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  #201  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Liz really withheld a lot of votes that could have gone to Bernie.
Good
  #202  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:04 AM
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I mailed my California ballot yesterday and it might not be counted for a few days, while the mega-counties down south will surely take even longer. Mail-ins don't respond to exit polls. We'll have no idea how California goes till next week probably. But keep hoping.

Meanwhile, I'm surprised at all the badmouthing here of Biden as a weak, vulnerable candidate. The orange terror obviously fears Biden the most. Should I suspect lurking Trampian assets on SDMB?
Nah, just folks who are disappointed their candidates didn't win blowing off steam I'd imagine. That and a little bit of fear.

We both forgot another important clue about Biden. Trumps boss, Putin and his cronies are not only assisting Trump they are assisting the Sanders campaign. They do not want to face Biden either.
  #203  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:05 AM
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Meanwhile, I'm surprised at all the badmouthing here of Biden as a weak, vulnerable candidate. The orange terror obviously fears Biden the most. Should I suspect lurking Trampian assets on SDMB?
How could anyone with even the most modest ability to read other human beings, NOT see the blatant vulnerability and weakness in Biden every time he opens his mouth to mumble another nonsensical stream of words?

You can call him "Tramp" all you want, you seem to never miss an opportunity to say it like it's the most clever nickname known to man, but this is a guy that knocked down the entire field of Republican challengers like a bunch of bowling pins, then went on to beat someone who I was told for an entire year was a LOCK for the Presidency. He's a vicious campaigner who fights dirty, doesn't follow the established playbook at all, and enjoys a following more loyal than any Republican president that I can remember in my lifetime. (I'm 33.)

You really need ME to explain all this to you? Haven't you been paying attention to the past 4 years?
  #204  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:07 AM
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Trumps boss, Putin and his cronies are not only assisting Trump they are assisting the Sanders campaign. They do not want to face Biden either.
And when Biden loses because he's a piece of shit candidate, who are you going to blame? Sanders, of course.
  #205  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:10 AM
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That would indeed be unprecedented and probably illegal.
Sorry. Delegates. I'm tired, like Joe Biden.
  #206  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:18 AM
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And when Biden loses because he's a piece of shit candidate, who are you going to blame? Sanders, of course.
They'll blame Sanders and his supporters if the moderate loses the election, just like they did in 2016.

Biden does have serious flaws. His actions with women, his mental decline, his son getting a job in Ukraine. Like it or not these will come up in the election.

I hope he wins the general if he is the nominee though, but who knows what'll happen.
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  #207  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:32 AM
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I agree with this. I'd have liked to have seen Kamala Harris do better. Or Jay Inslee. Or Julian Castro. Probably even Corey Booker. But they didn't, and you go with the candidate you have than can win.

Indeed. The way the field thinned by the end of 2019 was actually kind of a nightmare to me, but I've been trying to take lemons and make lemonade. Check out what I posted on Facebook last April: https://twitter.com/SlackerInc/statu...83200327757825

All the candidates I disliked the most were the only ones left!


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One bit of party-wide good news - AFAICT from various online sources, Democratic turnout is way, way up since '16. Sometimes in the 538 live blog said that VA turnout was up by 67%! So that's great news. I think Biden is a very, very weak candidate, but if he gets the nomination I hope I'm wrong.

Yes, turnout is way up--but not from Bernie's youth brigade. Just like in 2018, it's older and more moderate Dems who are doing the heavy lifting.


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That's why Biden isn't running alone, and won't be through the rest of this primary slog.

The sooner Biden can lock up that 1,991, the sooner we'll get back to the Biden/Obama buddy movie. It will run throughout the general election. Meantime, surrogates Klobuchar (soon to be Veep, I've said so for ages), Buttegieg, O'Rourke, Harris, Clyburn, Bloomberg, Steyer, Booker, Inslee et. al will fan out all across the country, giving Biden the help he needs to finish up this campaign.

Biden will be a fine president. He governs far better than he campaigns.

I, too, am very relieved to hear about the turnout numbers. This is going to be a turnout election. The theme is basic human decency.

This is very well stated. People aren't going to hear Biden stumble through his words and decide because of a few malapropisms that they might go vote for Trump instead. That is the kind of thing that can happen in an election like 2000 where it's very close but most of the country doesn't really care that much. People know Biden is decent even if he's tongue-tied, and as you say he's got that awesome roster of Democrats to back him up.


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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Biden is a centrist Democrat and the majority of Democrats are centrists. He does extremely well with black voters, and their lack of turnout in key states was sufficient to explain the narrow margins Trump won them by. He isn't a socialist.

And that last statement is everything. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a democratic socialist of Bernie's ilk. Except to the people for whom the word socialist eats into their brains with all the terror of a ten-foot zombie tarantula. And that's probably half the country. If Sanders gets nominated, no matter what he says, no matter who supports him, no matter how good his ideas are, the country will hear SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST a thousand times a day. Nothing else will penetrate. The party will be so demonized that it might need a generation to recover.

Sanders is the worst possible candidate for the real America of 2020. Anyone hiding the word SOCIALIST until the bottom of a long post probably recognizes that unconsciously. It is death. You have to go back to Al Smith in 1928 when the word CATHOLIC was similar anathema to find an equivalent. Democrats told themselves then that being a Catholic was meaningless, that nobody really cared, that his plans and ideas were better than Hoover's. None of that mattered against the perpetual din of CATHOLIC CATHOLIC CATHOLIC. A generation later that identification no longer dominated. Today it's a total non-issue. A democratic socialist will be similarly accepted in another generation. Maybe sooner.

But not in 2020.

The Democratic candidate cannot be a SOCIALIST. Nothing else compares. Nothing. Whatever Biden's faults are - and yes, they are many and he never was my candidate - at least he isn't a SOCIALIST. Every other adult politician in the party understands that, which is why Buttigeg and Klobuchar dropped out of the race and endorsed Biden. They did it for the Democratic party and because the only thing that matters in this election is defeating Trump. A SOCIALIST will lose the Presidency, keep the party from winning the Senate, and maybe lose the house as well. No sane Democrat could stand to see that happen.

You have two choices. A SOCIALIST and Trump winning or a non-socialist and the chance of defeating Trump. That's it. Like it or not. That's reality in 2020.

::standing ovation::


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As a Sanders supporter, one sad realization is the fact that in 2016 many Sanders supporters weren't voting for Sanders, they were voting against Hillary Clinton. They didn't like Sanders, they just disliked Hillary. Sanders is doing worse in states in 2020 than he did in 2016, including his home state.

But its also good because I assume a lot of people voting for Biden are voting 'for' Biden because they like him. And hopefully he has good turnout in November if he is the nominee. Hillary got about 66 million voters, but the democratic nominee is probably going to need at least 67-68 million to deal with the bias in the electoral college (Obama got 69 million in 2008). I really hope Biden has 70+ million voter turnout if he is the nominee when the general election happens.

Good post.
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  #208  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:38 AM
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82% of the votes from Texas are in and Biden is up by 50,000 votes. The more they count, the more his lead widens over Bernie.

ETA: NBC just called Texas for Biden. So the only big win for Bernie appears to be California.

Last edited by Kolak of Twilo; 03-04-2020 at 12:41 AM.
  #209  
Old 03-04-2020, 12:53 AM
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And when Biden loses because he's a piece of shit candidate, who are you going to blame? Sanders, of course.
LOL, I supported Sanders in 2016 and got pilloried when I decided not to waste my time voting for Hillary in an state that my vote truly didn't matter ( it was on this board so you can look it up ). I was upset that the Clinton voters disdained Sanders voters with the Bernie Bro label which frankly people are still doing and now I am accused by a Sandernista of being an establishment stooge. My how times change huh?

The fact is, I don't feel Bernie is a great candidate even though again, I am closer to his ideology than any other candidate. If I were supporting based on my ideology at this point it'd be Warren all the way.

Fact is though, like my former South Carolinian neighbors, I like Joe Biden. He had disappointed me at the beginning of the race so I was going with my second choice which was Warren but the foot is on the other hand now as she's flamed out and he's risen.

But if I were to blame Sanders for Biden losing to Trump it would be terribly hypocritical and that I assuredly am not.

Don't give me that crap about Biden's verbal gaffes and incoherence making a damned bit of difference after W and Trump. It sure as hell didn['t hurt either of them and we can go back to second term Reagan for that matter who was already suffering from alzheimers. You can make bold statements but current history doesn't jive with your position.
  #210  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:03 AM
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They'll blame Sanders and his supporters if the moderate loses the election, just like they did in 2016.
You better check yourself Wesley. That was a direct question to me not to a "they" and I am not nor have I ever been a they.

But I have already answered the question and I did not blame myself for Trump in 2016 not then or now. I can't in all honestly say I've never blamed any candidate or their supporters for my candidate's losses but both times ( Nader and Stein ) they ran as alternate parties and that said that's not really an excuse. I really shouldn't blame them or anyone who is exercising their rights under a democracy but what can I say, I'm human.
'
  #211  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:23 AM
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Nah. Those petulant children can have a pat on the head, mommy will make them a hot pocket, and they can go back to the basement and get on the tweety bird.
Rather a lot of chutzpah making that comment while pimping your Twitter feed in your sig.
  #212  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:39 AM
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Biden is a centrist Democrat and the majority of Democrats are centrists. He does extremely well with black voters, and their lack of turnout in key states was sufficient to explain the narrow margins Trump won them by. He isn't a socialist.

And that last statement is everything. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a democratic socialist of Bernie's ilk. Except to the people for whom the word socialist eats into their brains with all the terror of a ten-foot zombie tarantula. And that's probably half the country. If Sanders gets nominated, no matter what he says, no matter who supports him, no matter how good his ideas are, the country will hear SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST a thousand times a day. Nothing else will penetrate. The party will be so demonized that it might need a generation to recover.

Sanders is the worst possible candidate for the real America of 2020. Anyone hiding the word SOCIALIST until the bottom of a long post probably recognizes that unconsciously. It is death. You have to go back to Al Smith in 1928 when the word CATHOLIC was similar anathema to find an equivalent. Democrats told themselves then that being a Catholic was meaningless, that nobody really cared, that his plans and ideas were better than Hoover's. None of that mattered against the perpetual din of CATHOLIC CATHOLIC CATHOLIC. A generation later that identification no longer dominated. Today it's a total non-issue. A democratic socialist will be similarly accepted in another generation. Maybe sooner.

But not in 2020.

The Democratic candidate cannot be a SOCIALIST. Nothing else compares. Nothing. Whatever Biden's faults are - and yes, they are many and he never was my candidate - at least he isn't a SOCIALIST. Every other adult politician in the party understands that, which is why Buttigeg and Klobuchar dropped out of the race and endorsed Biden. They did it for the Democratic party and because the only thing that matters in this election is defeating Trump. A SOCIALIST will lose the Presidency, keep the party from winning the Senate, and maybe lose the house as well. No sane Democrat could stand to see that happen.

You have two choices. A SOCIALIST and Trump winning or a non-socialist and the chance of defeating Trump. That's it. Like it or not. That's reality in 2020.
I’m sorry, but this strikes me as being just more of the same paternalistic liberal out of touch fear mongering we got with Obama and Buttigieg. “Of course, I’d vote for a black man. But what about them? The shoeless rubes in tornado alley...sorry, ‘Real America’ aren’t evolved enough to do that. Best play it safe and go with Hillary”. “Of course, I’d vote for a gay candidate. But if you think a gay POTUS and his First Gentleman will play in Peoria then you’ve got another think coming, bucko! Best play it safe and nominate Biden. ‘Real America’ isn’t ready for anyone else”. “Of course, I’d vote for a Democratic Socialist, but....etc”

Middle-class liberals, I implore you. Stop trying to guess what ‘Real America’ wants. You’re objectively terrible at it. You always get it wrong.

This is the problem with Democrats. About half of them are regular people who just want a candidate who’ll work for them. The other half are effete liberals, untouched by economic anxiety, who think they’re way smarter than they are, and who pick their candidates based on what they think the rest of the country will accept. But they look down their noses at the rest of the country so they always get it wrong.

Your post is a prime example. You genuinely seem to believe that half your countrymen are basically Pavlovian dogs who’ll piss themselves every time they hear the word ‘Socialism’. They won’t try to understand what Bernie’s selling, even though many of them need it, because they’re just too stupid. They’ll hear the word ‘Socialism’ and just shut down like 60 million broken computers. They're so hypnotised by those four magic syllables that all the arguments for M4A, student debt relief, and Wall Street reform - all of which enjoy broad bipartisan support - will simply bounce off them. There are no words for how condescending that is.

Tell you what, re-read your post and replace every incidence of the word ‘Socialism’ with the words ‘WASHINGTON INSIDER’. Then you’ll have a more-or-less accurate summary of what actually happened in 2016. And now, thanks in large part to the attitudes of people like you, the Democrats are poised to nominate not just another Washington Insider, but a Washington Insider who is clearly losing his damn mind on live TV. Did you see his victory speech last night? He got his wife confused with his sister, and then promised an actual cure for cancer. It was pitiful. Trump’s going to flatten him.

Sorry for the rant, but it’s so plain to me that Democrats haven’t learn the lessons of 2016 and I’m truly worried that you’ve just bought the world another four years of Trump.
  #213  
Old 03-04-2020, 02:02 AM
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Rather a lot of chutzpah making that comment while pimping your Twitter feed in your sig.
I’m kinda hungry but since I’m a Biden supporter, I don’t live in mommy’s basement and thus have to be responsible for my own dinner.
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  #214  
Old 03-04-2020, 02:03 AM
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1. He's not Trump.
2. He will follow the rule of law.
3. He will follow the Constitution.
4. He will nominate moderate judges (and not nominate wacko right wing ideologue judges)
5. He will protect and expand Obamacare - flawed though it may be is much better than what existed before and expanded coverage.
6. He will allow asylum seekers and immigrants to go through the normal process.
7. He won't put immigrants in cages.
8. He will put competent people in positions of power
9. He will try to increase taxes for the rich and keep taxation moderate for everyone else
10. He will protect the LGBTQ community.
11. Probably a lot of other shit.

I'd rather have 10-15 issues that are achieveable than 3 "signatures" that don't have shit chance of passing.
First of all, in terms of electioneering, it’s waaay better to have a couple of big signature issues than 10-15 little moderate ones. The big signature issues are what excite and galvanise people. They’re what get people to volunteer and canvass for you. You think anyone’s going to be inspired to canvass by the promise of more moderate judges? No.

Second, there’s nothing in that list that Bernie’s not also promising. The only exception is point 5, on which Bernie is promising to do more. So it doesn’t really do anything to differentiate between the two candidates.

Finally, Biden seems to be basing much of his campaign on point 1. That’s why he keeps harking back to the Obama era. Bernie’s focussed on the issues. Biden’s focussed on reminding everyone that he’s not Trump. As both Hillary Clinton and John Kerry will tell you, running on a platform of “I’m not the other guy” is a really bad strategy.
  #215  
Old 03-04-2020, 02:18 AM
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Biden? Sanders?

Giant meteor, I'm ready for you now.
  #216  
Old 03-04-2020, 02:22 AM
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Kerry very nearly beat Dubya despite his being over 50 percent in approval. When a president is significantly UNDER 50 percent, as Trump is, being "not the incumbent", but otherwise generic and inoffensive, is exactly the right position to be in.

In other news, Jill Biden is impressively fierce--but where is the Bidens' security detail?

https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status...72864472027136
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  #217  
Old 03-04-2020, 02:49 AM
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Biden: ‘Poor Kids’ Are Just as Bright as ‘White Kids’

Putin might as well lay off his trolls. Biden is doing their work for them. And better.

ETA: In case anyone hasn't noticed. Trump is now the youngest candidate.

Last edited by Projammer; 03-04-2020 at 02:52 AM.
  #218  
Old 03-04-2020, 03:33 AM
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This is relatively old news - and as far as (Joe's) gaffes go, relatively mild when you look beneath the surface of your gut reaction and realize what he was trying to get across...
  #219  
Old 03-04-2020, 03:39 AM
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Oh well, I guess it’s time to recycle hair-sniffing, Strom Thurmond, etc. Have at it...
  #220  
Old 03-04-2020, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
I’m sorry, but this strikes me as being just more of the same paternalistic liberal out of touch fear mongering we got with Obama and Buttigieg. “Of course, I’d vote for a black man. But what about them? The shoeless rubes in tornado alley...sorry, ‘Real America’ aren’t evolved enough to do that. Best play it safe and go with Hillary”. “Of course, I’d vote for a gay candidate. But if you think a gay POTUS and his First Gentleman will play in Peoria then you’ve got another think coming, bucko! Best play it safe and nominate Biden. ‘Real America’ isn’t ready for anyone else”. “Of course, I’d vote for a Democratic Socialist, but....etc”

Middle-class liberals, I implore you. Stop trying to guess what ‘Real America’ wants. You’re objectively terrible at it. You always get it wrong.

This is the problem with Democrats. About half of them are regular people who just want a candidate who’ll work for them. The other half are effete liberals, untouched by economic anxiety, who think they’re way smarter than they are, and who pick their candidates based on what they think the rest of the country will accept. But they look down their noses at the rest of the country so they always get it wrong.

Your post is a prime example. You genuinely seem to believe that half your countrymen are basically Pavlovian dogs who’ll piss themselves every time they hear the word ‘Socialism’. They won’t try to understand what Bernie’s selling, even though many of them need it, because they’re just too stupid. They’ll hear the word ‘Socialism’ and just shut down like 60 million broken computers. They're so hypnotised by those four magic syllables that all the arguments for M4A, student debt relief, and Wall Street reform - all of which enjoy broad bipartisan support - will simply bounce off them. There are no words for how condescending that is.

Tell you what, re-read your post and replace every incidence of the word ‘Socialism’ with the words ‘WASHINGTON INSIDER’. Then you’ll have a more-or-less accurate summary of what actually happened in 2016. And now, thanks in large part to the attitudes of people like you, the Democrats are poised to nominate not just another Washington Insider, but a Washington Insider who is clearly losing his damn mind on live TV. Did you see his victory speech last night? He got his wife confused with his sister, and then promised an actual cure for cancer. It was pitiful. Trump’s going to flatten him.

Sorry for the rant, but it’s so plain to me that Democrats haven’t learn the lessons of 2016 and I’m truly worried that you’ve just bought the world another four years of Trump.
::Standing ovation!::
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  #221  
Old 03-04-2020, 04:43 AM
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I realize that Biden is a moderate and that he may SEEM like a "safe bet" to someone like you who's a centrist. And I don't consider the word "centrist" to be an insult, unlike so many other people. But I look at Biden and all I can see, and hear, is a man whose faculties are in decline.
I do consider 'centrist' to be, well, at least more of an insult than 'moderate'. 'Centrist' implies a naivete about a nonexistent concord between the two sides that, if it ever existed, has been impossible since 2008. Biden cannot work with someone who doesn't want to work with him. I think that would be his biggest flaw as a President (as opposed to a candidate): like Obama, he will shift what he is asking for to the right, and will still be refused, and will get a ludicrous charge of 'why won't he even negotiate with us?' in the bargain.

These days, we need someone who will recognize this situation for what it is and fight for achievable progress. We don't need a 'centrist', we need a 'radical moderate'. The time for cooperation with the swamp creatures is over, but the solution doesn't have to be huge wealth taxes and elimination of private insurance, although that would of course be preferable to the elimination of democracy.
  #222  
Old 03-04-2020, 05:22 AM
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Maine @ 12:22 EST is 33.9 Biden, 32.9 Sanders, 91% reporting.

Shit that's close.

I voted in CA around 10 hours ago. We'll have our result in July.
  #223  
Old 03-04-2020, 06:24 AM
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Bernie’s supporters are energetic, highly motivated
Just not quite energetic and motivated enough to schlep their butts to the polls yesterday.
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  #224  
Old 03-04-2020, 06:39 AM
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I don't give a fuck what you CALL his position. I believe it's the morally correct position. And I think it'd be possible to sell it to America with the right marketing, just like any other goddamn thing on God's earth.

I started out as a libertarian. Sanders successfully sold me on his ideas. I say "his ideas" because they're more than "SOCIALISM." The rapacious healthcare and insurance industries need to be smacked down. That's more important to me than anything else, and he's the only one who's going to get it done.
But YOU. ARE. NOT. THE. PERSON. WE. MUST. CONVINCE. TO. NOT. VOTE. FOR. TRUMP.

I am not that person either.

I live in a small Wisconsin city. So, as it happens, there are twenty people living on my block (of seventy people total) who ARE that person.

That’s unusual. Not many Dopers live close to such a high proportion of the ONLY. VOTERS. THAT. MATTER. when you or I choose between Bernie and Joe during our primary or caucus.

I don’t care what YOU want. I don’t care what I want. I only care what THEY want. Because, if Trump is re-elected, I won’t know what to say to my child, and the world will be measurably worse for millions of people deep into the future.

(I agree with you that Biden’s declining faculties scare me, both in how he would perform as a candidate, and as president. But it’s what we’re stuck with now).

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-04-2020 at 06:42 AM.
  #225  
Old 03-04-2020, 06:49 AM
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UnreconstructedMan, I agreed with your earlier list of how Biden is weak and flawed.

But your more recent post is just wrong. The “socialist” label really does matter to the twenty people in MY neighborhood (not in yours — correct me if you DO live in a particular swath of Wisconsin, Michigan, or Pennsylvania) who are the ONLY. VOTERS. THAT. MATTER.

Only five of those seventy will vote for someone labeled a “socialist,” but forty of them will vote for Biden.

That’s the ONLY statistic that matters. MY neighbors, and the neighbors of a few other Dopers.

Get over yourselves, people!

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-04-2020 at 06:53 AM.
  #226  
Old 03-04-2020, 06:56 AM
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Wrong thread

Last edited by Ruken; 03-04-2020 at 06:56 AM.
  #227  
Old 03-04-2020, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
1. He's not Trump.
2. He will follow the rule of law.
3. He will follow the Constitution.
4. He will nominate moderate judges (and not nominate wacko right wing ideologue judges)
5. He will protect and expand Obamacare - flawed though it may be is much better than what existed before and expanded coverage.
6. He will allow asylum seekers and immigrants to go through the normal process.
7. He won't put immigrants in cages.
8. He will put competent people in positions of power
9. He will try to increase taxes for the rich and keep taxation moderate for everyone else
10. He will protect the LGBTQ community.
11. Probably a lot of other shit.

I'd rather have 10-15 issues that are achieveable than 3 "signatures" that don't have shit chance of passing.
You forgot "he will prioritize maintaining an arcane Senate tradition over passing badly needed legislation."

Of course, the same is true of Bernie.

Giant meteor, take me now.
  #228  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:00 AM
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Correction: My second post should read “seventy votes in my neighborhood,” not twenty. I’m thinking a three-block area. I can give you names, if you don’t believe me, of who: 1. Voted for Trump, 2. Will vote for Biden, 3. Will not vote for a Socialist like Bernie, and 4. REALLY WILL VOTE.

I’m not saying I’m special because of any reason other than where I happen to live at this time. I happen to have neighbors whose votes matter, and most of you do not. It sucks. I hate this system as much as anyone. But these are the FACTS.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 03-04-2020 at 07:01 AM.
  #229  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:22 AM
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Just not quite energetic and motivated enough to schlep their butts to the polls yesterday.
As I had posited before, yesterday would be a test of one of the main pillars of the Sanders theory of electability, that he excites unlikely voters to show up. If they did Sanders would have won Texas by a huge margin, and had overall a very good night. Instead it seems turnout was up, but in the demographics that do not lean Sanders' way, both by race/ethnicity and age, same as in the other primaries to date. That pillar of Sanders' electability is pretty much falsified.


Bloomberg appears to be flirting near the edge of viability in California. If he ends up below that could make some positive news for Team Sanders. Of course we may wait a while before we know.

Last edited by DSeid; 03-04-2020 at 07:22 AM.
  #230  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:32 AM
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POLITICO put it even more starkly, saying Biden “made a mockery of [Bernie’s] main argument for his campaign”.
  #231  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:33 AM
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That pillar of Sanders' electability is pretty much falsified.
This is the main result for me. I was fully willing to listen to the argument that the party had passed my centrist positions by, and that the new wave of voters would carry Bernie to victory both in the primary and in November. But they didn't show up. The old-school voters did.

Does Biden's age, some of his past gaffes, and the high possibility of him making new ones scare me? Of course it does. I think if he wins the nomination he goes into the general election at least as a 40/60 underdog.

But I think yesterday should have made it clear that in states that are likely in play (WI, MI, PA, NC, possibly FL) Biden has a stronger chance at beating Trump than Sanders because there is a very large group of voters (like the ones that JKellyMap talks about) that really want to vote out Trump, and will drag themselves to polling stations to do it, but that will not vote for Bernie Sanders.
  #232  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:36 AM
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I’m sorry, but this strikes me as being just more of the same paternalistic liberal out of touch fear mongering we got with Obama and Buttigieg. “Of course, I’d vote for a black man. But what about them? The shoeless rubes in tornado alley...sorry, ‘Real America’ aren’t evolved enough to do that. Best play it safe and go with Hillary”. “Of course, I’d vote for a gay candidate. But if you think a gay POTUS and his First Gentleman will play in Peoria then you’ve got another think coming, bucko! Best play it safe and nominate Biden. ‘Real America’ isn’t ready for anyone else”. “Of course, I’d vote for a Democratic Socialist, but....etc”

Middle-class liberals, I implore you. Stop trying to guess what ‘Real America’ wants. You’re objectively terrible at it. You always get it wrong.

This is the problem with Democrats. About half of them are regular people who just want a candidate who’ll work for them. The other half are effete liberals, untouched by economic anxiety, who think they’re way smarter than they are, and who pick their candidates based on what they think the rest of the country will accept. But they look down their noses at the rest of the country so they always get it wrong.

Your post is a prime example. You genuinely seem to believe that half your countrymen are basically Pavlovian dogs who’ll piss themselves every time they hear the word ‘Socialism’. They won’t try to understand what Bernie’s selling, even though many of them need it, because they’re just too stupid. They’ll hear the word ‘Socialism’ and just shut down like 60 million broken computers. They're so hypnotised by those four magic syllables that all the arguments for M4A, student debt relief, and Wall Street reform - all of which enjoy broad bipartisan support - will simply bounce off them. There are no words for how condescending that is.

Tell you what, re-read your post and replace every incidence of the word ‘Socialism’ with the words ‘WASHINGTON INSIDER’. Then you’ll have a more-or-less accurate summary of what actually happened in 2016. And now, thanks in large part to the attitudes of people like you, the Democrats are poised to nominate not just another Washington Insider, but a Washington Insider who is clearly losing his damn mind on live TV. Did you see his victory speech last night? He got his wife confused with his sister, and then promised an actual cure for cancer. It was pitiful. Trump’s going to flatten him.

Sorry for the rant, but it’s so plain to me that Democrats haven’t learn the lessons of 2016 and I’m truly worried that you’ve just bought the world another four years of Trump.
This is just Democratic bed wetting. OMG, if we don't pick a genuine revolutionary candidate, Trump will win again.

If anybody needs to have learned a lesson here it's the revolutionaries who turned their noses up at HRC and stayed home because the smart lady in the pant suit was too establishment for them. That's how we got Trump. Also, numbers indicate that the "revolutionaries" talk a big game but stay home more than the more moderates. So maybe they need to actually vote more than they whine.

Keep in mind that about half of the electorate that votes (63M at last count) did not have a socialist boogieman to fear and they still voted for Trump. Perhaps (we can hope) some of them have a bad taste in their mouth 4 years later. Perhaps they will consider voting for a traditional moderate Democrat like Biden who doesn't scare the bejeezus out of them. Perhaps they will just stay home. But they are less likely to do that if they think OMGSOCIALISTSARECOMING!
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  #233  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:43 AM
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Did it turn out that the Democratic Party is like what Churchill thought of the United States in general? Always does the right thing after exhausting every other possible alternative?

Last edited by SlackerInc; 03-04-2020 at 07:44 AM.
  #234  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:43 AM
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An interesting sidelight:

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  #235  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:46 AM
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So maybe some of the previous plunge was not just coronavirus but fears of Bernie.
  #236  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:48 AM
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I've been following politics since the 1960s and this has been the most remarkable 3 days that I can ever remember. Everybody was ready to embalm Biden and put him in the ground. Now I dare say he is the prohibitive leader and odds on favorite for the nomination. All without spending much money and winning three states with a total of one field office between them. A lot of it was Clyburn's endorsement, a lot of it was the well timed exits of Klobuchar and Buttigieg. But I think most of it was the Democratic electorate suddenly coming to the realization that they were in serious danger of nominating a self-described socialist. We may agree with a lot of what Sanders wants to do, but I'll be damned if I want to saddle every downballot Democrat with a socialist at the head of the ticket.

I don't care if Biden makes verbal missteps. I do care that he comes across as an authentic caring person. I like some of what Sanders proposes, but he comes across as an angry old coot who can't work with anyone. Last night he seemed bitter and frustrated. Time for him to pack it in. He will not be president this time, he will never be president.

One bit of schadenfreude: Cenk Uygur won't make the cut in his run for a House seat. If you ever watch The Young Turks, they're become unwatchable shills for Sanders. Nice to see them cry in their beers today.
  #237  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:49 AM
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Unreconstructed Man is not American. His thoughts on how Americans think, what they want, or what they need are a mix of idle speculation and wild assed guess.
  #238  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:51 AM
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Just not quite energetic and motivated enough to schlep their butts to the polls yesterday.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...16/4947795002/

Young voters didn't show up which really bites into Sanders electability argument.
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  #239  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:54 AM
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So maybe some of the previous plunge was not just coronavirus but fears of Bernie.
If you mean "fears of Bernie becoming President", the timing doesn't fit that theory -- Bernie was perceived as the frontrunner well before last week's Trump Slump, which was clearly triggered by Schuck l'Orange's headless-chicken response to the news that coronavirus was definitely going pandemic. If you mean "fears of Bernie getting the nomination and going down in flames", that might be true.
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Last edited by Steve MB; 03-04-2020 at 07:57 AM.
  #240  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:59 AM
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At least Bloomberg didn't win very many delegates, which is nice. Shows you can't just walk in and buy the election.

Hopefully Bloomberg drops out and throws his wealth behind Biden now.
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  #241  
Old 03-04-2020, 08:15 AM
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I don't care if Biden makes verbal missteps. I do care that he comes across as an authentic caring person. I like some of what Sanders proposes, but he comes across as an angry old coot who can't work with anyone. Last night he seemed bitter and frustrated. Time for him to pack it in. He will not be president this time, he will never be president.
Way back when Biden announced his intention to run, I said, "Biden may not be the president we want, but he's the president we need". I then counted him out multiple times and thought that Mayor Pete was the best candidate in the field. An while I am in support of virtually every Sanders platform policy, I am realistic about what can be actually achieved and by whom. Warren, IMO, had a far better chance of accomplishing that which Sanders cannot. But she too is about to pass the torch, to Biden, I hope.

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One bit of schadenfreude: Cenk Uygur won't make the cut in his run for a House seat. If you ever watch The Young Turks, they're become unwatchable shills for Sanders. Nice to see them cry in their beers today.
Good. Fuck that overgrown frat boy.
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  #242  
Old 03-04-2020, 08:20 AM
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Roy Moore didn't make it out of the Republican primary for Senate in Alabama.
He was very disappointed by his single-digit percentage of the vote -- he'd really hoped he'd be able to get into the teens.
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  #243  
Old 03-04-2020, 08:35 AM
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He was very disappointed by his single-digit percentage of the vote -- he'd really hoped he'd be able to get into the teens.
But no more than 14, 15% tops.
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:39 AM
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He was very disappointed by his single-digit percentage of the vote -- he'd really hoped he'd be able to get into the teens.
*golf clap*
  #245  
Old 03-04-2020, 08:39 AM
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He was very disappointed by his single-digit percentage of the vote -- he'd really hoped he'd be able to get into the teens.
Ha! Good one!
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  #246  
Old 03-04-2020, 08:40 AM
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But YOU. ARE. NOT. THE. PERSON. WE. MUST. CONVINCE. TO. NOT. VOTE. FOR. TRUMP.

I am not that person either.

I live in a small Wisconsin city. So, as it happens, there are twenty people living on my block (of seventy people total) who ARE that person.

That’s unusual. Not many Dopers live close to such a high proportion of the ONLY. VOTERS. THAT. MATTER. when you or I choose between Bernie and Joe during our primary or caucus.

I don’t care what YOU want. I don’t care what I want. I only care what THEY want. Because, if Trump is re-elected, I won’t know what to say to my child, and the world will be measurably worse for millions of people deep into the future.

(I agree with you that Biden’s declining faculties scare me, both in how he would perform as a candidate, and as president. But it’s what we’re stuck with now).
I understand what you're saying, but winning over swing voters is not the only path to victory. Getting black turnout, latino turnout, single mother turnout, youth turnout, etc. up will also allow the democrats to win the northern midwest states. However, how to do that, I don't know.

My worry is Biden will be a terrible campaigner. Maybe he needs to stay off the stage and just let Bloomberg spend a billion dollars buying mailers for him.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 03-04-2020 at 08:40 AM.
  #247  
Old 03-04-2020, 09:05 AM
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In other news, Jill Biden is impressively fierce--but where is the Bidens' security detail?
What security detail?

VPs receive Secret Service protection for 6 months after leaving office. It can be extended if there is a specific reason. There wasn't and it wasn't. Major presidential candidates do receive protection 120 days before the general election unless the turn it down. We are not there yet.

Protection can be extended to presidential candidates before that. Biden would seem to fit the usual factors considered. Campaigns have to request protection though. Some request it. Some don't, for a reason. Having a heavily armed, highly trained, professional paranoid with a wire growing out of their ear hovering nearby can make retail level politics difficult.

Biden does not currently have a government provided security detail.
  #248  
Old 03-04-2020, 09:18 AM
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Just heard on MSNBC that Bloomberg is ending his run and endorsing Biden.
  #249  
Old 03-04-2020, 09:44 AM
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Don't give me that crap about Biden's verbal gaffes and incoherence making a damned bit of difference after W and Trump. It sure as hell didn['t hurt either of them and we can go back to second term Reagan for that matter who was already suffering from alzheimers. You can make bold statements but current history doesn't jive with your position.
It makes less difference now. But the fact Biden has lost more than a step mentally at the best makes it harder to press that issue against Trump. At worst he could show up a lot less on the ball *than Trump* later in the campaign or debates as he tires.

Among the things Trump has in his favor, and people who want to defeat him should not ignore his strengths, is that he just doesn't GAS on the same level a lot of politicians do. Besides his vanity wrt 'people who say nasty things about me', that is. He's basically happy and relaxed watching lots of TV in the WH. And he loves riffing in front of the big crowds he draws everywhere he chooses to go (places where he wouldn't draw them...he wouldn't go). The campaign is not very tiring and stressful for Trump IMO, just as the idea the responsibilities of the WH would make him melt down turned out a misguided notion. For Biden OTOH the campaign is obviously hard work for an already tired old man. And that could show up even more starkly later in the campaign.

That said I believe Trump would rather run against Sanders than Biden. Although he's not necessarily right. Anyway there's no law saying anyone has to support any candidate just based on uncertain (they almost always are) assessments of his or her electability.
  #250  
Old 03-04-2020, 09:52 AM
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He was very disappointed by his single-digit percentage of the vote -- he'd really hoped he'd be able to get into the teens.
Thread winner!
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