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Old 02-22-2020, 07:30 PM
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Bernie DESTROYS the opposition in Nevada


It wasn't even close and this spells trouble for Biden, if he loses South Carolina he has to go. My bet is that if Biden goes the Hillary influenced part of the party will coalesce around Buttigieg.
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Old 02-22-2020, 07:33 PM
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Yep, Biden better campaign like crazy in S.C. all week long.
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Old 02-22-2020, 07:33 PM
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Existing thread a mere two entries below this one: Nevada Caucuses Discussion.
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Old 02-22-2020, 07:41 PM
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It wasn't even close and this spells trouble for Biden, if he loses South Carolina he has to go. My bet is that if Biden goes the Hillary influenced part of the party will coalesce around Buttigieg.
Try and remember that Bill Clinton didn't win a primary until the sixth one, in Georgia. We're far from an outcome at this stage.
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Old 02-22-2020, 07:46 PM
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Try and remember that Bill Clinton didn't win a primary until the sixth one, in Georgia. We're far from an outcome at this stage.
To quote Chris Matthews, 'It's over'
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Old 02-22-2020, 07:51 PM
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To quote Chris Matthews, 'It's over'
LOL, if only I cared about what Chris Matthews thinks.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:00 PM
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Ah, more sore winning from Bernie Bros.

Now, were these caucuses rigged? Not sure, IIRC they’re not rigged because they show Bernie winning.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:07 PM
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Ah, more sore winning from Bernie Bros.

Now, were these caucuses rigged? Not sure, IIRC they’re not rigged because they show Bernie winning.
Wow...trying to spin a win into a loss.

I don't get it...I really don't. If you are liberally minded (or at least a democrat) why the negativity?
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:09 PM
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Ah, more sore winning from Bernie Bros.

Now, were these caucuses rigged? Not sure, IIRC they’re not rigged because they show Bernie winning.
The better question would have been, would they have staggered the result if the margin of victory was similar to what it was in Iowa?

Looks like Pete 'petit bourgeois' Buttigieg has his work cut out for him.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:11 PM
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Christ, in the most important election in the history of the world, we could nominate about the only fucking person who not only could lose to the Orange Fascist, but give him a compliant House and Senate. Goodbye democracy.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:11 PM
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Wow...trying to spin a win into a loss.

I don't get it...I really don't. If you are liberally minded (or at least a democrat) why the negativity?
There is no doubt Bernie kicked ass today. It is so very Bernie Bro to be a sore winner when he wins and cry rigged when he loses.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:12 PM
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Existing thread a mere two entries below this one: Nevada Caucuses Discussion.
From that thread:

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I think Biden will not get as much support as hoped or projected. I think Buttigieg will get more support than is expected or projected.
I am currently seeing:

- Sanders 54%
- Biden 18%
- Warren 10%
- Buttigieg 8.7%

(Those numbers are as of 8p CST...they are obviously in flux for now)
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:12 PM
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Christ, in the most important election in the history of the world, we could nominate about the only fucking person who not only could lose to the Orange Fascist, but give him a compliant House and Senate. Goodbye democracy.
Oh, don’t forget the loss of state legislatures to make the party complete. Gotta have ten more years of gerrymandering.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:13 PM
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There is no doubt Bernie kicked ass today. It is so very Bernie Bro to be a sore winner when he wins and cry rigged when he loses.
Pot meet kettle.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:15 PM
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Christ, in the most important election in the history of the world, we could nominate about the only fucking person who not only could lose to the Orange Fascist, but give him a compliant House and Senate. Goodbye democracy.
Or... maybe he'll win. You don't know, I don't know, Trump doesn't know, even Putin doesn't know. We just don't know, and we can't know right now. Any prediction is a wild guess. We'll see. Maybe Bernie is right -- maybe enthusiasm and excitement will carry the day, and maybe there really are millions of normally non-voters who will turn out for Bernie. No reason for doom and gloom, and such sentiment certainly doesn't increase the chances of beating Trump.

As a data point, at least based on an analysis I saw (which I can't link to right now), if Bernie gets the exact same demographic percentages as George McGovern did in '72, he'd win today. That's how much the country has changed since then.

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Old 02-22-2020, 08:20 PM
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Christ, in the most important election in the history of the world, we could nominate about the only fucking person who not only could lose to the Orange Fascist, but give him a compliant House and Senate. Goodbye democracy.
Well...

Sanders currently polls as more likely to beat Trump than any other candidate except Biden (who is barely ahead of Sanders and after tonight is likely to fall behind).

In 2016 Trump's own pollster opined that Sanders would have beaten Trump.

It is weird that people here keep proclaiming a doomsday election when literally everything points to the opposite. Sanders is energizing the party, getting out the vote. Why do you keep looking at these numbers and think the opposite of what they are telling you?
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:21 PM
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Christ, in the most important election in the history of the world, we could nominate about the only fucking person who not only could lose to the Orange Fascist, but give him a compliant House and Senate. Goodbye democracy.
You really think Bernie would lose to Trump? You already tried the centrist route with Hillary and lost.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:24 PM
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Well...

Sanders currently polls as more likely to beat Trump than any other candidate except Biden (who is barely ahead of Sanders and after tonight is likely to fall behind).

In 2016 Trump's own pollster opined that Sanders would have beaten Trump.

It is weird that people here keep proclaiming a doomsday election when literally everything points to the opposite. Sanders is energizing the party, getting out the vote. Why do you keep looking at these numbers and think the opposite of what they are telling you?
Bernie is winning those polls because of name recognition (because he's been in the spotlight for years now, and all of the other candidates are fresh faces). Once he gets vetted, there is zero chance that he can win a national election. Trump believes it, Putin believes it, the Democratic party believes it. The only ones who do not get it are Bernie supporters.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:25 PM
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Bernie is winning those polls because of name recognition (because he's been in the spotlight for years now, and all of the other candidates are fresh faces). Once he gets vetted, there is zero chance that he can win a national election. Trump believes it, Putin believes it, the Democratic party believes it. The only ones who do not get it are Bernie supporters.
LOL. You sound just like I did in '16 when I was sure Trump could never possibly win. Certainty or even confidence in who is going to win is absolutely and hilariously crazy this early. You don't know... nobody knows. We'll find out.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:28 PM
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Bernie is winning those polls because of name recognition (because he's been in the spotlight for years now, and all of the other candidates are fresh faces). Once he gets vetted, there is zero chance that he can win a national election. Trump believes it, Putin believes it, the Democratic party believes it. The only ones who do not get it are Bernie supporters.
Biden and Warren have huge name recognition. Bloomberg is no slouch there either.

And there is no "vetted" for Sanders. He has been in politics for 40 years (give or take). There is no secret stash of Sanders dirt that will appear. In 40 years of politics the dirt has all been dug up and thrown at him. Unless you think his opponents till now were just too nice to make it public.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:30 PM
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So is Biden. So is Warren.

And there is no "vetted" for Sanders. He has been in politics for 40 years (give or take). There is no secret stash of Sanders dirt that will appear. In 40 years of politics the dirt has all been dug up and thrown at him. Unless you this his opponents till now were just too nice to make it public.
I hadn't seen that YouTube video of him defending Ortega until today. The Russians didn't move to his corner until this week.

He's going to take an absolute beating.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:31 PM
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Bernie is winning those polls because of name recognition (because he's been in the spotlight for years now, and all of the other candidates are fresh faces). Once he gets vetted, there is zero chance that he can win a national election. Trump believes it, Putin believes it, the Democratic party believes it. The only ones who do not get it are Bernie supporters.
You live in a bubble.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:32 PM
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You really think Bernie would lose to Trump? You already tried the centrist route with Hillary and lost.
Yes I really do. Why else would the Russians help Bernie? All the Pubbies have to do is hammer him until we're sick of it with the hammer and sickle. Republican voters will visit their doctor with their socialist Medicare, cash their socialist Social Security check, drive on their socialists roads and cast their votes to save the country from the evils of socialism.

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Old 02-22-2020, 08:32 PM
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I hadn't seen that YouTube video of him defending Ortega until today. The Russians didn't move to his corner until this week.

He's going to take an absolute beating.
There are a dozen videos or more of Trump defending and praising Putin, Kim Jong Un, and more -- and just in the last couple of years, rather than 30 years ago for Bernie. This stuff doesn't matter nearly as much as we used to think it does.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:34 PM
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Yes I really do. Why else would the Russians help Bernie? All the Pubbies have to do is hammer him with the hammer and sickle. Republican voters will visit their doctor with their socialist Medicare, cash their socialist Social Security check, drive on their socialists roads and cast their votes to save the country from the evils of socialism.
Because the Russians sometimes make mistakes? Because they want Democrats fighting Democrats? Because they want us to think they're helping Bernie even as they're not? Who knows? We shouldn't be taking into account Russian propaganda efforts and possible misdirection and psy ops when trying to choose our candidate. We don't know what Putin really wants, except for a weaker America.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:35 PM
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I hadn't seen that YouTube video of him defending Ortega until today. The Russians didn't move to his corner until this week.

He's going to take an absolute beating.
You realize the Russian playbook is to sow dissent. They are stirring the pot.

I guarantee you the Russians prefer Trump to anyone else and I would argue Sanders/Warren winning would be their least favorite outcome.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:37 PM
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There is no doubt Bernie kicked ass today. It is so very Bernie Bro to be a sore winner when he wins and cry rigged when he loses.
You could go that route. Here's another route you could go.
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Originally Posted by a gracious loser
Hey, congratulations, Sanders supporters! He's definitely not my candidate, but y'all kicked ass today. Y'all were organized, enthusiastic, and energized. The race isn't over, and I'm hoping the moderates come back, but there's no denying that today was a victory for the progressive wing of the Democratic Party.

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Old 02-22-2020, 08:39 PM
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You realize the Russian playbook is to sow dissent. They are stirring the pot.
They do not realize this. They're too busy dissenting.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:39 PM
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Yes I really do. Why else would the Russians help Bernie? All the Pubbies have to do is hammer him until we're sick of it with the hammer and sickle. Republican voters will visit their doctor with their socialist Medicare, cash their socialist Social Security check, drive on their socialists roads and cast their votes to save the country from the evils of socialism.
You are going to let Putin vote for you?
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:40 PM
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You realize the Russian playbook is to sow dissent. They are stirring the pot.

I guarantee you the Russians prefer Trump to anyone else and I would argue Sanders/Warren winning would be their least favorite outcome.
You could argue that, but you're going to have to somehow convince me that you know more about this than the U.S. Intelligence Agency, who says that they're attempting to help Bernie Sanders.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:41 PM
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The 50s are calling. They want their anticommunism back.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:41 PM
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You could argue that, but you're going to have to somehow convince me that you know more about this than the U.S. Intelligence Agency, who says that they're attempting to help Bernie Sanders.
There is no conflict here. The Russians could be attempting to help Bernie Sanders because they know this will be discovered and could aid in their goals of sowing dissent and distrust. We just don't know, and can't know. Vote for the candidate you want to.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:42 PM
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So is Biden. So is Warren.

And there is no "vetted" for Sanders. He has been in politics for 40 years (give or take). There is no secret stash of Sanders dirt that will appear. In 40 years of politics the dirt has all been dug up and thrown at him. Unless you think his opponents till now were just too nice to make it public.
On this point, I believe you are woefully wrong. You need to replace 'Sanders' with 'Biden' in your words above. Trump and the Russians aren't scouring for dirt. They're making it up. Sanders is not going to be exempt.

How many hit pieces have you seen against Sanders by Trump? How many "investigations" have been ginned up against him? Mark my words: If Bernie is the nominee, just watch how Trump and the Russians push false narratives, same as they have done to Biden throughout the Democratic primary process.

Joe Biden is one of the most trusted politicians in the country, and the reason many of us believe the manufactured dirt that has been and will continue to be thrown at him by TrumpCo/Putin will not stick as hard. It's why he's still in second place despite Trump's best efforts to smear him throughout the primary process.

A chart worth perusing. (Foreign Policy Research Institute) Note that the piece was written before US intelligence agencies told Sanders that the Russians were actively working to help him in the primary.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:43 PM
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Yes I really do. Why else would the Russians help Bernie? All the Pubbies have to do is hammer him until we're sick of it with the hammer and sickle. Republican voters will visit their doctor with their socialist Medicare, cash their socialist Social Security check, drive on their socialists roads and cast their votes to save the country from the evils of socialism.
So they're going to do what they would have done to any other candidate if it wasn't Bernie.

I'm sorry, but I think you and a few others don't understand the shift that's happened. The 'Centre' You think exists doesn't anymore, in fact, it had a stroke during the financial crisis in 2008, it was on life support with Obama and then died when Trump came to power.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:45 PM
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You could argue that, but you're going to have to somehow convince me that you know more about this than the U.S. Intelligence Agency, who says that they're attempting to help Bernie Sanders.
Bernie is the anti trump. They want a vicious campaign of polarity, and then have dt win and go on to oligarchy. From over there all they know is that bernie is their man for this project.

But if bernie wins that won't happen. So it is undisputed truth that putin is helping bernie in order to sow discord, and that he would hate a sanders administration above all other dem candidates.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:49 PM
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You could argue that, but you're going to have to somehow convince me that you know more about this than the U.S. Intelligence Agency, who says that they're attempting to help Bernie Sanders.
And those same agencies show them helping other candidates too.

The Russians want to stir dissent and divide people. It is literally in their playbook and they are good at it.

Do you think Sanders has asked for Russian help? Do you think Russians want Sanders to win?
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:50 PM
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You really think Bernie would lose to Trump? You already tried the centrist route with Hillary and lost.
Yeah..... thanks to 25% of Bernie supporters sabotaging the Democratic party, and helping Donald Trump.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:52 PM
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On this point, I believe you are woefully wrong. You need to replace 'Sanders' with 'Biden' in your words above. Trump and the Russians aren't scouring for dirt. They're making it up. Sanders is not going to be exempt.

How many hit pieces have you seen against Sanders by Trump? How many "investigations" have been ginned up against him? Mark my words: If Bernie is the nominee, just watch how Trump and the Russians push false narratives, same as they have done to Biden throughout the Democratic primary process.

Joe Biden is one of the most trusted politicians in the country, and the reason many of us believe the manufactured dirt that has been and will continue to be thrown at him by TrumpCo/Putin will not stick as hard. It's why he's still in second place despite Trump's best efforts to smear him throughout the primary process.

A chart worth perusing. (Foreign Policy Research Institute) Note that the piece was written before US intelligence agencies told Sanders that the Russians were actively working to help him in the primary.
That's some mind-bending rationalization you have going on there.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:52 PM
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And those same agencies show them helping other candidates too.

The Russians want to stir dissent and divide people. It is literally in their playbook and they are good at it.

Do you think Sanders has asked for Russian help? Do you think Russians want Sanders to win?
I 100% believe that the Russians want Bernie Sanders to win the Democratic nomination, yes.
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:54 PM
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There are a few theories as to why Russians would help Sanders.

1) They think he's the weakest candidate and want Trump to win, so they're helping Sanders now to prep the field for Trump.
2) They think Sanders is a strong candidate and know that helping him will be discovered, weakening him.
3) They want to fuck shit up in our country, and know that helping him will decrease trust in politicians and the media, because some segment of Sanders supporters will refuse to believe that Russia's helping him.
4) They want to fuck shit up in our country, and think that helping to move people who want major change to US institutions into the halls of power will do that, since that worked so well with Trump; Sanders wants to change US institutions, so supporting him will further their aims.
5) They want to fuck shit up in our country, and so they're supporting candidates that a lot of people dislike, so that everyone keeps yelling at each other.

If you're gonna support one of these theories above another, or if you have a different theory, can you back it up with evidence?
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:57 PM
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I 100% believe that the Russians want Bernie Sanders to win the Democratic nomination, yes.
You're getting it all wrong, they want the discord to win, the division, the chaos. They'll support one against the other, then switch then support again.

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In contemporary Russia, unlike the old USSR or present-day North Korea, the stage is constantly changing: the country is a dictatorship in the morning, a democracy at lunch, an oligarchy by suppertime, while, backstage, oil companies are expropriated, journalists killed, billions siphoned away. Surkov is at the centre of the show, sponsoring nationalist skinheads one moment, backing human rights groups the next. It's a strategy of power based on keeping any opposition there may be constantly confused, a ceaseless shape-shifting that is unstoppable because it's indefinable.
— Peter Pomerantsev, in "Putin's Rasputin", London Review of Books issue of 20 October 2011[8]
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Old 02-22-2020, 08:58 PM
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Yeah..... thanks to 25% of Bernie supporters sabotaging the Democratic party, and helping Donald Trump.
That is literally not true.

10% of Sanders' supporters voted for Trump and there is good reason to believe many of them were "never Clinton" people anyway. Sanders was able to draw off some fringe voters from Trump that Clinton could not.

For comparison 25% of Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008 (see link above).

In 2016, after Sanders lost, Sanders worked diligently for Clinton to get her elected. Recently, Clinton said she was unsure if she could support Sanders if he was the nominee.

Of the two which one would you say is supporting the party?
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 02-22-2020 at 08:59 PM.
  #43  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:59 PM
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There are a few theories as to why Russians would help Sanders.

1) They think he's the weakest candidate and want Trump to win, so they're helping Sanders now to prep the field for Trump.
2) They think Sanders is a strong candidate and know that helping him will be discovered, weakening him.
3) They want to fuck shit up in our country, and know that helping him will decrease trust in politicians and the media, because some segment of Sanders supporters will refuse to believe that Russia's helping him.
4) They want to fuck shit up in our country, and think that helping to move people who want major change to US institutions into the halls of power will do that, since that worked so well with Trump; Sanders wants to change US institutions, so supporting him will further their aims.
5) They want to fuck shit up in our country, and so they're supporting candidates that a lot of people dislike, so that everyone keeps yelling at each other.

If you're gonna support one of these theories above another, or if you have a different theory, can you back it up with evidence?
This is a fair challenge.

I assume we can all agree that the Russians want Trump to win, right? They do that by......... helping him win. Don't you think the same theory would hold true for Bernie? If they're helping him win, it's likely because they want him to win...... just like they've done for Trump.
  #44  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:00 PM
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Yes I really do. Why else would the Russians help Bernie? All the Pubbies have to do is hammer him until we're sick of it with the hammer and sickle. Republican voters will visit their doctor with their socialist Medicare, cash their socialist Social Security check, drive on their socialists roads and cast their votes to save the country from the evils of socialism.
The Russians are helping Bernie to dupe you into nominating someone like Sleepy Joe out of fear, thereby guaranteeing Trump’s victory.

Or maybe not. Who gives a fuck what the Russians want? Why don’t we just focus on what we want instead?
  #45  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:00 PM
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I 100% believe that the Russians want Bernie Sanders to win the Democratic nomination, yes.
Why do you think that?
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  #46  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:00 PM
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Yeah..... thanks to 25% of Bernie supporters sabotaging the Democratic party, and helping Donald Trump.
Here's a clue to winning an election;

You have to appeal to more than your base. Hillary didn't, why? Because if the Republican candidate is saying out loud 'I'll stop factories being shut down and being sent to Mexico' That resonates more than anything Hillary could have countenance with. Nobody owes you a vote.
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  #47  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:02 PM
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Yeah..... thanks to 25% of Bernie supporters sabotaging the Democratic party, and helping Donald Trump.
I think you're a little off here.

First, the 25% figure is the number of Clinton primary voters in 2008 who voted for McCain. The number of Sanders primary voters who voted for Trump in 2016 was 12%, less than half the figure you cited.

Second, the research on these folks is pretty interesting. They were overwhelmingly people who didn't like Obama, they weren't Democrats, and they were far likelier than most Democrats to deny white privilege.

IOW, the Sanders voters weren't Democrats who sulked. They were people who weren't ever planning on voting for a Democrat until Sanders came along. He could've pulled them into the Democratic tent in a way that Clinton couldn't.

The denial of white privilege is pretty troubling, if you see it as "ooh look it must be that Sanders is racist." But if you see it as "Sanders is able to build bridges to some voters who've got some fucked up ideas and maybe pull them into the tent, and more importantly capture some votes that are otherwise going to Trump," it's a lot less troubling.

We know those folks are out there. If we can get their votes without pandering to their racism, all the better.
  #48  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:03 PM
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That is literally not true.

10% of Sanders' supporters voted for Trump and there is good reason to believe many of them were "never Clinton" people anyway. Sanders was able to draw off some fringe voters from Trump that Clinton could not.

For comparison 25% of Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008 (see link above).

In 2016, after Sanders lost, Sanders worked diligently for Clinton to get her elected. Recently, Clinton said she was unsure if she could support Sanders if he was the nominee.

Of the two which one would you say is supporting the party?

I didn't say that 25% of Bernie supporters voted for Trump. I said that 25% of them helped Trump win. People not voting for Hillary helped Trump win, as well.

I'm not a Hillary apologist, by any means.
  #49  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:03 PM
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This is a fair challenge.

I assume we can all agree that the Russians want Trump to win, right? They do that by......... helping him win. Don't you think the same theory would hold true for Bernie? If they're helping him win, it's likely because they want him to win...... just like they've done for Trump.
Yup...the Russians help Trump win by making you think the Russians are supporting Bernie so you vote for Trump.

I guaran-fucking-tee you the Russians do not want Sanders to become president.
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  #50  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:05 PM
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I didn't say that 25% of Bernie supporters voted for Trump. I said that 25% of them helped Trump win. People not voting for Hillary helped Trump win, as well.

I'm not a Hillary apologist, by any means.
What?

Where did you get that number?
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