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  #51  
Old 03-02-2020, 03:35 PM
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Joe didn't unite Amy and Pete. Amy and Pete were (I'm sure) offered tons of incentives to drop out. Maybe the democrats said they'd prioritize pet projects they have, or that they'd help them with future campaigns, or that they'd get very cushy high ranking private sector jobs.

They didn't fall to their knees and realize uncle Joe would save America.

Also Biden is dangerously naive which is a serious problem. He thinks republicans will work together with democrats in good faith to solve Americas problems. Thats like the leader of the NAACP thinking he can work with the KKK to work towards civil rights in the 1940s. Its pretty pathetic. I 'wish' the GOP would work with democrats to solve problems, but the GOP is a party that is beholden to their reactionary, neofascist white nationalist base.

He can't unite America. The GOP will hate whoever is put up and half the democratic party will vote for him but they'll do it assuming he will be incompetent and gullible as president. That isn't even adding in the fact that Biden will probably win fewer votes and delegates in the primary, but the DNC will give him the nomination anyway.
I'm pretty sure what you're responding to there was a joke.

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 03-02-2020 at 03:36 PM.
  #52  
Old 03-02-2020, 03:45 PM
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You guys are acting like Biden has this thing won now.
  #53  
Old 03-02-2020, 03:46 PM
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Isn’t the outcome the same if all of Bloomberg’s delegates switch to Biden at the convention, and this is made clear to the public at the moment Bloomberg drops out of the race?
Probably not. Biden would likely to be able to turn Bloomberg's votes into more delegates than Bloomberg could.

This is because there is a minimum threshold of 15% of the vote to get any delegates. It applies to both congressional districts and state level delegates so things can be complicated.

Bloomberg is hovering near that threshold nationwide. Where he manages to break threshold he will have delegates. Where he doesn't those votes are counted but irrelevant. They might as well have been dropped in a shredder for all that they affect the convention. Bloomberg is likely to turn a good chunk of his votes into nothing unless the race dramatically changes.

The rules are only nominally proportional. The popular vote is only slightly more relevant to the Democratic nomination than it is to the general election.
  #54  
Old 03-02-2020, 03:58 PM
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Which surprises then me that you'd put Bernie as your number 2. Bernie can probably win the popular vote against Trump, but I really don't see how he wins the electoral vote (places like Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin are going to have a harder time voting for Bernie than they would Biden).

The industrial midwest is often the first place to feel economic turmoil when it hits. I don't see people there voting in the general election for the guy basically campaigning on turning the economy upside down. Guys like Biden and Bloomberg? Sure, they're the stable choice. And I think after four years of this current roller coaster, people (in those places where the electoral college is in the balance) may just be seeking out stability.
I’ve already voted in the primary - I did early voting out of necessity, I’m out of state this week, and I stuck with Bloomberg. I would’ve still voted for him anyway, though.

I’ll make up my mind about the general as things get closer. But it’s not so much that I am optimistic about Sanders, it’s that I’m an endless black hole of pessimism when it comes to Biden.

Besides, he isn’t handling the Ukraine stuff well. Now that he’s ahead again, it’s in the news that Ukraine is investigating the Bidens.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...057_story.html

What happened is some corrupt ass managed to force an investigation and it’s all over the conservative media - they’re acting like he'll be arrested any second now. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they managed to get Joe or Hunter or both them indicted in Ukraine.

Democrats keep acting like this is normal election where no cheating is allowed. But the Republicans are going to openly and publicly cheat and they’re going to get away with it and win.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 03-02-2020 at 03:59 PM.
  #55  
Old 03-02-2020, 04:08 PM
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You guys are acting like Biden has this thing won now.
You doubt the power of the Klob bump? *clutches a stapler binder*

Last edited by orcenio; 03-02-2020 at 04:12 PM.
  #56  
Old 03-02-2020, 04:08 PM
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Amy was my favorite in this race, and she just showed why --- she puts the country ahead of herself. Good on Pete, too, although I've never liked him.

I know Bernie won't get out any time soon, and that's why I don't like him. Sure, he has a right to run, just like Nader did in 2000, but too much is at stake this year for him to indulge his vanity. And that's what he's doing --- he knows there's not a chance in hell that his programs will get through a Republican Senate, and a Republican Senate is what we will still have if Bernie is the Dem candidate, even if he wins.
  #57  
Old 03-02-2020, 04:27 PM
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dup

Last edited by TonySinclair; 03-02-2020 at 04:31 PM.
  #58  
Old 03-02-2020, 04:30 PM
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I would vote for Caligua's horse if it were running against the Orange Menace, but I cannot choose between Biden and Sanders. The only criterion is electibility. Neither is going to get anything done is Moscow Mitch controls the senate. He will come up with a new doctrine of no appointments can be approved in the first year of a presidency. Then the second, then third, then fourth. Then they can campaign that the president has done nothing.

Of course a court has now ruled, in effect, that congress cannot oversee the administration. As soon as this is confirmed by SCOTUS by 5-4, the president will not be controllable.
  #59  
Old 03-02-2020, 05:35 PM
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And winning the popular vote does mean something. It's a reflection of the actual will of the actual people. A president who wins by the Electoral College alone ought to govern in some recognition of that fact. Something that trump has manifestly failed to do.
  #60  
Old 03-02-2020, 05:43 PM
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Good points, DinoR.
  #61  
Old 03-02-2020, 06:11 PM
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I don't buy that Bernie would do better in the general election than Biden. The other Democrats pretty much handled Bernie with kid gloves to date. The Republicans have a warehouse full of oppo research on Bernie and the money to saturate television and social media with it.

If you're a Democratic Senate candidate in a purple or red state, who would you rather have at the head of your ticket- Bernie or Biden? Personally, I'd prefer not to have to continually defend the head of my ticket being a democratic socialist. Who would be more likely to have a Democratic Senate behind him- Bernie or Biden? If Bernie is nominated, not only would we see him lose and have Turtleman get his 9 right wing Supreme Court justices, we lose democracy itself. And if by some miracle Bernie did win, NONE of his proposals have a ghost of a chance of coming to fruition. All we'd get would be his wish list that the Grim Reaper in the Senate would gladly let languish and die. Jesus, this is serious shit. We HAVE to nominate and elect Biden to have any chance of getting sanity back in government.
With all due respect, the flaw in this reasoning is that it's predicated on who usually votes in elections. I think you underestimate just how many people stay home on Election Day because, essentially, they are asked to choose between having your throat slit and being decapitated. Not very inspiring.

I think the reason Bernie is surprising the pundits is that a lot of people who don't usually vote, who view the establishment Dems and the GOP as two sides of the same bad penny, are coming out to support him. And as far as the naysaying about the Senate and Congress, these same people who the mainstream candidates have written off as Why Bother They're Not Showing Up In November might just overturn the apple cart.
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  #62  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:05 PM
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As a Minnesotan, I have now twice used my constituent privilege* on behalf of successful collective efforts to get Minnesota senators to step down (from the office in Al Franken's case, now from the presidential race). Very glad to see her doing the right thing! I was in a near-panic along with other mainstream Democrats a week or two ago, and now I'm feeling much more optimistic.

*You can only send senators emails if you are located within their state's boundaries.
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  #63  
Old 03-02-2020, 08:49 PM
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....who view the establishment Dems and the GOP as two sides of the same bad penny....
[GeneWilderinBlazingSaddles] In other words, morons.[/GWiBZ]
  #64  
Old 03-02-2020, 10:18 PM
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... I think the reason Bernie is surprising the pundits is that a lot of people who don't usually vote, who view the establishment Dems and the GOP as two sides of the same bad penny, are coming out to support him. ...
Are they?

So far in fact they have not. They support him but they so far have not been coming out in big numbers. His wins have been in low turnout events and mostly those who usually don't vote have been ... not voting.

Tomorrow is the real test of the premise. He can blow Biden away if those who don't usually vote come out for him tomorrow, if actually excites those voters to make the time to get off their asses en masses. If he fails to blow Biden away, especially in both California and Texas, then it's because those who don't usually vote, who view the establishment Dems and the GOP as two sides of the same bad penny, are NOT coming out to support him.

Stay tuned!
  #65  
Old 03-02-2020, 11:23 PM
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What DSeid said. It’s win-win: if he really does bring out this giant group of nonvoters, he will get the nomination and he will be in good position to bring them out again against Trump. My bet is that he doesn’t bring them out and he won’t win the nomination, and that will be a good thing because we will need someone like Kiden who can appeal to swing voters instead.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 03-02-2020 at 11:23 PM.
  #66  
Old 03-03-2020, 06:16 AM
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I think there is also a significant contingent of people who believe that Bernie will beat Trump. Those folks are more afraid of what Sanders would do than they are of what Trump is doing.
Beating Trump is about more than the white house.

It affects state races and that will affect redistricting.
  #67  
Old 03-03-2020, 06:40 AM
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...Kiden....
Is this Biden with Klobuchar as running mate?

That actually might work pretty well...
  #68  
Old 03-03-2020, 09:17 AM
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Oh my God. Klobuchar told the same story about the dude at President Roosevelt's funeral who said "I didn't know President Roosevelt, but he knew me", in her speech endorsing Biden - the same speech she's told, like, 16 times already at these debates. I've always said it: Klobuchar never had anything to offer but platitudes, soundbites, and trite "middle America" cliches.

She should NOT be Biden's VP. Not a chance. Biden himself is a risky choice for nominee, and his VP needs to be extremely strategic.
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Old 03-03-2020, 01:36 PM
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The constant retelling of the same stories is annoying for political junkies but reaches marginal voters who don’t see nearly as much coverage as we do.
  #70  
Old 03-03-2020, 01:58 PM
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I don't really see a guy who managed to lose a battle of wits with George W Bush doing much to turn back what Republicans have done. (And losing a battle of wits with Dubya is in his own description of events). I fail to see how anyone gets excited over Biden, even 20 years ago he didn't have the smarts to go toe to toe with Republicans, and he's obviously slipped since then. Establishment Democrats seem to be pushing hard to continue the hard-right slide, just at a slightly slower rate, not to do anything to reverse it.

Last edited by Pantastic; 03-03-2020 at 01:58 PM.
  #71  
Old 03-03-2020, 02:06 PM
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I haven't noticed anyone on this message board expressing excitement over Biden so there's not much chance of illumination for you here.
  #72  
Old 03-03-2020, 02:11 PM
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I haven't noticed anyone on this message board expressing excitement over Biden so there's not much chance of illumination for you here.
I am excited about Biden. I want to beat the Orangeanus and I think Joe is the only one who can.
  #73  
Old 03-03-2020, 02:29 PM
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I haven't noticed anyone on this message board expressing excitement over Biden so there's not much chance of illumination for you here.
There's lots of people on this board voting for and endorsing him over Warren or Sanders, which I am willing to call 'excitement'. People are arguing that he is the best choice or that we're all obligated to either vote for him or be considered Trump supporters, which should generally require some level of 'excitement' to do.

The fact that Biden supporters here apparently won't even call themselves 'excited' about him is, if true, a pretty damning criticism, one stronger than I was trying to make.

Last edited by Pantastic; 03-03-2020 at 02:30 PM.
  #74  
Old 03-03-2020, 02:33 PM
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[GeneWilderinBlazingSaddles] In other words, morons.[/GWiBZ]
It's moronic to treat them as the same. It's not to treat them both as being allied with moneyed interests. There very much is an excluded part of the electorate, one which Trump, despite his failings, was able to con into thinking cared about them. The establishment just doesn't seem to want to focus on making things better for the people.

It's not impossible for people to get excited around a moderate candidate. We did for Obama, after all. But it can only happen if the candidate really pushes the idea that he is the people's candidate, and he's going to help.

And I really do worry that excitement is more important here. I keep pointing out that, during my lifetime, I've never seen the less exciting candidate win.
  #75  
Old 03-03-2020, 02:50 PM
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I am excited about Biden. I want to beat the Orangeanus and I think Joe is the only one who can.
Would you be excited for Biden if he weren't running against an incumbent Trump?
  #76  
Old 03-03-2020, 02:53 PM
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The irony of that is Carter is a superdelegate.
[Archer]God dammit.[/Archer]
  #77  
Old 03-03-2020, 02:56 PM
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Is this Biden with Klobuchar as running mate?

That actually might work pretty well...
I agree and hope so.
  #78  
Old 03-03-2020, 03:16 PM
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Would you be excited for Biden if he weren't running against an incumbent Trump?
Yes, I would excited about Biden regardless of his opposition. He may not be the most progressive candidate, but he would still be left of any Republican. Furthermore, because the US shows a reluctance to accept a highly progressive leftist agenda, I believe that Joe stands a better chance of being an effective leader who can get legislation passed.
  #79  
Old 03-03-2020, 03:36 PM
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I believe that Joe stands a better chance of being an effective leader who can get legislation passed.
That is exciting. I'm going to have trouble getting to sleep tonight.
  #80  
Old 03-03-2020, 04:10 PM
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You’re being snarky, but that actually is what we should be rooting for IMO.


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I am excited about Biden. I want to beat the Orangeanus and I think Joe is the only one who can.

+1

Furthermore, I watched him speak in Dallas last night and his speech actually got me alternately choked up and fired up! I would not have predicted that a few months or even weeks ago.
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Old 03-03-2020, 04:20 PM
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Come on. If you're excited you're going to say "I think he'll be a great president!" not "Joe stands a better chance of being an effective leader".
  #82  
Old 03-03-2020, 04:59 PM
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Come on. If you're excited you're going to say "I think he'll be a great president!" not "Joe stands a better chance of being an effective leader".
I know you're Canadian, so you don't have these kinds of problems, but down here, many of us are legit excited at the prospect of someone "being an effective leader."
  #83  
Old 03-03-2020, 05:35 PM
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Yes, I would excited about Biden regardless of his opposition. He may not be the most progressive candidate, but he would still be left of any Republican. Furthermore, because the US shows a reluctance to accept a highly progressive leftist agenda, I believe that Joe stands a better chance of being an effective leader who can get legislation passed.
When you're calling taxes not even as 'leftist' as those we had in the 1950s and programs Nixon (not exactly a pinko) was working on a 'highly progressive leftist agenda', it's pretty clear that the constant stream of 'just to the left of Republicans candidates' that Democrats have been feeding us for decades has caused huge harm to our political system as a whole.
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Old 03-03-2020, 05:38 PM
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I know you're Canadian, so you don't have these kinds of problems, but down here, many of us are legit excited at the prospect of someone "being an effective leader."
An effective leader who got fooled by George W Bush, who's probably the second-least intelligent president we've managed to have. Seriously, how can you call yourself an effective leader if you take a deal like 'Hey Joe, if you stop supporting the bill that puts limits on me and support the one that doesn't, I'll pinkie swear to still follow the limits forever and ever, honest!'? And even worse, are surprised that the other guy doesn't follow the limits that he bargained with you to remove?

Biden according to his own story was a pretty ineffective leader 20 years ago, and its clear that his brain is even less sharp now.
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Old 03-03-2020, 07:58 PM
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An effective leader who got fooled by George W Bush, who's probably the second-least intelligent president we've managed to have. Seriously, how can you call yourself an effective leader if you take a deal like 'Hey Joe, if you stop supporting the bill that puts limits on me and support the one that doesn't, I'll pinkie swear to still follow the limits forever and ever, honest!'? And even worse, are surprised that the other guy doesn't follow the limits that he bargained with you to remove?

Biden according to his own story was a pretty ineffective leader 20 years ago, and its clear that his brain is even less sharp now.
Cool story bro. I've heard this already.

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 03-03-2020 at 08:00 PM.
  #86  
Old 03-03-2020, 08:58 PM
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Thank you, Amy! It looks like Minnesota is going Biden.
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  #87  
Old 03-04-2020, 09:48 AM
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Also Biden is dangerously naive which is a serious problem. He thinks republicans will work together with democrats in good faith to solve Americas problems. Thats like the leader of the NAACP thinking he can work with the KKK to work towards civil rights in Mississippi in the 1940s. Its pretty pathetic. I 'wish' the GOP would work with democrats to solve problems, but the GOP is a party that is beholden to their reactionary, neofascist white nationalist base.
Personally, I think I'll listen to the viewpoint of the guy who was in the Senate and/or VP for 44 out of the last 48 years over some random internet guy who thinks that being on the bench for four years negates all that.

Biden is uniquely positioned to actually know and understand the process, players and idiosyncracies of the White House and Congress.
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Old 03-04-2020, 07:58 PM
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I know you're Canadian, so you don't have these kinds of problems, but down here, many of us are legit excited at the prospect of someone "being an effective leader."

Right?


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An effective leader who got fooled by George W Bush, who's probably the second-least intelligent president we've managed to have.

Let's be real. He wasn't fooled by Dubya, and neither was Hillary or any of the others who voted for that resolution. But he can't say "If we had had a Democratic president, we wouldn't have gone into that war, but since a Republican was in the Oval Office and determined to go to war, we couldn't oppose him in the aftermath of 9/11 without risking being McGoverned into poiltical oblivion". That's the real truth, and holier-than-thou purists won't like it, but I think it's a perfectly legitimate vote and a good reason to elect Democratic presidents so we don't get put in those awkward positions.
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  #89  
Old 03-04-2020, 08:29 PM
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Let's be real. He wasn't fooled by Dubya, and neither was Hillary or any of the others who voted for that resolution.
So you're saying that his story of having the wool pulled over his eyes was fake, and that the people who have repeated it to me on these boards to justify his vote are just repeating a lie? That's a pretty awful accusation. And it's convenient how sometimes to support Biden, we're supposed to believe one story from him, and at other times we're supposed to ignore what he says and 'know' the true story.

Again, according to what Joe Biden says about himself, he was dumb enough to lose a battle of wits to George Bush when his mind was twenty years sharper.

Quote:
But he can't say "If we had had a Democratic president, we wouldn't have gone into that war, but since a Republican was in the Oval Office and determined to go to war, we couldn't oppose him in the aftermath of 9/11 without risking being McGoverned into poiltical oblivion".
Why can't he say that? People keep saying it for him sometimes (and other times repeating the 'Bush lied' track), so why is it impossible for him to utter the words? And if that's the case, how are people supposed to determine which of his words to believe and which to ignore?

Quote:
That's the real truth, and holier-than-thou purists won't like it, but I think it's a perfectly legitimate vote and a good reason to elect Democratic presidents so we don't get put in those awkward positions.
I don't think "I voted for the worst foreign policy decision the US has made since Vietnam and the death of half a million people because I wanted to hold on to power, and me keeping my office is clearly more important than half a million brown people" is exactly a good qualification. If his excuse for the vote is just a lie (though people on this board have argued otherwise) and the real reason is what you said, then he's someone willing to commit mass murder to win an election, and it's imperative to not vote for him, not just foolish.
  #90  
Old 03-05-2020, 10:44 PM
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I hear she might not stick around the Senate too long now: https://politics.theonion.com/vindic...d-i-1842125399
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