Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-10-2020, 08:29 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882

Can Biden beat Trump?


I know a lot of Bernie supporters that SAY they're choosing to vote for the green party because they don't feel Bernie got a fair shake.

I agree he didn't get a fair shake, but I don't want 4 more years of Trump. I hope this isn't another 2016 scenario. I'm really scared. I really hate how everyone on TV were working against Bernie, and I'm EXTREMELY discouraged. It's as if the Democratic establishment and the Republicans are two sides of the same coin. I almost feel like not voting at all... But more Trump is going to force my hand into voting, just like 2016. I can't take it anymore. It's not that I'm pissed because it's not 'MY GUY' that's running, it's that all these powerful forces made it extremely difficult for 'my guy' that gets to me.

Go ahead and gloat that Bernie probably won't win, that's just going to discourage people more. It's horse crap. How do I talk to the other Bernie supporters, and encourage them to vote Biden? I can't blame them for being mad. I'm mad. I don't want to have anything to do with this crud. The establishment wants me not to have a voice, so why bother?

If this were any other situation... I would say f it, and not vote. I'm saving my protests for another day. Another Supreme Court decision is the only reason I'm involving myself in the process.
  #2  
Old 03-10-2020, 08:54 AM
enipla is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Rockies.
Posts: 15,109
I really, really don't understand your position. Donald J fucking Trump is President, and you may not vote? You think that the 'establishment' is preventing Bernie from getting the nomination?

And what do you mean Bernie didn't get a fair shake? What the hell are you talking about?

One reason that Bernie won't get the nod is it looks like he may not be able to beat Trump. Do you have ANY idea how important it is to remove Trump?
__________________
I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but I can see it from here.
  #3  
Old 03-10-2020, 08:58 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,756
Your feelings are wrong.

Democrats and Republicans are not the opposite sides of the same coin. Bernie Sanders was roundly rejected (pending today's outcome) by the Democratic voters. The establishment - however you define it - did not make people vote for Biden. Hell until SC, Biden was pronounced as being dead as a candidate. If the "establishment" (whoever the fuck that is) were any good at backing Biden, he'd never have been in that position. They hype would have been deafening and any moderate would have been sidelined before they got to the second debate. That did not happen. Because there is no conspiracy against Sanders. None. Stop spreading ridiculous conspiracy theories.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.

Last edited by QuickSilver; 03-10-2020 at 08:59 AM.
  #4  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:00 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882
I didn't say I wasn't going to vote. Did you read my post?? And if the media didn't crap on Bernie and scare us in to thinking only an establishment candidate could win against Trump, I would think would beat Trump big time.
  #5  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:03 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882
Look... I came here to learn what I can say to get people to vote for Biden. Conspiracy my ass. I watched MSNBC this whole election, and they were 'anyone but Bernie' the whole time... Don't patronize me.
  #6  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:05 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882
When they couldn't attack his record, they attacked his supporting base which is in big no-no if you want them to vote your way.
  #7  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:08 AM
Bijou Drains is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 11,156
Probably he cannot beat Trump but maybe Trump will go totally nuts or die or get very sick.
  #8  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:09 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
Probably he cannot beat Trump but maybe Trump will go totally nuts or die or get very sick.
That would be nice.
  #9  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:19 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
Look... I came here to learn what I can say to get people to vote for Biden. Conspiracy my ass. I watched MSNBC this whole election, and they were 'anyone but Bernie' the whole time... Don't patronize me.
Your memory is selective. MSNBC, CNN, etc... All were ready to announce time of death for Biden until SC results and then Super Tuesday comeback.

A self described socialist that was a lifelong independent, running in the Democratic party nomination process, was always going to be controversial. You have to wear blinders not to recognize that the country is more moderate than that. Sanders made his bones on being controversial. You can't cry "establishement" if you spend your political career being anti-establishment.

What you can tell people is that if they don't want 4 more years of Trump, they need to vote Biden. That's it.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #10  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:28 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Your memory is selective. MSNBC, CNN, etc... All were ready to announce time of death for Biden until SC results and then Super Tuesday comeback.

A self described socialist that was a lifelong independent, running in the Democratic party nomination process, was always going to be controversial. You have to wear blinders not to recognize that the country is more moderate than that. Sanders made his bones on being controversial. You can't cry "establishement" if you spend your political career being anti-establishment.

What you can tell people is that if they don't want 4 more years of Trump, they need to vote Biden. That's it.
Well, look....

I didn't come here to fight. I'm NOT the only one who feels this way. The people I know don't feel like Bernie was offered a fair chance, and don't seem to give a crap about 4 more years of Trump. Plus, his supporters were demonized and that pisses people off.

But, I will honestly try my hardest to move their needle a bit.

I wish I lived in a more progressive country. I also worry about Biden and climate change. It doesn't seem like it's a big priority on his list. But he's better than Trump I guess. I guess we're going to have to get used to animals burning alive for a while more.

Last edited by MyFootsZZZ; 03-10-2020 at 09:29 AM.
  #11  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:31 AM
Jophiel's Avatar
Jophiel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Chicago suburbia
Posts: 19,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
A self described socialist that was a lifelong independent, running in the Democratic party nomination process, was always going to be controversial. You have to wear blinders not to recognize that the country is more moderate than that. Sanders made his bones on being controversial. You can't cry "establishement" if you spend your political career being anti-establishment.
Amen. Sanders' whole plan was to take advantage of a split moderate field to grab a plurality of delegates and then claim victory. He never intended to get a majority of Democratic voters to support him. Then, when other moderates realized that running a campaign that is getting 5% is a waste of their energy and resources, it's all a big unfair cheaty conspiracy that they drop out and get behind the best poised moderate. And totally unfair that the media is talking about the guy trying to win the nomination with 30% support.
  #12  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:32 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 37,403
To answer the OP, according to the polling, I believe Biden can beat Trump. That doesn't mean he will, and I think Bernie would be a stronger candidate. But Biden has the lead right now, in polling and in delegates. If everyone who strongly opposes Trump votes for Biden, he'll win easily. Hopefully all these folks will come out and vote, even the ones (like me) who would be disappointed we didn't nominate Bernie.
  #13  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:40 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
To answer the OP, according to the polling, I believe Biden can beat Trump. That doesn't mean he will, and I think Bernie would be a stronger candidate. But Biden has the lead right now, in polling and in delegates. If everyone who strongly opposes Trump votes for Biden, he'll win easily. Hopefully all these folks will come out and vote, even the ones (like me) who would be disappointed we didn't nominate Bernie.
Thanks. I hope so too. I don't see us recovering from 4 more years of Trump. I'm "the voice of reason" in this bunch of people. I'm really trying to look past what I considered to be an unfair process. I don't think we'll recover from 4 more years of Trump.
  #14  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:41 AM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,886
We know what Trump is going to do: turn to his corrupt cabal of Russian sympathizers and trolls to spread lies about Biden being paid off by oligarchs in Ukraine. This is pizzagate level conspiracy here.

I get it that many people are disappointed and don't feel like Biden represents them. It isn't just Bernie people -- talk to Warren supporters, and I think they have a much stronger case that their candidate was treated unfairly.

But the question of what do to in the election should be framed as less about compromising one's principles and voting for Biden while holding one's nose, and more about whether they are going to let Donald Trump lie, cheat, and steal his way to another term.

If blue voters stay home, that's a huge win for the ilk of Roger Stone and Rudy Giuliani, two motherfuckers who should spend the rest of their days in prison. If you want them in jail, vote for the Dem. It is just that simple.
  #15  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:43 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
Wel, look....

I didn't come here to fight. I'm NOT the only one who feels this way. The people I know don't feel like Bernie was offered a fair chance, and don't seem to give a crap about 4 more years of Trump. Plus, his supporters were demonized and that pisses people off.
I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm trying to explain to you that those people are as wrong about Bernie in the same way that Trump voters are wrong about Trump.

I know that sounds upsetting to hear. But it beggars reality to think that someone who stand no chance of achieving the promises he makes should be expected to accomplish those things. The good news is, Democrats are not as naive about Sanders, as the GOP turned out to be about Trump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
But, I will honestly try my hardest to move their needle a bit.
You do what you can. It's not your burden to bear alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
I wish I lived in a more progressive country. I also worry about Biden and climate change. It doesn't seem like it's a big priority on his list. But he's better than Trump I guess.
I wish we lived in a country that was more progressive as well. I support most of Sanders policies as well. But the reality of it is that we live in a country that elected Trump. So it's ridiculous to stare reality in the face and pretend otherwise. People of good conscience who are opposed to Trump must begin to behave in a reasonable and co-operative manner. All other options, including electing a democratic socialist, have been exhausted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
I guess we're going to have to get used to animals burning alive!
Oh, FFS! Can we just not become hysterical? St. Bernie, despite his anointed infallibility, is not going to save all the animals or the environment single handed. Nor will electing Biden condemn it.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #16  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:44 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
We know what Trump is going to do: turn to his corrupt cabal of Russian sympathizers and trolls to spread lies about Biden being paid off by oligarchs in Ukraine. This is pizzagate level conspiracy here.

I get it that many people are disappointed and don't feel like Biden represents them. It isn't just Bernie people -- talk to Warren supporters, and I think they have a much stronger case that their candidate was treated unfairly.

But the question of what do to in the election should be framed as less about compromising one's principles and voting for Biden while holding one's nose, and more about whether they are going to let Donald Trump lie, cheat, and steal his way to another term.

If blue voters stay home, that's a huge win for the ilk of Roger Stone and Rudy Giuliani, two motherfuckers who should spend the rest of their days in prison. If you want them in jail, vote for the Dem. It is just that simple.
Thanks for responding in a understanding way. Warren would have been my second choice.
  #17  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:50 AM
MyFootsZZZ is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm trying to explain to you that those people are as wrong about Bernie in the same way that Trump voters are wrong about Trump.

I know that sounds upsetting to hear. But it beggars reality to think that someone who stand no chance of achieving the promises he makes should be expected to accomplish those things. The good news is, Democrats are not as naive about Sanders, as the GOP turned out to be about Trump.



You do what you can. It's not your burden to bear alone.



I wish we lived in a country that was more progressive as well. I support most of Sanders policies as well. But the reality of it is that we live in a country that elected Trump. So it's ridiculous to stare reality in the face and pretend otherwise. People of good conscience who are opposed to Trump must begin to behave in a reasonable and co-operative manner. All other options, including electing a democratic socialist, have been exhausted.



Oh, FFS! Can we just not become hysterical? St. Bernie, despite his anointed infallibility, is not going to save all the animals or the environment single handed. Nor will electing Biden condemn it.
Ok... So I didn't think Bernie could have done everything. I really just hoped for M4A. I would like free schooling and the like, but I wasn't expecting it. Trump won for different reasons in my opinion. Not because he was super conservative, but because he was a populist.

I know Bernie Sanders can't save the environment all on his own but I think that it's urgent to act fast, and I don't see Biden taking big action that we need.

Last edited by MyFootsZZZ; 03-10-2020 at 09:51 AM.
  #18  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:53 AM
SuntanLotion is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: mentor ohio
Posts: 359
We really won't know til November.
__________________
Gellerreport. Com
  #19  
Old 03-10-2020, 09:54 AM
What Exit?'s Avatar
What Exit? is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Central NJ (near Bree)
Posts: 30,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
When they couldn't attack his record, they attacked his supporting base which is in big no-no if you want them to vote your way.
He's got a pretty decent chance of beating Trump by winning those swing states (mostly mid-west) that Clinton lost on her personality and campaign style. Biden plays well with the blue collar for whatever reason, better than sideshow Donald even. Blue States & Red States will vote just like last time, but those purple states should see enough switch to Biden to give him the electoral & popular vote. But it is really important people come out and vote for Biden even if it is just a vote against Trump.

I like Bernie better than Biden also, but either is a lot better than Trump. All the Dems were better than Trump. A steaming pile of crap is better than 4 more years of Trump and Biden is a lot better than a steaming pile of crap.

If enough anti-Trumpers vote, it might help swing the houses to the Dems so they can try to accomplish something their first two years.
  #20  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:06 AM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
Ok... So I didn't think Bernie could have done everything. I really just hoped for M4A. I would like free schooling and the like, but I wasn't expecting it. Trump won for different reasons in my opinion. Not because he was super conservative, but because he was a populist.

I know Bernie Sanders can't save the environment all on his own but I think that it's urgent to act fast, and I don't see Biden taking big action that we need.
This is where I think Bernie failed. He promised everything. If he'd just stuck to M4A, that would have been a big enough platform, and difficult enough on it's own. But no. He bit off more than he could chew. Certainly more than the lib/prog/dem voters were willing to swallow.

Everybody wants to act fast on the environment. But this is not a problem that will be fixed quickly. Even if the world switched to 100% renewable energy today, and it can't for another 25 years under the best circumstances, things will get worse before they get better.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #21  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:08 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
I get it that many people are disappointed and don't feel like Biden represents them. It isn't just Bernie people -- talk to Warren supporters, and I think they have a much stronger case that their candidate was treated unfairly.
By whom?
  #22  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:09 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the Land of Smiles
Posts: 21,119
We've got to set the country back on a saner course. POTUS can't do it alone; we need control of the Senate and that's more likely with Biden as standard-bearer.

Few of us are getting our 1st choice for nominee. Prepare to push a progressive agenda no matter who is President. As I've explained before, more progress might occur with a moderate President than with a radical. Biden will need a youngish V.P.; let's hope he picks a progressive — Stacey Abrams?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
... his supporters were demonized and that pisses people off....
Who demonized Bernie's supporters and what were the charges?

The one complaint I've heard is that Bernie supporters might not vote D in November. And this charge is so insulting that Bernie supporters might respond by ... not voting D in November?
  #23  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:25 AM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
By whom?
I think the question of whether female candidates were subject to a presumption that they couldn't win is a good one to ask. I don't know that this is the case, but there's a lot more there there than the popular contention that "my favored candidate is subject to a press blackout by those big meanies known as journalists!" which is a line espoused by several campaigns.
  #24  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:25 AM
racepug is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: the State of Columbia
Posts: 1,491
After seeing what's happened in this country in national elections over the last couple of decades I suppose anything's possible. But I'm not getting my hopes up. Joe Biden has absolutely NO message to sell to the U.S. electorate AND he's about as exciting as soggy toilet paper (sound familiar?). Add to that the fact that incumbent presidents don't lose in their attempt for a 2nd term very often and. . .as much I'll hate to see it, I'm expecting another four years of the Mango Moron in the W.H.
  #25  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:35 AM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 10,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
Look... I came here to learn what I can say to get people to vote for Biden. Conspiracy my ass. I watched MSNBC this whole election, and they were 'anyone but Bernie' the whole time... Don't patronize me.
Only because I live in a small Wisconsin city, where votes really matter, and I have neighbors whom will vote for Biden in November, but if the socialist Bernie is the nominee, they will stay home (and a few will vote for Trump).

I would love to have Bernie (or someone with his priorities) be president. What I want DOESN’T MATTER.

Almost everyone on MSNBC would, personally, love to have Bernie (or someone with his priorities) be president. What they want DOESN’T MATTER.

What matters is that they (and I) help to make sure Bernie isn’t the nominee, BECAUSE ALL THAT MATTERS I WHETHER MY NEIGHBORS VOTE FOR TRUMP
IN NOVEMBER, OR NOT.

Not me. Probably not you. Probably not your neighbors (correct me if I’m wrong about your location). MY neighbors, and about two hundred thousand people like them, AND NO ONE ELSE.

That’s how our system works. It sucks, but THAT’S HOW IT WORKS.
  #26  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:41 AM
TheNarwhal is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 1
I have no real problem with Bernie. His failure to get the youth vote to turn out in sufficient numbers for him to win on Super Tuesday makes me seriously doubt that he'd be the best candidate for the general election, but I also don't buy that he would have doomed us to four more years of Trump. Fifty-fifty, perhaps, with the possibility of significant movement in either direction depending on what happens during the general election campaign. I agree with him on many things, probably more than I agree with Joe Biden on. I like Joe, too, but he wouldn't have been my top pick.

All that said, I severely disagree that Bernie Sanders was treated unfairly. The DNC changed the rules explicitly to accommodate him after 2016 (reporting initial and final popular vote in caucuses instead of only delegate count to optimize his chances of getting a boost out of Iowa, dramatically reducing the impact of superdelegates, and probably other rules changes I'm forgetting). From what I see in your post, your main complaint seems to be with MSNBC. This is not a wing of the Democratic party: it is a news channel. Newscasters are entitled to their opinions, the same as you. If you don't like what they say, hold THEM accountable, not the Democratic party.

Did the party coalesce around Joe Biden? Yes, but only after rank-and-file black voters in South Carolina made it clear that he was their pick. Notice that major party leaders Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, etc. have all refrained from endorsing anyone, and many others held back until very recently, in the interest of letting the primary play itself out with as little interference as possible. This is how primaries are supposed to work. This is how the machinery is set up. If anything, the party went out of their way to make sure Sanders had a fair shot.

Political parties are not an official part of government. The founding fathers were actually concerned and disturbed by the idea that they might form, and shift the functioning of democracy away from their original vision (for the record, they absolutely have, though it happened almost immediately after the nation's founding, not recently). As such, primaries are not an official government function, but rather a process conducted by the parties, for the parties. The aim is to pick a nominee who is best to serve the interests of the party. Obviously, given the huge impact parties have, it IS fair and good for them to keep primaries as democratic as possible, but at the same time they really have no obligation to do so if it doesn't suit them. Bernie got a fair shake, and he didn't manage to win. Neither did Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and you don't hear their supporters whining about it, or at least not nearly as much.

As for a positive argument to Bernie voters in favor of Joe Biden, perhaps consider that Bernie Sanders, as a senator who caucuses with the Democrats, would actually have a voice in a Biden administration, especially if Democrats win the senate. Joe Biden winning would also mean a Democrat VP, which makes winning the senate much more likely, as well. How many laws has Sanders had the opportunity to pass under Trump? How many do you think he can get through if Trump gets another four years and Republicans keep the senate majority? Whatever his personal positions, Joe Biden will be at least moderately responsive to people like Sanders and Warren and AOC. If Sanders voters turn out and vote more progressives into congress, giving them a larger bloc and more leverage, then even moreso. If a Green New Deal, or a bill for student loan forgiveness, or for universal healthcare, comes across Biden's desk, he'll almost certainly sign it into law. What do you think Trump would do, given that there's not a snowball's chance in hell of Democrats holding a large enough majority to override a veto?
  #27  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:42 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
I know a lot of Bernie supporters that SAY they're choosing to vote for the green party because they don't feel Bernie got a fair shake.
Not directed at you, but people who are voting green are doing so out of spite. They're angry. I've argued before that this country needs a little more rage, but it can't be blind rage; it has to be focused on the right targets. The Republicans and Trump are very close to rigging the judiciary to the point that even if a Bernie-like candidate comes around in 4 years, he'd have the entire judiciary to work through even if he somehow won the race. I'd urge your friends to think about who gains from this. Nobody.

But as much as I genuinely do respect and appreciate Sanders the senator, this is why I find his candidacies for presidency problematic, going back to 2015-16. He's a rage candidate, but he attracts blind rage more than the more focused type of outrage that we really need and would benefit from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
I agree he didn't get a fair shake,
My God, what more do you want? He essentially won the first three races. He had opportunities. He just couldn't close, and the reason he couldn't was due to the fact that he has repeatedly failed to show any interest in running anything other than a protest campaign. Voters want results, and the most important result they want is someone who can appeal to a wider audience. Bernie simply doesn't. It's pretty simple: if you can't win the party nomination, logically, it follows that you're going to have a more challenging time against the incumbent from the other party. What some of voters seem to be advocating is the very thing they're "protesting": they have concluded without any evidence whatsoever that Bernie would just somehow be a better match-up against Trump, and they want the DNC to install Bernie. Irony, much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
Go ahead and gloat that Bernie probably won't win, that's just going to discourage people more. It's horse crap. How do I talk to the other Bernie supporters, and encourage them to vote Biden? I can't blame them for being mad. I'm mad. I don't want to have anything to do with this crud. The establishment wants me not to have a voice, so why bother?
Voting is a matter of civic duty, and more often than not, it really is a choice between the lesser of two evils, not the ideal candidate. Always choose the lesser of two evils, or accept that you will certainly get the greater evil for another 4 years. It's that simple.
  #28  
Old 03-10-2020, 10:46 AM
Lance Turbo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuntanLotion View Post
We really won't know til November.
No point talking about then.
  #29  
Old 03-10-2020, 11:27 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the Land of Smiles
Posts: 21,119
Who. When in doubt, 'Who.' Who, goldarn it.

Write 'who' when 'whom' is more correct, and nobody will notice. Do the reverse, however, and you come across as thinking you're better than your hard-working semi-literate red-neck neighbors, and are trying to sound like left-wing cosmopolitan elite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKellyMap View Post
... I have neighbors whom will vote for Biden in November ...
That does it! I'm voting for Trump.
  #30  
Old 03-10-2020, 11:37 AM
Ashtura is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,795
M4A isn't happening even if Bernie wins. It's really not a good reason to vote for him.
  #31  
Old 03-10-2020, 11:37 AM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 10,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Who. When in doubt, 'Who.' Who, goldarn it.

Write 'who' when 'whom' is more correct, and nobody will notice. Do the reverse, however, and you come across as thinking you're better than your hard-working semi-literate red-neck neighbors, and are trying to sound like left-wing cosmopolitan elite.


That does it! I'm voting for Trump.
Heh. Typos and autocorrects have no boundaries.
  #32  
Old 03-10-2020, 11:41 AM
Johnny L.A. is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NoWA
Posts: 62,593
Recent political cartoon:

Two donkeys are sitting at a bar, looking shocked. Nearby is a Bernie Sanders supporter. The Sanders supporter is saying, 'I'm not voting for your nominee if it's not Bernie... And it'll be your fault Trump remains president.'
  #33  
Old 03-10-2020, 12:07 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 12,537
Going back to the original question, can Biden beat Trump? I think that, under the right circumstances, he can. Will he? It's going to be tough, but if Bernie's the nominee, I think retaking the White House would be even tougher.

I have my own concerns about Biden, and not just his age and meandering speeches. It's fair to question whether he'd be an effective president, and I think reporters and voters have a right to start asking him some hard questions, like what he does if McConnell filibusters key legislation. What does he do if the SCOTUS strikes down the ACA, thereby rendering any expansion of said legislation moot? These are fair questions to ask, and as much as I support Biden, he's not even been asked these questions let alone answered them.

I'm not a Biden fanboy, but I call it like I see it, and the country is not nearly as sold on Bernie's ideas as his supporters want them to be. I mean I get it - if you're 28 and just coming out of a grad program underemployed and burdened with six figure debt in a world that is increasingly being automated, you're scared shitless, and angry at the same time. I get that. I still think that Bernie's voters will matter to Biden; they don't mean shit to Trump - that's the point, and that's what I would tell Sanders supporters who are toying with the idea of spiting Biden should he get elected. They'd ultimately be spiting themselves.
  #34  
Old 03-10-2020, 12:42 PM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 85,103
Here's what you tell disappointed Bernie Sanders supporters.

1. Regardless of what your feelings are about the other candidates, look at your feelings about Donald Trump. And then take the chance to vote him out of office.

2. Remind them that a lot of disappointed supporters of other candidates were willing to vote for Sanders when he was the front runner and looked like he would be the nominee.

3. If you feel both parties are broken, then take this chance to send a warning to them. Vote to remove somebody who has failed in order to remind other politicians, Democrats and Republicans, that they will be removed from office if they do a bad job.

4. Think about the future of the progressive movement. If young people decide to sit out this election, either by not voting or by voting for some third party, then both parties will ignore them. The only way you will affect the political process is if you participate in it.
  #35  
Old 03-10-2020, 12:51 PM
JKellyMap's Avatar
JKellyMap is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 10,336
Nicely put, Little Nemo. You are a more patient person than I am, and I’ll use your post as a template.
  #36  
Old 03-10-2020, 01:02 PM
Johnny L.A. is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: NoWA
Posts: 62,593
Little Nemo: Sharing.
  #37  
Old 03-10-2020, 01:17 PM
dalej42 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 16,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Here's what you tell disappointed Bernie Sanders supporters.

1. Regardless of what your feelings are about the other candidates, look at your feelings about Donald Trump. And then take the chance to vote him out of office.

2. Remind them that a lot of disappointed supporters of other candidates were willing to vote for Sanders when he was the front runner and looked like he would be the nominee.

3. If you feel both parties are broken, then take this chance to send a warning to them. Vote to remove somebody who has failed in order to remind other politicians, Democrats and Republicans, that they will be removed from office if they do a bad job.

4. Think about the future of the progressive movement. If young people decide to sit out this election, either by not voting or by voting for some third party, then both parties will ignore them. The only way you will affect the political process is if you participate in it.
I’d also add, ‘Enough with the conspiracies.’ Face reality. The DNC or ‘corporate media establishment’ or anyone isn’t conspiring to take down Sanders.
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42 He/Him/His
  #38  
Old 03-10-2020, 01:49 PM
UltraVires is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,768
The key to beating Trump is coming up with an effective response to his usual playbook, but nobody has done it yet. In fact, every opponent of his plays right into it. You can read his book "The Art of the Deal" to see how it is done. Trump says something outlandish, trolls the shit out of people, gets outsized media coverage for it, rolls back his statement claiming that the media distorted what he said and takes a reasonable position. His opponents, blinded by their hate of him, take a harsher position against him which lets him win by default as now being the mainstream.

Take illegal immigration as one example. What does Average Joe Undecided Voter think about illegal immigration? Well, first, he's against it. He understands that as a sovereign country we have to protect our borders and that there has to be some immigration controls. He doesn't like having a bunch of illegal aliens in his town, but does admire the work ethic and the sense of family that those people have, working hard for peanuts outside of Home Depot, for example. He certainly feels bad about those who were brought here as children and doesn't support rounding them up. In short, he is very much against it, but it is not something he is ready to start neighborhood sweeps over. "Something" needs done, but he doesn't really think about what that is. That's the voter you are after.

In 2015, that voter is very much in line with the Democratic Party's position. Every politician of any stripe has a stated position on immigration, but I'll be damned if I remember what they were. Then Trump, at the time just a regular politician, comes along and says that a wall has to be built and that the Mexicans coming here are rapists, murderers, and drug dealers. That's the trolling part, but everyone bites on it.

Days and weeks of media coverage ensue where Trump then says that he was (and if you look at his words he was) only saying that some, some of these people are bad and that the overwhelming majority are good people who just want a better life for themselves.

At that point, the Dems should have said something along the lines of, well, after hearing Mr. Trump's clarifying remarks, it is clear that he believes what everyone else does, so why are we all paying attention to him?

But nope, they continue to feed his media narrative and emphasize his trolling. They cannot agree with his rather obvious and mundane statement. If the attention starts to die down, Trump will stoke the flames: deport all 11 million illegals (eventually, if they are caught); the wall just got ten feet higher (and btw it won't be a wall in a sense, it will be fencing where needed and not in places impractical to build).

They have to respond to his name calling and the "woke" environment and their hatred of Trump won't permit them to allow his racial characterizations to go unchallenged. They keep feeding him. And they want to challenge him so much that they take extreme positions so as not to be anything like Trump: eliminate ICE, have sanctuary cites, free health care for illegals, no more deportations

Pre-Trump you had the Average Voter on your side; now he is on Trump's side. And you allowed a neophyte politician to control the media narrative on the issue.

Rinse and repeat with every other issue. Trump does this continuously, and the vile hatred of him, as shown on this board, is all part of his plan. Let me repeat, the name calling and the hatred of him by those on this board, who were not voting for him in any event, is part of his plan.

Once the left understands that, then they can beat him.
  #39  
Old 03-10-2020, 01:56 PM
That Don Guy's Avatar
That Don Guy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
I know a lot of Bernie supporters that SAY they're choosing to vote for the green party because they don't feel Bernie got a fair shake.
You want to help stop that?

Show them this, and tell them to replace "Nader" with "Green Party" in the last panel.
  #40  
Old 03-10-2020, 01:57 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,886
Seems to me the people being trolled by Trump's antics aren't his critics, but his supporters. They are the ones actually listening to his bullshit.
  #41  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:05 PM
UltraVires is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Seems to me the people being trolled by Trump's antics aren't his critics, but his supporters. They are the ones actually listening to his bullshit.
Even he doesn't listen to his own bullshit. Stay with illegal immigration. Is there a wall? Have there been mass deportations? Have Dreamers been deported?

All Trump has done is basically what every other president has done, but tightened a few policies here or there. All within the political mainstream. If a voter is looking at that, he or she sees Trump's immigration policy as most in line with their views. Certainly not the sanctuary city/abolish ICE platform that the Dems have only adopted because of Trump?

Who again is getting trolled?
  #42  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:06 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Who again is getting trolled?
Once again, more slowly now... Trump voters.
  #43  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:17 PM
Ashtura is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,795
I really think how the Coronavirus (and subsequently, the economy) plays out is going to be the difference between Trump winning or losing. If it's mostly settled down by November (which I have serious doubts about), I think Trump will likely win.
  #44  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:27 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
All Trump has done is basically what every other president has done...
You've not been paying attention.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #45  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:31 PM
UltraVires is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 16,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Once again, more slowly now... Trump voters.
Just repeating it doesn't support your position. Do you have any substance to add?

How are we being trolled? We get a Republican in office who does Republican things down the line, Supreme Court justices and the like, and Trump has trolled you guys so bad that you were close to nominating a socialist.

More to the point of the thread, Trump has also made Biden think that his key to winning is being a tough guy like Trump. It's not working:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-a...-full-of-shit/

You don't respond to a voter with a legitimate concern that he is "full of shit" that you are "going to go out and slap [him] in the face" and that he is a "horse's ass." Did the voter insult Biden's family?

Nope, just worried that Joe will take his AR-15 away, which Joe, on his own website says he will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe30202
Joe Biden will enact legislation to once again ban assault weapons.
https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/
  #46  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:32 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the Land of Smiles
Posts: 21,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
I’d also add, ‘Enough with the conspiracies.’ Face reality. The DNC or ‘corporate media establishment’ or anyone isn’t conspiring to take down Sanders.
+++
The infatuation ignorant people have with "conspiracies" is misplaced.
The "Deep State"? Somebody sure forgot to tell James Comey he was part of the Deep State when he tossed the 2016 election to Trump.
The DNC? Get back to us when you have evidence those people can even tie their own shoelaces.

If these secret cabals had even one-tenth the power that conspiracy theorists think they have, the world might be a much better place!
  #47  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:32 PM
QuickSilver's Avatar
QuickSilver is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
I really think how the Coronavirus (and subsequently, the economy) plays out is going to be the difference between Trump winning or losing. If it's mostly settled down by November (which I have serious doubts about), I think Trump will likely win.
By November, CV-19 will be a distant memory and Trump will be doing victory laps because the stock market will have recovered some. I hope whatever investigations are being conducted by NY southern district and the various house committees start producing results that expose Trump's, corrupt schemes, financials and taxes. This isn't over by a long shot.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #48  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:38 PM
Ashtura is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
By November, CV-19 will be a distant memory and Trump will be doing victory laps because the stock market will have recovered some. I hope whatever investigations are being conducted by NY southern district and the various house committees start producing results that expose Trump's, corrupt schemes, financials and taxes. This isn't over by a long shot.
If the needle hasn't moved by any non-kitchen-table issues by now, they never will. People of all stripes dying and losing their jobs and money over a recession is one factor that I think could do it. I HOPE that covid-19 and any associated economic downturn is a distant memory in November, but I could easily be wrong on that one.
  #49  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:44 PM
Steve MB is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 13,589
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ View Post
I didn't say I wasn't going to vote. Did you read my post?? And if the media didn't crap on Bernie and scare us in to thinking only an establishment candidate could win against Trump, I would think would beat Trump big time.
Listen to this recording of Trish Regan "explaining" that the markets would be doing just fine if the media weren't conspiring to crap on Trump. Then, start some detective work on how you and she came to be separated at birth.
__________________
The Internet: Nobody knows if you're a dog. Everybody knows if you're a jackass.
  #50  
Old 03-10-2020, 02:49 PM
MortSahlFan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: US
Posts: 784
There's no way Biden could win.. If he gets the nomination, millions will sit home, and in the general, we'll see all those videos (seems like every day) of Biden abusing his "supporters", telling his female aide today to "SHUSH"... Didn't treat Anita Hill well, either.

Joe Biden supported:
- Iraq War
- NAFTA
- PNTR w China
- Patriot act
- TPP
- Repeal Glass Steagall
- War on drugs
- Wall st bailout
- anti-gay DOMA

He opposes:
- legal pot
- wealth tax
- medicare for all
- free college
- canceling student debt

While Trumpers would still vote for him, even if he shot someone on 5th avenue... They seem more determined than ever, and I don't see those #NeverTrumpers.. When Trump is attacked, they defend him (when they are actually defending themselves, their ego)...

If you want to get rid of Trump, vote for Bernie.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017