Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 03-06-2020, 03:09 AM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 13,227
It's not going to happen. Those outstanding California votes are the last ones mailed, more likely to be favorable to Biden. And in all future contests Bernie isn't going to benefit from mail-in votes that were sent before Biden's surge.

Even if Biden keels over dead, some other establishment candidate will take his place in the race and combine forces with Biden's delegates at the convention. His fans will squawk and gripe about it, but if a solid majority of Democratic primary voters have made it clear they don't want to nominate Bernie, it's ridiculous to say he gets to be the nominee just because of a fluke death.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I agree that Sanders and his movement are trying to hijack the party. They want to be the only ones steering the ship but they want everybody else to stay on board and paddle.

I love this metaphor!
__________________
SlackerInc on Twitter: http://twitter.com/slackerinc

Last edited by SlackerInc; 03-06-2020 at 03:10 AM.
  #52  
Old 03-06-2020, 03:24 AM
Manwich is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I love this metaphor!
The problem is the popularity of Sanders' policies compared to Biden's. Sanders is steering the boat towards actually popular policy that will materially benefit regular Americans.

We get that the party hates that, they are scurrying like cockroaches in the light to stop him doing what they pretended to want.
  #53  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:30 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
If Bernie wins in Ohio and Michigan, and if he can do that convincingly, that would be a strong message. It would be particularly strong given that these are winnable states for Democrats against Trump. If either of these two candidates wants to make a statement on their electability, this week is going to be almost as important as Super Tuesday.

The truth is, Bernie's win and California and Biden's win in Texas are not all that important because we already know which way both states are going to lean in November. They're both symbolic in that they are large prizes, and they are diverse states, but as great as Super Tuesday was for Biden, it wasn't a clinching victory, IMO. But if Biden can flip the script and beat Bernie in both Ohio and Michigan, then Bernie should start talking about how to support Biden and Biden should be talking about how to convince Bernie's delegates to support them going forward.
  #54  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:31 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
The problem is the popularity of Sanders' policies compared to Biden's. Sanders is steering the boat towards actually popular policy that will materially benefit regular Americans.

We get that the party hates that, they are scurrying like cockroaches in the light to stop him doing what they pretended to want.
If Sanders' policies were popular, more people would vote for them. Problem is, they're not.
  #55  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:36 AM
Great Antibob is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,617
Yeah, the "we know what you actually want, we don't need to listen to you" argument is...a thing, I guess.
  #56  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:20 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
The problem is the popularity of Sanders' policies compared to Biden's. Sanders is steering the boat towards actually popular policy that will materially benefit regular Americans.

We get that the party hates that, they are scurrying like cockroaches in the light to stop him doing what they pretended to want.
"The party" didn't hand Sanders his ass on super Tuesday.

It's Sanders and supporters that insist that everyone listen to what "the people" want. And when "the people" have their say, and they don't like it, it's "the party" that's to blame.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #57  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:53 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 23,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
The problem is the popularity of Sanders' policies compared to Biden's. Sanders is steering the boat towards actually popular policy that will materially benefit regular Americans.

We get that the party hates that, they are scurrying like cockroaches in the light to stop him doing what they pretended to want.
I am fairly confident that you actually believe that, that Sanders' proposed policy ideas are much more popular than what Biden supports. But really you have to get out and listen to real people outside your Facebook friend group self-affirmation group more. It simply is not true and has not been.

Building on and expanding the ACA is more popular than revolutionarily blowing up the system and replacing it completely, for example. This is true for all Democrats and even more true for those Democrats who actually bother to vote. Polling showed this throughout the season but progressive activists and several who were running, turned a blind eye to it, instead mistaking the loudest voices for the most voices.

To some degree yes that is "what the party wants" because "the people", those Democrats who vote in the primaries are "the party".


I'm not yet willing to sign the death certificate for Sander's campaign. I was pretty sure Biden was done after New Hampshire and he obviously warn't! Before the season I had thought Harris would be a real contender, relatively early into the race was expecting this to be a Warren Biden finale, and I was thinking Bloomberg would have some chops. I don't have complete confidence that what seems very likely at one moment is not going to be different next week. So some possible path? I'll leave open the possibility.

Given that, Team Sanders fighting hard to live past 3/10 makes sense, including giving their going hard on negative campaigning against Biden, even if it includes some misrepresentations of his record ... this is a nasty sport.

But if he fails to show that he can get up off the canvas on 3/10? Especially if he loses Michigan? He's done. Toast. Forked. Yes, The Bernie Sanders prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable bird, id'nit, squire? Lovely plumage! But at that point he's not pining for the fjords, he wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through 'im! 'E's bleedin' demised!

If at that point he does not realize it and comport himself accordingly then those who care most about the good of this world and this country need to make it clear. Warren then needs to endorse the nominee-apparent, Obama needs to start the general election marketing help, and if Sanders continues to go negative hard at that point he needs to be mocked by all mercilessly, to become a historical joke when thought of at all.
  #58  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:11 AM
Tamerlane is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 14,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
But if Biden can flip the script and beat Bernie in both Ohio and Michigan,
It wouldn't be Biden flipping the script - he polls ahead of Bernie in both states. Sanders is the one with an uphill slog ahead of him.

For what little it may be worth, 538 has dropped Sanders' chance of outright victory all the way down to 3%( with 10% of nobody getting a majority ).

Last edited by Tamerlane; 03-06-2020 at 11:12 AM.
  #59  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:25 AM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 85,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by foolsguinea View Post
I think at this point it's just a matter of Bernie volunteers working phones & hammering home that "credit card Joe' isn't really a strong candidate. Which he isn't.

Joe Biden is a right-wing kind of corrupt candidate:
war on drugs, war on crime, war on Iraq
He'd move your job overseas & not let you write off your debt.
Called children of single mothers "superpredators."
Indifferent to or unaware of the urgency climate change.

There's already a party for that kind of thing; he's not in it; and they have the White House now.
Bernie is the candidate of the Democratic voter. Biden is the candidate of people who don't care who wins this fall.

That's it. It may not work, but that's the pitch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
Agreed.

With Bernie and Biden neck and neck now and Biden having a very vulnerable history and present, Bernie has a great opportunity.

Rich voters with some morals hopefully hate Bidens homophobia, millions of drug imprisonments, pro war record etc.

Poorer voters should hate his anti social security policies, free trade free reign attitude and refusal to support Medicare for all.

Low information voters have his apparent senility.

Bernie has grass roots support and small money donors. Those small money donors have to count for solid word of mouth support. Something corporate support can't do.

Bloomberg's massive waste of money has demonstrated the limits of oligarchy.

It's one type of purity politics versus another now. Pure establishment, corporate backed interests, or the interests of regular Americans.

Bernie has a good chance.
This kind of "If I can't win, I'll make you lose" strategy will only benefit Trump.

If Sanders can regain the lead by selling himself and his ideas as the better choice, then more power to him. He deserves to win if he can do it on that basis.

But if all his followers do is try to knock Biden down then they deserve all the scorn that will be placed upon them.
  #60  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:44 AM
That Don Guy's Avatar
That Don Guy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
"The party" didn't hand Sanders his ass on super Tuesday.
Most of the strong Sanders supporters I see on Facebook already have their laundry lists of how "the party screwed Bernie" out - for example, "The party intentionally understaffed polling places with few booths for Democratic voters in states/locations where Sanders is strongest so his voters would get tired of waiting, or see the long lines, and decide not to vote."
  #61  
Old 03-06-2020, 12:02 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I have to disagree with this. Sanders on his worst day is not Trump. Sanders is the leader of a movement. The only cause Trump cares about is what's best for Donald Trump. As far as Trump's concerned, the Republican Party can go out of business they day he leaves office.

<snip>
Just to clarify, I never, ever said he was like Trump. I said he employed Trumpian tactics. That's what turned me off of him for good and all in 2016.
  #62  
Old 03-06-2020, 12:14 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by That Don Guy View Post
Most of the strong Sanders supporters I see on Facebook already have their laundry lists of how "the party screwed Bernie" out - for example, "The party intentionally understaffed polling places with few booths for Democratic voters in states/locations where Sanders is strongest so his voters would get tired of waiting, or see the long lines, and decide not to vote."
I detest Facebook so I don't partake. But are you fucking serious? Are actual Sanders supporters literally saying this? Not Russian Trolls and Brad Parscale?
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #63  
Old 03-06-2020, 12:44 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
I detest Facebook so I don't partake. But are you fucking serious? Are actual Sanders supporters literally saying this? Not Russian Trolls and Brad Parscale?
Wouldn't surprise me given the grievances his supporters have made on these threads already.
  #64  
Old 03-06-2020, 12:46 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamerlane View Post
For what little it may be worth, 538 has dropped Sanders' chance of outright victory all the way down to 3%( with 10% of nobody getting a majority ).
I guess the Democratic party now controls Fivethirtyeight, eh?
  #65  
Old 03-06-2020, 01:13 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 19,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
I detest Facebook so I don't partake. But are you fucking serious? Are actual Sanders supporters literally saying this? Not Russian Trolls and Brad Parscale?
Yes, they literally blame the DNC for closing Texas voting booths.
  #66  
Old 03-06-2020, 01:21 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Yes, they literally blame the DNC for closing Texas voting booths.
Didn't take long for a fellow doper and, I assume Bernie supporter, to help spread disinformation.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #67  
Old 03-06-2020, 02:53 PM
Manwich is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 465
Men, your support will help us win.

Popular Sanders policies:
Not kill American people with no money for doctors:
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...ll-health-care
Not kill everyone with global warming and not let working class people die from no jobs:
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-cont...926.pdf#page=3

His policies are popular, just vote for him and spread the word.
  #68  
Old 03-06-2020, 02:55 PM
Manwich is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
You linked your own post.
  #69  
Old 03-06-2020, 03:08 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
You linked your own post.


...which quoted the post in question.
  #70  
Old 03-06-2020, 03:28 PM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 23,647
Manwich, fighting for your preferred candidate is right now clearly a very fine thing to do.

Just as a hypothetical exercise however, at what point would you conclude that it was time to start circling the wagons? Would you want the fight to be fought as hard and nasty as necessary up until it was literally mathematically impossible for Sanders to win even if won every remaining pledged delegate? Or even until the delegates actually vote because they are legally allowed to vote their conscience no matter how they are pledged ... maybe en masse they could have a realization that in good conscience they should vote Sanders.

I'm thinking he needs to win decently well in Michigan to turn it around or it's over. I am guessing you think otherwise.

The race is very front loaded this time and by March 27 there is not much left. If he has lost Michigan, Florida, Ohio, and even Arizona (states that are critical general election ones) and also Illinois and Georgia as biggish ones, by then, would you want him to keep selling how bad Biden is and/or whatever narrative might make a case for him? There would still be Pennsylvania and New York as big states.

In such a hypothetical what point would be the time to start shifting to a general election mode, in your opinion?

Thanks
  #71  
Old 03-06-2020, 03:39 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Manwich, fighting for your preferred candidate is right now clearly a very fine thing to do.

Just as a hypothetical exercise however, at what point would you conclude that it was time to start circling the wagons? Would you want the fight to be fought as hard and nasty as necessary up until it was literally mathematically impossible for Sanders to win even if won every remaining pledged delegate? Or even until the delegates actually vote because they are legally allowed to vote their conscience no matter how they are pledged ... maybe en masse they could have a realization that in good conscience they should vote Sanders.

I'm thinking he needs to win decently well in Michigan to turn it around or it's over. I am guessing you think otherwise.

The race is very front loaded this time and by March 27 there is not much left. If he has lost Michigan, Florida, Ohio, and even Arizona (states that are critical general election ones) and also Illinois and Georgia as biggish ones, by then, would you want him to keep selling how bad Biden is and/or whatever narrative might make a case for him? There would still be Pennsylvania and New York as big states.

In such a hypothetical what point would be the time to start shifting to a general election mode, in your opinion?

Thanks
According to one poll, Biden may now be winning by double digits nationally. I'm in agreement: Bernie has to win in Michigan and Ohio to have any chance, which would seem not very likely at this point.

It'll be interesting to see the messaging coming out of Sanders' campaign. They've been arguing that the one with the most delegates should win, but if he gets creamed in Michigan and Ohio, then that would almost guarantee that he'd lose the delegate count.
  #72  
Old 03-06-2020, 05:50 PM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 13,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
The problem is the popularity of Sanders' policies compared to Biden's. Sanders is steering the boat towards actually popular policy that will materially benefit regular Americans.

Just the opposite, but thanks for playing.
__________________
SlackerInc on Twitter: http://twitter.com/slackerinc
  #73  
Old 03-06-2020, 06:05 PM
Manwich is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 465
Why so much negativity in a thread about Bernie's realistic path? Hypotheticals about his losing the nomination are a side issue.

I think his best hope is to get people out to vote, convert centrists and keep building a popular, grass roots movement.

Saying that now I think the answer to the hypothetical is to keep the momentum going and keep demanding that US politics has a voice for the uninsured, the non warmongers and basic majority views as linked above.
  #74  
Old 03-06-2020, 06:47 PM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 23,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
Why so much negativity in a thread about Bernie's realistic path? Hypotheticals about his losing the nomination are a side issue.

I think his best hope is to get people out to vote, convert centrists and keep building a popular, grass roots movement.

Saying that now I think the answer to the hypothetical is to keep the momentum going and keep demanding that US politics has a voice for the uninsured, the non warmongers and basic majority views as linked above.
Obviously I have no choice but to accept your answer/non-answer, but a discussion about his "realistic path" does of course include consideration of what is no longer "realistic" when.

As to negativity ... well depends on what one's desired outcome is, don't it?
  #75  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:04 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 87,431
Why is nobody asking what Biden's path is, when he's only slightly ahead of Sanders?
  #76  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:24 PM
Wesley Clark's Avatar
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Why is nobody asking what Biden's path is, when he's only slightly ahead of Sanders?
Bidens path is mostly a lock.

The remaining delegate rich states are all either southern states or rust belt states.

Let's just hope Biden doesn't do something really stupid between now and November and that if he wins he is surrounded by very intelligent, competent people who can prevent bidens gullibility and declining cognitive abilities from being used to harm the democratic agenda.

I could see Biden offering to cut social security, appoint conservative judges or abandon his agenda just to appear bipartisan. I hope his vp, chief of staff, senate majority leader etc all block this behavior on his part.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 03-06-2020 at 07:28 PM.
  #77  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:27 PM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 13,227
Because he has the polling lead, he has good states ahead of him, and it’s very hard to come back in a two way race with proportional primaries. Which is why 538 now has Bernie down to 2%.
  #78  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:27 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Why is nobody asking what Biden's path is, when he's only slightly ahead of Sanders?
...momentum is a thing.
  #79  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:31 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Bidens path is mostly a lock.

The remaining delegate rich states are all either southern states or rust belt states.

Let's just hope Biden doesn't do something really stupid between now and November and that if he wins he is surrounded by very intelligent, competent people who can prevent bidens gullibility and declining cognitive abilities from being used to harm the democratic agenda.

I could see Biden offering to cut social security, appoint conservative judges or abandon his agenda just to appear bipartisan. I hope his vp, chief of staff, senate majority leader etc all block this behavior on his part.
The democratic agenda is regaining the white house.
  #80  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:41 PM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 13,227
Bernie only won a majority in one state: 50.8% in Vermont (after getting 86% in 2016). His next-best primary result was 36.1% in Colorado. He was able to win New Hampshire with 25% of the vote because the mainstream candidates were dividing the vote. One on one now, with no early voting banked, he doesn’t have a prayer. (It’s awesome!)
  #81  
Old 03-06-2020, 07:42 PM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 13,227
Bernie only won a majority in one state: 50.8% in Vermont (after getting 86% in 2016). His next-best primary result was 36.1% in Colorado. He was able to win New Hampshire with 25% of the vote because the mainstream candidates were dividing the vote. One on one now, with no early voting banked, he doesnít have a prayer. (Itís awesome!)
  #82  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:16 PM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 27,768
Bernie DID win the Michigan primary in 2016, so it isn't inconceivable that he could do so again. He'll probably have a pretty good showing in the Washington primary. Two good performances would certainly slow down the Biden bandwagon.

But it has to be two good performances. And there's another thing to consider. Last time I checked (and California still isn't 100% complete) Biden's leading Bernie in the popular vote by about 900,000 (4.9 million vs. 4.1 million) If Biden keeps a lead in both the popular vote and delegates, it will be difficult to make a case for Bernie.
  #83  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:26 PM
Whack-a-Mole's Avatar
Whack-a-Mole is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 21,325
Sanders' best shot is Biden doing something stupid. Biden is known for it, it can happen (I mean, it can happen to anyone, it is more likely with Biden, he has a history of it). I would guess the people helping him are keenly aware of this and strongly advising him to avoid anything like that. Stick to the script, stick to the script, stick to the script...

That and Sanders has never really hit at Biden's horrible legislative record on a whole slew of issues. Not opinion...stuff Biden has done and never really relented on over a long career. Frankly, he is a republican in all but name. Yet, mysteriously, Biden has gotten a pass on this so far. Probably too late at this point to bring it up and change things but if Sanders wants to have a chance he needs to shine a bright light on Biden's legislative record which has been a disaster.
__________________
"I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think any hon. Gentleman will question it." ~John Stuart Mill

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 03-06-2020 at 08:29 PM.
  #84  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:32 PM
Jophiel's Avatar
Jophiel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Chicago suburbia
Posts: 19,855
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Why is nobody asking what Biden's path is, when he's only slightly ahead of Sanders?
We know his path: Win Michigan and hold Washington to as near a tie as possible then slide into the next batch where he's expected to dominate Florida and probably score wins in the other delegate-rich states.
  #85  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:45 PM
Wesley Clark's Avatar
Wesley Clark is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
The democratic agenda is regaining the white house.
Yeah, fuck appointing 'leftist' judges, health reform, addressing climate change, dealing with income inequality.

Let's just let Biden be scammed, conned and manipulated by that sociopath mitch McConnell for four years, then act confused why democrats didn't bother to show up to vote in 2022 and 2024.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #86  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:04 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Yeah, fuck appointing 'leftist' judges, health reform, addressing climate change, dealing with income inequality.

Let's just let Biden be scammed, conned and manipulated by that sociopath mitch McConnell for four years, then act confused why democrats didn't bother to show up to vote in 2022 and 2024.
Right, because Obama got scammed, conned, and manipulated, and because the Democratic "establishment" is just rolling over and not pushing back against Mitch McConnell.

Here's a clue: the Democratic party won in 2018, and it wasn't just AOC/Bernie "progressives" who won. There were progressives and there were moderates of all stripe who got elected, but they are all commonly disgusted with Trump.

What is Bernie going to do that Joe Biden can't? Shit, Bernie can't even win a fucking nomination. My real point is this: don't blame the candidates, blame the voters who don't support their candidates when they need to be supported.

Bill Clinton supported the Brady Bill in 1994, and how did people support him? By handing him a Republican congress.

Barack Obama finally got health care reform passed in 2009/10 - something that hadn't happened in decades. And how was he rewarded? By young voters skipping the mid-terms and giving him a GOP congress.

How are you going to have a revolution with young voters when young voters show up for Instagram moments during president election campaigns but can't be bothered to do the hard work of democracy?
  #87  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:28 PM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 85,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Sanders' best shot is Biden doing something stupid.
No, it isn't. If Sanders' plan is to hope that the Biden campaign collapses and he wins the nomination by default then he doesn't have a plan. If Sanders wants to be considered a serious nominee, he has to show that he can beat Biden even if Biden is running his best campaign. Sanders needs to demonstrate that he is the best candidate, not merely that he is the last one left standing after everyone else fell down.

Because the nomination doesn't mean shit. The only important thing is beating Trump in the general election. And we want the strongest nominee for that. A nominee who can beat the other guy; not a nominee who has to hope the other guy will make a mistake.
  #88  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:14 PM
dalej42 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 16,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Sanders' best shot is Biden doing something stupid. Biden is known for it, it can happen (I mean, it can happen to anyone, it is more likely with Biden, he has a history of it). I would guess the people helping him are keenly aware of this and strongly advising him to avoid anything like that. Stick to the script, stick to the script, stick to the script...

That and Sanders has never really hit at Biden's horrible legislative record on a whole slew of issues. Not opinion...stuff Biden has done and never really relented on over a long career. Frankly, he is a republican in all but name. Yet, mysteriously, Biden has gotten a pass on this so far. Probably too late at this point to bring it up and change things but if Sanders wants to have a chance he needs to shine a bright light on Biden's legislative record which has been a disaster.
Ah, yes, the same old Bernie Bro nonsense of calling everyone who isnít Bernie a Republican. A million dollar bottle of champagne wonít taste as sweet as the tears of the Bros when Biden kicks Bernieís ass through the rest of the primary season.

Nixon went into a rage when he heard that Biden won his senate race. That was on the same day that Nixon was kicking McGovernís ass on the way to a 49 state landslide.

Oh, Richard Nixon was a Republican.
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42 He/Him/His
  #89  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:38 PM
hajario's Avatar
hajario is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Santa Barbara, California
Posts: 16,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post

Nixon went into a rage when he heard that Biden won his senate race. That was on the same day that Nixon was kicking McGovernís ass on the way to a 49 state landslide.
Why was that?
  #90  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:47 PM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 85,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
I detest Facebook so I don't partake. But are you fucking serious? Are actual Sanders supporters literally saying this? Not Russian Trolls and Brad Parscale?
I have personally been told that support for Biden is a secret conspiracy by conservative boomers. Because Sanders would be a sure thing to win if he gets nominated and we want Trump to win so we're supporting Biden because he is guaranteed to lose.

I'll admit I don't understand how Sanders is guaranteed to beat Trump if he can't get enough votes to beat Biden. But then I'm old and I don't understand the power of youth.
  #91  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:57 PM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 85,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Ah, yes, the same old Bernie Bro nonsense of calling everyone who isnít Bernie a Republican.
As I pointed out a week ago, sixty-three million people voted for a Republican and ninety-one thousand voted for a Socialist in 2016. So a Democrat who's a Republican is a smarter choice than a Democrat who's a Socialist.
  #92  
Old 03-07-2020, 12:28 AM
Kolak of Twilo's Avatar
Kolak of Twilo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Edgewater/Chicago
Posts: 4,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
If Sanders' policies were popular, more people would vote for them. Problem is, they're not.
While I suspect you correct, I feel Sanders' basic unlikability may be playing into this. In 2016 Sanders was new to most on the national scene and most voters wanted someone to take on the powers that be. Now, after 3.5 years of DJT, people are tired of a grumpy, humorless person who yells all the time. If Sanders was an affable, backslapping fella who cracked the occasional joke and smiled once in a while there might be more people willing to consider his policies. But he isn't. He's exhausting.
  #93  
Old 03-07-2020, 02:48 AM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 13,227
He exhausts and grates on me as well, but there are clearly also people who like him personally despite not agreeing with his left-wing socialist leanings. So it’s complicated.
  #94  
Old 03-07-2020, 04:24 AM
Manwich is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 465
I think Sanders' basic likability and eloquence will help but I think now is the time for total destruction of his opponent, Biden.

Sanders should talk facts about Biden's record on Social Security, Iraq, Clarence Thomas (Supreme Court a big deal in your nation).

He's wide open and Sanders has been very polite and tried to work with Democrats, even though the party is riddled with corporate whores.
  #95  
Old 03-07-2020, 04:27 AM
Manwich is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 465
I think Sanders' basic likability and eloquence will help but I think now is the time for total destruction of his opponent, Biden.

Sanders should talk facts about Biden's record on Social Security, Iraq, Clarence Thomas (Supreme Court a big deal in your nation).

He's wide open and Sanders has been very polite and tried to work with Democrats, even though the party is riddled with corporate whores.
  #96  
Old 03-07-2020, 07:17 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 25,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
Men, your support will help us win.

Popular Sanders policies:
Not kill American people with no money for doctors:
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...ll-health-care
Not kill everyone with global warming and not let working class people die from no jobs:
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-cont...926.pdf#page=3

His policies are popular, just vote for him and spread the word.
But not women, of course. Your votes have cooties.
  #97  
Old 03-07-2020, 07:32 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolak of Twilo View Post
While I suspect you correct, I feel Sanders' basic unlikability may be playing into this. In 2016 Sanders was new to most on the national scene and most voters wanted someone to take on the powers that be. Now, after 3.5 years of DJT, people are tired of a grumpy, humorless person who yells all the time. If Sanders was an affable, backslapping fella who cracked the occasional joke and smiled once in a while there might be more people willing to consider his policies. But he isn't. He's exhausting.
I likability, or the lack of it, is overrated. Sanders channels voter anger to his advantage, which is how he has managed to make it this far despite having ideas that are far outside the mainstream. Speaking purely in terms of the campaign, Sanders has built an impressive organization. His voters are by far more committed to him and his cause than any of the other candidates who have entered the race. I think his personality works to his advantage because of the type of campaign he's running. He's running on a platform of radical change, and he resonates with people who are angry and who want the the U.S. to be radically different from what it now is. If he were to trade his authenticity for more personality, he would decline in strength with his base.

Sanders' problem isn't his personality; it's that his campaign, his proposals, his platform - whatever you want to call it - have run into a wall. And that wall is just the simple fact that while most left-leaning and left-center voters strongly agree that Trump needs to go, they quietly disagree with Sanders' vision for how to change this country, and most of them always have. If you're following Twitter or Facebook, this might be a surprise, but it's not a surprise to most people.

And instead of showing some flexibility, Sanders is doubling down even harder, probably because he sincerely believes in what he's doing and that he believes he can persuade more people if he'd just have a wider audience. That's commendable, but there's no evidence at the polls to suggest anything's going to change in voters' minds. I can only hope that his ardent supporters can show some flexibility and accept reality. I'd tell them that all is not lost - there's an opportunity to influence Biden's campaign and his presidency and rather than stay at home out of spite, I hope most will come around and see the opportunities they have.

Last edited by asahi; 03-07-2020 at 07:37 AM.
  #98  
Old 03-07-2020, 09:59 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 23,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manwich View Post
I think Sanders' basic likability and eloquence will help but I think now is the time for total destruction of his opponent, Biden. ...
While I may disagree about Sanders "likability and eloquence" and preferred candidate I do agree with your advice to him. Now is the time for that.

Throw it all at him.

I don't think it will help Sanders much but he should give it his all out swinging hard shot with anything that is not outright falsifications.

If it fails or backfires, is instead perceived as desperation and self-interested, and Michigan goes Biden followed Florida, Arizona, and Ohio ... then the time is over. Wednesday March 18th would then be the time to take the circle the wagon posture.

If it succeeds? Keep the fight going.
  #99  
Old 03-07-2020, 11:20 AM
dalej42 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 16,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajario View Post
Why was that?
Iíd have to reread The Making of the President 1972 for the full details, but the Wikipedia article has some of the details. Nixon couldnít believe he didnít have enough coattails to drag Boggs across the finish line after winning such a dominant landslide for the presidency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_U...re?wprov=sfti1
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42 He/Him/His
  #100  
Old 03-07-2020, 11:55 AM
dalej42 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 16,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajario View Post
Why was that?
Iíd have to reread The Making of the President 1972 for the full details, but the Wikipedia article has some of the details. Nixon couldnít believe he didnít have enough coattails to drag Boggs across the finish line after winning such a dominant landslide for the presidency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_U...re?wprov=sfti1
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42 He/Him/His
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017