderates in moderate-to-conservative districts). I'd have to see specifically which districts she's targeting -- hopefully she'll go after the ones like Lipinski's.
Reading a few articles, I think you're right, at least so far. The two sitting Dem Congressmen the PAC is going after are Lipinski in IL and Cuellar in TX, both being conservative-leaning Dems in solidly-blue districts. I'm not concerned about some moderate-progressive infighting in safe districts -- little would change if nobody pushed leftward anywhere but always picked the most moderate possible Dem, and the proof of the pudding (how moderate or progressive is District X?) can only be by eating (Dem primary voting) -- so long as we're not striving mightily but counterproductively to throw away chances in winnable purple districts.

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Speaking as what passes for a moderate these days, which apparently means not thinking that Sanders is the second coming. I don't have contempt for AOC, but I do have some fear. I am not afraid that she will succeed. If she gathered a giant grass roots movement that cast down the old ways and bring about a green woke revolution that changed society as we know it, I think that'd be pretty cool. No what I'm afraid of is that in trying to make a tea party of the left, complete with circular firing squads, litmus tests, DINO cucks and primarying otherwise safe candidates for not being sufficiently progressive, she will over reach and we will lose all the progress that was made in the 2018 election.
This was my concern when I first heard of this PAC, and I'm still inclined to keep an eye on them to make sure they don't drift that way in future elections, but I feel a lot better for now.
  #90  
Old 02-24-2020, 06:02 PM
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What’s her future if Bernie is the nominee and gets destroyed?
She'll be fine. She didn't ride into office on Bernie's coattails, and she doesn't need him to stay in office.
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:46 PM
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Here’s AOC showing her stupidity about how the unemployment rate is calculated.
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...l-counts-abou/
I was the one who asked for the cites and I see you brought one of the two I requested so thanks for that.

Clearly AOC's statement that "unemployment is low because..." is not a display of "stupidity" about "how the unemployment rate is calculated" but is more of a "rhetorical excess", as your own citation says.

I find it really, really difficult to get all het up about that and it's odd to me that her statement is being presented as an example of "stupidity" at all since it's such very much not an example of "stupidity" and is also a ridiculously minor "crime".

Did you happen to locate the other cite I requested?
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
Speaking as what passes for a moderate these days, which apparently means not thinking that Sanders is the second coming. I don't have contempt for AOC, but I do have some fear. I am not afraid that she will succeed. If she gathered a giant grass roots movement that cast down the old ways and bring about a green woke revolution that changed society as we know it, I think that'd be pretty cool. No what I'm afraid of is that in trying to make a tea party of the left, complete with circular firing squads, litmus tests, DINO cucks and primarying otherwise safe candidates for not being sufficiently progressive, she will over reach and we will lose all the progress that was made in the 2018 election.
"I'm afraid that Democrats are just like Republicans and will do the same exact things they do."

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Old 02-24-2020, 10:31 PM
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I was the one who asked for the cites and I see you brought one of the two I requested so thanks for that.

Clearly AOC's statement that "unemployment is low because..." is not a display of "stupidity" about "how the unemployment rate is calculated" but is more of a "rhetorical excess", as your own citation says.

I find it really, really difficult to get all het up about that and it's odd to me that her statement is being presented as an example of "stupidity" at all since it's such very much not an example of "stupidity" and is also a ridiculously minor "crime".

Did you happen to locate the other cite I requested?
A cite for being required to read Keynes and Friedman? No, but they’re two of the most prominent economists in history. Even my high school economics class mentioned Adam Smith, John Maynard Keynes, and Milton Friedman.

I simply can’t imagine any economics curriculum that doesn’t cover Keynesian economics or Monetarism, they’re contrasting theories about government intervention and the money supply.
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Old 02-24-2020, 11:37 PM
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A cite for being required to read Keynes and Friedman? No, but they’re two of the most prominent economists in history. Even my high school economics class mentioned Adam Smith, John Maynard Keynes, and Milton Friedman.

I simply can’t imagine any economics curriculum that doesn’t cover Keynesian economics or Monetarism, they’re contrasting theories about government intervention and the money supply.
I was referring to the post where you said AOC mixed up or misunderstood Keynes and Friedman and something about an English town.

Looking back, I see this happened in your post (post #42), and you had included the link to the Business Insider article titled Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez confused 2 of history's most famous economists and ended up name checking the most ridiculed town in the UK you cited in that post already.

I just missed the cite, I guess.

So in the news story you cited, AOC Tweeted about a prediction made by the British economist John Maynard Keynes but she Tweeted his name incorrectly as "Milton Keynes".

You own cite says that AOC corrected the error quickly and "said later (that) she had confused him with the US economist Milton Friedman."

As an amusing added bonus, there's apparently a town 50 miles from London called "Milton Keynes" that is named an "amalgamation of "Milton" and "Keynes", (that was built) from scratch in 1967 as an experiment in centralized town planning," and "is often ridiculed in the UK as an uninspired and banal settlement."

The article goes on to have some fun with "Keynes roundabouts" on the roadways there.

I still don't find this kind of simple error to be convincing evidence that AOC is "stupid".

Your own cite says that the only people what have latched on to this as evidence of "stupidity" are "several right-of-center media outlets, including Fox News and the Washington Examiner."

It appears to me that these very weak criticisms of inconsequential errors made by AOC boil down to simple partisanship far more than they are evidence of her being incompetent or stupid.
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  #95  
Old 02-25-2020, 12:03 AM
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An idiot such as AOC and her fellow ‘progressives’ have already made up their minds that Facebook is EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, they aren't wrong about that.
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  #96  
Old 02-25-2020, 12:57 AM
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AOC creating a PAC to support more elected officials who have similar views seems to been an entirely normal thing for someone in her position to do.
I'm in Texas and two people she has endorsed are running for seats here. Neither are on my particular ballot and aren't likely to get elected in November but it's nice to see progressives getting some love down here.

Buck Godot said "... what I'm afraid of is that in trying to make a tea party of the left, complete with circular firing squads, litmus tests, DINO cucks and primarying otherwise safe candidates for not being sufficiently progressive, she will over reach and we will lose all the progress that was made in the 2018 election."

I actually don't have an issue with a bit of "Tea Party of the left". Those/these kinds of fringy movements often seem to pull policies and idea proposals forward; to the middle. Reasonable fringy ideas can help both create and shape public conversation and eventually a fringy idea can find its way to the middle with real voters having real opinions about them sometime later.

IMHO, it seems to take 4-20 years for big ideas to filter down to voters.

For example

-Reagan talked about "Welfare queens" in the mid to late '70's or early '80's and Clinton "reformed Welfare" in the mid '90's, 15 - 20 years later. Notice how this sort of shocking at the time original idea pulled the idea to the middle (and it also switched parties)?

-The "Tea Party" movement began in earnest in about 2007 or 2009 but didn't gain a strong foothold until about 2012, 3 - 4 - 5 years later and now they've got the tax cuts they wanted (although they seem to have completely forgotten about their other concerns). And the Tea party movement has pulled 'the right' even further right which is what I think it was intended to do.

-Health care reform, which was a Clinton topic of the early '90's, took about 15 years to get to Obama.

Anyway, I could be wrong but I don't think AOC would allow the pitfalls you mention ("circular firing squads, litmus tests, DINO cucks and primarying otherwise safe candidates") with this PAC. It's her PAC and she appears to have some firm ideas about who it will support even if those she chooses to support aren't expected to win. I think she's really looking at the long game and at pulling the conversation to the left now so that it will find a spot in the middle later. I can support that wholeheartedly.
(That doesn't mean her intentions and movement can't be hijacked or astro-turfed though.)

Overall I find the PAC, and its potential, to be a good thing.
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Last edited by Ca3799; 02-25-2020 at 12:58 AM.
  #97  
Old 02-25-2020, 01:27 AM
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I don't think it's an entirely normal thing for a first term Congresswoman to organize a PAC to primary "bad" Democrats. Sorry.

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-25-2020 at 01:29 AM.
  #98  
Old 02-25-2020, 03:59 AM
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I don't think it's an entirely normal thing for a first term Congresswoman to organize a PAC to primary "bad" Democrats. Sorry.
Definitely not "entirely normal". Not at all. We'll see over the next few election cycles if it's effective and positive.
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Old 02-25-2020, 08:23 AM
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I don't think it's an entirely normal thing for a first term Congresswoman to organize a PAC to primary "bad" Democrats. Sorry.
Who cares how normal it is? I'm somewhat familiar with two of the incumbent Dems in question: Lipinski and Cuellar. One's in a pretty safe Dem seat (D+6) and the other's in a very safe seat (D+9), but they side with the GOP on numerous votes and on major issues.

If they were defending R+4 seats and they were being primaried from the left, I'd be up in arms about that. But we can't waste solidly Dem seats on people who aren't going to be on our side any more often than these guys are.

In any given Congressional seat that a Dem can win, I want the most liberal Democrat who can keep getting re-elected to that seat. In D+6 and D+9 seats, that Democrat is someone well to the left of Lipinski or Cuellar.
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Old 02-25-2020, 08:28 AM
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I was responding to someone saying it's perfectly normal. So that's who cares.
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