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Old 03-08-2020, 09:09 AM
2ManyTacos is online now
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Joe Biden would be an ineffective president who would accomplish very little, if anything.


This is my biggest issue with Biden, & it has nothing to do with him being a squishy "moderate." I fully recognize that his platform, such as it is, would make him the most leftwing president in history if he were to win; he's clearly not as left as Warren and Sanders, but much more left than Obama and HRC.

The thing is, none of his stated agenda will matter because a Biden presidency will not accomplish anything substantial. Responding to the radicalism of Trump requires an equally radical leftwing counterattack, otherwise the GOP will just become ever more insane and in 4 years we'll get a Tom Cotton presidency or some other such craziness. Put another way, right now the highest order issue for Democrats when they regain power should be a scorched-earth push to enact institutional reforms that would militate against the likelihood of another Trump. Even now, leftwing pundits are arguing for such ideas outside of the direct political space - see David Faris's 'It's Time to Fight Dirty' or Dan Pfeifer's 'Untrumping America' for examples. Things like SCOTUS expansion, DC/PR statehood, filibuster abolitionment, mandatory voting, etc. are so critical to that endeavor, yet Biden will be oblivious to them.

To be fair to Biden, though, even Bernie Sanders does not want to eliminate the filibuster, so some reforms are a tall order even under a more leftwing standard bearer. Still, Biden would never, *ever* carry out the sort of scorched-earth, steamroll-the-opposition tactics above because he does not view any of those issues as genuine problems. Instead he is out there making such asinine statements like how the GOP will have an epiphany after Trump is gone and how kumbaya bipartisanship will make a magical return as a result.

So, what will more likely happen in a Biden presidency is some marginal improvements to Ocare - assuming SCOTUS doesn't strike it down in a year based on the cockamamie argument in the TX case - and he will continue to *talk* about his agenda while never getting Congress to actually pass anything. Voters will be disillusioned because nothing will have changed and there will be a Democratic annihilation in the 2022/24 elections.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but that's how I see a Biden presidency panning out.
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:17 AM
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If Trump is deposed, no one in my circle is expecting any “accomplishments,” whether the new president is Biden, Gabbard, or a potted plant. We recognize it might take a couple years to get back to a baseline of decency and normalcy. The obstructions of a Republican House and/or Senate are worrisome, to be sure, and we do have to think about coattails and down-ballot races in November, but first things first. Maybe it’s just as well that the mess clean-up as directed mainly from the Executive branch must occur during a time when the Legislative branch is in a poor position to move forward from the status quo of 2016.
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 2ManyTacos View Post
Voters will be disillusioned because nothing will have changed and there will be a Democratic annihilation in the 2022/24 elections.
Many voters are simply seeking a return to normalcy at this point. A rebuilding of American norms, a guy who doesn't spend his day mean-Tweeting, some restoration of squandered alliances. People who believe in science leading science-based departments and someone who doesn't actively hate public education leading the Dept of Education.

I see disillusionment as a bigger issue with Sanders. Those people will expect free healthcare, free college and the rest of it and there's a zero percent chance of that happening. Think they'll all come out to support Sanders a third time?

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I'd love to be proven wrong
Vote Biden and you'll get your chance!

Last edited by Jophiel; 03-08-2020 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:51 AM
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I assume any Democrat will work to restore some of the programs that matter to the country's wellbeing. You don't just elect a president, but their infrastructure, staff, and party expectations.

Last edited by susan; 03-08-2020 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:14 AM
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Certain things are highly probable to be accomplished.

Court picks high on the list. Hiring competent people to run agencies. Re-entry into the world's climate change programs. Reversal of various executive orders including on the treatment of migrants and immigrants. The rest depends on getting things through the Senate. A simple majority will likely get him enough to reverse much of Trump's tax cuts to the wealthiest, and maybe some shoring up of the ACA, possibly even some expansion of the public option.

An "equally radical leftwing counterattack" would however lose the Senate and maybe even the House ... none of that "scorched-earth push to enact institutional reforms" would have any chance of happening, hell NOTHING would.
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:50 AM
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Certain things are highly probable to be accomplished.

...

An "equally radical leftwing counterattack" would however lose the Senate and maybe even the House ... none of that "scorched-earth push to enact institutional reforms" would have any chance of happening, hell NOTHING would.
I am dubious about that. The GOP stole a SCOTUS seat and were rewarded with total government control a year later. Similarly, they confirmed a credibly accused sexual assaulter to SCOTUS and were rewarded with an expanded Senate majority in the 2018 midterms.
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:00 AM
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Keep in mind that Trump himself is ineffective and doesn't really do anything as a president. It's his ass-lickers who are doing the damage. Trump just makes the context for corruption possible. (His only real effectiveness is in enriching himself and his family by way of power.)

Without that context, ideally much of the damage could be corrected, with Biden, or anyone else
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:13 AM
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I am dubious about that. The GOP stole a SCOTUS seat and were rewarded with total government control a year later. Similarly, they confirmed a credibly accused sexual assaulter to SCOTUS and were rewarded with an expanded Senate majority in the 2018 midterms.
The left-most progressive wing of the Democratic party appears to have been roundly rejected by the majority of lib/prog/dem voters, i.e. Biden vs. Sanders. To continue to insist that a very progressive candidate (like Sanders, for example) would have better luck in advancing progressive policies faced with a mixed Dem/Rep congress and electorate is simply a denial of reality.

It's a bit sad and ironic that the wokest of progressives refuse to accept "no" for an answer.
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:39 AM
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The absolute best case scenario that seems reasonably possible is a Dem President, hold a majority in the House (maybe even grow it a little), and a slim majority in the Senate. Under these conditions it will still be a slog to get a lot of serious legislation passed; I would expect the Republicans in the Senate to do everything they possibly can to obstruct a Democratic President's agenda. Adding to this is that I would expect a Dem President (either Biden or Sanders) to be a one-term President, given their ages.

Given these constraints, the most I am hoping for in a Dem administration is a rebuilding of the norms, institutions, and staffing of the Executive branch. I think all we can reasonably expect is something of a reset. I would expect a replacement for RBG to be installed on the Supreme Court, and maybe one other Justice. I would hope for some rebuilding of trust and good working relations with a number of our allies, particularly in Europe, but I would also expect those governments to be justifiably wary.

If the Senate remains in Republican hands, I expect even less of this. I would not be at all surprised to see Mitch McConnell simply refuse to consider a Supreme Court nominee, even if it happened in the first year of the new President's term ("Well, this will be a one-term Presidency, so we really should wait to see what the voters want for the next President before we consider new Supreme Court nominations."). I would expect many other nominations for administration positions to get dragged through the mud and slow-walked, further hampering the new President's efforts.

Given all of this, my gut tells me that Biden would be a little more effective at this than Sanders. He's got long-term relationships with a number of Senators, and he's got eight years of working inside the White House. I understand the desire for the more progressive agenda Sanders has, I really do, but the odds that he will be in any position to implement that agenda seem extremely low to me. I also think (again, this is intuition) that Biden would prove more of a boon to down-ballot Democratic candidates than Sanders would, slightly increasing the chance of flipping the Senate.

But, who knows? I suspect either one will be relatively ineffectual without help from the Senate; my feeling is that Biden would be able to accomplish more, albeit on a smaller scale, than Sanders within those constraints.
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:48 AM
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The absolute best case scenario that seems reasonably possible is a Dem President, hold a majority in the House (maybe even grow it a little), and a slim majority in the Senate. Under these conditions it will still be a slog to get a lot of serious legislation passed; I would expect the Republicans in the Senate to do everything they possibly can to obstruct a Democratic President's agenda. Adding to this is that I would expect a Dem President (either Biden or Sanders) to be a one-term President, given their ages.

Given these constraints, the most I am hoping for in a Dem administration is a rebuilding of the norms, institutions, and staffing of the Executive branch. I think all we can reasonably expect is something of a reset. I would expect a replacement for RBG to be installed on the Supreme Court, and maybe one other Justice. I would hope for some rebuilding of trust and good working relations with a number of our allies, particularly in Europe, but I would also expect those governments to be justifiably wary.

If the Senate remains in Republican hands, I expect even less of this. I would not be at all surprised to see Mitch McConnell simply refuse to consider a Supreme Court nominee, even if it happened in the first year of the new President's term ("Well, this will be a one-term Presidency, so we really should wait to see what the voters want for the next President before we consider new Supreme Court nominations."). I would expect many other nominations for administration positions to get dragged through the mud and slow-walked, further hampering the new President's efforts.

Given all of this, my gut tells me that Biden would be a little more effective at this than Sanders. He's got long-term relationships with a number of Senators, and he's got eight years of working inside the White House. I understand the desire for the more progressive agenda Sanders has, I really do, but the odds that he will be in any position to implement that agenda seem extremely low to me. I also think (again, this is intuition) that Biden would prove more of a boon to down-ballot Democratic candidates than Sanders would, slightly increasing the chance of flipping the Senate.

But, who knows? I suspect either one will be relatively ineffectual without help from the Senate; my feeling is that Biden would be able to accomplish more, albeit on a smaller scale, than Sanders within those constraints.
Beautifully said. And the extremes on both left and right will flay him for failing to do "enough," same as they did to Obama at the end of his 8 years.

Why is the OP bagging on Biden, particularly? Do you believe there is some magical Dem candidate out there who would be exempt from these same obstacles?
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:27 PM
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How about this for an accomplishment:

1. Biden becomes the nominee.

2. Names Hillary as his running mate.

3. Wins the election.

4. Steps down for "health reasons" (aka dementia.

5. Hillary becomes the first woman president of the United States - thanks to Joe Biden.
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Old 03-08-2020, 01:19 PM
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Judging from social media, Bernie’s supporters seem to think that electing him is all it will take to get Medicare for All or their student loans expunged. I just recently saw him pledge that he would make marijuana legal on day 1.

This is batshit insanity that shows absolutely no appreciation for how our democracy operates.

But Biden is going to be the ineffectual one?
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Old 03-08-2020, 01:28 PM
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For those who are thinking "SCOTUS over POTUS" please keep in mind that Biden is basically the reason we have Thomas on the court. I'm not thinking Biden will be any more help with that than he would be with any other issue. This article is pretty comprehensive regarding the massive problems Biden poses to anyone thinking of voting the guy in--up to and including that "return to normalcy" bullshit.
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Old 03-08-2020, 01:28 PM
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How about this for an accomplishment:

1. Biden becomes the nominee.

2. Names Hillary as his running mate.

3. Wins the election.

4. Steps down for "health reasons" (aka dementia.

5. Hillary becomes the first woman president of the United States - thanks to Joe Biden.
An unfounded rumor like that would ensure Trump's reelection. As much as I respect Hillary, the prospect of her in the White House bothers people. However irrational, we need to just let her quietly fade away.
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Old 03-08-2020, 01:36 PM
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For those who are thinking "SCOTUS over POTUS" please keep in mind that Biden is basically the reason we have Thomas on the court. I'm not thinking Biden will be any more help with that than he would be with any other issue. This article is pretty comprehensive regarding the massive problems Biden poses to anyone thinking of voting the guy in--up to and including that "return to normalcy" bullshit.
I'll take Biden over Trump all day long.

To the extent I disagree with him, I'll get over it. I'm sorry we don't have better choices, but since it's Bernie or Biden left, I firmly believe Biden is the best choice to beat Trump. I doubt he'll be a great president, but he'll be a relatively normal one.

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Biden has proposed raising the retirement age and eliminating cost of living increases, and has said of Medicare and Social Security that “you’ve got to put all of it on the table.”
Makes sense to me.
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:18 PM
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I would not be at all surprised to see Mitch McConnell simply refuse to consider a Supreme Court nominee, even if it happened in the first year of the new President's term ("Well, this will be a one-term Presidency, so we really should wait to see what the voters want for the next President before we consider new Supreme Court nominations."). I would expect many other nominations for administration positions to get dragged through the mud and slow-walked, further hampering the new President's efforts.
This. Getting rid of Mitch McConnell is at least as important as getting rid of Donald Trump. This despicable piece of shit has put party above country, Trump above party, and his personal power above everything.

That said, I don't really expect much from Biden, with or without McConnell.
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:20 PM
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A Bernie supporter told me that one of the ways Bernie would be more "effective" is that as president he would actively help primary disobedient Democrats in congress. Has he actually said that or is it just a theory floating around the Sanders camp?
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:32 PM
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If Biden defeats Trump, he can take a nap for the next four years and still have accomplished a great deal. He will have stopped Trump from making things worse, which is what he will do in a second term.

Beyond that, I feel the most effective thing the next Democratic administration can do is make voting rights a priority. We need to lock in voting rights so the Republicans can't keep stealing elections.

Three basic principles we need to establish:

1. Democracy: the person who gets the most votes wins.
2. People have a right to vote. Any proposal that would disenfrachise any voter must be subject to both a due process standard and a strict scrutiny standard.
3. Buckley v Valeo should be overturned.
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:48 PM
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Do those disdainful of Biden prefer the orange terror?
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:52 PM
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If Trump is deposed, no one in my circle is expecting any “accomplishments,” whether the new president is Biden, Gabbard, or a potted plant. We recognize it might take a couple years to get back to a baseline of decency and normalcy. The obstructions of a Republican House and/or Senate are worrisome, to be sure, and we do have to think about coattails and down-ballot races in November, but first things first. Maybe it’s just as well that the mess clean-up as directed mainly from the Executive branch must occur during a time when the Legislative branch is in a poor position to move forward from the status quo of 2016.
What an incredibly bad plan! We will elect President Placeholder until we can come up with a stronger future candidate and some kind of actual program plans.

This is how you intend to replace an incumbent president with a strong economy and high approval rating? That is what you got?

Losing control of the House of Representatives, no hope of gaining control of the Senate, and four more years of Trump is a more likely outcome.

Out of a large pool of Democratic candidates we now have the most senior, old white guy of the party, who doesn’t even seem to know why he is running.

That is just a great strategy.
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:57 PM
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Do those disdainful of Biden prefer the orange terror?

Some are in a state of anxious confusion, they don't like us, but hate him. So, many confine themselves to contemptuous disdain for the left and relative silence regarding the, ah, "alternative".

If a coalition of the sane center and the progressive left can well and truly clobber the Forces of Darkness, we can begin to rebuild. First up, cleaning the spattering of excrement that occurred when the trajectory of the shit intersected the locus of the fan.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:20 PM
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What an incredibly bad plan! We will elect President Placeholder until we can come up with a stronger future candidate and some kind of actual program plans.

This is how you intend to replace an incumbent president with a strong economy and high approval rating? That is what you got?

Losing control of the House of Representatives, no hope of gaining control of the Senate, and four more years of Trump is a more likely outcome.

Out of a large pool of Democratic candidates we now have the most senior, old white guy of the party, who doesn’t even seem to know why he is running.

That is just a great strategy.
Trump's approval rating isn't that high.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:21 PM
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Do those disdainful of Biden prefer the orange terror?
Those of us who look past optics and personal animus to see actual results consider Biden to be WORSE of the two because his presidency would bring a false sense of "normalcy" to a world situation that is awful and getting worse. Neither Trump nor Biden intend to do a goddamned thing about climate change, they're both absolute ballsuckers to the oil and gas industries and either one of them insures we do NOTHING about climate change or the environment for four more years--in Biden's case, everyone goes back to sleep so it's actually nothing done for MORE than four years. There is no change without discomfort, and Cheeto Jesus certainly brings the discomfort so yes, from an environmentalist point of view especially Trump is preferable.

Now the ACTUAL preference is for neither of these two deranged clowns driving the clown car in favor of an actual competent person but if the American public is too deluded or the DNC/RNC too good at ratfucking the election process then it's gonna be one or the other and yes, I prefer the one who creates the most outrage because that's the one more likely to actually get people off their asses and doing something to effect actual change rather than tastefully rearranging the Titanic's deck chairs.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:25 PM
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Once Trump is out of office the floodgates are going to open as to exactly what Trump was up to while he was in there. So we will see:

His taxes, in full.
That "perfect" phone call. The actual recording of it which was stashed away on a super-secret military server will be released to the public.
His conflicts of interest, particularly regarding his businesses.
His ties to Russian money.
Every investigation that was squashed by Barr's bootlicking DOJ.
And probably much more.

The Republican party is complicit in a lot of this and some of them (Devin Nunes comes to mind) were actively involved in the scandals and the cover-up. When the truth comes out about what the Republicans have been doing alongside Trump, it should destroy that party for a generation at the least. Trump is going to jail. His family is going to jail. His lackeys are going to jail. Anyone who remains is not going to choose the hill of Trumpism to die on.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:34 PM
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Hmmm. The choice is between a moronic treasonous racist crook that doesn't care about anyone but himself, or a decent person that wants to help people.

Let me think about that for a bit.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:38 PM
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Hmmm. The choice is between a moronic treasonous racist crook that doesn't care about anyone but himself, or a decent person that wants to help people.

Let me think about that for a bit.
Yes, this is why progressives want Bernie.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:39 PM
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Once Trump is out of office the floodgates are going to open as to exactly what Trump was up to while he was in there. So we will see:

His taxes, in full.
That "perfect" phone call. The actual recording of it which was stashed away on a super-secret military server will be released to the public.
His conflicts of interest, particularly regarding his businesses.
His ties to Russian money.
Every investigation that was squashed by Barr's bootlicking DOJ.
And probably much more.

The Republican party is complicit in a lot of this and some of them (Devin Nunes comes to mind) were actively involved in the scandals and the cover-up. When the truth comes out about what the Republicans have been doing alongside Trump, it should destroy that party for a generation at the least. Trump is going to jail. His family is going to jail. His lackeys are going to jail. Anyone who remains is not going to choose the hill of Trumpism to die on.
I want every word of this to be true.

It's why I hope Kamala Harris is not selected as Biden's running mate. She'll be wasted as anything but the new Attorney General.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:39 PM
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The Republican party is complicit in a lot of this and some of them (Devin Nunes comes to mind) were actively involved in the scandals and the cover-up. When the truth comes out about what the Republicans have been doing alongside Trump, it should destroy that party for a generation at the least. Trump is going to jail. His family is going to jail. His lackeys are going to jail.
How many pardons do you expect will be handed out?
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:53 PM
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I just recently saw [Bernie] pledge that he would make marijuana legal on day 1.
Surely with his appointments and executive orders, stopping all prosecutions for marijuana IS something Potus could do immediately.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:53 PM
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Hmmm. The choice is between a moronic treasonous racist crook that doesn't care about anyone but himself, or a decent person that wants to help people.

Let me think about that for a bit.
Looking at Biden's record, I really don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion that Biden wants to help anyone who isn't a multimillionaire.

Personally, I'm terrified that Biden as president will try to find reconciliation with Republicans by supporting some sort of "grand bargain" in the form of more austerity or privatizing parts of social security in the name of "bipartisanship."
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:00 PM
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This is my biggest issue with Biden, & it has nothing to do with him being a squishy "moderate." I fully recognize that his platform, such as it is, would make him the most leftwing president in history if he were to win; he's clearly not as left as Warren and Sanders, but much more left than Obama and HRC.

The thing is, none of his stated agenda will matter because a Biden presidency will not accomplish anything substantial. Responding to the radicalism of Trump requires an equally radical leftwing counterattack, otherwise the GOP will just become ever more insane and in 4 years we'll get a Tom Cotton presidency or some other such craziness. Put another way, right now the highest order issue for Democrats when they regain power should be a scorched-earth push to enact institutional reforms that would militate against the likelihood of another Trump. ...
You are assuming the the Dems also win the senate. A pretty large assumption.And also the the dems win the senate with enough votes that a few backsliders wont cross over- a HUGE assumption.

If you assume that the senate will be close to 50/50, Biden can get more done than anyone else. Everyone in the Senate knows him and most own him favors.

What you are proposing is that the Dems and the GOp give up any chance of even compromising, that after those reforms, if the GOP get back in- they do that same and worse. This leads to a bitterly divided nation.

However, this sort of attack on the frontrunner does nothing but help trump win. Is that what you want?
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:01 PM
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Yes, this is why progressives want Bernie.
Putin and Tramp want Bernie because he's an easy target. I wanted Bernie in 2016 but he didn't get enough votes. I want someone now who can win enough votes.

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Looking at Biden's record, I really don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion that Biden wants to help anyone who isn't a multimillionaire.
Do you prefer the current POTUS? Because that's your alternative. SOS.
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:10 PM
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How many pardons do you expect will be handed out?
As many as the number of people who line up for the "Ass Licking" booth that Trump will set up in front of the White House on January 19th if he isn't re-elected.

ETA: Of course, Trump will be the first person to lick his own ass with particular enthusiasm.

Last edited by guizot; 03-08-2020 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:12 PM
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Do those disdainful of Biden prefer the orange terror?
Either that, or they are thinking if they attack Biden enuf, the DNC (which clearly controls the democratic voters- I guess by telepathic commands or something ) will decide to crown Bernie instead.

I have seen this idea several times that the DNC is somehow choosing the candidate.

Anyway here is a article on why Biden will work:


https://bluewavecollective.com/so-bi...D0i_6EsTJ3WDF4



The response to Joe Biden’s win the morning after Super Tuesday was tepid. There was some disappointment across the other candidates’ camps that this was not their first choice, but the troll factories and right-wing agitation machines don’t have the time to coordinate on their attack narratives in this scenario. While they are regrouping, we have some time to adjust perspectives as well, so let us give you all some electability rays of sunshine regarding Joe Biden:



The troll factories are ramping up.

The Bernie Bros are actually threatening to stay home if "The DNC" doesnt pick Sanders.
  #35  
Old 03-08-2020, 04:21 PM
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Looking at Biden's record, I really don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion that Biden wants to help anyone who isn't a multimillionaire.
...
Yeah, I look at his 36 years in the senate and his 8 years as Obamas Veep and see exactly the opposite.

Trump has proved he only wants to help multimillionaires.

Do you want trump reelected?
  #36  
Old 03-08-2020, 04:28 PM
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Do you prefer the current POTUS? Because that's your alternative. SOS.
Honestly, long term I feel just doomed either way.

If Biden wins the White House but doesn't deliver real benefits for the disaffected working-class. The populist uprisings of 2024 will make the uprisings of today look genteel by comparison.

The politics of the last four years have taught us that tens of millions of Americans feel that their institutions have completely failed them. The legitimacy of the whole system is still hanging by a thread. The core truth of a Biden administration would be bring change or reap the whirlwind.
  #37  
Old 03-08-2020, 04:34 PM
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Yeah, I look at his 36 years in the senate and his 8 years as Obamas Veep and see exactly the opposite.

Trump has proved he only wants to help multimillionaires.

Do you want trump reelected?
Like what?
  #38  
Old 03-08-2020, 04:54 PM
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Those of us who look past optics and personal animus to see actual results consider Biden to be WORSE of the two because his presidency would bring a false sense of "normalcy" to a world situation that is awful and getting worse. Neither Trump nor Biden intend to do a goddamned thing about climate change, they're both absolute ballsuckers to the oil and gas industries and either one of them insures we do NOTHING about climate change or the environment for four more years--in Biden's case, everyone goes back to sleep so it's actually nothing done for MORE than four years. There is no change without discomfort, and Cheeto Jesus certainly brings the discomfort so yes, from an environmentalist point of view especially Trump is preferable.
If Biden does nothing else but put back the same protections that existed under the Obama administration, the environment will already be better off than it is under Trump.

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Now the ACTUAL preference is for neither of these two deranged clowns driving the clown car in favor of an actual competent person but if the American public is too deluded or the DNC/RNC too good at ratfucking the election process then it's gonna be one or the other and yes, I prefer the one who creates the most outrage because that's the one more likely to actually get people off their asses and doing something to effect actual change rather than tastefully rearranging the Titanic's deck chairs.
Oh, so you prefer the guy that's going to drill holes into the lifeboats? You prefer that people who don't agree with your views deserve to continue to suffer until they see things your way. You prefer to watch the further undermining of democracy, furtherance of corruption, dismantling of human rights and civil society, because you can't get your way. Smart, Aleq.
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  #39  
Old 03-08-2020, 05:14 PM
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You are assuming the the Dems also win the senate. A pretty large assumption.And also the the dems win the senate with enough votes that a few backsliders wont cross over- a HUGE assumption.

If you assume that the senate will be close to 50/50, Biden can get more done than anyone else. Everyone in the Senate knows him and most own him favors.

What you are proposing is that the Dems and the GOp give up any chance of even compromising, that after those reforms, if the GOP get back in- they do that same and worse. This leads to a bitterly divided nation.

However, this sort of attack on the frontrunner does nothing but help trump win. Is that what you want?
Yeah, well to be clear I am also dubious that a Biden presidency would facilitate a Democratic Senate at all. There's just so much papering over Biden's vulnerabilities as a candidate now, but I feel like having him at the top of the ticket will induce a not-insignificant amount of young people who would otherwise have voted for Sanders to stay home.

And yes, I am arguing that the Democrats need to be ruthlessly efficient in enacting the kinds of reforms I mentioned in the OP. The bottom line is that *not* doing those things will, again, cause nothing of consequence to ever actually pass. Consequently, the only thing Democrats will ever do is *talk* about their wonderful leftwing ideas without ever enacting them, and the party will just forever be annihilated in wave elections by fed up voters.

That is not a sustainable dynamic, and Biden will just perpetuate it.
  #40  
Old 03-08-2020, 05:26 PM
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Yeah, well to be clear I am also dubious that a Biden presidency would facilitate a Democratic Senate at all. There's just so much papering over Biden's vulnerabilities as a candidate now, but I feel like having him at the top of the ticket will induce a not-insignificant amount of young people who would otherwise have voted for Sanders to stay home.
Well, we're just guessing here but don't you think that a not insignificant number of 50+ people won't vote for a socialist?
  #41  
Old 03-08-2020, 05:28 PM
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Yeah, well to be clear I am also dubious that a Biden presidency would facilitate a Democratic Senate at all. There's just so much papering over Biden's vulnerabilities as a candidate now, but I feel like having him at the top of the ticket will induce a not-insignificant amount of young people who would otherwise have voted for Sanders to stay home.
Less young people are voting for Sanders in this primary than they did in the 2016 primary.

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And yes, I am arguing that the Democrats need to be ruthlessly efficient in enacting the kinds of reforms I mentioned in the OP. The bottom line is that *not* doing those things will, again, cause nothing of consequence to ever actually pass. Consequently, the only thing Democrats will ever do is *talk* about their wonderful leftwing ideas without ever enacting them, and the party will just forever be annihilated in wave elections by fed up voters.

That is not a sustainable dynamic, and Biden will just perpetuate it.
Young people will not suddenly vanish from the electorate because Sanders does not win. Young people who hold the progressive ideals should/must continue to hold on to them as they age and vote again in the next elections. But first, you must vote for the next best thing (or least worst thing, if you insist) in this election. Sulking and staying home because you don't get your way in one of the most consequential elections of your young lives is no way to behave as an adult. Learn to accept that you will not always get your way and almost certainly not on your first or second time at the ballot box.

Seriously. Stop this. Enough. If you want to be taken seriously, act like responsible adults that understand what's at stake and be part of the solution.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 03-08-2020 at 05:29 PM.
  #42  
Old 03-08-2020, 05:38 PM
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Seriously. Stop this. Enough. If you want to be taken seriously, act like responsible adults that understand what's at stake and be part of the solution.
When did I ever say that *I,* personally, will not vote for Biden? I would vote for a pet rock before I vote for Trump or stay home. My point with this thread is that Biden will almost certainly be an ineffective and unsuccessful president, and that his failures to address Democrats' structural barriers will ensure future Democratic electoral annihilations.
  #43  
Old 03-08-2020, 05:42 PM
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It isn't so much that I want Bernie, I want America to want Bernie, or what he more or less stands for. Recent evidence is that we do not.

And "we" includes me because of that Pledge. And that includes the part about people who aren't as smart as me have the same right to power.
  #44  
Old 03-08-2020, 05:43 PM
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When did I ever say that *I,* personally, will not vote for Biden? I would vote for a pet rock before I vote for Trump or stay home. My point with this thread is that Biden will almost certainly be an ineffective and unsuccessful president, and that his failures to address Democrats' structural barriers will ensure future Democratic electoral annihilations.
In that case, you are to be commended. There are some who don't share your considered view.
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  #45  
Old 03-08-2020, 05:59 PM
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My question is "What would an effectual president even look like?" The big problems that people hate the establishment for don't really seem to be much within the president's purview. I'm not saying the president has no power, but the things we want the president to do are basically just "undo the cruel and stupid things Trump has done" which basically any Democrat would do. If that's "ineffectual," then what's left?

The radical things that need done are at the congressional level mostly, with some rights-based stuff at the judicial level. Everything you listed is a congressional power, not a presidential one. Neither Biden nor Bernie would be able to get those passed.

Given how even many Democrats attack people like AOC, it seems unlikely that even a Democrat supermajority in both houses would actually get the good stuff done. Democrats by and large sure seem to like the status quo before Trump was elected. And that is what allowed a populist Republican to take power, even if he couldn't actually do anything truly populist from his position.

Note, none of this is saying Trump isn't awful and destructive. He is causing damage. But that's him making bad changes. The president seems to have little power to making substantial good changes beyond the undoing of bad ones.

If that isn't enough--if undoing the destruction isn't enough--then no Democratic president will be enough.

Last edited by BigT; 03-08-2020 at 06:02 PM.
  #46  
Old 03-08-2020, 06:21 PM
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The thing is, a "return to normal" requires a President who's very far outside of the normal. The Republicans have already made big changes to this country, by taking unprecedented actions. Reversing those changes will require unprecedented responses. A President who considers himself bound by precedent will not be able to return to normality.
  #47  
Old 03-08-2020, 06:21 PM
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IMHO, step one to make the USA a better place is to get Trump out. It is the initial solution from which all other solutions flow. Trump is the number one crisis facing America and probably the world. Get him out. Worry about what comes next after he and his grifter kids are gone.
  #48  
Old 03-08-2020, 07:52 PM
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If Biden does nothing else but put back the same protections that existed under the Obama administration, the environment will already be better off than it is under Trump.
There's no reason to assume the corporate oligarchy would bother walking back anything Trump has done, since it serves them just fine as is.



Quote:
Oh, so you prefer the guy that's going to drill holes into the lifeboats? You prefer that people who don't agree with your views deserve to continue to suffer until they see things your way. You prefer to watch the further undermining of democracy, furtherance of corruption, dismantling of human rights and civil society, because you can't get your way. Smart, Aleq.
Not sure who, exactly, you think you're referring to here unless you're actually Chris Matthews IRL and honestly believe that guillotines in Central Park are a thing that progressives intend to implement. You're hysterical and nowhere near the actual reality of Bernie, who actually, no shit, asks people at his rallies to look around them and imagine fighting just as hard to help those they don't know as they would fight to help their friends and family. So far Trump and Biden both only say they want to help the rich to help themselves to whatever crumbs we have left. If that doesn't scare you, but Bernie does, then there's way more going on in your head than psych meds can fix.

You could stop babbling and freaking out for a minute and actually THINK about why it scares you so to think that healthcare, housing and a living wage are human rights that should be guaranteed to every citizen. That our resources and productivity would be better spent mending our broken infrastructure and making our lives better rather than spending it all on endless regime change wars and killing brown people in countries we have no business interfering with. That the billions we spend every year propping up extractive and destructive industries would be better spent ensuring every child has enough to eat and a solid education. That rehabilitation is better than mindless punitive incarceration. That endless debt slavery is a terrible way to expect millions of people to spend their lives. That the right to fair, free elections without interference and ratfucking is something our founding fathers were trying really hard to guarantee to us. That endless surveillance and police state control have no business in a free society.

Seriously, if the very idea of the American people having those things give you the skeery vapors then I don't think you and I are actually a part of the same species.
  #49  
Old 03-08-2020, 09:02 PM
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When did I ever say that *I,* personally, will not vote for Biden? I would vote for a pet rock before I vote for Trump or stay home. My point with this thread is that Biden will almost certainly be an ineffective and unsuccessful president, and that his failures to address Democrats' structural barriers will ensure future Democratic electoral annihilations.
Because your attacks on him here are increasing trumps chance of winning, that's why.
  #50  
Old 03-08-2020, 09:24 PM
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You could stop babbling and freaking out for a minute and actually THINK about why it scares you so to think that healthcare, housing and a living wage are human rights that should be guaranteed to every citizen.
Yeah, if you're wondering why Sanders can't break above 30-35%, this is a good part of it. No one voting Democratic is "scared" of poor people having health care or affordable housing or any of that stuff. People disagree about the route to take and it turns into "Well, I guess you're just a neoliberal Corporate Democrat who hates poor people and wants them all to starve and die!" and that leads right into "Ok, time to tune this weirdo out."

The messaging on this stuff is just awful the moment it touches anyone and fails to instantly convert them.
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