View Poll Results: Will Bernie beat Trump in the 2020 presidential election?
Yes 71 33.18%
No 143 66.82%
Voters: 214. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 02-24-2020, 03:41 PM
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He's too far left. I think the only thing that he has not promised to be free is hookers and coke .
  #52  
Old 02-24-2020, 03:45 PM
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I think you've just unlocked the secret to taking the evangelical voting block from Trump.
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  #53  
Old 02-24-2020, 03:59 PM
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I'm not sure they will: when you're willing to lie outright, and when your base is so willing to believe the lies, your path is pretty easy.
It's not the base they're going to be talking to. Trump's already got the base locked up. And Sanders has a lot of people in his base that are guaranteed to vote for him.

The election will be decided by the other people. Those who will be deciding who they're going to vote for between now and November. These are people who won't believe anything the Republicans say - but they will listen to what the Republicans are saying.
  #54  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:13 PM
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The results will not reflect the desires of voters.
They are not supposed to. The results should reflect how the voters vote.
Not their ruminations prior to entering the polling booth, nor what they say in the exit-poll.
  #55  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:22 PM
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Progressives don't support Blue Trump (Bloomberg) at all, and in general consider him to be, well, Trump with MAGA hats in Blue instead of Red.
When some people can't tell the difference between a man who's donated millions to fight climate change and another human-like being who's only created "charitable foundations" to line his own pockets and doesn't believe climate change is real, merely because both claim to be billionaires (though only one actually is), then other people can reasonably conclude that the first people are as delusional (in a different direction, to be fair) as the Trumpists who still believe their orange god is going to drain the swamp and build that wall.
  #56  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:23 PM
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I think it depends on a number of things that he does in the general election campaign.

1. Don't say the word "millionaire", and don't even say the word "billionaire."... OK. Now he needs to make America hate the billionaires. We already know that they're villains to him. If he's going to win, they need to be the villains to US.

2. He cannot merely be the "angry yelling man." He NEEDS for his speeches to also incorporate some humor, some levity, some level-headed optimistic talk - he needs to warm peoples' hearts...

3. He needs to make it REALLY clear that he is not a communist.

4. Above all: he needs to refute the idea that he wants to "burn it all down." I repeatedly hear people describe Sanders this way. It's bullshit. He doesn't want to burn it all down. The things he wants to implement ALREADY EXIST IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES.
I see some contradiction in 1 and 2. Running explicitly on making any group, even 'the billionaire class', 'villains' is angry. I think Sanders would say, and believes, and you seem to agree, 'we' have to be angry. But negative appeals like that are why Sanders is viewed as a shouting angry person. I'm not sure how you do 1. non-angrily.

And as to the pure stylistic aspects of 2, that's just who he is. Trump and he are pretty different people overall but both old men with a good deal of success in their respective spheres with their respective personal styles. That type of person is usually pretty resistant to trying to changing that style. The guy might really have virtually no sense of humor, as one would assume listening to his public speech (maybe in private he does have one; HRC is by many accounts a warm person with her friends, but trying to be that publicly didn't work for her, and for anyone there's a risk of not appearing true to yourself; up to now appearing true to himself is a big Sanders strength).

For 3 if you're arguing in a US general national election that you're not a Communist, you're not in a good place. Even mentioning the word I think would be a bad idea.

The claim in 3&4 that Sanders' proposals are conventional in other rich countries will surely be part of his pitch. That's already a standard pitch in defense of progressive proposals in US politics by all kinds of people. Although, the appeal to some key US voter groups or 'look at foreigners' might be questioned. Anyway it's true *to some extent*, is a reasonable argument to the ears of some voters and he will use this argument I'm sure.

But, Sanders is really quite far left on some things. For example no country has a wealth tax with % anywhere near as high as the 8% max Sanders proposes. The US would move far to the left of any country if that were actually implemented. Not every rich country even has an estate tax (Canada, Sweden and Norway don't among others) and none have a rate approaching the 77% max Sanders proposes. Many people support Sanders but doubt those proposals would pass without being severely watered down, if at all, but the candidate himself can't use that argument.

On the billionaire issue it's really a matter of arguing the US has a bigger problem with very wealthy people and has to take much more radical action than any other other country so far. The Sanders base likes to hear that, but I really doubt it could resonate a lot more broadly. OTOH Sanders could steer more away from talking about billionaires and stick more to talking about greater social welfare benefits ('free' health care, college, etc), but not paid for by higher taxes on most voters. The billionaire part is still implicit (they have to pay, again to the extent one thinks the proposals could pass and Sanders math holds up even if) but IMO a mistake to emphasize trying to turn the average voters' attitude into the average Sanders' base voter's attitude toward billionaires.

Last edited by Corry El; 02-24-2020 at 04:25 PM.
  #57  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:36 PM
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Trump blustered his way to the top against Rubio, Kasich, JEB etc., and then bullied his way against Hillary.

Debating Trump successfully has nothing to do with smarts. What's required is to call out his tantrums as rude and infantile, while remaining calm. I hope Bernie is the man to do that.
Trump has already made noises about not doing debates, "because of the biased media". In reality he's scared to death of having to face someone with passion and truth behind him/her, because that person will rip him to shreds. If it's Buttigieg or Bloomberg, he'll debate; if it's Sanders, Warren or Biden, he'll pass.
  #58  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:36 PM
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I see some contradiction in 1 and 2. Running explicitly on making any group, even 'the billionaire class', 'villains' is angry. I think Sanders would say, and believes, and you seem to agree, 'we' have to be angry. But negative appeals like that are why Sanders is viewed as a shouting angry person. I'm not sure how you do 1. non-angrily.
Well, it's actually pretty easy. Just don't shout so much.

I'm completely serious - the tone of someone's voice is extremely important to how they and their ideas are perceived. If Sanders can discuss the rapacious greed of the billionaire class in a calm way without raising his voice, he can make more of an impact than he would be able to if he stuck with his angry hectoring style.
  #59  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:38 PM
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If it's Buttigieg or Bloomberg, he'll debate; if it's Sanders, Warren or Biden, he'll pass.
You want to make a wager on that? Just between us? I have Paypal, Venmo and Zelle. I swear to God I will pay out if you're right. How's $200? PM me if you really want to do this.
  #60  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:39 PM
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I really don't get the idea that 'Bernie can't win because Republicans will call him socialist'. They already call everyone they run against socialist and their base eats it up and vote Republican, so I can't see it making that much of a difference.

The problem isnít the Republicans calling Bernie a socialist itís Bernie calling Bernie a socialist. No one cares about the base. No one cares about anyone on either side that already knows who they are voting for. Itís how will it play with the 20% that everyone cares about. Itís about those thin slices of voters in the swing states.
  #61  
Old 02-24-2020, 04:51 PM
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Clinton and Obama did not propose all kinds of major new taxes and spending when they were running. At least not that I recall. I recall Mondale saying he was going to raise taxes which led to 13 electoral votes. Reagan would have won anyway but Mondale should have done better than 13 EC votes.
  #62  
Old 02-24-2020, 05:05 PM
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I would give him around a 1/3 chance of beating Trump.
Sounds as good as any guess to me.

I can't see Sanders doing as well in the popular vote as Hillary did. But Bernie's base of support varies enough from Hillary's that the electoral college could be shuffled differently. A recent study estimated that the Democratic ticket has a 35 percent chance of winning in a photo finish. Not a bad fit with your estimated chances!

I am going to, at slight risk of having to eat my words, rule out Bernie Sanders getting a majority, or having positive coattails for the House and Senate.

Sanders and Trump are both weak candidates due to motivating their opponent's supporters to get off their duff and vote.

P.S. As I've posted before, I'm skeptical that Mike Pence would name Bernie the winner at the joint electoral vote counting session on January 6. But I take the OP question to concern who would legitimately win.
  #63  
Old 02-24-2020, 06:26 PM
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The Dems are going to screw Bernie again
  #64  
Old 02-24-2020, 06:53 PM
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I hear this repeatedly on this board and I have to wonder what reality the people are living in who put forth the idea that Trump would not debate his opponent. Trump LIVES for that stage. He would sooner cut off his own dick with a pair of pruning shears than miss an opportunity for the whole country to see him shit-talk the Democratic nominee. He's GOING to be on that goddamn stage and whoever debates him is going to have to prepare very, very hard for it.
What reality are you posting from? Because in my reality, Trump skipped a debate in the 2016 primaries.
  #65  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:01 PM
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Bernie is a lot like Edith Keeler.

The message is right, but the timing is wrong.
  #66  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:09 PM
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I don't. but if Bernie is the Democratic nominee then I'm damn sure going to vote for him. But what I think doesn't always reflect what is thought by others out there. For example, I didn't think there were enough fucking moronic voters to put Trump in the oval office, but here we are.
  #67  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:17 PM
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I voted no, but that's not because I don't like Sanders or think he has less of a chance than the other Dems. I don't think any Democrat is going to beat Trump.
  #68  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:27 PM
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Wow...ok:

- Sanders polls better at beating Trump than any other candidate.

In 2016 Trump's own pollster opined that Sanders would have beaten Trump were he the nominee.

Sanders is currently the front runner. Complain all you want that he does not have 50% but everyone else has fewer.

Sanders is clearly energizing the party in ways that other candidates simply are not. Look at Sanders' rallies compared to anyone else. They wish they could do nearly as well. Dems do better when voter turnout is high. So far Sanders seems best at doing that among the current crop.

You may say that Sanders can not beat Trump but you have no reason to think any other Dem candidate would do better beyond wishful thinking.
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  #69  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:48 PM
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The Dems are going to screw Bernie again
And what obligation does the Democratic party have to someone who has never joined?

Bernie will lose because Bernie is lying to the American people. Even if the Democrats take the Senate and hold the House, Sanders doesn't have the backing of "his" party. He knows that, so whenever he says my administration will blah blah blah, he is lying. Empty promises from an empty suit.
  #70  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:54 PM
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The problem isnít the Republicans calling Bernie a socialist itís Bernie calling Bernie a socialist. No one cares about the base. No one cares about anyone on either side that already knows who they are voting for. Itís how will it play with the 20% that everyone cares about. Itís about those thin slices of voters in the swing states.
This. No one waving a socialist flag is going to win any time soon. You might have socialist values, but you're going to have to rebrand it and call it something else. Bernie has been a self proclaimed socialist for far too long to be able to sail on that boat.

This time around Trump will walk off with the majority vote as well for one of two reasons.
a) BS gets the nomination and hangs from his socialist flagpole.
b) The DNC 'steals' the nomination from him and the BernBros stay home in disgust.

But look at the bright side. You won't have to try to come up with a plan to defeat him in 2024.
  #71  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:55 PM
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And what obligation does the Democratic party have to someone who has never joined?

Bernie will lose because Bernie is lying to the American people. Even if the Democrats take the Senate and hold the House, Sanders doesn't have the backing of "his" party. He knows that, so whenever he says my administration will blah blah blah, he is lying. Empty promises from an empty suit.
If that happens, Dems take control of both houses and Sanders gets the presidency and then the Dems thwart Sanders the Dems are only ruining their own party. Come next election it will be easy to point to them and say they couldn't get shit done and it'll swing back to the republicans.

Republicans are great at getting everyone in their caucus to march in lock-step. Even when members hate each other they side with each other (almost always). Dems have never been good at that and what you describe is only worse.

If the Dems want to commit political suicide because they are butthurt that Sanders won then I'm not sure the party deserves a future.
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  #72  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:56 PM
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Wow...ok:

- Sanders polls better at beating Trump than any other candidate.

In 2016 Trump's own pollster opined that Sanders would have beaten Trump were he the nominee.

Sanders is currently the front runner. Complain all you want that he does not have 50% but everyone else has fewer.

Sanders is clearly energizing the party in ways that other candidates simply are not. Look at Sanders' rallies compared to anyone else. They wish they could do nearly as well. Dems do better when voter turnout is high. So far Sanders seems best at doing that among the current crop.

You may say that Sanders can not beat Trump but you have no reason to think any other Dem candidate would do better beyond wishful thinking.
Hillary Clinton got three million votes more than Donald Trump got in 2016 and lost in the EC vote. I predict that Sanders will get at least three million votes less than Donald Trump and will get fewer EC votes than Clinton got.

I'm not happy about this. I really don't want to see four more years of Trump as President. But if there's a silver lining to this dark cloud, it's that Bernie Bros will finally have to stop saying that Sanders would have been the better choice in 2016.

And if I'm wrong and Sanders wins, I'll be so happy Trump lost I won't care.
  #73  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:57 PM
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This. No one waving a socialist flag is going to win any time soon. You might have socialist values, but you're going to have to rebrand it and call it something else. Bernie has been a self proclaimed socialist for far too long to be able to sail on that boat.
Except he has, his whole career (35 years or more) and did very well in 2016 primaries and is winning now.

They numpties who all scream "socialist!" and freak out are not the people who would vote for any democrat anyway.
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  #74  
Old 02-24-2020, 07:58 PM
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Hillary Clinton got three million votes more than Donald Trump got in 2016 and lost in the EC vote. I predict that Sanders will get at least three million votes less than Donald Trump and will get fewer EC votes than Clinton got.
Assuming it is Trump vs. Sanders in the general election you wanna bet?
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  #75  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:01 PM
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This message board has a new very specific rule that says "no betting". Fyi.
  #76  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:26 PM
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Look at Sanders' rallies compared to anyone else.
Funny you said that today.

I realize that the great majority of the people packing that cricket stadium for Trump aren't U.S. voters, but I did think someone should you give the obvious response.

Actually, crowds are, like polls many months before election day, a poor predictor of election results.

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Dems do better when voter turnout is high.
Could Higher Turnout Actually Help Trump?
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The Knight Foundation asked nonvoters if they would be more likely to vote to re-elect President Donald Trump, vote for the Democratic Partyís nominee for president or vote for someone else. Nationally, more said theyíd vote for the Democrat. But in more battleground states, more nonvoters preferred Trump.
Maybe it doesn't much matter who replaces Trump, because they won't get much through Congress, won't get Supreme Court nominees confirmed, and will see their executive orders overturned by GOP courts. As for foreign policy, Sanders' need to prove he's not pacifist or communist, already evident, could make him, if not reckless like Trump, then a fairly typical Democrat in the unlikely event he moves into the White House next January. This is the conservative case for Bernie Sanders -- he'll have zero coattails and won't be able to do much.
  #77  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:27 PM
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This message board has a new very specific rule that says "no betting". Fyi.
You're right. I didn't know about it, but I guess I should have read the rules. Sorry. Forget about that.
  #78  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:28 PM
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This message board has a new very specific rule that says "no betting". Fyi.
Even to benefit a charity?
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  #79  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:30 PM
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What reality are you posting from? Because in my reality, Trump skipped a debate in the 2016 primaries.
Yes, OK, he skipped one debate. In the primary. Not because he was afraid of debating anyone, but because he was engaged in a feud with Fox News. There's a very big difference between that, and not debating the Democratic challenger in the general election.
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:33 PM
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You realize that is not a political rally for Trump where the people there came to see Trump right?



I'll believe that when red states start implementing measures to get more of their citizens (all of them) to the polls rather than doing the opposite as they are now.
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  #81  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:40 PM
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Even to benefit a charity?
Yes, even then it's considered a bullshit macho move. As I understand it.
  #82  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:47 PM
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Yes, even then it's considered a bullshit macho move. As I understand it.
Fair enough. I was not aware of the new rule. Thanks for pointing it out.

I do not see how it is a "bullshit macho move" though. If it were for some huge amount maybe a bullshit macho move since one person may not be as able to lose money as much as the other. If it were for a dollar or a gentlemen's bet hardly macho and just pride on the line. If it were to benefit a charity it would even result in some good.

But rules are rules.

Back to the thread at hand...
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  #83  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:21 PM
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Ironically, I don't think Trump and the GOP will be able to hurt Bernie; I think Bernie will be a victim of his own success. Bernie will probably get close to Trump in terms of polling, and maybe even some polls will have Bernie slightly ahead.

But Sanders will absolutely motivate Trump's base to show up at the polls - absolutely. That's one problem, though I think that's true of any Dem opponent.

But the bigger problem is that people will start to wonder, "Is this fucker for real?" You mean Bernie really wants to change the whole goddamn system and he's polling at 50%? He wants free college and he's polling at 50%? He wants free childcare and he's polling at 50%?

Ordinary people know damn well that Mitch McConnell and the Republicans aren't going to pass even a fraction of the massive taxes that would be required, and at some point people are going to start asking how it's going to be paid for. And unlike the Bros, people will want answers.

Sanders is a movement, but a movement isn't necessarily a president.
  #84  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:24 PM
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If that happens, Dems take control of both houses and Sanders gets the presidency and then the Dems thwart Sanders the Dems are only ruining their own party. Come next election it will be easy to point to them and say they couldn't get shit done and it'll swing back to the republicans.

Republicans are great at getting everyone in their caucus to march in lock-step. Even when members hate each other they side with each other (almost always). Dems have never been good at that and what you describe is only worse.

If the Dems want to commit political suicide because they are butthurt that Sanders won then I'm not sure the party deserves a future.
This isn't a grass roots movement from the ground up but rather a cult of personality candidate making promises from the top down. Sure, a lot of Democrats will hold their noses and vote for Sanders over Trump. It doesn't mean they endorse his agenda. Why do you think Sanders has never had any legislative successes? Why do you think he never joined the party? He's not a Democrat and the Democratic party is not beholden to him. There isn't going to be any mandate. It really worries me that his koolaid guzzling fans are so ignorant of the realpolitik. They're going to be hurt badly no matter which way this election goes.
  #85  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:26 PM
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This isn't a grass roots movement from the ground up but rather a cult of personality candidate making promises from the top down. Sure, a lot of Democrats will hold their noses and vote for Sanders over Trump. It doesn't mean they endorse his agenda. Why do you think Sanders has never had any legislative successes? Why do you think he never joined the party? He's not a Democrat and the Democratic party is not beholden to him. There isn't going to be any mandate. It really worries me that his koolaid guzzling fans are so ignorant of the realpolitik. They're going to be hurt badly no matter which way this election goes.
And another thing: those koolaid guzzling cultist Bernie bros are SO RUDE!
  #86  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:27 PM
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Except he has, his whole career (35 years or more) and did very well in 2016 primaries and is winning now.

They numpties who all scream "socialist!" and freak out are not the people who would vote for any democrat anyway.
Well actual democrats are screaming socialist. Are folks like James Carville and Chris Matthews freaked out numpties?
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Old 02-24-2020, 09:28 PM
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I'm not seeing where this bizarre consensus that the front-runner who consistently polls higher than Trump is doomed to lose because "something something George McGovern" is coming from.
  #88  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:34 PM
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Well actual democrats are screaming socialist. Are folks like James Carville and Chris Matthews freaked out numpties?
Err...yeah!

Did you see their recent, unhinged rants?

(To be fair Matthews always sounds unhinged. It's just how he rolls. He probably sounds unhinged ordering a Big Mac at McDonalds.)
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 02-24-2020 at 09:37 PM.
  #89  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:37 PM
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After Bernie is subjected to a carpet-bombing GOP ad campaign as to his honeymoon in Soviet Moscow, his (democratic) socialism, his past praise of Castro and Ortega, insulting comments about the Democratic Party, and his plans to raise taxes and drastically cut military spending, I'm afraid that Trump will smugly - infuriatingly - be able to look forward to a second term.
  #90  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
After Bernie is subjected to a carpet-bombing GOP ad campaign as to his honeymoon in Soviet Moscow, his (democratic) socialism, his past praise of Castro and Ortega, insulting comments about the Democratic Party, and his plans to raise taxes and drastically cut military spending, I'm afraid that Trump will smugly - infuriatingly - be able to look forward to a second term.
Has Bernie made any public comments about how much he would cut the defense budget (in actual numbers - i.e., $200 billion?) Since defense spending is by far the largest discretionary spending, that would be integral to all of his other social plans.
  #91  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
After Bernie is subjected to a carpet-bombing GOP ad campaign as to his honeymoon in Soviet Moscow, his (democratic) socialism, his past praise of Castro and Ortega, insulting comments about the Democratic Party, and his plans to raise taxes and drastically cut military spending, I'm afraid that Trump will smugly - infuriatingly - be able to look forward to a second term.
So, you think this is all a secret that the GOP will unleash on the uninformed hordes after the conventions?

C'mon...Sanders is a known quantity. No one is going to be surprised or shocked learning something in a few months that they didn't know now unless they are living under a rock.
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  #92  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:55 PM
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No, Bernie won't beat Trump.

The policy ideas that make Bernie fans aren't the ones that get people to the voting booth. Medicare for All isn't even a starter. The president can't just decree it and have it done and Congress won't pass it. Free college? Lots of people who paid their way and their kids' way want nothing to do with it.

Maybe if we could get Bernie to downplay those ideas in favor of talking about potential Supreme Court appointments, about protecting abortion rights, about finding a solution to the gun death epidemic, about finding a way to save Social Security and ensure it exists for future generations, MAYBE then he would be able to resonate with what actually gets people out of their chairs and to the polls. But it's not gonna happen. If he hasn't started talking that way by now he never will.

I don't actually see anyone in the field who can beat Trump right now. I haven't even been able to decide how to vote in the primary as the field including Bernie are all so...lacking.

I'll vote for whichever candidate wins the Democratic nomination, because I despise Trump and all he stands for. I don't yet have a preference although one of those blind policy tests told me my ideas match closest to Bloomberg. But he's not going to take it either.

I'm feeling very pessimistic about November.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:00 PM
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Disclaimer: I'm not a Bernie voter first and foremost or anything. I'd rather see Elizabeth Warren. I wouldn't cry if the nominee were a yet-different non-Bernie Democrat. He totally has my vote if he gets the nom, but so would the others.

----

Anyone who says "Bernie Sanders can't win the general election" needs to step back. You don't know that. Donald freaking TRUMP won the previous election. Did you think he could? Do you think the Republican establishment thought he could? I think our ability to predict this stuff is an ability not recently demonstrated.

I actually think it's possible that some Trump voters would consider voting for Sanders. Yeah, I know the politics are diametrically opposed. But these are voters who vote for personality, for someone to give 'em hell and shake up the established system. Keep in mind that Trump didn't exactly represent their best interests, like he's gonna champion them and their concerns overall. They saw some places where it seemed that he would and they liked his attitude. They might see places where Bernie seems like he would, and he's got attitude. I'm talking about the folks in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and Michigan and Iowa and Ohio who are feeling left out of the political considerations. Both politicians are populists.

He's not my choice. He actually doesn't have a huge appeal to me, although I do want single-payer universal health insurance. But if populism is in the ascendancy he could totally take it.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:01 PM
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I don't think anyone can beat Trump.

That said, if anyone has a chance, it's Bernie. Right now, both bases are fired up and ready to vote. The only people left to get fired up is the young people and minorities. And Bernie has got that better than Trump.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:13 PM
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The policy ideas that make Bernie fans aren't the ones that get people to the voting booth. Medicare for All isn't even a starter.
Why not? Almost every country on the planet has this. Why is it inconceivable here?

Quote:
Free college? Lots of people who paid their way and their kids' way want nothing to do with it.
Why not? The US used to have free colleges. What stands in the way is some butthurt asshole who figures since she/he had to pay tuition everyone else for the rest of time should too? Fuck them! Seriously, that is like slaves protesting freeing slaves because if they lived as slaves the other must too. Insanity.

Quote:
I don't actually see anyone in the field who can beat Trump right now. I haven't even been able to decide how to vote in the primary as the field including Bernie are all so...lacking.
All polls show Sanders beating Trump.


Quote:
I'll vote for whichever candidate wins the Democratic nomination, because I despise Trump and all he stands for. I don't yet have a preference although one of those blind policy tests told me my ideas match closest to Bloomberg. But he's not going to take it either.
If you match closest to Bloomberg than you are more conservative than liberal. If Republicans had let candidates run against Trump I think the Republican party would have had a super-solid chance and winning again with a new Republican. But they prevented that.

Bloomberg was a Republican now turned Democrat. Funny since Trump was a Democrat turned Republican. More billionaires in the White House. Yay!
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 02-24-2020 at 10:13 PM.
  #96  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:28 PM
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Has Bernie made any public comments about how much he would cut the defense budget (in actual numbers - i.e., $200 billion?) Since defense spending is by far the largest discretionary spending, that would be integral to all of his other social plans.
He's been careful not to get into hard numbers, but it'll be easy for the Trumpinistas to spin it as him wanting draconian cuts and hurting US national security:

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/2/1852558...itary-spending
https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...t-defense-bud/
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/p...ernie-sanders/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
So, you think this is all a secret that the GOP will unleash on the uninformed hordes after the conventions?

C'mon...Sanders is a known quantity. No one is going to be surprised or shocked learning something in a few months that they didn't know now unless they are living under a rock.
If he's the nominee, lots of blue-collar and older Dems are going to hear a lot of stuff about Bernie, much of it from his own lips and his own pen, that they didn't know before. And it won't be helpful to Bernie, much as I wish it were otherwise.
  #97  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
If you match closest to Bloomberg than you are more conservative than liberal. If Republicans had let candidates run against Trump I think the Republican party would have had a super-solid chance and winning again with a new Republican. But they prevented that.
You should probably inform Bill Weld of this.
  #98  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
If he's the nominee, lots of blue-collar and older Dems are going to hear a lot of stuff about Bernie, much of it from his own lips and his own pen, that they didn't know before. And it won't be helpful to Bernie, much as I wish it were otherwise.
Sanders' whole shtick is working for blue collar workers. What do they think unions are? A pure vision of capitalism? Collective bargaining is a socialist thing, not a capitalist thing.

In 2016 Sanders' appeal was he was able to peel off blue collar workers on the fringe. When Sanders was out they went back to Trump. As close as it was that is the reason Trump's own pollster felt Sanders would have won where Clinton lost.

Remember Sanders beat Clinton in Michigan in 2016. Sanders plays well in the Rust Belt.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 02-24-2020 at 10:40 PM.
  #99  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:44 PM
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If the economy doesn't crash before November, no. Nope. Trump wine.

If it does crash, maybe Bernie will win.

This Caronavirus did not come at a good time for Trump.
  #100  
Old 02-24-2020, 10:59 PM
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Why not? Almost every country on the planet has this. Why is it inconceivable here?
Because Congress isn't going to pass it and the President doesn't get to create it out of thin air. I think it's possible that we may eventually end up with MFA but if we do, it's more likely to be successfully done in incremental steps. I want healthcare for all too, but I want to know that it will be successful before we throw out the current system.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Why not? The US used to have free colleges. What stands in the way is some butthurt asshole who figures since she/he had to pay tuition everyone else for the rest of time should too? Fuck them! Seriously, that is like slaves protesting freeing slaves because if they lived as slaves the other must too. Insanity.
Another thing I would like to see eventually, but I'm also realistic. People who don't think college is a must aren't interested in paying for someone else (or someone else's kid) to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
I don't care what the polls say in February. After 2016, I'm not likely to care what they say in October either. I want Trump/Pence gone and I would be happy to be wrong. I'm just very afraid that I'm right.
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