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  #51  
Old 02-22-2020, 04:16 PM
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Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States of America:
(Actually swiped from Lord Feldon's post above, though I did click on the link to Twitter just to verify.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by the President of the United States of America
MSDNC (Comcast Slime), @CNN and others of the Fake Media, have now added Crazy Bernie to the list of Russian Sympathizers, along with @TulsiGabbard & Jill Stein (of the Green Party), both agents of Russia, they say. But now they report President Putin wants Bernie (or me) to win.

....The reason for this is that the Do Nothing Democrats, using disinformation Hoax number 7, donít want Bernie Sanders to get the Democrat Nomination, and they figure this would be very bad for his chances. Itís all rigged, again, against Crazy Bernie Sanders!
It continues to astound, shock, disgust, and dismay me that this sort of garbage is a DIRECT QUOTE from the President of the United States of America. This is "that one uncle no one wants to invite to Thanksgiving dinner any more" bad. (And I actually have some "Good Old Boy" uncles, with very right-wing political views, but I've never heard any of them say anything that's this mean and this fundamentally unhinged.)

I'm not even saying this is the worst thing the man has ever said, either; this is just normal now. We've gone from the "Founding Fathers", to "With malice toward none, with charity for all", to "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself", to "the audacity of hope", to...this.

And that's the kind of leadership Vladimir Putin wants this country to have. We have GOT to come together and put a stop to this. This is, to use Franklin Roosevelt's words, a threat equal to "the emergency of a war", or if "we were in fact invaded by a foreign foe".
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  #52  
Old 02-22-2020, 04:18 PM
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See? (Reuters)

Quote:
U.S. President Donald Trumpís national security adviser denied that U.S. intelligence officials have warned that Russia has been interfering in the U.S. presidential campaign to boost Trumpís re-election chances.

ďI havenít seen any intelligence that Russia is doing anything to attempt to get President Trump reelected,Ē Robert OíBrien, who was appointed by Trump to the post in September, said in an ABC News interview to be broadcast on Sunday.
Everything's just fine.
  #53  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
I very much doubt Trump could play Tic-Tac-Toe.
Yet he's sleeping with a supermodel in the Whitehouse while you're ineffectually raging at your keyboard on an anonymous message board.
  #54  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Projammer View Post
Yet he's sleeping with a supermodel in the Whitehouse while you're ineffectually raging at your keyboard on an anonymous message board.
By his own words (and dozens of credible accusations), Trump doesn't seem big on consent; that society has elevated an admitted abuser of women and violator of consent is a poor reflection on our society as a whole, not an indictment of his critics. Better to be an angry person on the internet than an abuser of women and violator of consent like Trump. At least, if fighting abuse of women is important.
  #55  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
...In the run-up to the election, Trump will use the powers of his office to pull us out of Afghanistan with or without a plan to ensure that the sacrifices of all those who went before were not in vain; he will make sure the (non-existent) middle class gets a nice sop of a tax cut; he'll keep filching from the military budget to "build that wall." Then he'll parade around the country on a ceaseless rooster crow about how he "kept his promises" made in 2016. There will be investigations into his political enemies, probably including the arrest of at least one opponent (especially if it's Biden). A significant number of citizens will fall for all of it. ...
Yes. And Trump will liquidate the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to put gas at 25 cents per gallon. And, very possibly, will be filmed saving a baby from a burning building (or something equivalent).

All the squabbling among the Democrats will be exposed as the proverbial rearranging of deck chairs on the decks of the Titanic.

If Bernie gets the nomination the Making Trump Pres-for-Life process will go extremely smoothly. If some other ticket less subject to conspiracy-mongering prevails, it may go a tad less smoothly. But it will go forward.

There are only two ways that we won't be dealing with Trump-for-life, next November:
  • He dies or is massively incapacitated (such that the kids can't pull off a virtual Presidency through old videotape and such), or
  • Americans take to the streets in Hong Kong-level numbers (proportionately).





((Dalej42, I'll look you up---I get on Twitter only once a day, and not every day, as a sanity-preserving policy.)
  #56  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:32 PM
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So when Bernie wins in November will Trump use this to (try to) annul the election results?
  #57  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:54 PM
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So when Bernie wins in November will Trump use this to (try to) annul the election results?
Sure (as has already been described by Aspenglow and JohnT in recent posts in this thread). It's been pre-established in American minds that Bernie's results are "due to" help from the Russians, so that can be used---with an astonishing lack of irony---by the Trumpites, as a reason to invalidate the November 3 numbers.
  #58  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:15 PM
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I'm a teensie bit more optimistic than Sherrerd and hope my little shim of optimism is justified. Here are the 2 reasons why.
  • Let's not forget how many Republican House members have stampeded for the door ahead of the election. They don't do that if they think they're going to win.

  • If ever there was an election that Putin wanted to rig in his favor, it was in Ukraine in 2019. Presumably, it is easier to rig elections in Ukraine than in the USA. Zelenskyy won with a 70% majority against his Putin-backed opponent.
If Bernie (or whichever nominee) wins in November by a healthy margin, say 7%+, it will be a lot harder for Trump/Putin to attempt to annul the election results. Election-rigging is hard work and not guaranteed.

Paper ballots, paper ballots, paper ballots. No voter tally machines connected to the internet. Eyes on at-risk precincts in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Georgia and North Carolina. A commitment to vote Blue No Matter Who, no matter what crap you hear about them.

Simple fixes can go a long way. And we have to hope like hell the line workers in our intelligence agencies can manage to maintain their commitments to their oaths for a few months more.
  #59  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MEBuckner View Post
We have GOT to come together and put a stop to this. This is, to use Franklin Roosevelt's words, a threat equal to "the emergency of a war", or if "we were in fact invaded by a foreign foe".
I've posed this question before, but I'll pose it again; please feel free to NOT share your answer (frankly, it's a question for you to answer to yourself, not to anyone else): what will you do if Trump does not concede the election and the Senate supports him? What will you do if our democracy is usurped from within, even with the veneer of legality?

Better to know that answer before it happens, IMO.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-22-2020 at 07:31 PM.
  #60  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
The Donald is of course who they want in the White House.
Why would the Russians want Trump in the White House?
- He's the polar opposite of socialist leaning Sanders and is putting the US first including a restructure trade deal with communist China.
- He approved sanctions against the Russian pipeline into Germany.
- That led to chancellor Merkel agreeing to ocean port infrastructure for US natural gas as a counter to any Russian political influence like they've done in the past with natural gas in Poland.
- He promotes a strengthening of the US military.
- Under Trump US forces attacked and killed 300 pro-Syrian Russian mercenaries in Syria. A Russian puppet government.

There is nothing pro-Russian about Trump.
  #61  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:55 PM
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Donald Trump of course was forced into sanctions against the Russians by Congress. He is the one who shares intelligence sources & methods with them. He is the one who cut off aid to the Ukrainians fighting the Russians. He is the fellow who does not seem to support NATO.
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  #62  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:00 PM
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But you have to understand that all that was done at the direction of the Kremlin to make it look like he's not working with them.

You just have to play 5D chess at the level of Comrade Putin.
  #63  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:05 PM
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Again, it's not what Putin is or is not doing. It's about what our own government, tasked with safeguarding our elections, is failing to do.
  #64  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:09 PM
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Why would the Russians want Trump in the White House?
Among other things, because he's destroying confidence and goodwill to America around the world, and he's sabotaging the American constitutional system. Putin wants a weaker America, and so far, with Trump, he's getting it in spades.
  #65  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:18 PM
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Why would the Russians want Trump in the White House?

<snip>

There is nothing pro-Russian about Trump.
Your ignorance on this subject is staggering. I hope you choose to enhance your knowledge.

Here is a good place to start. (Moscow Project)

The recap is a year old, but it will give you an idea of how many ways Putin has benefited from Trump's occupation of the White House.
  #66  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:35 PM
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Yet he's sleeping with a supermodel in the Whitehouse while you're ineffectually raging at your keyboard on an anonymous message board.
Cite? (For the "sleeping with" part.)
  #67  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:49 PM
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I think we are closer politically than many of other posters on this board, so convince me why I should be outraged over this. I get being slightly upset by it, but to hear the rhetoric, you would think that Russian spies are being planted in every American family and that they have a plan to interbreed so that we become One People.
I see it as an assault on national sovereignty, an escalation in tensions, and as a test. What can they get away with? How far can they go? I'd like to see a strong, yet non-violent, response as a warning,
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Last edited by Oakminster; 02-22-2020 at 09:50 PM.
  #68  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:15 PM
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Your ignorance on this subject is staggering. I hope you choose to enhance your knowledge.

Here is a good place to start. (Moscow Project)
That is literally a nonsense hit piece funded by the liberal Center for American Progress Action Fund.Your cite is a joke. This is why the Democratic party is losing voters.

Despite the politically motivated opinion piece of your cite I've posted the physical actions of Trump showing the opposite. He directly opposed a Russian pipeline until Germany agreed to build the necessary infrastructure to neutralize Russia's ability to use it as a political weapon.

This was no small political challenge to Russia's attempt at making Germany subservient to Russian energy supplies like they did with Poland. It was a pre-emptive Berlin Airlift that Trump got Germany to pay for. It needed to be done and Trump delivered. This is the kind of leadership that NATO needs and it was a huge blow to Russia.
  #69  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:21 PM
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Among other things, because he's destroying confidence and goodwill to America around the world, and he's sabotaging the American constitutional system. Putin wants a weaker America, and so far, with Trump, he's getting it in spades.
We are financially and militarily stronger since Trump came to office. It is literally the opposite of what you just said and in no way represents the wishes of Putin or Russia.
  #70  
Old 02-22-2020, 10:27 PM
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I see it as an assault on national sovereignty, an escalation in tensions, and as a test. What can they get away with? How far can they go? I'd like to see a strong, yet non-violent, response as a warning,
Trump administration targets Russian oil company for helping Venezuela skirt sanctions.

If he tweeted "fuck Putin in the ass" would it make you happy? At what point will it sink in that it's a Democratic Party meme that Russia supports Trump.
  #71  
Old 02-22-2020, 11:04 PM
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Don't forget that the Washington Post is owned by Jeff Bezos, who will lose a tiny percentage of his money if Bernie's economic policy passes.
  #72  
Old 02-23-2020, 06:04 AM
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We are financially and militarily stronger since Trump came to office. It is literally the opposite of what you just said and in no way represents the wishes of Putin or Russia.
That is a joke, but go on believing White House propaganda if you want.
  #73  
Old 02-23-2020, 07:03 AM
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He directly opposed a Russian pipeline until Germany agreed to build the necessary infrastructure to neutralize Russia's ability to use it as a political weapon.
US corporate interests > Russia > NATO allows. Donít even pretend that isnít true.

Quote:
This is the kind of leadership that NATO needs and it was a huge blow to Russia.
Putin doesnít seem to care. Thatís when Trump does something anti-Russia. And that killing 300 Russian mercenaries? I see no evidence that Trump was ever involved in that. Mattis gave the order to ďannihilateĒ the attackers, and at the time, the Administration went to great lengths to assure everyone that no actual Russian troops were killed.... which is questionable at best.

Anyways, seem like a real anti-Russia politician would have said something about it. Can you find a tweet or something in which Trump claims credit for killing 300 Russians? I mean, he claims credit for everything else, so surely heís talked endlessly about how tough he is on Russian mercenaries trying to kill Americans.

(And of course, later that year, Trump orders US troops out of Syria and Mattis quits. Iím sure youíll say that was anti-Russia too, right?)
  #74  
Old 02-23-2020, 11:41 AM
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That is literally a nonsense hit piece funded by the liberal Center for American Progress Action Fund.Your cite is a joke. This is why the Democratic party is losing voters.

Despite the politically motivated opinion piece of your cite I've posted the physical actions of Trump showing the opposite. He directly opposed a Russian pipeline until Germany agreed to build the necessary infrastructure to neutralize Russia's ability to use it as a political weapon.

This was no small political challenge to Russia's attempt at making Germany subservient to Russian energy supplies like they did with Poland. It was a pre-emptive Berlin Airlift that Trump got Germany to pay for. It needed to be done and Trump delivered. This is the kind of leadership that NATO needs and it was a huge blow to Russia.
People who really dislike Trump are not going to admit that his actual policies have not been in any discernible way, compared to previous admin or what various Democratic challengers are saying, pro-Russian. But they pretty obviously are not.

OTOH a ban on fracking in the US would be a significant positive for Russia/Putin. I think on that issue alone under the theory that Putin is clever not stupid, he could well want Sanders to win over Trump. I'm not saying Sanders or Trump takes their position on that issues in view of how it would affect Putin or that they should factor that in much, but there's a pretty basic lack of logic IMO in claiming how obvious it is that Russia favors Trump. Given that it's a petro-state basically and US oil/gas production is the marginal factor holding oil/gas prices at relatively unfavorable levels for a petro-state, where one wing of one US party positively wants to cut US fossil fuel production potentially drastically, though again not *because* of its effect on Russia.

Then defense spending similarly. Against which there's pretty much just innuendo that Trump favors Russia policy wise in any other way, becoming more and more strained a hypothesis as Trump admin has unfolded. Trump claim he's 'tough on Russia' isn't obvious, and compared to what? But same going the other way, in what real way is it obvious Obama or HRC or GW Bush or any other recent/hypothetical specific comparison would act a whole lot differently, or that it would actually be good for the US if so, which is the basic idea of being US president, not acting against other countries/regimes as end in itself (eg. Trump cuts back US involvement in Syria, but previous admin was very reluctant to get involved at all...and wasn't necessarily wrong).

Besides foreign policy per se, one could argue 'but the Trump admin welcomes Russian interference in US elections'. But again the fatal weak point in that argument IMO is showing why Putin would actually prefer Trump over an anti-fossil fuel candidate who would also need to cut defense spending (among other measures including tax increases of less direct concern to Putin) to fund a big increase in social welfare spending. If it's not obvious why Putin should prefer Trump, and it's not IMO, it's all the more credible that Russian efforts this time would be pro-Sanders, and not necessarily limited to the primaries.

OTOH though Russian interference is a serious matter, the effects have often been hysterically overblown IMO, and the realization that Russia might actually prefer Sanders to Trump might at least get some people on the left to view the issue more realistically (though maybe now make some people on the right engage in bat shit exaggerations about it).

Last edited by Corry El; 02-23-2020 at 11:45 AM.
  #75  
Old 02-23-2020, 11:46 AM
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Donald Trump of course was forced into sanctions against the Russians by Congress. He is the one who shares intelligence sources & methods with them. He is the one who cut off aid to the Ukrainians fighting the Russians. He is the fellow who does not seem to support NATO.
At least he gave them aid, it wasnít cut off.
  #76  
Old 02-23-2020, 03:17 PM
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Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but Jake Tapper says on twitter that the claim that Russia is helping Sanders because they want him in the White House is not accurate - looks like there's no dispute Russia is helping Sanders, just a dispute over whether it extends beyond the Dem primary. Just to clarify, this is not an independently verified/vetted report, it's just Tapper reporting on one source he "trusts".

Quote:
The national security official I trust had some tough words for NSA Robert O’Brien’s comments about @BernieSanders
on abc news, which contradict US intel —

Thread/

2/ “There are these reports that they want Bernie Sanders to get elected president," O'Brien said. "That's no surprise. He honeymooned in Moscow."

That’s not what the intel says, the official told me, also taking issue with the political nature of the comments.

3/ The report in the Washington Post, which broke the story, stated not that the Russians want Sanders to get election president, but rather that "Russia is attempting to help his presidential campaign as part of an effort to interfere with the Democratic contest."

4/ In other words, this is part of a campaign of sowing discord and as of now is focused entirely on the primaries.

That senior national security contradicts O'Brien: “The intelligence is that there is no preference right now," the official said. "Not Bernie, not Trump."

5/ So why did O'Brien say what he said?

"Perhaps his first instincts are more political than that of a national security professional," said the official, noting that in Las Vegas on Friday, President Trump said ”Wouldn’t (Putin) rather have Bernie, who honeymooned in Moscow?"

6/ O'Brien's comment about Sanders has nothing to do with intelligence data, or collection, and everything to do with pleasing the president, the official said.

7/ "By saying that, O'Brien injected himself into the campaign by commenting on a potential rival. If he's willing to say that as national security adviser, what does that mean for the next nine months? And what is he doing when the camera's not on him?"
So on the one hand there is the release of this report, which already smelled fishy, but this is further reason to believe the decision to release this information and the timing of the release had political motivations.

On the other hand there is a dispute as far as what the intel community actually knows. This doesn't dispute that they know of a Russian attempt to boost Sanders in the primary, but it is disputing that they know that Russia has any motive beyond messing with the Dem primary.

Also, just looking at the "no preference right now" line, this might just be a case of normally the intel community is very careful about public release of info because even though it's fairly obvious Russia prefers Trump as President, they don't want to say anything beyond what they can prove based on credible evidence. It's possible that there is also some reason for them to believe Russia does have a preference for Sanders as President but insufficient hard evidence, but O'Brien decided to make the speculation public, which the anonymous official objects to.

Also possible that everything Tapper heard is bad info.

I hope we get a clearer picture of this, but it's tough to draw any conclusions right now, other than we know Russia is boosting Sanders to throw a wrench in the Democratic primary.

Last edited by str8cashhomie; 02-23-2020 at 03:18 PM.
  #77  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:32 PM
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So I have my copy of Good Omens here, opened at the bit where Crowley tells fellow demons Hastur and Ligur of his evil deed of tying up all cellphones for 45 minutes during lunchtime.

"What could he tell them? That twenty thousand people got bloody furious? that you could hear the arteries clanging shut all across the city? And that then they went back and took it out on their secretaries or traffic wardens or whatever, and they took it out on other people? In all kinds of vindictive little ways which, and here is the good bit, they thought up themselves. For the rest of the day. The pass-along effects were incalculable. Thousands and thousands of souls all got a fain patina of tarnish, and you hardly had to lift a finger."

Crowley would have it easier now, this days all it takes is for the idea that a finger may had been lifted to set off people.
  #78  
Old 02-23-2020, 10:16 PM
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With the complete blocking of any action (bills, laws, etc) regarding election security and the continued refusal to govern for 50%+- of the population due to ideological differences, it's hard to imagine the man and party who invented 3 million voters... in victory... back in 2016 allowing President Sanders to even be a thing.

Russia backs Bernie, is blatant about it, Trump screams rigged, the Senate backs him up and all those judges... hopefully... provide a quick path to the Supreme Court to rule for Trump. Evidence is manufactured, people are arrested, and that will be that.

I have not seen any evidence... other than my own worries about whether I'm beginning to Old Man Conspiratorize... that says the above is impossible. I couldn't even get Joaquin Castro to deny this was implausible.
Asahi endorses your posts.

You're not wrong to have these concerns, JT.

You're not wrong.
  #79  
Old 02-23-2020, 10:40 PM
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That is literally a nonsense hit piece funded by the liberal Center for American Progress Action Fund.Your cite is a joke. This is why the Democratic party is losing voters.

Despite the politically motivated opinion piece of your cite I've posted the physical actions of Trump showing the opposite. He directly opposed a Russian pipeline until Germany agreed to build the necessary infrastructure to neutralize Russia's ability to use it as a political weapon.

This was no small political challenge to Russia's attempt at making Germany subservient to Russian energy supplies like they did with Poland. It was a pre-emptive Berlin Airlift that Trump got Germany to pay for. It needed to be done and Trump delivered. This is the kind of leadership that NATO needs and it was a huge blow to Russia.
Ah: handwaving; is there nothing it can't attempt to diminish?

People without facts wave their hands.
  #80  
Old 02-23-2020, 10:41 PM
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At least he gave them aid, it wasnít cut off.
Trump does not have the power to withhold the funds in the first place, so no credit to him.
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