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Old 03-09-2020, 11:51 PM
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March 10: MI, WA, MO, MS, ID, ND


Today is the sixth week of voting in the 2020 primary, and the second week with multiple states voting. We've got:

Michigan: 125 delegates
Washington: 89 delegates
Missouri: 68 delegates
Mississippi: 36 delegates
Idaho: 20 delegates
North Dakota: 14 delegates


I'll be voting in the Michigan primary for Joe Biden, with a smile on my face and joy in my heart. I started last year out praying for a Sherrod Brown candidacy. Found myself having great hopes for Cory Booker, then Steve Bullock, but all along happy that Joe Biden was in the race if all else failed. I was excited over Liz Warren rising in the ranks for the latter part of the year. In the waning days of 2019, I was waffling between Liz and Biden. In early 2020, as Biden slipped, I found myself making eyes with Mike Bloomberg. By early-February, I was a pretty solid Bloomberger. Then by late-February, I was, again, all-eyes on Joe Biden. Immensely glad he was in the race and looking strong. It's been a wild ride.

This past year has been exercise of me studying a voting pool of two: my Uncle G and Cousin D (metro Detroit union guys, both Obama voters, one voted Trump in 2016, one sat out the election, one a retiree, one a young dad, neither especially "high information" voters). I've tried to figure out who they could pull the lever for over Trump in 2020. I had confidence in all of the names I listed above, at one point or another. But they all fizzled or never took off...except Biden. He may not be the perfect guy, but I'm now convinced he's absolutely the right guy for the time.

I've never once this year thought about who I want in the White House (if that was the case, it'd have been Liz Warren all the way); rather, this year's been about who can actually win the industrial Midwest in these current times, by way of my Uncle G and Cousin D. I've gone from Brown, Booker, Bullock, Warren to Bloomberg... but ultimately Biden's the guy that I will pull the lever for with a smile on my face and joy in my heart, because he's the guy Uncle G and Cousin D can vote for in November.

All that shit being said, let's discuss...
  #2  
Old 03-10-2020, 12:12 AM
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Itíll be a good day for Biden. Bernieís best shots are in WA, Seattle is Bernie Bro central. But itís a primary and not a caucus so Bernie Bros canít pull their caucus intimidation shit or block the parking. Iíd guess Bernie has a shot in Idaho, itís very white and very red, so if youíre a Dem there youíre probably very liberal.

Every Bernie Bro has reminded me that Bernie did pull a surprise in MI in 2016. Maybe he will again, but I highly doubt it.

North Dakota? Yeah, who knows there, itís a weird caucus/primary format.

Iíd love to see Bernie not be viable in Mississippi. Nothing screams establishment like African American women in Mississippi, right Bernie? Surely theyíre all in the pockets of big banks and Wall Street.
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Old 03-10-2020, 12:19 AM
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Agreed. I think there are an awful lot of voters out there on both sides of the aisle that think best candidate as "anyone but trump."

Biden, believe it or not, finally has lined up the planets.

I would happily vote for Bernie if he gets the nom, but I think the Bernie Bros (my nephew being one of them) hostage scenario isn't worth much. The few millennials that do vote, and will only vote for Bernie, are outnumbered by the Never Trumpers from both parties. At least, that is my story and I'm sticking with it.
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Old 03-10-2020, 12:48 AM
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Agreed. I think there are an awful lot of voters out there on both sides of the aisle that think best candidate as "anyone but trump."

Biden, believe it or not, finally has lined up the planets.

I would happily vote for Bernie if he gets the nom, but I think the Bernie Bros (my nephew being one of them) hostage scenario isn't worth much. The few millennials that do vote, and will only vote for Bernie, are outnumbered by the Never Trumpers from both parties. At least, that is my story and I'm sticking with it.
Thatís what Iím thinking to, the Bernie hostage takers this time around are loud, theyíre very loud on Twitter, but theyíre concentrated in blue states or else they fall in the most unreliable voter category anyway. And with the coalition that Biden has with most of the other candidates thereís no need to reach an outstretched hand to them, we saw how they bit us in 2016 and reminded us that when you take a snake inside your house, theyíre still a snake and will eventually bite you.
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Old 03-10-2020, 07:10 AM
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My one vote today in Michigan will be to continue the Joementum. Another good day for Biden, another day for Sanders and his supporters to whine about the party establishment putting their thumbs on the scale. Soon enough it will all be over and Bernie will put away the D next to his name for another four years.
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Old 03-10-2020, 08:35 AM
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My one vote today in Michigan will be to continue the Joementum. Another good day for Biden, another day for Sanders and his supporters to whine about the party establishment putting their thumbs on the scale. Soon enough it will all be over and Bernie will put away the D next to his name for another four years.
I supported Warren, but it sure does seem that the establishment has been putting their thumbs on the scale.

A number of my friends support Sanders. They have done so from quite rational positions, though I think they are a bit deluded about his realistic chances in the general. But for the love of little three-legged weasels, can we stop with all of this Bernie Bro bashing? Can't you just disagree with people without claiming their support comes from idiotic one-note youths daring to interfere in a grown-up election? If you don't like someone's tactics, call out the individual or the Russian bot or whatever. But you (general you) are slandering the whole campaign, I think in part because of what happened in 2016.

I don't know. Maybe it's my own bias: I've seen a lot of support for Sanders this go-round, but not a single example of Bernie Bro behaviour, which I did see in 2016.
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Old 03-10-2020, 09:15 AM
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Can't you just disagree with people without claiming their support comes from idiotic one-note youths daring to interfere in a grown-up election?
Or disagree with them without claiming that their support comes from some combination of the "establishment media DNC conspiracy fraud" word salad?
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Old 03-10-2020, 09:26 AM
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I supported Warren, but it sure does seem that the establishment has been putting their thumbs on the scale.

A number of my friends support Sanders. They have done so from quite rational positions, though I think they are a bit deluded about his realistic chances in the general. But for the love of little three-legged weasels, can we stop with all of this Bernie Bro bashing? Can't you just disagree with people without claiming their support comes from idiotic one-note youths daring to interfere in a grown-up election? If you don't like someone's tactics, call out the individual or the Russian bot or whatever. But you (general you) are slandering the whole campaign, I think in part because of what happened in 2016.

I don't know. Maybe it's my own bias: I've seen a lot of support for Sanders this go-round, but not a single example of Bernie Bro behaviour, which I did see in 2016.
Shitbag Sanders himself is hiring trolls at the highest levels of his campaign. Red rose Twitter is full of noxious Bernie Bros. They’ve regularly disrupted other campaign’s rallies as well as booing during their election watch parties.

But, in general this time around, no one is playing games. Shoot the fucking hostage, take your damn ball and go home, I don’t care.
Biden has got an election to win. We’re not going to do the ‘What has Biden done to earn my vote?’ ‘The lesser of two evils is still evil’ or any of that 2016 Bernie bro idiocy.

And screw that establishment has their thumb on the scale bullshit. It’s always a fucking conspiracy when Bernie loses, I’m sure Biden kicking ass and racking up black votes in the south is because they’re all in the pockets of big banks and Wall Street.
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  #9  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:32 AM
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From Bernie himself on ABC's This Week:

Quote:
Well, one of the things that I was kind of not surprised by is the power of establishment to force Amy Klobuchar, who had worked so hard, Pete Buttigieg, who, you know, really worked extremely hard as well, out of the race.

What was very clear from the media narrative and what the establishment wanted was to make sure that people coalesced around Biden and try to defeat me. So thatís not surprising.

We are taking on, George, as I think everybody knows, the establishment. Weíre taking on the corporate establishment. Weíre taking on the political establishment. And what you are seeing now just in the last few weeks is Wall Street, the healthcare industry, the billionaire class putting a lot of money into Joeís campaign.
What a whiny little bitch. I didn't win so the game wasn't fair.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:29 AM
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When the 538 forecasts were unfrozen after Super Tuesday, Biden had a predicted 35 delegate lead in today's contests. Now, with the forecasts frozen again after new polls, Biden is plus 75, not including Dems abroad. I bet Warren endorses Biden if he comes away with +35 delegates or more. I think Obama might endorse with a huge win. Obama endorses for sure when Biden wins big next Tuesday.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:35 AM
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Shitbag Sanders himself is hiring trolls at the highest levels of his campaign. Red rose Twitter is full of noxious Bernie Bros. They’ve regularly disrupted other campaign’s rallies as well as booing during their election watch parties.

But, in general this time around, no one is playing games. Shoot the fucking hostage, take your damn ball and go home, I don’t care.
Biden has got an election to win. We’re not going to do the ‘What has Biden done to earn my vote?’ ‘The lesser of two evils is still evil’ or any of that 2016 Bernie bro idiocy.

And screw that establishment has their thumb on the scale bullshit. It’s always a fucking conspiracy when Bernie loses, I’m sure Biden kicking ass and racking up black votes in the south is because they’re all in the pockets of big banks and Wall Street.
The language used in your posts is absolutely detestable. They are so utterly deplorable, narrow-minded, divisive AND tone-deaf that it often boggles my mind.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 03-10-2020 at 10:36 AM.
  #12  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:35 AM
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When the 538 forecasts were unfrozen after Super Tuesday, Biden had a predicted 35 delegate lead in today's contests. Now, with the forecasts frozen again after new polls, Biden is plus 75, not including Dems abroad. I bet Warren endorses Biden if he comes away with +35 delegates or more. I think Obama might endorse with a huge win. Obama endorses for sure when Biden wins big next Tuesday.
I don't think Obama endorses until Biden has the majority vote mathematically sewn up. He does not want to interfere in the primary process, though clearly he prefers Biden.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:38 AM
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From Bernie himself on ABC's This Week:



What a whiny little bitch. I didn't win so the game wasn't fair.
He sounds more and more like the whiny little bitch at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Yet another reason for me to be disappointed in Bernie.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:51 AM
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The language used in your posts is absolutely detestable. They are so utterly deplorable, narrow-minded, divisive AND tone-deaf that it often boggles my mind.
I thought that was a cogent, right-on-the-money post. We tried to stroke the Bros deluded, childish egos, and thatís not enough for them. So, time to tell Ďem like it is: Go fuck yourselves. (Not you, personally, of course).

Not that we should waste much energy saying even that much, since few of them apparently vote, anyways.

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Old 03-10-2020, 10:53 AM
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I happy dropped my Biden-marked ballot in the mailbox over the weekend. I do predict that Sanders will win here (Washington), but I think it'll be a lot narrower than 2016. Clinton actually won the Washington Primary in 2016, though since the delegates were awarded by the caucus, it might not be a great predictor.

On the whole "Bernie-bro" question, if you haven't seen that behavior in 2020, you're probably staying off things like Twitter and ignoring Chapo Trap House-type nonsense. Good for you! But it's out there, in great force. That said, I'm sure the vast majority of those who cast their ballots for Bernie did so out of an authentic belief that he would be the best candidate to take on Trump, would do the most to make the economy more fair for regular people, or repair the structural imbalances in our system. I just disagree with them, and harbor no hard feelings. I do wish Sanders himself would do more to distance the campaign from the former group, however. He seems to treat them the way Trump treats White Nationalists: publicly, they're at a distance, but under the table, there's some serious footsy going on.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:58 AM
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If last week was Super Tuesday is today Pretty Good Tuesday?
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:03 AM
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I suppose this is the appropriate thread to mention that yesterday I got a friend request on Facebook from a dog, whose entire posting history was one anti-Biden thread after another.
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:11 AM
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That's nothing; you should check out his posts about Romney from around the time of the 2012 campaign.
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:29 AM
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I thought that was a cogent, right-on-the-money post. We tried to stroke the Bros deluded, childish egos, and thatís not enough for them. So, time to tell Ďem like it is: Go fuck yourselves. (Not you, personally, of course).

Not that we should waste much energy saying even that much, since few of them apparently vote, anyways.
How is it not personal, when you tell a Bernie supporter that Bernie supporters should go fuck themselves?
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:35 AM
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How is it not personal, when you tell a Bernie supporter that Bernie supporters should go fuck themselves?
Because I love Bernie, too. I would consider myself a ďBernie supporter.Ē Iím just explaining why the tone of an appropriate response to someone saying they wonít vote for Biden because reasons doesnít always have to be gentle. We try the gentle approach sometimes, and other times we get real.
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:44 AM
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On the whole "Bernie-bro" question, if you haven't seen that behavior in 2020, you're probably staying off things like Twitter and ignoring Chapo Trap House-type nonsense. Good for you! But it's out there, in great force.
I don't go on Twitter or listen (watch?) the Chapo Trap House dirty left nonsense. But I have plenty of people on my Facebook feed or people I know on Discord who are all in on the DNC Establishment Conspiracy angle and the "I can't vote for Biden because it's not a vote for real change, man" thing.

I have to shake my head when people say that all this stuff is from Russian Troll-bots and the like. Russian must have been playing the long game to plant people a decade ago just so they can call me a Poor People Hating Neoliberal Corporate Establishment Democrat for not supporting Sanders ten years later.
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Old 03-10-2020, 12:08 PM
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He sounds more and more like the whiny little bitch at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Yet another reason for me to be disappointed in Bernie.
I didnít want to be the first one to post that but I was thinking the same thing.

Of course, one difference is that Trump still whined about the system being unfair after winning.
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Old 03-10-2020, 12:14 PM
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I have to shake my head when people say that all this stuff is from Russian Troll-bots and the like. Russian must have been playing the long game to plant people a decade ago just so they can call me a Poor People Hating Neoliberal Corporate Establishment Democrat for not supporting Sanders ten years later.
They have been playing the long game, for decades.

The link is to a 47 minute video produced by the New York Times about a Russian project/tactic that's been around for more than 50 years now and has been and still is having a huge effect on world politics (as well as domestic Russian politics; no society is safe from this effort). The project is a perpetual campaign of disinformation designed to disrupt the social fabric and keep it frayed. It is hugely successful and on-going.

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Old 03-10-2020, 12:18 PM
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The link is to a 47 minute video produced by the New York Times about a Russian project/tactic that's been around for more than 50 years now and has been and still is having a huge effect on world politics (as well as domestic Russian politics; no society is safe from this effort).
Sure, but you understand that I was talking about old college friends being supposed Twitter bots, right?

If your point is that my Sanders supporting old college friends were brainwashed into their current state by Russian propaganda, then you might be on to something.

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Old 03-10-2020, 12:26 PM
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Here’s the thing.

There are rules to this game. If you entered this game, you know the rules. Actions that are taken that are in accordance to these rules are fair, by the “rules of the game” definition.

If Joe Biden had surrogates that were powerful and convincing enough to convince several opponents to drop out and endorse him, that’s fair according to the rules of the game. Bernie Sanders was equally free to bring out his strongest surrogates to ask opponents to drop out and endorse him.

If he didn’t have surrogates with that kind of clout, it’s a weakness in his game. Every player has weaknesses. Seasoned politicians risk being labeled “Washington Insiders”. They risk having every vote they’ve cast in their lifetime subjected to after the fact analysis. They are often older and risk having age become an issue. But sometimes they can use the incredible depth of the relationships they’ve developed over the years to advance their campaign. Like Joe did last week.

It’s a different set of strengths and weaknesses than other candidates might have. But every candidate needs to advance their strengths and play down their weaknesses.

I kind of wish that the Bernie camp could’ve succeeded. I would’ve LOVED to see every previously unregistered voter under 40 turn out for him. Heck, I’d love to see a candidate that could turn out EVERYONE that never voted before- it’s an epic recipe for victory.

It was an interesting strategy. But it looks like it didn’t work.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 03-10-2020 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 03-10-2020, 12:32 PM
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Sure, but you understand that I was talking about old college friends being supposed Twitter bots, right?
No; I don't understand that because that isn't what you wrote:
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Russian must have been playing the long game to plant people a decade ago just so they can call me a Poor People Hating Neoliberal Corporate Establishment Democrat for not supporting Sanders ten years later.
They have been. They did. They are. Based on what you wrote, you seemed to be completely unaware of the campaign and in complete denial of it's existence. I was trying to help you out by providing information and corroborative evidence supporting that information.

If you knew of the Russian project, it's unclear to me why you would have written what you did.

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If your point is that my Sanders supporting old college friends were brainwashed into their current state by Russian propaganda, then you might be on to something.
People rarely need to be brainwashed; they just need their biases confirmed. The disinformation campaign does that; it is part of the core of the program's strategy and effectiveness.

ETA: As this is a hijack from the purpose of the thread, I'll stop posting about this here. It was just me trying to be helpful by providing information that you might not have known.

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Old 03-10-2020, 12:44 PM
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I thought that was a cogent, right-on-the-money post.
100% agree. I mean he used some swear words, but the post was completely correct IMO.

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No; I don't understand that because that isn't what you wrote
You completely ignored and didn't quote the first part of his post. It feels intellectually dishonest on your part.
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Old 03-10-2020, 12:50 PM
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The language used in your posts is absolutely detestable. They are so utterly deplorable, narrow-minded, divisive AND tone-deaf that it often boggles my mind.
The sustained and abusive nature of his anti-Bernie/left-progressive vitriol is so cartoonishly over-the-top it becomes a spectacle in itself.

The interesting part is that its always pre-justified by citing a lack of 'decency' by unnamed twitter foes.
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Old 03-10-2020, 01:05 PM
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No; I don't understand that because that isn't what you wrote:
Just prior to that, I wrote: But I have plenty of people on my Facebook feed or people I know on Discord who are all in on the DNC Establishment Conspiracy angle and the "I can't vote for Biden because it's not a vote for real change, man" thing. I have to shake my head when people say that all this stuff is from Russian Troll-bots and the like.

I thought the context was obvious but apparently it wasn't since you were confused. My apologies.

Last edited by Jophiel; 03-10-2020 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 03-10-2020, 02:38 PM
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Just prior to that, I wrote: But I have plenty of people on my Facebook feed or people I know on Discord who are all in on the DNC Establishment Conspiracy angle and the "I can't vote for Biden because it's not a vote for real change, man" thing. I have to shake my head when people say that all this stuff is from Russian Troll-bots and the like.

I thought the context was obvious but apparently it wasn't since you were confused. My apologies.
Apology accepted; thank you.

The thing is, what you wrote suggested that you didn't believe or know of Russia's decades-long program directed at causing disruption to the social fabric, part of which causes you to see posts accusing you of being a <long, complicated derogatory term>.

They do.

The fact that some of the people you see saying those things are people you know IRL doesn't alter the fact that Russia has this campaign.

Can we drop this now and return to the purpose of the thread?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 03-10-2020 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 03-10-2020, 02:44 PM
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Apology accepted; thank you.

The thing is, what you wrote suggested...
No, what I wrote suggested that the people saying these things were real, breathing people who live and vote here in the United States and not anonymous AIs or Russians working in the Twitter mines as often gets claimed by Sanders supporters. It really wasn't that hard.

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  #32  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:45 PM
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I'm willing to admit observer bias: I see a lot of Sanders support, but no Bernie Bros. But then, (1) I'm in Canada so I miss 95% of what happens in the US media, and (2) I don't do Twitter, so I miss all of the pointless ragefests.

What I mean is that I see so much anger on here towards Sanders, and that anger is justified by what kind of supporters he has. I don't see the need for the anger at Sanders (with the exception of the point raised above that there may be some under-the-table encouragement of Bernie Bro-type actions... I would like evidence, as it seems a strategically poor choice, but if so, that SHOULD inspire anger).

As far as the establishment's thumb on the scales, my sole point of evidence is that it seemed incredible for Klobuchar and Buttegieg, and to a lesser extent the Billionaire Boys, to back out between South Carolina and Super Tuesday. If one or two had come following SC, and then the others AFTER Super Tuesday, I wouldn't call behind-the-scenes shenanigans. It may be all "rules of the game," as you say, but it's bad optics. I mean, it's not like anybody thinks DNC actually wants Sanders to win, is it? And they have a sterling example in Trump of what happens to a party when the weirdo outsider gets the nod, so I don't blame them for doing everything they can do prevent it from happening to them. But as a voter, I'd rather they didn't.
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Old 03-10-2020, 02:55 PM
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As far as the establishment's thumb on the scales, my sole point of evidence is that it seemed incredible for Klobuchar and Buttegieg, and to a lesser extent the Billionaire Boys, to back out between South Carolina and Super Tuesday.
Well, Bloomberg dropped out after Super Tuesday (and it would have been far better for Biden if he dropped out prior since he was the only guy besides Biden & Sanders to get appreciable delegates).

But, beyond that, why does it have to be something hinky? If you're running for president and your internal polling is telling you that you have 4% support and might get 3 delegates for the night, What are you staying in for? Pride? Campaigning is expensive and hard. Campaigning for zero chance of success is dumb. Maybe you stay in to "make sure your message is heard" but, if someone else has essentially the same message and is possibly going to win, why wouldn't you throw your support behind them?

It feels like the expectation for "establishment tinkering" is that you need to wait until you're utterly humiliated before you drop out instead of making a rational choice to end it now, get behind the guy who most supports your vision and hope he beats the other guy who has a significantly different vision.
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Old 03-10-2020, 03:00 PM
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Well, Bloomberg dropped out after Super Tuesday
Oops, you're right. My bad for relying on fallible memory.

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
But, beyond that, why does it have to be something hinky? If you're running for president and your internal polling is telling you that you have 4% support and might get 3 delegates for the night, What are you staying in for? Pride? Campaigning is expensive and hard. Campaigning for zero chance of success is dumb.
Yes, but we're talking about 48 more hours, where 98% of the campaigning and spending and much of the voting had already happened. Dropping out at that point just tarnishes your brand with the people who did vote for you. And it wasn't so much that they dropped out, but they dropped out *and endorsed Biden* in that very narrow window.

"Hinky" goes too far (and "conspiracy" way too far). It just appears manipulative. It's not unethical or anything, but it's alienating.
  #35  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:13 PM
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If last week was Super Tuesday is today Pretty Good Tuesday?
I think in the Midwest we call it "Not Bad Tuesday".

I did see someone call it "Big Tuesday", but more delegates are up for grabs on March 17, so maybe today is "Don't Make a Big Fuss Tuesday".

Anyway, I wanted to be able to vote for Warren, but I voted for Biden instead. I'm on the fence between Biden and Sanders, and I'll happily vote for either in November. I'm probably closer to Sanders ideologically, but I think Biden will get more money and more enthusiastic backing from party regulars, so he'll be in a better position to beat Trump. Of course, that's why I voted Clinton in 2016, and look at how well that turned out.
  #36  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:14 PM
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Yes, but we're talking about 48 more hours, where 98% of the campaigning and spending and much of the voting had already happened. Dropping out at that point just tarnishes your brand with the people who did vote for you. And it wasn't so much that they dropped out, but they dropped out *and endorsed Biden* in that very narrow window.
I mean, yeah, I don't doubt that the people who endorsed Biden did so because they want him to win. After they determined that there was zero chance of them winning. It's not as though they don't have pollsters and stuff working for them -- they knew there was no chance after South Carolina that there'd be a path for them. Prior to S. Carolina, they could have hoped for a Sanders win or some Biden fumble or other route to victory.

But that didn't happen. Biden crushed it in South Carolina, came roaring out and a couple of the candidates realized that splitting the vote at that point was going against their vision for the nation and that they had no chance of being the standard bearer.

Don't get me wrong; I absolutely believe that they contacted Camp Biden and said "Hey, I'm going to drop out" and Biden's people said "Can you wait until this day and come to this rally to endorse"? But that's different from the theory floated by some Sanders supporters that they got pushed out and forced to support Biden or that it was some plot to run a campaign for a year and fracture the vote, only to drop out right before Tuesday.

As for their supporters, since Biden likely picked up the vast majority of them (why else complain about the endorsements?) I assume they also would prefer Biden over Sanders.

Last edited by Jophiel; 03-10-2020 at 03:16 PM.
  #37  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:34 PM
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They just cancelled Sanders rally here in Cleveland
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  #38  
Old 03-10-2020, 03:42 PM
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie...onavirus-fears
Yet supposedly the St. Patricks Parade is still on
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  #39  
Old 03-10-2020, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
I'm willing to admit observer bias: I see a lot of Sanders support, but no Bernie Bros. But then, (1) I'm in Canada so I miss 95% of what happens in the US media, and (2) I don't do Twitter, so I miss all of the pointless ragefests.

What I mean is that I see so much anger on here towards Sanders, and that anger is justified by what kind of supporters he has. I don't see the need for the anger at Sanders (with the exception of the point raised above that there may be some under-the-table encouragement of Bernie Bro-type actions... I would like evidence, as it seems a strategically poor choice, but if so, that SHOULD inspire anger).

As far as the establishment's thumb on the scales, my sole point of evidence is that it seemed incredible for Klobuchar and Buttegieg, and to a lesser extent the Billionaire Boys, to back out between South Carolina and Super Tuesday. If one or two had come following SC, and then the others AFTER Super Tuesday, I wouldn't call behind-the-scenes shenanigans. It may be all "rules of the game," as you say, but it's bad optics. I mean, it's not like anybody thinks DNC actually wants Sanders to win, is it? And they have a sterling example in Trump of what happens to a party when the weirdo outsider gets the nod, so I don't blame them for doing everything they can do prevent it from happening to them. But as a voter, I'd rather they didn't.
This primary cycle was just weird and the billionaires definitely fucked it up along with the heavily front loaded primary schedule with CA and TX being on Super Tuesday. Iíll speak to South Carolina. You couldnít go 5 seconds from September on without seeing or hearing a Steyer ad.
With no Steyer in the race, Pete finishes a strong third and probably sticks around. But, a weak 4th in SC and now Pete is looking at 2nd and 3rds at best for Super Tuesday. Steyer, looking down at Bloombergís money machine also realizes heís done as he wonít be making the debate stage again. Itís also no secret that Peteís fundraising was drying up quickly after Nevada. Presidential primary campaigns donít tend to keep a rainy day fund, Peteís got a huge future and realized going forward all he could do was play spoiler on a shoestring budget.

So, itís not always Ďthe establishment rigging things.í Thereís a lot wrong with 2016, the billionaires sucking up all the ad time along with the front loaded primaries are probably the biggest. A Joe Biden, with 100% name recognition and a good reputation among Dems is always in a stronger position than a Pete Buttigieg or an Amy Klobuchar.
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  #40  
Old 03-10-2020, 04:09 PM
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Poll closing times (all times Eastern):

Code:
State		Delegates	Polls Close
Michigan	125		9:00 PM*
Washington	89		11:00 PM
Missouri	68		8:00 PM
Missisippi	36		8:00 PM
Idaho		20		11:00 PM
North Dakota	14		8:00 PM
Dems Abroad	13		N/A
* The majority of Michigan polls close at 8PM ET. Four Upper Peninsula counties are in the Central time zone and close at 9PM ET.
  #41  
Old 03-10-2020, 05:29 PM
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The girlfriend and I just voted. Took the boy, too, and taught him how to turn in his ballot. I'm sure he voted for some off-the-wall candidate.
  #42  
Old 03-10-2020, 05:31 PM
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Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, and North Dakota are all states that derive significant revenue from fracking. Bernie's going to have a rough time getting votes from people he's promising to put out of work.
  #43  
Old 03-10-2020, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
They have been playing the long game, for decades.

The link is to a 47 minute video produced by the New York Times about a Russian project/tactic that's been around for more than 50 years now and has been and still is having a huge effect on world politics (as well as domestic Russian politics; no society is safe from this effort). The project is a perpetual campaign of disinformation designed to disrupt the social fabric and keep it frayed. It is hugely successful and on-going.
The New York Times should know - they've been populated by 'useful idiots' doing Russia's bidding for a long time. For example, Walter Duranty won a Pulitzer Prize for the Times for his reporting denying the Ukraine famine.

And Bernie Sanders was one of the Soviet Union's 'Useful Idiots' in the 1970's, visiting Potempkin Villages and expounding on how great Soviet art, education, and healthcare was. The Worker's Party he was part of was supported by the Soviets and could be counted on to parrot the Soviet line whenever they opened their mouths.

Some of us have been trying to call out Soviet/Russian interference for decades. I guess it took Trump benefiting from it to wake up the left to this.

But the Russians aren't trying to elect Trump - or Sanders. The Russian strategy has always been division and discord. For example, in the 2016 election they funded pro-Trump rallies AND anti-Trump rallies. Supporting Bernie now is probably not about any belief that he'll actually win (just like they didn't think Trump would win), but the stronger that Bernie finishes and the angrier they can make the Bernie Bros, the more discord there will be in the political system. You can bet that if Bernie loses at the convention, the Russians will start a campaign saying that either Trump or Biden orchestrated his loss through shenanigans. And they'll incite the Bernie Bros as much as they can, just as they did Antifa.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 03-10-2020 at 05:55 PM.
  #44  
Old 03-10-2020, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
(with the exception of the point raised above that there may be some under-the-table encouragement of Bernie Bro-type actions... I would like evidence, as it seems a strategically poor choice, but if so, that SHOULD inspire anger).
I was referring to stuff like Sanders being interviewed by Chapo hosts or attempting to play off his supporters' bad behavior as Russian bots:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Sanders
All of us remember 2016, and what we remember is efforts by Russians and others to try to interfere in our election and divide us up. Iím not saying thatís happening, but it would not shock me.
The second half of that same quote is:

Quote:
And if there are a few people who make ugly remarks, who attack trade union leaders, I disown these people. They are not part of our movement.
But by prefixing that with the whole, "hey, it may just be Russian bots! I'm not saying it is, but maybe...", he makes it clear he isn't willing to call out the "dirtbag left." Probably a bad strategic call, since he doesn't really need them and it now seems they've hurt his ability to reach out to other voters, but bad strategic calls is why he keeps losing primaries.
  #45  
Old 03-10-2020, 06:03 PM
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Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, and North Dakota are all states that derive significant revenue from fracking. Bernie's going to have a rough time getting votes from people he's promising to put out of work.
Cite for all those states deriving significant revenue from fracking? I live in Missouri and have rarely heard of fracking being an issue here. According to the cites below, MO is an insignificant player in the fracking industry.

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/2...om-state-state

https://ballotpedia.org/Fracking_in_Missouri

North Dakota maybe, but MS and MI? Gonna need cites for those too.
  #46  
Old 03-10-2020, 06:08 PM
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I was going by the 'Fracking Map' here:

Map: The Fracking Boom. From Inside Climate News. looks like you use the same link to 'refute' me, but the map clearly shows Mississippi as an active fracking state. Looks like I misread another state for Missouri, though.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 03-10-2020 at 06:11 PM.
  #47  
Old 03-10-2020, 06:15 PM
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Other cites you requested:

Fracking in Mississippi

Fracking in Michigan
  #48  
Old 03-10-2020, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
No, what I wrote suggested that the people saying these things were real, breathing people who live and vote here in the United States and not anonymous AIs or Russians working in the Twitter mines as often gets claimed by Sanders supporters. It really wasn't that hard.
Again: I accepted your apology already. You don't have to keep apologizing. I get that you screwed up; it's okay.

Can we drop this hijack now?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 03-10-2020 at 06:15 PM.
  #49  
Old 03-10-2020, 06:20 PM
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Anyone have a catchy name to call today? Obviously Super Tuesday is already taken. I've heard it being casually referred to as Mini Tuesday, but that makes it sound like it's smaller than your normal Tuesday.

I'm kinda partial to Pretty Good Tuesday. Or Bat-Tuesday.

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 03-10-2020 at 06:21 PM.
  #50  
Old 03-10-2020, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post
Anyone have a catchy name to call today? Obviously Super Tuesday is already taken. I've heard it being casually referred to as Mini Tuesday, but that makes it sound like it's smaller than your normal Tuesday.
My girlfriend and I were calling it Okay Tuesday during our suppertime banter.
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