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Old 02-21-2020, 08:47 PM
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Washington Post Reports the Russians are Backing Bernie.


Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign

This certainly gives me no pleasure to report. The idea seems to be that Bernie is the weakest opponent to The Donald. The Donald is of course who they want in the White House.


How does this change your thinking?
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:53 PM
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I've liked Mayor Pete all along. Will vote for Bernie if he is the nominee. So, hasn't changed my mind at all. I will vote for whoever is up against Trump.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:54 PM
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The Russians are smarter than me, it seems. I was one of those Democratic voters who cheered on when some Democratic voters in a “cross-over” state voted for Trump in a primary, thinking he’d be the weakest Republican candidate. Oops. (Well, maybe he still was — we’ll never know).

Or the Russians are failing to heed “be careful what you wish for.”

Or, they’re playing multi-dimensional chess, and really want Bernie to be president.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:56 PM
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If they are trying to help Sanders IMO it is because they (and Trump (and we already know he thinks this)) think Trump could easily defeat Sanders.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:57 PM
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I'm sorry to say this is not news to anyone who read the Mueller report or paid attention to what he said at his press conference, that Russian interference has never abated. So in that respect, I have always viewed Bernie as the weakest candidate for the general election and close to my last choice -- even though I agree with many of his views.

Also, I've been getting the same "something is really wrong with this primary" vibe as I got in 2016 that turned out to be based on Russian subversion tactics meant to divide us. The hostility, even on this board, toward anyone daring to criticize Bernie is entirely outsized to the norms of lively debate -- even those of us who have said unequivocally we will vote for Bernie if he is the nominee.

So this is how it changes my thinking: Perhaps we can start with ourselves, recognize that we're largely on the same team and engage with one another in as non-snarky a way as possible. I get really sick of the world-weary, "god-you-are-so-dumb" default tone I see in so many responses. And I will admit I am guilty of using it at times of it, too. I am going to do my best to stop.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:01 PM
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The hostility, even on this board, toward anyone daring to criticize Bernie is entirely outsized to the norms of lively debate -- even those of us who have said unequivocally we will vote for Bernie if he is the nominee.
I've perceived it entirely differently: the hostility on this board toward anyone daring to support Sanders is entirely outsized--even toward those of us who have said unequivocally we will support whoever the nominee is.

Interesting that we've seen it so differently.
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So this is how it changes my thinking: Perhaps we can start with ourselves, recognize that we're largely on the same team and engage with one another in as non-snarky a way as possible. I get really sick of the world-weary, "god-you-are-so-dumb" default tone I see in so many responses. And I will admit I am guilty of using it at times of it, too. I am going to do my best to stop.
I agree with this, every word.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:08 PM
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Pretty much nothing new ... no shit they try and influence the elections, they always have it's just been since the internet/social media that is has become very noticeable. It doesn't make a candidate more or less qualified just avoid the hyperbole.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:27 PM
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Pretty much nothing new ... no shit they try and influence the elections, they always have it's just been since the internet/social media that is has become very noticeable. It doesn't make a candidate more or less qualified just avoid the hyperbole.
Americans, especially those in government, didn't used to help them.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:31 PM
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I've perceived it entirely differently: the hostility on this board toward anyone daring to support Sanders is entirely outsized--even toward those of us who have said unequivocally we will support whoever the nominee is.

Interesting that we've seen it so differently.

<snip>
I think we're on opposite sides of this issue and for that reason, have had exactly opposite experiences. It's on both sides, no question.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:34 PM
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So what exactly are the Russians doing or the Chinese or the Iranians or God forbid anybody else? What exactly are we supposed to be looking out for and where are we supposed to be looking out for it? How is it supposed to influence us once we find it? Maybe creating a nation of chicken littles every election is the real goal.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:38 PM
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So this is how it changes my thinking: Perhaps we can start with ourselves, recognize that we're largely on the same team and engage with one another in as non-snarky a way as possible. I get really sick of the world-weary, "god-you-are-so-dumb" default tone I see in so many responses. And I will admit I am guilty of using it at times of it, too. I am going to do my best to stop.

I agree.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:42 PM
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I'm sorry to say this is not news to anyone who read the Mueller report or paid attention to what he said at his press conference, that Russian interference has never abated. So in that respect, I have always viewed Bernie as the weakest candidate for the general election and close to my last choice -- even though I agree with many of his views.

Also, I've been getting the same "something is really wrong with this primary" vibe as I got in 2016 that turned out to be based on Russian subversion tactics meant to divide us. ...
I've spent some time, in recent days, reading Twitter threads dominated by self-professed Bernie fans. Of course there's no telling who's actually a fan of his (much less a registered US voter) and who's there to stir up mischief.

What's stood out:

***The high emotion, for everything. Every topic is LIVE OR DIE / ARE YOU STUPID / YOU MUST BE A CORPORATE WHORE / YOU'RE A MORON GO KILL YOURSELF / HOW CAN YOU THINK THAT WAY YOU IDIOT etc etc etc. If people paid by Putin are encouraging this, they are finding fertile ground. (I won't quote sample tweets here--it's just the usual dimwitted invective, as shown in the all-caps.)

***The parroting of the standard Don't Vote memes: Your vote stands for YOU and you must not cast it for anyone who doesn't hold your positions on every issue! Politicians have an OBLIGATION to court you and please you and if they don't, they don't deserve your vote. If they don't give us what we want they can just hold their breath because we will stay home! Staying home and not voting is the mark of a sophisticated person! (Or of a "spiritual" person.) Staying home and not voting will teach them a lesson! Next time they'll work harder to please us! Etc. etc. etc.

Sample tweet: "No one has a right to your vote. If someone wants your vote let them earn it. Let them appeal to you."


***The encouragement to see the DNC, and the Democratic Party in general, as the Worst Evil On Earth. They are AWFUL and they do not deserve to be rewarded with our votes (etc.)!

Sample tweet: "I gave them my vote begrudgingly in 2016 and they lost to an orange idiot. So excuse me if im not excited to repeat that mistake again."

Another: "The GOP is banking on the DNC cocking their own voters over. The DNC is fine with being GOP enablers. Welcome to the politics of Neoliberalism."


***Explicit mockery of any mention of Russian involvement in our elections that's been in the news (such as has come out today and the past few days). The idea is repeatedly advanced that it's utterly ridiculous to assume that the Kremlin has anything resembling a social-media strategy to meddle in US elections--or to put it another way, the findings of Mueller's report are soundly and thoroughly rejected and derided.

Sample tweet: "How are you people so [effing] lazy that you still cry “Russia” at every opportunity?"



Who knows what percentage of actual American-voter Bernie supporters are purveyors of this stuff; it could be 1% or 90%. No telling, at this point. (That awaits a full-fledged poly-sci or sociological study.)

But it's notable for how closely it adheres to what's coming out of Kremlin-directed troll farms. Same themes; same emotion-intended-to-divide.

Last edited by Sherrerd; 02-21-2020 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:43 PM
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So what exactly are the Russians doing or the Chinese or the Iranians or God forbid anybody else? What exactly are we supposed to be looking out for and where are we supposed to be looking out for it? How is it supposed to influence us once we find it? Maybe creating a nation of chicken littles every election is the real goal.
I think you are missing the point. It's not what Russia/China/Iranians/North Koreans/Turks are doing. It's how one party is welcoming the foreign assistance and doing nothing to protect our elections from the interference. This is a national security issue and every American should be insisting that our government officials protect us from such subversion. That's what's different, and that's where we need to pay attention and hold those officials to account.

Why have no election security bills been brought to the floor of the Senate for a vote?

Why are no Republican Senators speaking out against this foreign interference, or trying to do anything to stop it?

Why is Bill Barr requiring all investigations into foreign election interference coordination with American citizens to be personally approved by him?

These questions are just for openers.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:47 PM
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Pretty much nothing new ... no shit they try and influence the elections, they always have it's just been since the internet/social media that is has become very noticeable. It doesn't make a candidate more or less qualified just avoid the hyperbole.
You're talking about a better world -- but we're living in this one, where folks take every opportunity to politicize.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:49 PM
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Who knows what percentage of actual American-voter Bernie supporters are purveyors of this stuff; it could be 1% or 90%. No telling, at this point. (That awaits a full-fledged poly-sci or sociological study.)

But it's notable for how closely it adheres to what's coming out of Kremlin-directed troll farms. Same themes; same emotion-intended-to-divide.

It wasn't Russian trolls chanting "Wall Street Pete!", and booing him before Bernie's victory speech in NH. Those were U.S. trolls.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:49 PM
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Sherrerd, that's fascinating, disturbing and sadly, not surprising. Thanks for taking the bullet. I don't do Twitter or Facebook, so I never saw all the crap that was flowing through those sewers. But I could feel its influence in the anger levels of every side.

Again, thanks for sharing what you've observed. I hope you will continue to do so.
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:44 PM
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Sherrerd, that's fascinating, disturbing and sadly, not surprising. Thanks for taking the bullet. I don't do Twitter or Facebook, so I never saw all the crap that was flowing through those sewers. But I could feel its influence in the anger levels of every side.

Again, thanks for sharing what you've observed. I hope you will continue to do so.
I will (and I appreciate the kind words). But it definitely is treacherous territory; just today I got into a testy back-and-forth with a long time follower/person I follow, all over a misunderstood sentence. We cleared it up. But that sort of thing is happening all over the internet (sometimes without a resolution).

Putin has chosen the easiest possible way to affect the world: make it angrier and more divided. (If I believed in hell I'd certainly think he deserved its deepest level.)
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:47 PM
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It wasn't Russian trolls chanting "Wall Street Pete!", and booing him before Bernie's victory speech in NH. Those were U.S. trolls.
Yes. But being human, they do respond to the encouragement they find online, and a lot of that is propaganda (rather than authentic reactions to candidates).
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:52 PM
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FWIW, most people in most Western democracies would back Bernie, too. If for no better reason than most people in most Western democracies simply can’t imagine life without universal health care.
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:04 PM
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It doesn't change anything for me. He's not my first choice but it's looking like I'll end up voting for him barring some unexpected result in the next couple of states, and some people in Russia having opinions about "electability" that match what American pundits blare 24/7 on CNN is not very surprising or concerning to me. I also find it suspicious that this is coming out the day before a key nominating contest and the day after Trump installed a Twitter troll as Director of National Intelligence.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 02-21-2020 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:04 PM
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FWIW, most people in most Western democracies would back Bernie, too. If for no better reason than most people in most Western democracies simply can’t imagine life without universal health care.
It's quite possible to recognize that universal health care is the smartest and most efficient and prudent arrangement for any economy, and simultaneously to believe that Sanders as the Democratic nominee is, to put it mildly, unwise. (This is assuming that one sees getting rid of Trump as the first necessity).
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:14 PM
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I've spent some time, in recent days, reading Twitter threads dominated by self-professed Bernie fans. Of course there's no telling who's actually a fan of his (much less a registered US voter) and who's there to stir up mischief.

What's stood out:

***The high emotion, for everything. Every topic is LIVE OR DIE / ARE YOU STUPID / YOU MUST BE A CORPORATE WHORE / YOU'RE A MORON GO KILL YOURSELF / HOW CAN YOU THINK THAT WAY YOU IDIOT etc etc etc. If people paid by Putin are encouraging this, they are finding fertile ground. (I won't quote sample tweets here--it's just the usual dimwitted invective, as shown in the all-caps.)

***The parroting of the standard Don't Vote memes: Your vote stands for YOU and you must not cast it for anyone who doesn't hold your positions on every issue! Politicians have an OBLIGATION to court you and please you and if they don't, they don't deserve your vote. If they don't give us what we want they can just hold their breath because we will stay home! Staying home and not voting is the mark of a sophisticated person! (Or of a "spiritual" person.) Staying home and not voting will teach them a lesson! Next time they'll work harder to please us! Etc. etc. etc.

Sample tweet: "No one has a right to your vote. If someone wants your vote let them earn it. Let them appeal to you."


***The encouragement to see the DNC, and the Democratic Party in general, as the Worst Evil On Earth. They are AWFUL and they do not deserve to be rewarded with our votes (etc.)!

Sample tweet: "I gave them my vote begrudgingly in 2016 and they lost to an orange idiot. So excuse me if im not excited to repeat that mistake again."

Another: "The GOP is banking on the DNC cocking their own voters over. The DNC is fine with being GOP enablers. Welcome to the politics of Neoliberalism."


***Explicit mockery of any mention of Russian involvement in our elections that's been in the news (such as has come out today and the past few days). The idea is repeatedly advanced that it's utterly ridiculous to assume that the Kremlin has anything resembling a social-media strategy to meddle in US elections--or to put it another way, the findings of Mueller's report are soundly and thoroughly rejected and derided.

Sample tweet: "How are you people so [effing] lazy that you still cry “Russia” at every opportunity?"



Who knows what percentage of actual American-voter Bernie supporters are purveyors of this stuff; it could be 1% or 90%. No telling, at this point. (That awaits a full-fledged poly-sci or sociological study.)

But it's notable for how closely it adheres to what's coming out of Kremlin-directed troll farms. Same themes; same emotion-intended-to-divide.
I always suggest looking at their Twitter feed. I am a huge supporter of Pete, my Twitter is posted in my signature. While I definitely support Pete, my Twitter is more than 24/7 politics.
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:53 PM
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I think you are missing the point. It's not what Russia/China/Iranians/North Koreans/Turks are doing. It's how one party is welcoming the foreign assistance and doing nothing to protect our elections from the interference. This is a national security issue and every American should be insisting that our government officials protect us from such subversion. That's what's different, and that's where we need to pay attention and hold those officials to account.

Why have no election security bills been brought to the floor of the Senate for a vote?

Why are no Republican Senators speaking out against this foreign interference, or trying to do anything to stop it?

Why is Bill Barr requiring all investigations into foreign election interference coordination with American citizens to be personally approved by him?

These questions are just for openers.
This is what should really shock us. Elections being influenced by lies? Nothing new. Russia acting as a major enemy, using cyber warfare and exploiting weaknesses? Nothing new. A U.S. political party that actively encourages Russian interference? Not just Trump the Crook-in-Chief, but Moscow Mitch and the entire Senate Majority? This is an absolute scandal. Those who don't sense the failure of American Democracy now, need to wake up.

But No. Every.Single.Republican takes the point of view: "Putin may be a ruthless anti-American tyrant bent on destruction of the U.S., but if helps Trump get re-elected I'm all for it!!" The shame!
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Old 02-22-2020, 12:05 AM
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It wasn't Russian trolls chanting "Wall Street Pete!", and booing him before Bernie's victory speech in NH. Those were U.S. trolls.
Are you familiar with the information in the Mueller report about how Russians targeted particular "influencers" in 2016 who were Trump supporters to go hold rallies on Trump's behalf?

From the Mueller report, p. 35:

Quote:
Starting in June 2016, the IRA contacted different US persons affiliated with the Trump Campaign in an effort to coordinate pro-Trump IRA-organized rallies inside the United States. In all cases, the IRA contacted the Campaign while claiming to be US political activists working on behalf of a conservative grass roots organization. The IRA's contacts included requests for signs and other materials to use at rallies, as well as requests to promote the rallies and help coordinate logistics. While certain campaign volunteers agreed to provide the requested support (for example, agreeing to set aside a certain number of signs), the investigation has not identified evidence that any Trump Campaign official understood the requests were coming from foreign nationals.
Point being, would Bernie's people even realize they were being thus manipulated? Would any of us? I see little evidence on this forum that people in general are willing to consider that they themselves may have fallen prey to such influence. It's a hard thing to consider -- and that's one of the things that makes it so insidious.
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Old 02-22-2020, 12:10 AM
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The really depressing thing is how indifferent most voters--even many Democrats--have seemed to be to all this Manchurian Candidate monkey business. Not a good sign for the health of our society.

I'm desperately hoping (I almost wrote "praying" but I'm an atheist) that this news will be a wakeup call to enough Democrats that Bernie takes a significant hit and can be overtaken in the primary race.
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Old 02-22-2020, 01:02 AM
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Putin has chosen the easiest possible way to affect the world: make it angrier and more divided.
This, and bring as much chaos as possible to American government. Thus, I think Trump is Putin's first choice to be president, and Bernie possibly his second choice.

So, promote Bernie in the primaries with the strategy of getting him nominated.

Then, if that succeeds, Putin will be certain that one of Trump or Sanders will be president next.
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Old 02-22-2020, 01:25 AM
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Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign

This certainly gives me no pleasure to report. The idea seems to be that Bernie is the weakest opponent to The Donald. The Donald is of course who they want in the White House.


How does this change your thinking?
Not a whit. I wouldn't believe the Post if they told me water was fucking wet

I will continue to vote for whoever I feel best qualified for the job.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 02-22-2020 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 02-22-2020, 03:25 AM
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Not a whit. I wouldn't believe the Post if they told me water was fucking wet

"Angrier and more divided" as someone said upstream.
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Old 02-22-2020, 04:31 AM
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The really depressing thing is how indifferent most voters--even many Democrats--have seemed to be to all this Manchurian Candidate monkey business. Not a good sign for the health of our society.

I'm desperately hoping (I almost wrote "praying" but I'm an atheist) that this news will be a wakeup call to enough Democrats that Bernie takes a significant hit and can be overtaken in the primary race.
Or maybe that’s what Putin wants? Maybe it’s all just a big double bluff to scare Democrats away from Bernie so Trump can walk to victory against Senile Joe, Mini Mike or Pocahontas? Or maybe it’s a triple bluff? Or a quadruple bluff? Or...or...or...

Here’s an idea. How about Democrats just nominate who we want and then just work hard to make the best possible case for that person. Seriously, fuck Putin! Fuck his junior high school level social media machinations, and fuck what he wants. He only matters because we let him.
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Old 02-22-2020, 05:09 AM
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I'll briefly paraphrase the valid and important message which now dominates intelligent political discourse:
Americans are now so confounded by all the Fake News that they treat all news as Fake and just follow whatever prejudice tickles their reptilian brain.

On this topic, I'm bookmarking one of the posts in this thread and marking it as Exhibit #1.
  #31  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:40 AM
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Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign

This certainly gives me no pleasure to report. The idea seems to be that Bernie is the weakest opponent to The Donald. The Donald is of course who they want in the White House.


How does this change your thinking?

I'm curious how this plays with Trump. Does he concede that it's happening? Does denying that it's happening come off as a small defense of Sanders? Perhaps such a defense might be necessary to continue the charade that this interference is insignificant. But then again, that's only one dimension, three sentences of thinking. I'll see what mr. 4 dimensional chess comes up with.

Last edited by bobot; 02-22-2020 at 06:40 AM.
  #32  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:22 AM
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I'm curious how this plays with Trump. Does he concede that it's happening? Does denying that it's happening come off as a small defense of Sanders? Perhaps such a defense might be necessary to continue the charade that this interference is insignificant. But then again, that's only one dimension, three sentences of thinking. I'll see what mr. 4 dimensional chess comes up with.
My guess is that he'll decry it as a hoax, and cry crocodile tears in hopes of whipping up the small conspiracy-minded minority of Bernie's coalition into believing that They are trying to steal the nomination from Bernie "again." (In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if that's exactly why this came out.)

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 02-22-2020 at 07:24 AM.
  #33  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:30 AM
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***The high emotion, for everything. Every topic is LIVE OR DIE / ARE YOU STUPID / YOU MUST BE A CORPORATE WHORE / YOU'RE A MORON GO KILL YOURSELF / HOW CAN YOU THINK THAT WAY YOU IDIOT etc etc etc. If people paid by Putin are encouraging this, they are finding fertile ground. (I won't quote sample tweets here--it's just the usual dimwitted invective, as shown in the all-caps.)
Being overly emotional is the left's biggest weakness. Also the obsessive focus on identity politics. Pair that with "THEY'RE COMING FOR YOUR GUNS!" on the right (along with a desperate need for some right-wingers to control people's sex lives) and no wonder a lot of people just give up on politics.

It reminds me about a Nixon voter who basically lost touch with reality after the Watergate scandal broke, insisting that Nixon did nothing wrong as more and more evidence went public. (I think that's true of a lot of Trump voters too.)

Also nonsense like this: #StillVotingYang

He dropped out. Please don't vote for Jill Stein or some other third party (and please don't stay home) because Yang didn't win. Presidents don't pass legislation in the first place.
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Old 02-22-2020, 07:31 AM
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Ahh, I see Trump (or whoever runs his account) has already tweeted about this, along the lines I expected:

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MSDNC (Comcast Slime), @CNN and others of the Fake Media, have now added Crazy Bernie to the list of Russian Sympathizers, along with @TulsiGabbard & Jill Stein (of the Green Party), both agents of Russia, they say. But now they report President Putin wants Bernie (or me) to win.

The reason for this is that the Do Nothing Democrats, using disinformation Hoax number 7, don’t want Bernie Sanders to get the Democrat Nomination, and they figure this would be very bad for his chances. It’s all rigged, again, against Crazy Bernie Sanders!
This follows six other tweets just this month pretending to sympathize with Bernie over the supposed suppression of his campaign.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 02-22-2020 at 07:32 AM.
  #35  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:51 AM
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Vlad : "Let's help Bernie a little bit too. And leak it. God knows we will have to leak it like a faucet turned on. The US won't even listen to their own intelligence agencies, and now a moron is in charge of those as well. But this will piss off Trump supporters and Trump will get more votes".

I very much doubt Trump could play Tic-Tac-Toe.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:01 AM
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And people say Trump hasn't learned his lesson. Nonsense! He's learned it very well: There are no real negative consequences to inviting interference by foreign actors in helping him win the election. A+.
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  #37  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:03 AM
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StillVotingYang? Good grief.
  #38  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:14 AM
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StillVotingYang? Good grief.
Given the results from Iowa and New Hampshire that showed just how few people were ActuallyVotingYang, I don't think we need to be worried about the hangers-on representing anything substantial.
  #39  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:25 AM
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Putin has chosen the easiest possible way to affect the world: make it angrier and more divided. (If I believed in hell I'd certainly think he deserved its deepest level.)

Americans have destroyed entire nations in the last two decades in the name of "democracy".
Plenty of your countrymen deserve to keep him company in that level.
  #40  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:35 AM
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"Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!"
  #41  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:03 AM
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Why is meddling in an election by a foreign nation not an act of war? I don't really want to glow in the dark for whatever the half life of a nuclear weapon may be, but it seems like we ought to make a major sword rattling stink over this at the very least. The way things are going, Putin will be sending his boys around to get Trump's lunch money every day...

Last edited by Oakminster; 02-22-2020 at 10:03 AM.
  #42  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:12 AM
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Called it.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=856350

Last edited by JohnT; 02-22-2020 at 10:15 AM.
  #43  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:28 AM
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Why is meddling in an election by a foreign nation not an act of war? I don't really want to glow in the dark for whatever the half life of a nuclear weapon may be, but it seems like we ought to make a major sword rattling stink over this at the very least. The way things are going, Putin will be sending his boys around to get Trump's lunch money every day...
Help me understand this. Yes, for things like hacking into the DNC servers we take diplomatic action by tossing out a few diplomats. But if we get all self-righteous then our own spying could be exposed and make us look bad.

But this social media stuff, how is that worse than, for example, Obama coming out and stating that he was opposed to Brexit? Should the UK have imposed sanctions on us as if we had declared war on them in response to Obama making that statement?

What if I start a Facebook Group stating my support for Boris Johnson, knowing that UK readers can see it? Is that an act of war? Or am I immune because I am not directed to start the group by the government?

I think we are closer politically than many of other posters on this board, so convince me why I should be outraged over this. I get being slightly upset by it, but to hear the rhetoric, you would think that Russian spies are being planted in every American family and that they have a plan to interbreed so that we become One People.
  #44  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:35 AM
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"Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!"
You go down there general.
  #45  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:49 AM
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I'll briefly paraphrase the valid and important message which now dominates intelligent political discourse:
Americans are now so confounded by all the Fake News that they treat all news as Fake and just follow whatever prejudice tickles their reptilian brain.

On this topic, I'm bookmarking one of the posts in this thread and marking it as Exhibit #1.
Well i know its not mine given that I *linked to a news source*
  #46  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:59 AM
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Point being, would Bernie's people even realize they were being thus manipulated? Would any of us? I see little evidence on this forum that people in general are willing to consider that they themselves may have fallen prey to such influence. It's a hard thing to consider -- and that's one of the things that makes it so insidious.
I'm not entirely sure what I should consider, because, like always, I stay away from the political ads and shit. I don't go into the vitriolic communities. I'll come out strong against Trump, but not the other candidates. The reason is the same as other ads--I don't like being manipulated by appeals to emotion.

The only thing I have to consider is to go check and see if the rape accusations against Bloomberg have a legitimate source, as I know that is one thing that influenced me against him. Before that, he was just "guy I didn't prefer" but now he's "guy who I'd only vote for because Trump is worse."

I guess I may also point out that the Russians are pushing out the anger that Bernie's fans are spewing, and that we shouldn't respond back in kind, but try to work together.

But I'd have to be careful, because I don't want to push the message that Bernie is only viable because of Russia, and encourage even diehard Democrats to not vote for him if he becomes the nominee, or invite even more vitriol towards those who "fell" for it.

So I might just not mention it at all, and stick with my message of "we are not enemies. We just disagree on some things. We should still all be working together to fight Trump, not each other." And, of course, debunk shit when the Russians push fake news again.

Hell, I'm not even sure if they'd be doing this becaue they want Bernie to win the presidency or even the nomination. They could be doing it to get Trump on board. Or releasing it to get the anti-Bernie people to gang up on Bernie, playing an extra dimensions. Or it could be a strategy after seeing that Sanders is ahead in a way to give Trump supporters ammunition to say "well, Russia supports Bernie, too."

Trying to figure out exactly what they are trying to do is itself letting them influence the election. Sure, you want to point it out when you see it, but you don't want to let the mere fact of who they are helping matter. And that's a hard balance.
  #47  
Old 02-22-2020, 11:16 AM
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The really depressing thing is how indifferent most voters--even many Democrats--have seemed to be to all this Manchurian Candidate monkey business. Not a good sign for the health of our society.

I'm desperately hoping (I almost wrote "praying" but I'm an atheist) that this news will be a wakeup call to enough Democrats that Bernie takes a significant hit and can be overtaken in the primary race.
This is just so unreasonable.

You're so afraid of Putin and you've attributed so much of Trump to Putin that at the slightest hint that Putin is doing anything, you jump to the most divisive, most obviously disruptive line of thinking possible, all in the hopes that you'll then be on the against-Putin side, which also coincidentally is indistinguishable from you just being more emotionally entrenched in the same position you were already in. This news has done nothing but make you angrier about what you already believed.

Gee, weird! What an unpredictable and unlike anything in recent history outcome!

I mean, I'm sure Putin's a smart guy, I'm sure it's a fine operation he's running. But yikes. You're not exactly making it hard for him to be disruptive with this kind of reactivity.
  #48  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:21 PM
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I'm just waiting for the inevitable GOP Senators calling for multiple investigations into how the Russians helped President Sanders and not realize any irony in it at all.

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  #49  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:42 PM
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With the complete blocking of any action (bills, laws, etc) regarding election security and the continued refusal to govern for 50%+- of the population due to ideological differences, it's hard to imagine the man and party who invented 3 million voters... in victory... back in 2016 allowing President Sanders to even be a thing.

Russia backs Bernie, is blatant about it, Trump screams rigged, the Senate backs him up and all those judges... hopefully... provide a quick path to the Supreme Court to rule for Trump. Evidence is manufactured, people are arrested, and that will be that.

I have not seen any evidence... other than my own worries about whether I'm beginning to Old Man Conspiratorize... that says the above is impossible. I couldn't even get Joaquin Castro to deny this was implausible.
  #50  
Old 02-22-2020, 04:11 PM
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My conclusions are much the same, JohnT. Based on all the information we have that is readily available to those who will actually study it, there is no other reasonable conclusion. When members of your own government (Trump Republicans) ignore lawful subpoenas and witness summons and most of the country barely blinks, I think we can be certain those same people will have no compunction in ignoring the outcome of an election -- unless it unequivocally goes the way they want, of course. They're already acting like autocrats.

They've been very busy over the past 3 1/2 years building uncertainty into the outcome. Did many notice? It's why Warren and others are pleading for a large Democratic turn-out election. There's no other way to assure Republicans will be forced to relinquish power -- if they will at all.

In the run-up to the election, Trump will use the powers of his office to pull us out of Afghanistan with or without a plan to ensure that the sacrifices of all those who went before were not in vain; he will make sure the (non-existent) middle class gets a nice sop of a tax cut; he'll keep filching from the military budget to "build that wall." Then he'll parade around the country on a ceaseless rooster crow about how he "kept his promises" made in 2016. There will be investigations into his political enemies, probably including the arrest of at least one opponent (especially if it's Biden). A significant number of citizens will fall for all of it.

This is how Putin rolls. And like I've said at least a half a dozen times on this forum over the past few years, Trump doesn't just admire Putin. He wants to be Putin.

We must pull together to stop it. I have little faith at this point that we will.
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